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Apple faces backlash over missing, changed functions in iWork revamp - Page 2

post #41 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Squirrel View Post

I think this "fiasco" comes down to two issues.

1/. Communication. Users shouldn't have had to discover by using the app upgrades that things have changed. There should have been indications at the app launch event that there would be some differences in functionality. Maybe the software should have been designated a new name. The iWork for iOS updates that came bundled with 7.0.3 should have been optional. When opening old version files, the new app could have listed in a dialog box which features in the opened file it no longer supported and allowed a user to bail out.

Making things worse is the silent treatment Apple gives its customers; seemingly priding itself on its policies of not commenting or responding.

Let's get one thing straight: this is not The Acme Computer Company we're talking about here. This is Apple. One of the most profitable companies in the world. They could "personally respond" to every email, gripe and feature request... if they really wanted to.

2/. Trust. When people and companies adopt a given software application, they literally invest in it; in both time and money. It's a commitment that should be honoured. Apple depended on pro users who saw the company through its darkest times... then rewarded them by dropping support for things like Final Cut Server. Again, Apple has more than enough money in the bank to keep supporting-- and developing!-- older versions of software applications like FCP7 and even iWork 09... to make a firm commitment to its loyal users that their investment in Apple products is safe into the future.

My livelihood depends on Keynote. When features I depend on are removed I get nervous. I start to worry that I might be left high and dry. Sure, I can use the legacy versions of the software... but for how long? These are not things I should be feeling. Without trust, a brand is nothing.

Having lived through the FCPro 7 to FCPro X issue I admit I would rather have been told everything upfront. I'd have preferred FCPo 7 to be still there and supported and asked to try FCPro X and ease into it with assurances it was a work in progress. The solution would have been for Apple to contact all FCPro 7 users and offers them a beta of FCPro X and ask us to use it and give feed back. IMHO we would have all been enthusiastic and excited to be part of the transition and supportive every step of the way. I just spent the last several months doing exactly that with Mavericks and Mavericks Serve after all. I even pay Apple for the privilege!

Perhaps iWork '13 beta might have been a good idea too. We Mac enthusiasts work untold hours testing stuff. Apple should harness this same enthusiasm it gets from Developers, from the general population with apps. No one would bitch if iWork '9 was still there and iWork '13 was dubbed a beta.
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post #42 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Windle View Post

Software developers should be shot for removing functionality in new versions of software.
If car companies did this, they'd be out of business. Imagine the new version of your car, which has all the mod-cons, minus ABS or airbags or cruise control etc...

Actually I went out of my way the last time to make sure my truck didn't have cruise control, power windows or power mirrors. I could have done without the ABS too. The problem is some of those so called advancements are a step backwards in some environments. If you ever had a powered window self destruct because the windows are frozen you will know what I mean. Sometimes reliability trumps tweaky unreliable features.

Beyond that you do realize that the developers are delivering exactly what many of us have been asking for. You see from my perspective this is an upgrade. I've lost nothing of value but gained significant capability. So yeah it is an upgrade.
post #43 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by robogobo View Post
 

In that case you'll have to find a copy of the old version.  Or have them export it as a PDF or .doc


Well - that certainly makes sense from a business perspective.  My employees have to figure out which version of the apps to open which versions of the files?  Those who have upgraded either have to maintain the old version (shit for sense) or spend countless hours updating all of their existing documents?  What happens to the poor schmuck who just double-clicks on an older format document in email, but the new version of the app opens the document (and the document is missing information because the new app stripped old the old app's features)?  Now I have to train my users to save the document somewhere and check it out before opening it so that know which version of the app to use before opening it?  Make everyone start sharing docs in "doc" format?  This makes no business sense whosoever.  This is why Apple has trouble penetrating the business market.  Change is good - no doubt - but forcing significantly more work on your customers in order to deal with an application upgrade is ludicrous.

 

From a consumer perspective - who cares?  They'll just suck it up and eventually update their old files.

post #44 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by glnf View Post

Nothing is lost? Our Media and Film University where I sometimes give lectures has migrated completely away from Final Cut Studio to Adobe and Avid products. Why not FCPX? For the simple reason that you can't educate future industry professionals on a tool that might not exist anymore when they graduate in 3 years.
What is this Irrational "U". Really you have no way of knowing how long FCPX will be around and frankly you can't be sure the Adobe or Avid products will be around in three years. Especially when the Avid products are more or less crap.

