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post #121 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Because not all apps can use touch.

I'm not sure which is more of a fail. Not all apps being able to use touch on a touch device or that there are 20 steps to change the orientation which in itself is a pointless gesture since the system is designed around only one orientation. It's the equivalent of doing only one side of Rubik's cube and claiming you figured it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvondeylen View Post

As far as file structure, I am waiting for Apple to use Tagging on iOS. Then there won't be a need for storing files in folders. Just label files with a Tag and select Tags to display files. Will work very similarly to filing in folders.

I'd like to see that but they'd still need to move away from the app-centric structure. Even though 'we' might not like it it's part of the success of iOS.
post #122 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterdeep View Post

I wouldn't choose to run Photoshop (or anything else) on a 10" ... touch screen

I use an old school (until new Mac Pro cones out) black Mac book with 3 external monitors, multiple external HDs, wireless KB & mouse.

I'm curious

(1) how well does the surface perform with an HDMI monitor attached: is it mirrored, or do you get two screens?

and, is the tablet now like a big touchpad / control panel?

(2) what happens when you plug an HDMI monitor into the iPad Air or retina mini iPad, while you're running Pages / Numbers?

Do you get dual functionality on both displays, or mere mirroring? This is where a pointing device other than a finger would be useful.

I'm used to plugging all kinds of crap into my slabtop on my desk when I'm working there, and taking along the bare basics on the road.

All this perceived having to choose between "either a laptop / net book / air, or an iThing" is myopic.

iOS will let a developer use an attached screen as a second workspace.

Think outside the slab...
Edited by vaporland - 10/27/13 at 11:57pm
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post #123 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm2c View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the iPad and dual monitors via hdmi or airplay can you use both monitors for separate functions and open up multiple apps or is it simple mirroring?  I haven't used an iPad since the 2 and I didn't get into trying to use it with an external monitor that much.  I know it can mirror to a monitor easily.

On the Surface you can snap apps side by side and with a dual monitor set up you can open up multiple apps across your external monitor and have separate apps on your Surface monitor or even open up the desktop on one of the monitors and use Office on a screen better suited for it.  I feel that feature is helpful and it's one of the main reasons I am not surprised when someone is able to use the Surface as their primary device.

The iPad can be used as a secondary monitor but I have never tried to use it like that.
The iPad also mirrors well on a tv or monitor. As for opening multiple screens, I have found the multitasking on an iPad works well enough for what I do even though you can't see all the windows at once. ie cutting and pasting from one app into another.
post #124 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Using the Surface 2 for work, I found myself defaulting to selection through the trackpad because of habit. But my frustrations with it would then lead me to reach out and navigate the Surface 2 via the touchscreen. This felt like an unnatural way of using a desk-based computer for an extended period of time.

Options are nice, but between the touchpad and the touchscreen, I felt like the Surface 2 was trying to do too many things and not really succeeding at any. At least the keyboard was reliable.

 

I think this is down to experience with the device. Using a device with a touchscreen, keyboard and mouse does initially lead you to keep switching between what your using and unnatural feelings. But this is more to do with it being new rather than wrong. You just need to give it enough time to learn what you should use touch for and what you should use a mouse for. e.g. Selecting text is best with a mouse because you want the accuracy between letters. Scrolling on a webpage can be best with your thumb at the side of the screen and pressing a button can be a lot quicker to press the screen rather than moving a mouse.

 

 

Let's be real: If you're serious about productivity, and your daily workflow is even moderately complex, you're not going to rely solely on either an iPad or a Surface in their current state. That's not to say these devices can't get work done -- they certainly can, but they're not as efficient at doing so in a number of ways.

 

This is probably Microsofts biggest issue with the Surface. They've taken all the news articles about iPads replacing PC's and Laptops seriously and built something to combat it. But although a lot of people are replacing laptops with iPads to take to meetings or work on out of the office and want a light device, a big proportion of iPad sales are for home consumers and nothing to do with work, or children as it's an excellent toy. The surface in it's current form can't achieve iPad like sales because it's gone after a smaller market.

 

For the market that IS using an iPad for work, I think the Surface wins. For generally being productive, nothing is ever going to beat a massive screen. 

