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Apple faces backlash over missing, changed functions in iWork revamp - Page 6

post #201 of 216
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
They are only doing it on the apps that are getting a full rewrite from 32 to 64 bit, which is almost complete.

 

Oh, good; they are doing a backend rewrite, then?

 

But I’m talking more about how between just Photoshop and Illustrator identical commands are completely different shortcuts and menu items are stored in different places. It’s as though they aren’t in any way from the same publisher, and really they’re not. It’s like if when Apple bought what became iTunes they decided to never change how it operated. Ever. 

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post #202 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post
 

 

I know, right? By now users should KNOW that Apple is utterly CLUELESS about how to manage product updates! They should know that just because Avid and Adobe and every other software vendor they deal with manages major rewrites without screwing their users is not a reason to expect Apple to have any competency whatsoever in that regard. Apple forges its own path, and when it comes to major software revisions, that path involves stripping features and functions until they can figure out what they're doing.

 

Here's what Apple has done with both FCPX and iWork, they were given a specific date to release the product, and since they are both complete re-writes, they simply didn't have all of the features ready to be released.  Now, in the case of FCPX, they felt it was better to release a product that hit most of the prosumer market while they spend more time on the higher end pro features, since Pros don't typically replace a major application immediately.  They told everyone that there is a re-write from 32 bit to 64 bit and the functionality that was missing was going to take a little more time, but they released a product to at least get familiar with what they felt was a better overall work flow.   Apple made good on their promise and some of the people that are brand new to NLE weren't used to FCP 9 so they just liked FCPX without being stuck in the shift in mentality.  Those that actually spent time learning FCPX and waited patiently for the feature enhancements, they got used to it and are happy with it.  Some editors have expressed they love FCPX now and won't go back to FCP 9.


Now, with EVERYTHING, anytime someone uses a high end application, there are people that use various tools for certain things.  In a large production film, they have lots of different editors doing different aspects of a film and it's very likely that out of all of the people involved at various stages, they could be using FCPX, AVID, Premier, Sony or maybe something else.   It's rare when a big movie release does everything on only one s/w app.  Obviously, there might be various apps that are better suited for different specific capabilities, so a NLE that only uses one NLE app is probably going to find themselves not always able to get work.  If I were a serious NLE editor and always wanted to work, I would have every app available and always be willing to use something new.  It's the nature of that type of business.

 

Now with iWork, they are giving it away for FREE.  Plus, it's not a big deal to continue to use whatever you are using until they add the features that haven't yet been released due to a re-write. Once they add those features back, there will be other features that will be added over time and once it's 64 bit, it won't need to get a re-write.

 

All of this bitching and complaining isn't going to get them to add the features any faster and they aren't going to hand out $$ because they left out some features on a FREE product..  They have released about 2 weeks ago an explanation and why you are STILL complaining about it shows your just really diving deeper into being silly.

 

Seriously,  what they did is NOT SCREWING the user.  If you think that way, then you shouldn't be using a computer.  By your way of reasoning then all companies that make s/w and h/w are screwing the customer.

post #203 of 216
To be perfectly honest and blunt: I could care less about any "word processor/typewriter/desktop publishing" software title. As far as I'm concerned, if the software doesn't export to valid HTML5/CSS3 markup, and allow FTP, web or ebook publishing, it's essentially worthless going into the future.

And for new Digital Publishing/Web 3.0 content creation, Pages will be perfect because it's built for mobile first, throws out features that can't translate to HTML5/CSS3 markup in the near future, and is built with web technologies at it's core.

Might I add, that all of the new software of late will be hitting it's stride right about the time that kids that first "touched" an Apple device and technology, will be hitting High School.

Our old fart NLE's, glorified typewriters (kids will look them up om Wikipedia like we did with Turn Cranks and telegraphs), and paper-based publishing of any kind including packaging and posters... and the jobs that go with them... are already starting to be spoken of in past tense.

