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Carl Icahn says he'll consider shareholder proxy vote if Apple rejects his buyback plan - Page 4

post #121 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

What a piece of shit this fuckwad is.

"The billionaire investor believes that a change may be necessary on the board, and he'd prefer to see someone with an investor's point of view providing input at the company. However, Icahn said he's not interested in such a role."

Yeah, no. How the **** would anyone with an "investors point of view" actually have the capability to provide input that is constructive to Apple's long-term success and product quality? What a mind-numbingly short-sighted scum bag this guy is. Apple didn't get to where it is today by following the "investor" point of view. It got to where it is by ignoring almost all of it.

This echo's my sentiments exactly!

 

Who here thinks he's not just trying to make a quick buck at the expense of Apple and doesn't care if it kills them in the process?

 

This douchebag needs to disappear! I'd take Warren Buffett's word over this guy any day, and he says Apple's current strategy and buy-back program, under Cook's stewardship is the right way to go!

 

Icahn can go shove it where the sun don't shine and STFU!

post #122 of 153
In other words, "I have purchased a whole bunch of your company's shares, and now I want to force you to blow your whole savings to make me even richer". Now is a bad time for a share buyback, because AAPL has been quite strong recently. AAPL should wait for when the stock weakens for the next round of buybacks. Besides which, AAPL can't use its foreign assets for a share buyback, so it would lose a large portion of its assets to taxes to do this, or else spend a fortune in borrowing costs, which would hurt the company's bottom line in the long term. Icahn is known to be a predator who is interested only in his own bottom line.
post #123 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

Good point.  But neither Tim nor the Board of Directors own Apple.  The shareholders do and they have a right to demand a captial allocation plan that benefits shareholder value.

First of all, this notion that 'shareholders own the company' is an urban myth.

http://www.directorship.com/stout-shareholders-as-owners/
Quote:
The answer is: No, shareholders do not own the corporation. Rather, they own (or in some cases, temporarily hold) a type of security commonly called stock. Both corporate law and economic reasoning support the limited nature of this ownership, and also undermine the claim that directors should always strive to maximize shareholder value.

When you buy company, you do so in the hope of a return; there is no legal requirement that states you're entitled to it. You do not get partial ownership in the company; you get the chance to earn some money if the company does well. What you have in your eager hands is a lottery ticket, and having a lottery ticket doesn't mean you own a piece of Camelot, and owning shares, despite the name, doesn't mean you own a piece of Apple.

Secondly, it is entirely possible that Apple has a plan for the cash, but chooses to keep it under wraps to maintain a competitive advantage.

What could they possibly need with all that cash? How about their own high-speed comms network for starters.

Having said that, I'd vote for a buyback if it would eventually take the company private. Since this wouldn't happen, I'd vote against.

And I'm perfectly happy for Tim to keep stringing this shyster along with lunch dates if it helps the stock price (as long as Icahn is picking up the meal tab).


But anything that would get the leeches off the company's back would automatically get my vote.
Edited by Rayz - 10/24/13 at 9:37pm
post #124 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

What a piece of shit this fuckwad is.

"The billionaire investor believes that a change may be necessary on the board, and he'd prefer to see someone with an investor's point of view providing input at the company. However, Icahn said he's not interested in such a role."

Yeah, no. How the **** would anyone with an "investors point of view" actually have the capability to provide input that is constructive to Apple's long-term success and product quality? What a mind-numbingly short-sighted scum bag this guy is. Apple didn't get to where it is today by following the "investor" point of view. It got to where it is by ignoring almost all of it.


Well said. I will vote against what he proposes.
post #125 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post
 

Perhaps Lauren Jobs should write an 'Open Letter' to Tim pointing out she owns 8% of Apple's shares and damn sight more than Icahn and urge him not to give the greedy prick the time of day.

 

Bill Gross, manager of the world’s largest mutual fund, said fellow billionaire investor Carl Icahn should stop pushing Apple Inc. (AAPL) for additional share buybacks.

“Icahn should leave Apple alone and spend more time like Bill Gates,” Gross, who runs the $250 billion Pimco Total Return Fund (PTTRX) at Pacific Investment Management Co. in Newport Beach, California, wrote in a message on Twitter today. “If Icahn’s so smart, use it to help people not yourself.”

 

Bravo Bill!