Beyond that what sort of silly ass university teaches the use of a specific app instead of the art behind the creation of the product. If any thing the students should be exposed to a number of editing tools rather than just one. This reminds me of the misunderstanding people have with regards to computer science courses, where they think the program is about learning a computer programming language.
Quote:
I'm talking about several hundred graduates each year in out city alone. Btw. Final Cut Studio was besides Logic the main reason creative people work on Apple computers. When you go Adobe you can as well use a window machine. And thats what a lot of students are now doing

True creative people take on the tools that enable them to realize what is in their imaginations. To that end FCPX is a perfect tool for the creative person. The other tools are oriented towards drones that simply do as they are told.

Frankly it is too bad you didn't mention the schools name because I would suggest that potential students stay away from the school and the program. There is more to creativity than being taught to use questionable tools. Especially tools from the likes of Avid which might not be around much longer.
post #45 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Actually I went out of my way the last time to make sure my truck didn't have cruise control, power windows or power mirrors. I could have done without the ABS too. The problem is some of those so called advancements are a step backwards in some environments. If you ever had a powered window self destruct because the windows are frozen you will know what I mean. Sometimes reliability trumps tweaky unreliable features.

Beyond that you do realize that the developers are delivering exactly what many of us have been asking for. You see from my perspective this is an upgrade. I've lost nothing of value but gained significant capability. So yeah it is an upgrade.

That's an overly simplistic attitude. Your analogy is not applicable in the slightest.

Yes there are some amazing, great advances ... collaboration is awesome for example, cross Apple device support amazing, but yes they dropped some features that will be crucial for many users. Yes I expect those features to come back. It's simply about the time Apple had to get the product ready for the show and tell IMHO.

As I already posted, I feel Apple might have been better launching them as beta products and keeping the '9 iWork going until '13 was fully up to speed. Then everyone would be happy. It's all about psychology in the end, as a beta folks would use it but also use the previous version when needed, they can do that now all we hear is bitching as folks feel forced to use a product with features they need missing, plus fear '9 won't be there at all soon. One can almost predict Apple announcing they will keep '9 available till '13 fully up to speed any day now to calm users down. As a beta that would have been implicit.
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post #46 of 216

Also - what happens to someone using an iPad?  If they have the new version of the app, and they receive an email with a file created using the old version, can the iPad read the file without having old features stripped out?  I think it's pretty hard to keep the old version and the new version of these apps on an iPad at the same time (certainly not something for the faint at heart).

post #47 of 216
These new apps look and work great. The removal of functions is not acceptable, even if they want iOS and Mac apps to be totally cross compatible. And some functions could still exist while not being shown on iOS (like the side ruler)
post #48 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post

Also - what happens to someone using an iPad?  If they have the new version of the app, and they receive an email with a file created using the old version, can the iPad read the file without having old features stripped out?  I think it's pretty hard to keep the old version and the new version of these apps on an iPad at the same time (certainly not something for the faint at heart).

Yes you can open because you transfer the file via iCloud remember so the file on iCloud will be rendered cross device compatible and yes it will be now stripped of unsupported features such as text linkages. As I keep saying, my fingers are crossed in hope this is phase one and features will be added back over time.

One thing that is not being mentioned is Pro apps not yet having iCloud collaboration yet. I can imagine the screams would be louder if Apple dropped features to gain iCloud, cross device compatibility and collaboration working in pro apps! However, I dream of one day having this. For example, Logic Pro X with full iCloud based collaboration and all the features intact would take the music industry by storm!
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post #49 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

This is the second questionable decision by whomever is the software architect for iWork. The first was wasting years of man hours developing a web version, in what has been an app-centric world for several years now (thanks to Apple in fact). *Ring ring* *Ring ring* Hey iWork architect, it's for you! It's the 2000s and they want their web app back.

That's my most useful feature. It allows me to freely send a link to anyone- even those on android and Windows. Unless you'd prefer conceding that territory to google docs to expand their market. Not to mention the selling aspect of "anyone can view and work on iWork documents- even those on android and windows" for when they are giving away free product. Unless of course you'd rather concede that business to office on iPad once released. All this helps edge out the competitors and helps apple with securing some form of office productivity in the future instead of being totally irrelevant.
Edited by Andysol - 10/29/13 at 6:29am

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post #50 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by robogobo View Post
 

You can get the old version for a new machine by using the Migration Assistant when you set the new machine up, or even afterward by dragging the application over File Sharing from the old machine, or a Time Machine backup.  Apple will never remove the old version or files.  They will always be there.  