 

When compared to the upcoming iPad Air, the Surface 2 does offer some value over Apple's offering. Specifically, Microsoft's entry-level model comes with 32 gigabytes of storage, and is priced at $449 --?$50 less than the 16-gigabyte iPad Air.

But to get the most productivity out of a Surface 2, you'll need a Type Cover 2, which sells for $130, which brings the total cost to about $580. An Apple Bluetooth keyboard does not attach to the iPad and stand it up, but it does sell for $69, putting the iPad at a total cost of about $570 for a productivity-minded user. And there are third-party options for iPad, like the $100 Logitech Ultrathin Keyboard, which do attach to and prop up the iPad, offering a notebook-style experience.

 

This bit I take issue with, Type Cover 2 is the most expensive of the keyboard attachments. You can still buy the original Touch Cover for $79.99 which is also a good keyboard and I don't have any issue typing on. Which brings the Surface total to $529 which is less than the $570 for an iPad with Keyboard.

post #125 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post
 

So the takeaway is that both iPads and Surface RT suck for trying to do productive work on, try Windows Pro?

 

In that case you'd need to compare productivity, usability and performance with a Macbook or Macbook Air.

post #126 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronsullivan View Post

This is a remarkably restrained article from Apple insider.

I'm thinking the RT doesn't have much of a future, but the Surface Pro 2 is enticing if only for the stylus support... or maybe the one from Wacom. For some who want to use these pads for art, it's frustrating that Apple hasn't given us a solid choice yet.

Maybe the iPad "Air" is opening up a category that is "Pro" and with it will come a durability, an optional larger screen, and an amazing stylus experience. Here's hoping!

 

I think for Apple to invest the time and energy required to provide Wacom-style stylus support, it would need to provide some broader functionality that appealed to a wider customer base than the niche group of graphic artists that currently uses these styluses (styli?). 

post #127 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by boyd View Post

It's amusing all the comments calling the review "objective" and "fair"...

Of course, Windows RT has its flaws, but the final "conclusion" of this review came down to a price comparison that was completely off-base.

$580 for a 32GB Surface and attachable TypeCover.
$570 for a 16GB iPad Air and a battery-powered Apple bluetooth keyboard.

That's comparing Apples to oranges.

It'd be $700 for a 32GB iPad Air and the Logitech keyboard the reviewer mentions.

And as for sacto joe's comment about the MacBook Air:
Why would someone looking at a Surface RT jump to a laptop without a touch screen?
Certainly you mean they'd be better off with a Surface Pro (which is cheaper than a MacBook Air) and still functions as a tablet with a Wacom-based Pen.

 

First prize for comment "most missing the point."

 

It's not about specs and price points. It's about real world usability and utility.

post #128 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowitall View Post

Exellent article for msinsider.com. Can't wait to read it every day, just like androidinsider.com and couldntcareless.com.

 

Love all the astroturfer negative comments from shills who registered in the last 60 days.

post #129 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by akqies View Post


I'm not sure which is more of a fail. Not all apps being able to use touch on a touch device or that there are 20 steps to change the orientation which in itself is a pointless gesture since the system is designed around only one orientation. It's the equivalent of doing only one side of Rubik's cube and claiming you figured it out.
I'd like to see that but they'd still need to move away from the app-centric structure. Even though 'we' might not like it it's part of the success of iOS.

ALL apps works with the touch interface, that's ridiculous to even suggest. The only problem I have seen is with some older desktop applications it takes a little getting used to when selecting text, Windows 8.1 has improved this though if not solved the problem. That's it though, everything else works just fine. It has the same functionality as a mouse or trackpad. There is only 2 steps to change the orientation of the screen if it's not already set to automatic, which is the default setting. Slide finger to the left to right starting on the left side of the screen, this opens the Charm Bar, click on Screen. The system is designed to be used in both portrait or landscape, I use portrait for eBooks and sometimes surfing. It is very apparent you have never used the system before so why do you keep commenting on how crappy it is.

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post #130 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by freediverx View Post
 

 

I think for Apple to invest the time and energy required to provide Wacom-style stylus support, it would need to provide some broader functionality that appealed to a wider customer base than the niche group of graphic artists that currently uses these styluses (styli?). 

It's really great for taking notes as well, a pen isn't just for artist. The iPad Mini would be the perfect note taker if it had one.