All you have to do is look around you and media trends, plus whos setting and actually creating them and with what tools. Some examples: #1 fastest selling software of all time, is a recent game; #1 IPO in recent years and arguably, also software of the publishing kind: Facebook; #1 creation tool in the photo category: Instagram; #1 highest estimated worth of 2 kids and a social platform: Snapchat; most viewed entertainment/video source: YouTube.

With that last point YouTube: please find me just 1 of the Top 20 most viewed channels and/or videos that used anything from Avid. I'll bet dollars to donuts that at least 1 used an Apple device, software or app. I'll even raise that to 5.

With any of the points above: please make a case why and how any of them use a word processor as their primary critical business software tool. Crunching numbers (excel) is the only viable office suite product that at the moment hasn't been suplimented on the desktop for something better on the web or as an app. However, it was a number-crunching app that started the PC revolution, so actually... I don't think that's all too far off. Distributed computing comes to mind as something talked about for years.

I guess what I'm trying to get across, is that I firmly believe that Apple, even though it's currently run by Old Farts, is looking 5 steps ahead and is dedicated to creatinga computer platform and software for the people that grew up using iPhones and iPads. They're more than willing to leave us with our memories of desktop publishing and software "in those days", because this time they don't want to lose their tech innovation and youthful fans so easily as they did the last time around.

Sir Jony recently said with a glimmer in his eye, "Oh how I wish I could show you what we're working on!". I also take that bet that counters that it's "insanely great" just like Apple's internal roadmap. Apple's building the future of tech and software without any hesitance or roadblocks, even those put up by their customers. That says to me that they have internal knowledge and the power of their convictions that it's going to be pefect. Rather interesting, because until recently it was mostly Steve Jobs caring the Power of Conviction torch. Now it's an entire company. That says something and if I was a competitor... I would be worried. See my above post re: MS... it appears they are.
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #204 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

Yep, you don’t get it.

 

Right. I definitely DON'T get it. That anyone tolerates such BS is amazing to me.

post #205 of 216

Pages is down to 1.5 stars on the Mac App Store.  (other previously iwork apps at about 2 stars)

 

Until very recently, Pages, Keynote and  Numbers were listed in the Best New Apps section, very prominently, despite only having 2 stars.  They are no longer on the list.  It was surprising how long they stayed in the top spots...

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #206 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post
 

Pages is down to 1.5 stars on the Mac App Store.  (other previously iwork apps at about 2 stars)

 

Until very recently, Pages, Keynote and  Numbers were listed in the Best New Apps section, very prominently, despite only having 2 stars.  They are no longer on the list.  It was surprising how long they stayed in the top spots...

And in 6 months after they've added all of the features including new features, it will go back up.  Seriously, enough is enough.  Apple has already made it public that these apps will be having all of the features people are complaining about plus some new ones within 6 months.

post #207 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

I was going to make a rather snide statement regarding users having hope an being able to go back to the alternative (MS)... but look at this news just in from

Microsoft: We aren't going to have three different versions of Windows:
Without saying so (of course not!) they surely and certainly are validating Apple's Post-PC concept.

 

The link discusses MS's future OS plans but isn't really relevant to this discussion because although MS is messing around with Windows 8 and metro, you can still reject all of those changes and buy brand-new computers with Windows 7. If you are an organization looking to add seats, you don't have to worry about having to manage a mix of Windows 7 or Windows 8, or having to pirate copies of Win 7 for your new machines because it's is no longer sold. MS tends to keep supporting its products until their successors reach maturity. Vista was a flop but that was no big deal to the end user because one could just buy XP and receive patches until the release of Win 7. 

post #208 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post
 

The link discusses MS's future OS plans but isn't really relevant to this discussion because although MS is messing around with Windows 8 and metro, you can still reject all of those changes and buy brand-new computers with Windows 7. If you are an organization looking to add seats, you don't have to worry about having to manage a mix of Windows 7 or Windows 8, or having to pirate copies of Win 7 for your new machines because it's is no longer sold. MS tends to keep supporting its products until their successors reach maturity. Vista was a flop but that was no big deal to the end user because one could just buy XP and receive patches until the release of Win 7. 