 

iWork was rewritten to achieve parity on a roadmap to the future.  It was critical and necessary.  Like FCPX, the features will be restored in time and until then, '09 will continue to function normally.  Nothing is lost.

Yes, the old versions will always be there.  Whether they'll work or not depends on how many other changes Apple decides to make in OS X to bring it closer to iOS.

 

And whether this was "critical and necessary" or not is a matter of opinion, on which we differ. Why it was critical and necessary to remove useful features in the interest of cross-platform compatibility, rather than forking off a distinct product (which might, as you say, eventually converge with the more powerful one) is not at all apparent.

post #51 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

That's my most useful feature. It allows me to freely send a link to anyone- even those on android and Windows. Unless you'd prefer giving that territory to google docs to expand their market. No to mention the selling aspect of "anyone can view and work on iWork documents- even those on android and windows" for when they are giving away free product. Unless of course you'd rather relegate that business to office on iPad once released. All this helps edge out the competitors and helps apple with securing some form of office productivity in the future instead of being totally irrelevant.

Exactly right. I am sure we are going through growing pains now, in a year or two we will have a mind blowing cloud set up for OS X and iOS alike ... and yes even the poor folks on lesser equipment can join in on the periphery. 1smoking.gif

You are correct to point out those new features, they are being ignored in the screaming about (hopefully temporarily) lost features.
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post #52 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobsonmyface View Post

The dumbing down continues. Did apple learn nothing from the FCX fiasco or are they still too arrogant?

 

"Dumbing down" of Apple's software is the common objection, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Apple, in my opinion, has done a horrible job of explaining _why_ certain notable decisions have been made. iWork's current transition is yet another perfect example of this.

 

iWork is being pushed in a meaningful way across both OSes (OS X and iOS). In the process certain compromises had to be made in the immediate term. Features will be added "back" across the platform going forward, but this takes time.

 

On the topic of Final Cut Pro X, watch this explanation of what's _not_ wrong with the software. Start at 13:40:

 

https://vimeo.com/73797466

 

The problem is not with FCPX, it's with Apple's narrative, and this video provides a nice lens through which to consider many of Apple's decisions.


Edited by cherrypop - 10/29/13 at 7:00am
post #53 of 216
I kinda see your points but overall I think you are way off base. Successful businesses hire people that can become an asset to the company, if you got employees that are so stupid they can't handle this transition then you have problems. Seriously, it may sound rough but do you really want to have people in your employ that can't handle these trivial issues?
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post


Well - that certainly makes sense from a business perspective.  My employees have to figure out which version of the apps to open which versions of the files?  Those who have upgraded either have to maintain the old version (shit for sense) or spend countless hours updating all of their existing documents? 
Or maybe not, it really depends upon the features they use. It could be worst, you could be operating in a regulated environment and have to update all your documents at regular intervals anyways.
Quote:
What happens to the poor schmuck who just double-clicks on an older format document in email, but the new version of the app opens the document (and the document is missing information because the new app stripped old the old app's features)? 
Actually nothing, he can go back to his E-Mail program of choice and download the file from the E-Mail server again.
Quote:
Now I have to train my users to save the document somewhere and check it out before opening it so that know which version of the app to use before opening it?  Make everyone start sharing docs in "doc" format?  This makes no business sense whosoever. 
Then why do it? You really shouldn't have to put excessive training effort into this. You should expect more from your employees. If it bothers you too much you could always write a script to update all the file names of existing iWork documents to indicate that they are a pre 2013 version.
Quote:
This is why Apple has trouble penetrating the business market.  Change is good - no doubt - but forcing significantly more work on your customers in order to deal with an application upgrade is ludicrous.
My god how in the hell can you run a business by making mountains out of mole hills?
Quote:
From a consumer perspective - who cares?  They'll just suck it up and eventually update their old files.
You really need to spend a few months in a regulated environment. Controlled documents need to be updated regularly even if it is just to mark the history information that the file has been reviewed. Beyond that I've walked away from business where it is obvious that nothing gets updated or reviewed. In the end a business that is sloppy with its documents just looks shoddy and unprofessional. In the end your telling the world your business can't handle this issue just makes you look very poor in the eye of others.
post #54 of 216