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post #131 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

...
When compared to the upcoming iPad Air, the Surface 2 does offer some value over Apple's offering. Specifically, Microsoft's entry-level model comes with 32 gigabytes of storage, and is priced at $449 --?$50 less than the 16-gigabyte iPad Air.
...

 

So what changed??  On the Surface RT half that storage was taken up by the OS and recovery partition.

 

Nothing has changed so it is actually 18 gig (3 more than the first gen Surface) of usable space.

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/support/storage

post #132 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiepaul View Post

Wouldn't a comparison to an 11" Macbook Air been more interesting if you wanted to focus your review on "productivity and multi-window multitasking"...? I would much rather use an air which can dual boot Mac OS X and Windows and can comfortably be used on a lap.
This thing doesn't seem to do anything particularly well which is it's downfall. What's the point of it being a tablet if you need a keyboard and to sit it on a desk? Ironically, an actual Macbook Air seems more portable than this thing...

 

If they had a Surface Pro then the comparison to a MacBook Air would be good but they had a regular Surface so comparing to the iPad is the correct thing to do. Otherwise you've got to many differences with one device half the price of the other.

 

The only thing that was really missing from the article was Skype / Facetime comparison. I constantly use Skype all day at work so it's a real productivity app that's worth including. Also if you watch the video of them announcing the Surface 2, the front facing camera in low light levels is just crazy. Admittedly I don't think there's many work related video calls going on where someone's in a dark room.

 

There should really be a bit of consumer use tested as well as the other point of the device, is you have one device. You use it with the Kindle app etc on the train and then for notes in a meeting. Or if your on a business trip, it's your device to work on during the day, and then to browse the net and Skype your family back at the hotel. Rather than the MacBook Air for work + iPad for non work.

post #133 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by icoco3 View Post
 

 

So what changed??  On the Surface RT half that storage was taken up by the OS and recovery partition.

 

Nothing has changed so it is actually 18 gig (3 more than the first gen Surface) of usable space.

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/support/storage


It's a shame these thing's don't just advertise the free space. 32 gig compared to 16 sounds great until you realise how much space Windows takes in comparison then it doesn't seem that great. But if they just advertised 18 gig compared to 14 it still sounds quite good that you get  28% more space for less money.

post #134 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by eightzero View Post

At the risk of threadjack, I am also waiting for a proliferation of ebook readers that are free. Yes, free. A button on them lets you buy a product with a huge margin. Why not get them in the hands of as many people as you can. Make them one trick ponies, and give them away. Maybe "buy 10 ebooks get the device free." Not likely from AAPL after their run in with the DOJ. 

Where do You live ? People don't read that much these days as to guarantee profit from giving away an eReader.
post #135 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post
 


It's a shame these thing's don't just advertise the free space. 32 gig compared to 16 sounds great until you realise how much space Windows takes in comparison then it doesn't seem that great. But if they just advertised 18 gig compared to 14 it still sounds quite good that you get  28% more space for less money.

Delete the recovery partition, put it on a USB drive and you'll free up 6GB making it 24GB. Plus the Surface 2 includes 2 years of 200GB SkyDrive space free, you also have a Mini SD drive. There is plenty of space if you need it. You also get 1 year of Skype calls, not sure if that matters but still nice for those who use Skype as a telephone.


Edited by Relic - 10/28/13 at 9:21am
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post #136 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadbag View Post

MS defines productivity as Office. Unless you write lots of documents or spreadsheets, and most people don't, Office won't help you be productive. It all depends on what you need to get done. A musician might be more productive with GarageBand. A photographer doesn't need office. But plenty of other apps could be useful. A graphic designer doesn't need office either. Most people don't need office. Office does not make a better letter, term paper, etc than many other apps. Office is way over powered for the majority of users.

The problem is that almost everyone will at some point need to exchange documents with a business or lawyer and Word is the only word processor that meets the needs of business users.    

Let me give you a simple example of why business people can't use Pages.  You can't do paragraph numbers in pages.  You can do bullets and lists, but not paragraph numbers.  For paragraph numbering, you need the second line of the paragraph to be left justified, which can't be done in Pages.  While it would be trivial for Apple to fix this problem, the problem isn't trivial for users. For instance, many US courts and government agencies require paragraph numbering and have a page limit.  If you can't left justify the text, you lose 0.5-1.0 inches of available text. (beside the fact that it looks like shit).  To fix the problem all Apple would have to do is let the left margin have a negative number.  Very simple to fix.  