 

Actually, Microsoft ORIGINALLY wanted to end support for XP, etc. earlier so they can force their install base to upgrade faster, but they got a LOT of resistance.

 

It's actually better to be up to date as much as you can to the latest OS, plus it's less costly for the company that makes the OS since they don't have to support something that no one uses.  So, it actually might be in Apple's best interest to give away OS X instead of charging for it.  I'm sure someone at Apple has looked at how much it costs them to support each variant of OS X.  They currently are supporting around 4 different flavors, even though they aren't pushing out bug fixes (since the bugs have been fixed on the older versions), but they still support it when you call them up on the telephone, etc.  Whether it's Microsoft or Apple, I'm sure they would love it if everyone updated to the latest OS within 6 months.  Obviously, for iOS (since it's free), they have reached 90+% on the latest version within around 9 months, which is unheard of for ANY platform.  If they can do the same thing with OS X and get users to be able to do this, then Apple might ultimately save support costs, which is partly what's killing Microsoft and all of the PC mfg (same thing with Android).   It's that overhead that eats into the profit margins.  It's one thing to have good markup from a cost of goods standpoint, but they also have to look at support costs which is SG&A which eats up those gross profits and turns into less net profits.  That's partly the reason why Apple makes good Net Profits. 

 

Here are all of the currently supported versions of Windows;

Windows 8.1 Home

Windows 8.1 Professional

Windows 8 Enterprise

Windows RT

Windows Phone

 

Then there is

Windows 7 Starter

Windows 7 Home Basic

Windows 7 Home Premium

Windows 7 Professional

Windows 7 Enterprise

Windows 7 Ultimate

 

Then there is

Windows Vista Starter

Windows Vista Home Basic

Windows Vista Home Premium

Windows Vista Business

Windows Enterprise

WIndows Vista Ultimate

 

All mentioned are STILL supported once XP (too many variants to mention) gets axed completely next year.

post #209 of 216
Quote:
 

All of this bitching and complaining isn't going to get them to add the features any faster and they aren't going to hand out $$ because they left out some features on a FREE product..  They have released about 2 weeks ago an explanation and why you are STILL complaining about it shows your just really diving deeper into being silly.

 

Making an app 'free' doesn't mean you can screw your target audience over. Free means: no payment required. It does't mean: "we can release whatever we want cause it's free"

post #210 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by dacloo View Post

Making an app 'free' doesn't mean you can screw your target audience over. Free means: no payment required. It does't mean: "we can release whatever we want cause it's free"
However it does mean that "(Apple) can release anything we damn well want if it advances our objectives toward a functioning and feature-synced, unified platform for the immediate future benefit of the majority of our users and customers".

Not to compare in the least, however... ask the billions of Windows users what they think at the moment of "unified software" and go join in that chorus of short-sighted hate rather than moan here.

Since I'll bet 10:1 Apple does it RIGHT and will have the concept WORKING first before MS get's it's detractors on board. Heck... it'll be another decade probably before they get WinXP usage into single digits. If you prefer that kind of neophyte religious traditionalism, may I suggest that Apple may not be the best church for you to attend.***

*** Since the "Cult of Apologetic Apple" users is the next complaint and slur often seen in these discussions, I thought I'd sling the first rock at that.... 1smoking.gif
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #211 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

"(Apple) can release anything we damn well want if it advances our objectives toward a functioning and feature-synced, unified platform for the immediate future benefit of the majority of our users and customers".