As others have pointed out, In Pages 5.0 one can no longer link text boxes. This is a serious problem for sophisticated layouts that many of us have developed over the years. In the new Numbers, one can no longer “mark for move” which was among the most useful time savers and far better than cut and paste for working in huge, multi tab spreadsheets. There are many other glaring omissions in this ‘update.’ Sigh…one step forward…many back.

post #55 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacManFelix View Post

As others have pointed out, In Pages 5.0 one can no longer link text boxes. This is a serious problem for sophisticated layouts that many of us have developed over the years. In the new Numbers, one can no longer “mark for move” which was among the most useful time savers and far better than cut and paste for working in huge, multi tab spreadsheets. There are many other glaring omissions in this ‘update.’ Sigh…one step forward…many back.

Yes, I hope that's back ASAP but look what you can do that you couldn't before ... let's all just be positive and urge Apple to keep working so we have it all. 1smile.gif
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post #56 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post
 


Well - that certainly makes sense from a business perspective.  My employees have to figure out which version of the apps to open which versions of the files?  Those who have upgraded either have to maintain the old version (shit for sense) or spend countless hours updating all of their existing documents?  What happens to the poor schmuck who just double-clicks on an older format document in email, but the new version of the app opens the document (and the document is missing information because the new app stripped old the old app's features)?  Now I have to train my users to save the document somewhere and check it out before opening it so that know which version of the app to use before opening it?  Make everyone start sharing docs in "doc" format?  This makes no business sense whosoever.  This is why Apple has trouble penetrating the business market.  Change is good - no doubt - but forcing significantly more work on your customers in order to deal with an application upgrade is ludicrous.

 

From a consumer perspective - who cares?  They'll just suck it up and eventually update their old files.

Welcome to the world of computers.  But you should probably just go back to using a typewriter. 

post #57 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linguist View Post
 

Yes, the old versions will always be there.  Whether they'll work or not depends on how many other changes Apple decides to make in OS X to bring it closer to iOS.

 

And whether this was "critical and necessary" or not is a matter of opinion, on which we differ. Why it was critical and necessary to remove useful features in the interest of cross-platform compatibility, rather than forking off a distinct product (which might, as you say, eventually converge with the more powerful one) is not at all apparent.

It's very apparent to me.  The roadmap was for cross platform parity.  In order to do this, now was the time to bring things down to the common denominator and develop them side by side.  It had to be done eventually and bulking up the OS X version wasn't going to make it any easier.

post #58 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

The criticism that one should use the old app is unwarranted.

Why should anyone be reasonably expected to know they should do this? A brand new version was just released. Why would you have any reason to suspect it would render you existing files unusable?

Imagine the LMFAO if Microsoft had done this.

I took one look at the new pages and moved right back. Thankfully I didn't lose any files, but time machine would have had my back, I guess. That's one thing to be thankful for.

Well, I've once rushed in hurry to a trainee computer who still ran Excel 2003 to use a really basic cross-tab functionality depleted in Excel 2007.

 

Since then, and because my boss don't want to spend $ to buy a new Office version just to regain old functionalities, I've learn to write complex formula to manually replicate this lost basic functionality...

 

And with a little search you can find a ton-load of angry article about the revamped "ribboned" Office (paying) update.

 

The major difference is that "ribboned" Office was mostly a GUI update, some old beasts were still alive under the hood.

With this new iWork, Apple finally gone 64bits and introduce a new framework that promise to provide unified experience across many way to access your documents. And don't dare to tell me that Office 365 is at the same level...

post #59 of 216
It's all Scott Forstall's fault!

Use Office- problem solved.
 
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post #60 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by robogobo View Post

Welcome to the world of computers.  But y
ou should probably just go back to using a typewriter. 

LOL, that's harsh ... 1biggrin.gif
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post #61 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

That's an overly simplistic attitude. Your analogy is not applicable in the slightest.