It really pisses me off that Apple has 150 billion in cash and they stick their head in the sand when it comes to providing critical features for Pages.  I work in a firm of 50 lawyers and 4 of us have twisted the arm of IT to let us run Macs.  Many Mac users in my firm and other businesses are dying to ditch Word.  Personally I suspect Apple has avoided providing business features to stay out of MS's turf.  I suspect it has something to do with Microsoft's willingness to provide a Mac version of Word when Apple was at its darkest hour.  At least I hope this is the case, otherwise Apple is just being stupid or an ass hole or both.  

post #137 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post
 

The problem is that almost everyone will at some point need to exchange documents with a business or lawyer and Word is the only word processor that meets the needs of business users.    

..

It really pisses me off that Apple has 150 billion in cash and they stick their head in the sand when it comes to providing critical features for Pages.  I work in a firm of 50 lawyers and 4 of us have twisted the arm of IT to let us run Macs.  Many Mac users in my firm and other businesses are dying to ditch Word.  Personally I suspect Apple has avoided providing business features to stay out of MS's turf.  I suspect it has something to do with Microsoft's willingness to provide a Mac version of Word when Apple was at its darkest hour.  At least I hope this is the case, otherwise Apple is just being stupid or an ass hole or both.  

 

While I agree that Pages cannot really be used in a business environment for any "serious" or lengthy documents and even if it could, there are compatibility issues with Word, I think Apple's strategy for this product is that it's a word processor for consumers who don't need sophisticated functionality - it's not for someone who is writing a complex book or document.  It's for people writing letters and other simple documents.       I produce very detailed software specs and there's no way I could use Pages, even if I wanted to.   The formatting/styles sophistication is simply not there. 

 

Word certainly has plenty of problems and is frequently frustrating to use, especially when it tries to help you, but Pages is not good enough to replace it. 

 

And while Numbers does have one bit of very useful functionality that Excel doesn't have:  the ability to overlay grids that have different column widths, it still can't replace Excel for sophisticated uses.   I thought I would use Numbers at home, but it wasn't worth switching back and forth all the time.

 

I think what Apple sees in the larger consumer market is that people are using word processors and spreadsheets less and they're using other types of apps more.    They're not going to win the business market anyway (except for the odd designer who insisted on a Mac), so why bother, especially now that they're giving away some apps with a computer purchase.  

post #138 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

I'm not sure why it's not in there commercials, apparently after reading the comments in this thread it might be helpful. This is an Apple forum and people don't have any interest in exploring further what any other platform has to offer, they would prefer to outline the negatives. I found the docking station after just 1 minute by visiting the Surface product page. It's the same with any platform specific forum, Android, Microsoft, ect. They all think their choices in computer or gadget is supreme. The forums that get the most hits on Appleinsider when Apple isn't releasing new products of course are the ones discussing these other gadgets because people in general like a good bitch session, human nature. There of course is nothing wrong with owning and using the Surface 2, it's a good machine and will accomplish most tasks that people need to do. I would still like to know if anyone in this thread has used a Windows 8 tablet for at least a month.

 

You answered the question on why I did not know. Not in their commercials and I don't visit their sites. I have really NO need to know anything about any other vendor as I'm very happy with all my Apple products. Reality is, I only know of M$ what I read here. 

 

I am surprised they don't advertise the dock more, improve it more, and get it into the hands of people who want to be 'productive' with their tablets. But then, that is why M$ is in the hole they are in. 

 

I think Apple could introduce something really nice, simple, clean when the market is in need of it. 1-3 years out perhaps. 

post #139 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post
 

Delete the recovery partition, put it on a USB drive and you'll free up 6GB making it 24GB. Plus the Surface 2 includes 2 years of 200GB SkyDrive space free, you also have a Mini SD drive. There is plenty of space if you need it. You also get 1 year of Skype calls, not sure if that matters but still nice for those who use Skype as a telephone.