 

That sounds like a fancy way of saying "It's our prerogative to dumb-down previously useful software in order to make it look like a stupid touchscreen is actually a useful computer." Big foocking deal. Achieving "feature" parity across platforms is no great feat when you do it by removing features from the "real" version (as opposed to the "Lite" version for your super-duper tool of the future semi-computer).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

Not to compare in the least, however... ask the billions of Windows users what they think at the moment of "unified software"

 

Ah yes, that old troll. "If you think Apple is bad, just look at MICROSOFT!" Are you saying the bar is set only just high enough to stay ever so slightly ahead of Microsoft and that's good enough? Or is it to create the best experience possible? If the latter, your remark is silly and utterly irrelevant.

 

Besides, who wants unified software?! What's the supposed benefit of making one set of features work across all devices? Pretending an iPad is a substitute for a traditional computer is like trying to use a screwdriver as a hammer. Different tools for different jobs, with different software for each.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

go join in that chorus of short-sighted hate rather than moan here.

 

Right, because criticism of the Holy Entity will not be tolerated here. You're either with us or agin' us, and if you don't wholly worship every goddam thing Apple does you are banished to use the tools of the devil, is that it? :no:

 

Y'know doc, it is possible dislike some of Apple's decisions/products/policies and still prefer its products over the alternatives. We call those people "users." They should not be confused with the people who frequent these forums, who we call "fanboyz."


Edited by v5v - 12/15/13 at 4:36pm
post #212 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

That sounds like a fancy way of saying "It's our prerogative to dumb-down previously useful software in order to make it look like a stupid touchscreen is actually a useful computer." Big fūcking deal. Achieving "feature" parity across platforms is no great feat when you do it by removing features from the "real" version (as opposed to the "Lite" version for your super-duper tool of the future semi-computer).


Ah yes, that old troll. "If you think Apple is bad, just look at MICROSOFT!" Are you saying the bar is set only just high enough to stay ever so slightly ahead of Microsoft and that's good enough? Or is it to create the best experience possible? If the latter, your remark is silly and utterly irrelevant.

Besides, who wants unified software?! What's the supposed benefit of making one set of features work across all devices? Pretending an iPad is a substitute for a traditional computer is like trying to use a screwdriver as a hammer. Different tools for different jobs, with different software for each.



Right, because criticism of the Holy Entity will not be tolerated here. You're either with us or agin' us, and if you don't wholly worship every goddam thing Apple does you are banished to use the tools of the devil, is that it? 1oyvey.gif

Y'know doc, it is possible dislike some of Apple's decisions/products/policies and still prefer its products over the alternatives. We call those people "users." They should not be confused with the people who frequent these forums, who we call "fanboyz."
A sincere Thank You for the compliment and acknowledging that yes, I am an admitted Fanboy as I have stated on these very forums quite often.

However, my "fanboyism" is much more complex, in that it is not only for Apple as a company, but their duality of always being up to date and moving technology forward rather than being stagnant. If Apple... which is the technology leader and has been since the late '70s... deems it necessary to take a short step backward to move 2, 5 or 10 steps forward in a relative short period of time, I will be the first to support that decision.

Why you might ask? Because many of us older fans have been through this before and have seen and lived the results. Truly and absolutely stunning advancement in tech in such a short period of time, albeit AFTER a major technology shift. Many lay shortsighted blame and derision at Apple's feet for causing unnecessary shifts; I personally welcome these shifts no matter how seismic they are... because Apple has a track record of knowing what they are doing. I would say they are successful because of it. And to be perfectly honest, my financial life and career would not have been possible without the trust and belief in this company and accepting that they know better what's around the corner than I do. Hell, they're creating the "around the corner", the entire freeway sytem and the Mega City at the end of it!

Yes, there were major transitions that we had to weather through which involved "starting over" or relearning what we "had down" in our sleep just a day before an update, or a new OS, or even the death of a beloved software title. However I can't remember the last time that I was dissappointed over a long period of time by sticking to my decision, to stick with Apple gear or software. Sometimes I have had to wait before jumping on the bandwagon with new software or the new Apple way of doing things. However at the same time I'm waiting, I'm also testing the new way and taking a critical look at how I'm doing something to see if it's going to fit at some point in time with Apple's way. I'm also not conceated to think that my way is the best way, and very possibly the engineers behind this software, might have something better going forward that they are hinting at.