Yes there are some amazing, great advances ... collaboration is awesome for example, cross Apple device support amazing, but yes they dropped some features that will be crucial for many users. Yes I expect those features to come back. It's simply about the time Apple had to get the product ready for the show and tell IMHO.
The fact remains if you have the old versions nothing much has really changed. Beyond that people seem to be up in arms over features I've never used. So you can see where I just don't care about the whining.
Quote:
As I already posted, I feel Apple might have been better launching them as beta products and keeping the '9 iWork going until '13 was fully up to speed. Then everyone would be happy. It's all about psychology in the end, as a beta folks would use it but also use the previous version when needed,
I don't buy this either. Some people won't use beta software, beyond that iWork on the web was in business for a long time as a beta.
Quote:
they can do that now all we hear is bitching as folks feel forced to use a product with features they need missing, plus fear '9 won't be there at all soon.
This is the problem though, they aren't forced into anything. This is perhaps the most perplexing part of this whole discussion and is why I have no respect whatsoever for the people crying in their soup over this upgrade.
Quote:
One can almost predict Apple announcing they will keep '9 available till '13 fully up to speed any day now to calm users down. As a beta that would have been implicit.

Honestly there aren't that many people with valid complaints. Beyond that why would they announce something that already exists. The old versions of iWork didn't go away and In fact where recently updated, most likely to support Mavericks. So given that I'd expect the 09 versions to work for at least a year. Not that that will do Apple a lot of good as that just keeps people from updating their data.

I'd be the first to admit that I'm a bit disappointed with the Numbers upgrade as I was hoping for more capability there. However I see no justification for wailing on Apples forums about how evil the new versions are. Especially when those new versions do deliver things that I wanted.
post #62 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by robogobo View Post
 

It's very apparent to me.  The roadmap was for cross platform parity.  In order to do this, now was the time to bring things down to the common denominator and develop them side by side.  It had to be done eventually and bulking up the OS X version wasn't going to make it any easier.

 

That's your opinion, to which you are certainly entitled.  It's not mine, or that of a great many people posting in the Keynote area at Apple.  These are mostly people (like me) who use the present version as a basic tool all the time.  Deriding criticism of Apple's move as coming from the uninformed, luddites, or Micro$oft trolls is not a useful response.  Why it was necessary to replace the functionality of the existing product with a different (and in important respects less functional) product, aimed at a distinct and to some extent different market, continues to elude me.

post #63 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
 

Even if that did happen, you could have (and still can) use time machine to get the older version back. 

That seems hardly optimal because Versions isn't that good of a versioning tool for any moderately complex document. The time machine interface doesn't highlight the differences between two versions (as a diff tool would, for example) so the only way to compare two fifty-page documents is to visually inspect all fifty pages. Consider also the scenario where someone opens a document in Pages 5, notices and accepts some of the changes but doesn't notice the one on page 142 until later? Since versions in an autosave chain are annotated by nothing more than a timestamp, someone would have to remember exactly when he first opened the document with the new Pages. The changes in iWork would have caused fewer headaches had the iWork apps saved to a new file by default instead of overwriting the old one.


Edited by d4NjvRzf - 10/29/13 at 6:56am
post #64 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by robogobo View Post
 

You can get the old version for a new machine by using the Migration Assistant when you set the new machine up, or even afterward by dragging the application over File Sharing from the old machine, or a Time Machine backup.  Apple will never remove the old version or files.  They will always be there. 

 

No, I dont' think this is the way for an organization to acquire legal software for their new hardware.  You just can't do that. And if the new hardware isn't replacing something old but rather augmenting the office, you're going to be up the proverbial creek.  Unless Apple is continuing to sell iWork'09.  But we have a track record on Apple's part of forcing upgrades.  For example, nobody is able to use their legally-purchased Appleworks on any hardware bought in the past 6 or so years, because Apple chose to phase it out. As they appear to be doing with iWork.  Since Apple cannot be relied upon to provide ongoing stable solutions, we have no choice but to turn to Microsoft (or perhaps an open-source solution).

 

Unfortunately, software companies come and go as well, so there is no guarantee for the future. I maintain a System 9 Mac for purposes of running legacy software from outfits that are no longer in existence. Similarly, I maintain a Tiger Mac so I can run the best graphics program ever made (Canvas), despite that the founding company folded and the new owner has inexplicably killed off the product.  I never expected iWork to be a permanent solution in an evolving world, but I never expected it to be quite so ephemeral as it's turning out to have been.

post #65 of 216

For the time being, it appears that Apple has gimped Pages. They've gutted it. 

 

This is supposed to be a Word Processing/Page Layout app, but now it has no customizable toolbar, and what appears to be, for example, no flow between text boxes. Just to name a couple of things in a disappointingly long list. 