I sincerely wish more people like Bill Gross speak up against this scumbag and give him a crystal clear FU! Better still, I hope some of the devoted and intelligent shareholders of AAPL band together and sue Carl before he goes any further! Don't know if there's any legal grounds to initiate a lawsuit at this juncture, but it would be nice to send that bastard a proactive message!

post #126 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

They would float a bond not get cash from overseas.

Hey, how about you just cash in your AAPL shares and piss off along with Carl?! People like you are the reason good companies go under, and world economies crash.

 

World doesn't need anymore Wall Scum crackheads running things.

post #127 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

That took almost 20 years... Icahn(t) wants Apple to buy back ⅓ of the company in one day! Apple is already purchasing $100 billion over the next few years, why can't this moron be happy with that? If you don't like the way the company is being run, why the f@#k did he invest in the first place?


He doesn't give a sh!t about Apple, h
e is obviously just trying to grab as much cash from APPL as he can.

Sorry folks, but wish Apple's stock would completely tank to the point that Apple could buy back all their shares and take the company private. This market/investor crap is just getting stupid as far as Apple is concerned and really needs to be taken out of the equation.

He care about Apple only until he cashes out. There rest of the shareholders will end up owning a company with $150 billion in debt. If we have just one economic downturn the shareholders will lose along with Apple.
post #128 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by generalkurtz View Post

this is one of the reasons why american market is the most efficient market in the world. if the management doesn't fix the problem, activist shareholders will force them to...

now you can't be sitting on $150B and do nothing about it while it grows. you can't just watch... what is the opportunity cost of that money? it is a lot... apple and shareholders are losing money!

they should have used it to do value adding acquisitions. for example a twitter acquisition would have brought a very nice diversification to apple's offerings. we would not just talk about iPads and iPhones but we would talk about social media, twitter, online advertising as well!

but since they have no clue about how to use that money, the market will educate them.

so folks, all is healthy! don't worry... this will be good for apple and its shareholders. market is doing its magic. that's all!

Do you drive with blinders on as well?

 

You're saying Apple, one of the MOST successful companies in the whole freaking WORLD doesn't know how to use their liquid capital? Due tell, do you have a little insider puppet at Apple telling you that Tim Cook and his staff don't intend on doing anything over the next 5+ years with those funds?

 

Apple should be adding value to their products, which in turn add value to their customers, in the end resulting in value to the shareholders. Without value on the consumer-side of the equation, there won't be didly-squat of value for the shareholders.

 

And as for the market, give me a big fucking break!!! The market, lead by a bunch of thieves like Goldman Sachs and the former Lehman Brothers, are the reason our markets / economies crashed in 2008! And you're saying these shills should educate APPLE?!

 

I hope the moderators here BAN YOU FOR LIFE, and that you NEVER own any AAPL shares!

post #129 of 153
Amazing how angry some of you get over this story, and its comments.
Edited by Crowley - 10/25/13 at 3:16am

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post #130 of 153

all this BS has come about since Steve passed away, so my take on this is that SJ would probably get at least one call a week from some Wall St bigwig, he told his secretary.....don't patch through any of these calls.

So SJ got a reputation on Wall St as being totally unapproachable (even if Oppenheimer wanted to talk to Wall St, SJ being the boss just got his way).

I look at Tim Cook and I just don't see someone with that '****-you' attitude SJ had, Wall St knows this and the dam begins to get cracks.....

post #131 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagMan1979 View Post
 

Hey jerk off, how about you just cash in your AAPL shares and piss off along with Carl?! Dipshits like you are the reason good companies go under, and world economies crash.

 

World doesn't need anymore Wall Scum crackheads like you running things.

 

your true colors come out here.

Look the guy said that a $150B will cause Apple to run out of money which is totally false.  They would just float a bond LIKE THEY DID JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO.

 

You are too emotional about Apple.  You need to keep emotion out of the equation when you are an investor.  The fact is in 5 years Apple will have over $450B if they don't increase the buyback.  If there is no clear plan to use the excess cash shareholders are literally losing over $40B a year just from opportunity cost alone. 

 

A buyback is investing in yourself.  What other company should Apple invest in instead of Apple? 

post #132 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodbine View Post
 

all this BS has come about since Steve passed away, so my take on this is that SJ would probably get at least one call a week from some Wall St bigwig, he told his secretary.....don't patch through any of these calls.

So SJ got a reputation on Wall St as being totally unapproachable (even if Oppenheimer wanted to talk to Wall St, SJ being the boss just got his way).