As far as I'm concerned, we all have to adapt and/or compromise at times... or simply be left behind. Entire companies have went down the drain because they are stuck in the past or wait too long. I firmly and freely support a company that takes chances traditionally... that has done quite well for themselves, and done good by me as a fan.

Let's be honest here: what other company can you name that has such a good track record re-creating and re-imaging entire industries that you would prefer to be a fan of and prefer to use their products? Then take your know-it-alll arrogant egotistical short-sighted attitude... and go there. I've heard it's greener some 600 miles north of Nob Hill /s
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #213 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

^ post

Nice write up! And open minded. thoughtful decision making. Good post, thanks.
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
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post #214 of 216

Excellent post. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but I understand and respect your view on the issue.

 

One remaining quibble:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

Let's be honest here: what other company can you name that has such a good track record re-creating and re-imaging entire industries that you would prefer to be a fan of and prefer to use their products? Then take your know-it-alll arrogant egotistical short-sighted attitude... and go there. I've heard it's greener some 600 miles north of Nob Hill /s

 

I don't think it's fair to tell anyone who offers any criticism, objection or less-than-complete-statisfaction with absolutely everything Apple ever does to change platforms or shut up. My wife occasionally does things that I wish she wouldn't but that doesn't mean I want a different wife. The world is not black and white. I reside in the particular shade of gray occupied by people who don't necessarily like some of Apple's business practices but still prefer them over the alternatives.

post #215 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post

I don't think it's fair to tell anyone who offers any criticism, objection or less-than-complete-statisfaction with absolutely everything Apple ever does to change platforms or shut up. My wife occasionally does things that I wish she wouldn't but that doesn't mean I want a different wife. The world is not black and white. I reside in the particular shade of gray occupied by people who don't necessarily like some of Apple's business practices but still prefer them over the alternatives.

Thank you for the compliment and understanding.

I would also like to apologize for my harshness in suggesting that you should take a hike, so to speak. In my haste and trying to keep my post to some kind of readable length (I deserve no more than an F for Failure every single post!)... I unjustly glossed over the fact that you are an avid Apple fan yourself. Sorry for that!

However, may I just suggest that next time you belittle Apple's strategy, you take a moment to try and understand it first and where they are going with it.

Your quip, "Pretending an iPad is a substitute for a traditional computer is like trying to use a screwdriver as a hammer." seriously rubbed me the wrong way, and actually couldn't be further from the truth today, and ever more so in the future. In fact there are many things an iPad can do today far better, more efficently than any computer or OS on the market.

The only myth thrown around is that the iPad isn't a productivity tool on the same playing ground as a computer. Wrong thinking IMO, because it's the old software and paradigms that people are comparing the 2 with. Just wait until the engineers have half-way rewritten productivity software for use with the iPad, which should take probably another year, maybe 2. Then we can talk productivity comparison. Don't forget: office software has a 25 year headstart. Pretty awesome if Apple can unseat those old conventions in 1-3 years, wouldn't you agree? I'm at least giving them a chance however they seem fit. You sounded to me that you were ready and suggesting to others to abandon Apple for stagnancy.

Whatever... it's your choice, but once again thanks for at least entertaining my point of view.

BTW: now that ya brought it up... I've been meaning to talk to you about your wife.... 1smoking.gif

Edited for spelling, and also to thank PhilBoogie at the same time for the compliment on my original reply. 1wink.gif
Edited by ThePixelDoc - 12/6/13 at 4:37pm
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #216 of 216

If you want a reliable equation typesetting in any application, try using LaTeXIt <http://pierre.chachatelier.fr/latexit/>. You have to install a full version of TeX (I did it through TeXShop), but once it is all installed, you can set equations using the inline or display template and get resizeable PDFs that hot link most of the time. And it uses the standard LaTeX syntax, which all real mathematicians use (or so I am told by Real Mathematicians).

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