 

Apple dropped the ball with this one. Hopefully they have some substantial updates in store for it. And if they do, what's puzzling is that they didn't seem to foresee the obvious reaction they'd get *in the meantime*, which I'm guessing they could do without. Might have been a good idea to actually do the app right, *before* release. It's a friggin' page layout app, not an entire operating system. Or a Mapping app. It doesn't require any first-release incubation period.  

 

I miss ClarisWorks. LOL, ancient, I know. But nothing really catastrophically bad was done to the software version to version (in its heyday.)

post #66 of 216
Originally Posted by jobsonmyface View Post
The dumbing down continues. Did apple learn nothing from the FCX fiasco or are they still too arrogant?

 

Stop lying, please.

 

Originally Posted by G13 View Post
don't be a dick, brosephine. iwork autosaves. 

 

Of course, this is somehow evil to some people. The fact that software keeps your work from being destroyed is the worst thing since the introduction of USB, forcing people to buy new peripherals, instead of HOW IT SHOULD HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FROM 1976 ON.

 

Originally Posted by geojohn View Post
Apple doesn't get it. Either backwards compatibility or a file upgrade path are essential for useable and reliable software. Removal of key features is not an "upgrade" but a downgrade.

 

I’m happy for feature parity. I’m upset that they were stupid enough to remove features to get it. But iWork has always been unable to open newer versions of its files with older versions of the software. You didn’t see anyone whining about it until right now.

 
How many more messages does Apple need to send to pro users that they cannot rely on their software products over time?

 

Given that this keeps happening, could it POSSIBLY be that YOU are the one who is wrong and Apple is not? You know, since they keep selling those products, after all?

 
In this context, why bother making the new trash can Apple Pro? Who is going to buy it and what Apple software will they run, at risk of application and file death down the road?
 

 

Once again, did the thought ever enter your mind that you might not be 100% correct and accurate in your assessment here?

 
iWork/Pages 5 should never have been released as such, but given a different name.

 

Come off it.

 
With billions in (overseas) bank accounts, Apple could spend a little more to understand their customers needs and provide reliable software development paths.

 

Money ≠ right.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linguist View Post
But you haven't told me how to get the old ones for a new machine

 

Buy a copy of iWork ’09. How is that a difficult idea to formulate?

 
…or what to do when Apple “ installs” the old ones in a future OS X update…

 

If you don’t have a Time Machine backup, that’s YOUR fault. And they’re not going to do that, first of all. Stop with the FUD.

 
…why I should buy into the notion that unlike Micr$oft products, my day to day productivity software won’t be seeing any more updates in the future…

 

I dunno; what in the world gives you that idea in the first place, since Apple has given no such indication thereof?

 

Originally Posted by TeaEarleGreyHot View Post
legally-purchased

 

Oh, come off it. You want a refund for your decade-old software, do you? Get over it. I bet you’re upset that Safari doesn’t work on your Performa, too. There was absolutely no reason for you to have used this phrase.

 
Since Apple cannot be relied upon to provide ongoing stable solutions, we have no choice but to turn to Microsoft (or perhaps an open-source solution).

 

Thanks for the FUD.

 
I maintain a System 9 Mac for purposes of running legacy software from outfits that are no longer in existence. Similarly, I maintain a Tiger Mac so I can run the best graphics program ever made (Canvas), despite that the founding company folded and the new owner has inexplicably killed off the product.

 

Utter nonsense.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #67 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Beyond that what sort of silly ass university teaches the use of a specific app instead of the art behind the creation of the product. If any thing the students should be exposed to a number of editing tools rather than just one.

 

I totally agree on that one. The pressure comes from the students though. They are worried whether the tools they learn are "industry standard" and will remain so in the future. I guess a lot of them are after some quick money after graduating. Fair enough. Of course the university is teaching art and design, not software. Still we have to decide how to outfit our studios and what workshops we offer.

 

Don't get me wrong on Adobe by the way. I remember the faith of FreeHand. It's just that Apple is becoming notorious for cutting to many "loose ends".