I look at Tim Cook and I just don't see someone with that '****-you' attitude SJ had, Wall St knows this and the dam begins to get cracks.....

 

You need to play the game. PERIOD.  Sorry its a fact of life when you are a public company AND THE BIGGEST PUBLIC COMPANY in the world.  Literally hundreds of millions of peoples retirement are tied to Apple.  Maybe Steve could ignore Wall Street in the past but Apple was a MUCH SMALLER company those days.  I don't think even Steve could totally ignore Wall Street with a $500B company.

 

Bottom line is every since the buyback plans were revealed the stocked moved from 380 to 530.  That's almost a 40% jump.  Why?  Did earnings blow away expectations? No. New product lines?  No.  The main reason is because Apple showed they were going to be more shareholder friendly.

post #133 of 153
So this so called Titan of investing believes that Apple should borrow 150 billion to buy back stock and says it would make sense because they have 147 billion in the bank.
Wow! That is some dumb ass sh**.
Half of Apples wealth comes from a phone; so how long do you expect that honeymoon to last.
Carl is sick. I thought it was a joke. Apparently not.
post #134 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccherry View Post

So this so called Titan of investing believes that Apple should borrow 150 billion to buy back stock and says it would make sense because they have 147 billion in the bank.
Wow! That is some dumb ass sh**.
Half of Apples wealth comes from a phone; so how long do you expect that honeymoon to last.
Carl is sick. I thought it was a joke. Apparently not.

 

I expect phones to last at least 10 more years if not more.  You are acting as if Apple is a company that is about to die.  You do realize that Apple generates $50B of free cash flows a year?  By the end of the year they will have $180B in cash.  In 3 years it will be $330B.

 

Bottom line is the stock is ridiculously cheap RIGHT NOW.  They should take advantage of it.  Personally I'd say a $100B buyback is more reasonable. 

post #135 of 153
Originally Posted by Lord Amhran View Post
Will it exist as it stands now? No, most likely not.

 

That would be why I put it in quotes.

 

Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
Any particular reasoning behind this absurd claim?

 

Common sense.

 
P.S. Apple never filed for bankruptcy. 

 

Doy. And this somehow invalidates my statement? Nice try.

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #136 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

By the end of the year they will have $180B in cash.  In 3 years it will be $330B.

Bottom line is the stock is ridiculously cheap RIGHT NOW.  They should take advantage of it.  Personally I'd say a $100B buyback is more reasonable.

The cash they have is included with their valuation though. Given that they are valued at $480b right now with I think $123b in assets after liabilities, if they manage to build up another $150b assets, surely that increases their valuation a bit, even though future earnings will have been taken account of to an extent. They might still be valued at $480b if they have $273b in cash but I suspect it would be higher if their earnings kept up. They'd be able to buy back over 50% of their shares with that amount of money if the stock price didn't go up and whatever group of people they awarded the shares to would have complete control over the company.

Buying back the shares helps shareholders who don't sell but it's not much benefit to the company. The share price will go up the more assets they have. Doing a buyback depletes their assets and they have to earn that money back again or their value drops.

AAPL is not undervalued right now. Some people seem to think they should be valued at double the richest oil company despite their revenues coming in below them.

What would work best for Apple IMO is to have investors that are interested in Apple's long term future than short-term profit. Perhaps they could setup some sort of mutual fund and every time an Apple customer buys an Apple product above a certain value, they'd get the option to have an entry into the mutual fund. They wouldn't have to be awarded whole shares as those fluctuate in price but at the time of purchase, their allocation could be worth $100. If the mutual fund increased in value, the customers would benefit.

Apple has over 200 million unit sales per year and 50% of their shares are worth $240b. That's $1200 per unit. So $100 per purchase is enough for 12 purchases before half their shares are spread among customers. Someone who buys an iPhone, an iPad, and a Mac could get a $300 entry into the mutual fund. The actual value could depend on the product bought.

This mutual fund would be the majority shareholder and then the customers who love Apple products would be in control of the company. Not only that, the customers would get a financial reward as they'd get dividend payments that could come in the form of iTunes credit. There could be a condition that they can't sell the shares in a given time period e.g 10 years.
post #137 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Common sense.
Common sense that people will stop talking to and being interested in each other within the next ten years? No chance. It's conceivable that Facebook might die and Twitter might burn out, but they'll be replaced with other networks just like then replaced Myspace and Friendster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Doy. And this somehow invalidates my statement? Nice try.
I never said it invalidated anything, you're very sensitive. I just thought, since you're so hot on exposing "lies" round here, that you probably don't want to be saying untrue things.