I agree with you that there is enough space. I actually bought a Surface Pro 2 and think its brilliant. I just think its a marketing mistake to advertise 32gigs of space when the free space is so much lower. The average person isn't going to want to delete the recovery partition and the minute you read 32gigs you want that kind of space, but it creates a negative when you don't get it. Advertise 18 and it would still be a plus but without any negative of less space.

post #140 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadbag View Post

MS defines productivity as Office. Unless you write lots of documents or spreadsheets, and most people don't, Office won't help you be productive. It all depends on what you need to get done. A musician might be more productive with GarageBand. A photographer doesn't need office. But plenty of other apps could be useful. A graphic designer doesn't need office either. Most people don't need office. Office does not make a better letter, term paper, etc than many other apps. Office is way over powered for the majority of users.

From high school to graduate school, most students prefer using Word and Excel.  Of course there is the open office and Apple stuff, but W and E are pretty much dominating the campuses.

post #141 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post
 

I agree with you that there is enough space. I actually bought a Surface Pro 2 and think its brilliant. I just think its a marketing mistake to advertise 32gigs of space when the free space is so much lower. The average person isn't going to want to delete the recovery partition and the minute you read 32gigs you want that kind of space, but it creates a negative when you don't get it. Advertise 18 and it would still be a plus but without any negative of less space.

I like it too or Windows 8 tablets in general. The iPad is also a very good tablet but it has a lot of restrictions, enough where a 2nd tablet is justified for myself anyway. I use the iPad for general surfing and music creation apps, music is my favorite hobby so an iPad makes total sense. Everything else though I use my ThinkPad Tablet 2. People complain about the lack of apps but I have found everything that I need and so will most people that have actually used the platform for anytime of length. Having a Wacom pen is just awesome and I use it quite often, love running desktop applications on a touchpad screen like Photoshop, Gimp, Illustrator or Office but even the small stuff like WireShark or Picasso is very cool. All of the negative comments in the world from this forum still won't stop those who still like things, like; built in HDMI, USB, Mini SD, Wacom Pen, NFC, pop-out stands, docking-stations that are connected to larger monitors with keyboard and mouse, file-managers, a desktop OS, run multiple OS's like Linux or ChromeOS, i5 processor, 8GB RAM, ect. It's not for everyone, I am not trying to shove these machines down peoples throats as everyone has their separate needs but saying that they are bad machines is just absolutely ridiculous. Microsoft includes 250 dollars worth of freebies like 200GB of Skydrive and Skype phone which also makes the Surface2 a very good deal for those who need/want it of course.

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post #142 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I don't get the big deal about this device. So Microsoft took the laptop form factor and moved the guts from the keyboard to the display. Almost every promotional shot of this device shows it with the kickstand and keyboard. That's not a tablet. And not something I'd want to snuggle up in bed with to read a book or slip in a purse or back back when I'm out and about.

For me the problem with this device is there aren't a lot of pure tablet benefits. So if its mostly going to be used as a laptop, why not just buy the real thing where you get better specs and functionality. John Siracusa tested the 13" MBA with Mavericks and got 15 hours battery life. Neither of these surface tablets come anywhere close to that.

Well, not really... as long as you use any Windows 8 or 8.1 tablet, Pro or RT, within Metro/Modern GUI environment, you get very regular tablet experience. You get some perks, like multiple apps on screen (8.1 should push over 2, I think - 3 or 4?). You don't need external keyboard with Modern GUI apps - not more than you'd need it on iPad or Android tablets, anyway.

Classic desktop is feature you don't have to use at all, and it is not in your way - Windows will be perfectly happy never to show you classic desktop. If you do need Office (or, in case of Win Pro tablets, almost any other desktop application), then classic desktop is good extra to have, but it comes with a price - it works best in laptop mode. You can invoke on-screen keyboard and use touch instead of mouse pointer in desktop as well, but you will see right away that it is not designed for such usage; you can, but you will not want to.

But regardless of tablets' capability to perform "real" work or not, 10" screen is not where you want to be productive. Even with 1080p. This is where docking stations, available for new Surface Pro 2 and a few OEM tablets, can help. Use tablets with light and small screen/touch interface optimized mini apps on the move, plug it to dock and use it with large screen/desktop keyboard & mouse/network connection while in office... but I'm pretty sure Surface 2 cannot do that, you'd need one of Pro tablets with x86 logic for that.
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