 

Btw. why am I writing this? Because I love working with Apple products and I hope Apple will eventually take these considerations into account.

post #68 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post

That seems hardly optimal because Versions isn't that good of a versioning tool for any moderately complex document. The time machine interface doesn't highlight the differences between two versions (as a diff tool would, for example) so the only way to compare two fifty-page documents is to visually inspect all fifty pages. Consider also the scenario where someone opens a document in Pages 5, notices and accepts some of the changes but doesn't notice the one on page 142 until later? Since versions in an autosave chain are annotated by nothing more than a timestamp, someone would have to remember exactly when he first opened the document with the new Pages. The changes in iWork would have caused fewer headaches had the iWork apps saved to a new file by default instead of overwriting the old one.

In the time it took you to complain about timestamps, Time Machine, and requesting that iWork create a new file automatically... you could have searched for "diff tool" and found that there are quite a few on the market to allow your COMPUTER to do the job for you.

I personally recommend Kaleidoscope 1smoking.gif
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #69 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

I'm not criticising Apple for starting again from scratch and ensuring feature parity with iCloud and iOS as a top priority...these are great things for which they should be commended, but...

If you're going to put out a clearly unfinished product be open and honest about that and don't try to pass it off as an upgrade until it's ready! Call it a beta and people will be much more forgiving and probably even more willing to help in the development process by way of feedback and feature requests.

It's just astonishing to me that it's now the third time in as many years they've made exactly the same mistake, even more so now with the benefit of hindsight regarding the FCP X and Maps fiascos.

Is it that hard for them to say: "We love iWork but sometimes you have to start again and we wanted to make a suite that has feature parity across all your Macs, devices and the web. It's not ready yet but we're offering a free public beta of the new iWork for OS X today and we'd love to work with you to make it the best possible platform to get work done as quickly, easily and fun as possible."

Seriously is that so freaking hard??? Or is that not arrogant enough for Apple these days?

 

Well said.

 

Interestingly, for iPhone, Siri was the big new thing not too long ago and a major reason lots of people bought iPhones.  It was beta, and only recently became an adult.  So it's not that Apple doesn't push out beta software...

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #70 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by robogobo View Post

Welcome to the world of computers.  But y
ou should probably just go back to using a typewriter. 

No - I will continue to use Microsoft Office for business purposes because Microsoft does a better (not perfect, but better) job at maintaining backwards compatibility.
post #71 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobsonmyface View Post

The dumbing down continues. Did apple learn nothing from the FCX fiasco or are they still too arrogant?

Hey newbie - if you are going to post in these forums, go get yourself a good education first. When FCP X was released it was actually a complete rewrite and a V1.0 release. The iWork suite is the same. Do you really think that Apple has no development roadmap for these products? Just like FCP, Apple will continue to add functions and apabilities to their products, but without the bloat ala MSFT. In the case of FCP they provide API's for other specialty companies to add functionality and features as well making it a very powerful tool set. These things take time.
post #72 of 216
The new iWork apps for the Mac, iPages, Keynote and Numbers are buggy. Many users are experiencing crashes when they open the app or open files in the apps. The Support Communities are filled with reports of crashes and with suggestions for resolving the problem, some of which work for some users, while other don't. I've had to learn to remember not to open files from within these apps, but to open them in Finder. Otherwise the app crashes. Too frustrating and not what I expected from Apple.
post #73 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post

No - I will continue to use Microsoft Office for business purposes because Microsoft does a better (not perfect, but better) job at maintaining backwards compatibility.

You got that right. Microsoft: The world leader in not looking forward.
post #74 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I It could be worst, you could be operating in a regulated environment and have to update all your documents at regular intervals anyways.

God have mercy on the poor souls using iWork in a regulated environment. That would definitely be "worst". 1biggrin.gif
post #75 of 216
The new iWork is a phenomenal piece of garbage. Numbers is too focused on being cute than usable. And now iWork 08 documents are "too old" and can't be used! I was going to jump into iWork/iCloud for mobility, but google has a better product
post #76 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post
 

For the time being, it appears that Apple has gimped Pages. They've gutted it. 

 

This is supposed to be a Word Processing/Page Layout app, but now it has no customizable toolbar, and what appears to be, for example, no flow between text boxes. Just to name a couple of things in a disappointingly long list. 

 

Apple dropped the ball with this one. Hopefully they have some substantial updates in store for it. And if they do, what's puzzling is that they didn't seem to foresee the obvious reaction they'd get *in the meantime*, which I'm guessing they could do without. Might have been a good idea to actually do the app right, *before* release. It's a friggin' page layout app, not an entire operating system. Or a Mapping app. It doesn't require any first-release incubation period.  