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post #138 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

your true colors come out here.

Look the guy said that a $150B will cause Apple to run out of money which is totally false.  They would just float a bond LIKE THEY DID JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO.

 

You are too emotional about Apple.  You need to keep emotion out of the equation when you are an investor.  The fact is in 5 years Apple will have over $450B if they don't increase the buyback.  If there is no clear plan to use the excess cash shareholders are literally losing over $40B a year just from opportunity cost alone. 

 

A buyback is investing in yourself.  What other company should Apple invest in instead of Apple? 

What other company? Tons of them.  Some flagship Apple products were purchased from other companies.  I think they've spent their money well over the years.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitions_by_Apple

 

And what's going to happen after the vulture investors move on to the next company after unloading inflated Apple stock?  Long term, they stand to lose a hell of a lot more than $40 billion.

post #139 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

I expect phones to last at least 10 more years if not more.  You are acting as if Apple is a company that is about to die.  You do realize that Apple generates $50B of free cash flows a year?  By the end of the year they will have $180B in cash.  In 3 years it will be $330B.

 

Let's be honest.  All tech companies are one misstep away from losing prominence.  Look at RIM.  They basically created the smartphone market (the blackberry was the iPhone at the turn of the century).  When more feature rich phones came along, they failed to adapt.  Now they're a joke.  Nokia is stuck making Windows phones.  IBM couldn't adapt to the new corporate IT paradigm and lost their shirts to Dell.  HP hired a dud CEO (Fiorina) and look at them now.

 

Will any of this happen to Apple?  Who knows?  Maybe this will be their misstep.  Maybe not doing it will be.  

post #140 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
Bottom line is every since the buyback plans were revealed the stocked moved from 380 to 530.  That's almost a 40% jump.  Why?  Did earnings blow away expectations? No. New product lines?  No.  The main reason is because Apple showed they were going to be more shareholder friendly.

 

Apple introduced the 5s and 5c on Sept 12, AAPL @ $ 472, and the stock took a slight drop into the weekend and then dropped to $450 on the following Monday. AAPL was slightly oversold at that point and buying picked up. That Friday the stock had risen $17 that week to $467 and 3 days later it announced that 9 million phones had been sold. AAPL jumped $22 to $489. Things leveled off but then Tim announced that revenue would be at the high end of the forecast. The stock again started going north. Then it was announced that there would be an event on October 22nd. the stock kept going north. ... and then the new iPads etc. were introduced. Lots and lots of things were moving the stock north.

 

So, please, don't say that nothing eventful happened. It just aint true.


Edited by island hermit - 10/25/13 at 6:42pm
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post #141 of 153
This guy is not a fuckwad, a share buy back is a nofuckingbrainer, apple is not using the cash and the share price is stupidlyfuckinglow. Jobs was a notorious wall st. hater because they fired his ass and so Apple has maintained an anti-wall.st pov in honor of Jobs, but its nonsense. There is absolutely nothing better AAPL can do with $150B than repurchase shares until the stock is over $900. Every share they purchase is being bought from the person most willing to sell it, which is a benefit to every share holder. And AAPL is not a bank. If they want to hold such high cash balances, they should register with FINRA and become a bank.
post #142 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

your true colors come out here.
Look the guy said that a $150B will cause Apple to run out of money which is totally false.  They would just float a bond LIKE THEY DID JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO.

You are too emotional about Apple.  You need to keep emotion out of the equation when you are an investor.  The fact is in 5 years Apple will have over $450B if they don't increase the buyback.  If there is no clear plan to use the excess cash shareholders are literally losing over $40B a year just from opportunity cost alone. 

A buyback is investing in yourself.  What other company should Apple invest in instead of Apple? 
Your true colours also come out just in a much more sinister and idiotic way, because you've basically admitted to not caring how the company is actually run, so long as it looks after making its shareholders rich. And you keep claiming Apple has "no clear plan" on how to use their cash, do you have any clue how fucking stupid that makes you sound? It makes you sound like one of those Wall Strreet douchebag analysts who continually think they know Apple, their supply chains, finances, and sales better than they do, yet at EVERY turn they're proven WRONG!