 

I miss ClarisWorks. LOL, ancient, I know. But nothing really catastrophically bad was done to the software version to version (in its heyday.)

 

If they could foresee it, would they care?  Sometimes they act like they don't.

 

I miss Claris Works, too.  If the new iWork would have a drawing app...

 

 

 - - - - -

 

For what it's worth:

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/28/apples_massive_software_update_fail/

 

They could do without the media attention.  They could do without the fuel for the next stupid Samsung commercial.  

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #77 of 216
The new Pages is very buggy, nearly unusable when it comes to creating and grouping objects in the document. Apple needs the same quality control in its software as it has in its hardware. I'm shocked this software was actually released. C'mon Apple. You're better than this. Or are you...?
post #78 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post


In the time it took you to complain about timestamps, Time Machine, and requesting that iWork create a new file automatically... you could have searched for "diff tool" and found that there are quite a few on the market to allow your COMPUTER to do the job for you.

I personally recommend Kaleidoscope 1smoking.gif

Kaleidoscope looks like a nice diff tool, but how does that help an iWork user whose old file versions are hidden away in some opaque database in the root directory? Because that's how the autosaved versions are stored. Does OS X Versions support alternative front-ends?


Edited by d4NjvRzf - 10/29/13 at 8:37am
post #79 of 216

No rtf support in Pages?  That's huge.  Some things can't be handled by TextEdit.

post #80 of 216
I read the threads on Apple last night and now here... about this "fiasco" and "life threatening debacle of epic proportions", only to conclude that: there is a rather large vocal sub-group of Apple users that are seriously in need of a "reality check" in regards to the software company they have bought into. Apple will ALWAYs risk going 2 steps backwards to further their goals moving into the future. No company, prevailing school of thought ,or even their current customers and fans will get in the way of them realizing their vision of computing for the future. Steve Jobs DNA does most certainly live on in this company!

Apple does need to realize that they have picked up a lot of new customers over the years that just are not very technically inclined i.e for example: using Google or searching in the App Store for a "diff tool". Or even simpler: make a quick folder anywhere with "Test Docs", dropping copies into it and checking out the features and/or lack there of to decide whether to trust a new program with your "live" and valuable originals. This is computing 101... but alas, no one has held their hands yet to show them the way.

The belief is still very wide-held that an Apple device does everything well "automagically" out of the box. This remains unfortunately a future desire rather than truth. Users still need to observe good computing practices, like back-ups, finding tools that fit their needs and/or extend the capabilities of Apple's software. Or if need be, even replace software titles for a period of time before Apple gets there "reworked visions" into a usable form.

Many have pointed to Final Cut Pro X as an example of "failure" regarding a whole new approach to a program and/or film editing. Oh my! That is in reality an example of Apple at it's very best! Because FCPX in about one more year and update, will be so far ahead as to not being caught until it's competitors do exactly the same thing: REWRITE from the ground up. All I can say is, "Have fun playing catch up!".

I will agree that it should be Apple's desire to communicate a little more than they have done in the Steve Jobs years. Fact is, there is no underlying "genius" and "master planer" at Apple any longer, specifically with the undeniable RDF SJ alone had in spades to get people to believe in him and Apple, without fully seeing or understanding his vision.

IMHO, we are in the very middle of a huge computing revolution, one that was begun and is currently being led by Apple. That is into a powerful, true multi-device truck vs. car computing environment where cloud services, collaboration and cross-platform performance will rule the roost. Those that can build powerful frameworks for that to happen slowly but surely today, will benefit 2,3 5 and 10 years from today. Moore's Law no longer applies; efficient and intelligent software and ecosystems will rule them all.

Let MS continue to drag it's current clients and the masses kicking and screaming into 365 with legacy bloated software that doesn't work well;

Let Adobe continue to deliver legacy bloated software as a subscription because it can NEVER be native on an ARM device or be run in a browser;

Let Apple do the rewrites necessary today to be able too offer compelling software on their devices both big, small and inbetween, and across multi-platform browsers for tomorrow.

And finally, let us imagine the day when our "cars" roar past all those trucks, even our own... in usability, user-friendliness and collaborative environments without the schackles of a closed environment or minimum configuration. 1smoking.gif

WARNING and HINT: the unsung hero of Mavericks and a hint at what's to come... TAGGING! Use it... understand it... because it is the File/Folder System of tomorrow on ALL Apple devices including Macs.
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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