And you're damn right I'm emotional here, but not about Apple. I'm emotional against people like you who would see companies such as Apple fail at the drop of a hat, if it meant you and your cohorts could make a quick, big buck off their demise. You don't give a shit about anyone or anything but yourself and your bank account.

Go back to Wall Street where you belong. Hope Tim Cook writes an open letter to Carl and you with a big **** OFF in the body.
post #143 of 153
Originally Posted by evolutionXXVII View Post
There is absolutely nothing better AAPL can do with $150B than repurchase shares until the stock is owned by no one but them.

 

Fixed.

 

But you’re completely wrong about everything else.

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #144 of 153
Apple cannot own itself TS. That's a legal impossibility. As a company, people need to own Apple. It's possible (though highly unlikely given the amount of money involved) that a person or group of people can buy enough to take complete control and delist the company from the NASDAQ, but there will always be one or more shareholders. No one at Apple is rich enough to buy anywhere near a controlling share in Apple, let alone outright ownership.

Stop posting nonsense now please.

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post #145 of 153
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
Apple cannot own itself TS. That's a legal impossibility.

 

Enough with the persnickety semantics. I don’t give a flying frick what your vendetta is.

 

You know exactly what I mean when I say, “Apple should buy up all of its shares.”

Originally posted by Relic

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post #146 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

You know exactly what I mean when I say, “Apple should buy up all of its shares.”

They have to give those shares to people, which would in turn make them very wealthy. If they buy back 50% of their shares and say give it out to staff, they'd be distributing over $200 billion between about 50,000 people ($4m each). A lot of them would just retire. They could have conditions on them such as having to work for at least 10-20 years before cashing in though.

If they just take them off the table, it increases the value of the shares of the people who still have them. In other words, making the likes of Icahn much more wealthy with more say in how the company is run.
post #147 of 153
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
If they just take them off the table, it increases the value of the shares of the people who still have them. In other words, making the likes of Icahn much more wealthy with more say in how the company is run.

 

But doesn’t he want them to take his shares? I can’t imagine he demands a buyback for charity’s sake. :lol: 

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #148 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

But doesn’t he want them to take his shares? I can’t imagine he demands a buyback for charity’s sake. lol.gif

The buyback increases the value of his shares so he profits by selling them to someone else. He doesn't want Apple to buy back his shares at $525 because that would only make him a small return. He wants Apple to buy other shares at $525 so that it raises the value of his shares above $600-700 and he'd make about $1b profit in under 3 years. He's lying to other shareholders to get them on board with the plan - that plan being pump and dump. When the biggest shareholders hit the predetermined highs, they'll start selling fast and it'll drop. Then they'll buy cheap again, maybe even suggest more buybacks until they can keep draining the massive profits year after year. The more the biggest players make, the more shares they'll buy cheap and the more control they'll have over the company.
post #149 of 153
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post
The buyback increases the value of his shares so he profits by selling them to someone else. He doesn't want Apple to buy back his shares at $525 because that would only make him a small return. He wants Apple to buy other shares at $525 so that it raises the value of his shares above $600-700 and he'd make about $1b profit in under 3 years.

 

Well, whatever Apple does with its shares, I hope they buy back his first. :grumble: “Hey, you wanted a buyback…”

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #150 of 153
Another legal impossibility. Apple can't forcibly buy back any individual's shares.


Also, I have no idea what you mean when you say "Apple should buy up all of its shares." Given that the conversation is about Apple buying back shares, I assumed you meant that Apple should buy back all the shares, please enlighten me as to my mistake.

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post #151 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The buyback increases the value of his shares 

 

Nitpicking here, but it increases the proportion of ownership, not necessarily the value, since Apple will just be replacing outstanding share commitment with outstanding debt (or a drop in cash reserves).  All these things are (theoretically at least) taken into account in the share price, so an individual shareholder shouldn't get see a rise in their stock solely because the company retires some shares.  It only works to boost value if the shares are undervalued with regard to assets and/or future earnings, which will cause a greater rise in share price and/or dividends amongst a smaller share pool when the market finally catches on.

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post #152 of 153
Does apple's money have to come back to america to buy the shares if it was to happen, or can apple buy the shares in other currencies without paying import tax?

Long FB, AMZN
Schlong AAPL

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Long FB, AMZN
Schlong AAPL

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post #153 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClementineOrange View Post

Does apple's money have to come back to america to buy the shares if it was to happen, or can apple buy the shares in other currencies without paying import tax?

They'll need to get another low interest loan to buy back stock.
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