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Apple faces backlash over missing, changed functions in iWork revamp - Page 3

post #81 of 216
There's a right way and a wrong way to deploy a new piece of software.

Putting out a free "upgrade" that instantly deprecates a document's support for the old version is a bad move. People need warnings. It needs to be clear what is going to happen to a document, and options should be presented.

Nobody with serious work responsibilities would be interested in destroying data in their documents permanently. It's almost like Apple is trying to underline the idea that their packaged software is worth what it costs: nothing.

Pretty strange point to be emphasizing, if you ask me.
post #82 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post

Do you really think that Apple has no development roadmap? …Apple will continue to add functions and apabilities to their products, but without the bloat ala MSFT.…These things take time.

I'm a lifelong journalist. The debate here seems the same as the "get it first" versus "get it right" debate in that profession.

Critics and defenders here agree Apple tried the "get it first" route. Instead of the year of development in which Apple develops these apps toward what they were and can be, I wish they'd waited till they could bring them out with the proper tools in the first place.
Edited by rtdunham - 10/29/13 at 9:13am
post #83 of 216
Originally Posted by mutoneon View Post
Putting out a free "upgrade" that instantly deprecates a document's support for the old version is a bad move. People need warnings. It needs to be clear what is going to happen to a document, and options should be presented.

 

Been the case in every single version. Why are we only hearing complaints now?

 
Nobody with serious work responsibilities would be interested in destroying data in their documents permanently.

 

Nobody with serious work responsibilities would have ONLY THE COPY OF THE DOCUMENT THEY’VE NOW OPENED IN THE NEW VERSION OF IWORK, and therefore would simply restore from the most recent compatible backup.

 
It's almost like Apple is trying to underline the idea that their packaged software is worth what it costs: nothing.

 

Thanks for the FUD. When you’ve a real argument… you know the drill.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

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post #84 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post


Hey newbie - if you are going to post in these forums, go get yourself a good education first. When FCP X was released it was actually a complete rewrite and a V1.0 release. The iWork suite is the same. Do you really think that Apple has no development roadmap for these products? Just like FCP, Apple will continue to add functions and apabilities to their products, but without the bloat ala MSFT. In the case of FCP they provide API's for other specialty companies to add functionality and features as well making it a very powerful tool set. These things take time.

 

The FCP fiasco was not the introduction of FCPX. Everyone was looking forward to a revamp of FCP. The fiasco was the way Apple pulled the whole of the Final Cut Pro Studio from the market over night. No more Apple Color, no more DVD Studio Pro, no more Final Cut Server and on top FCPX could not and still can't open FCP documents. So if you bought a new computer there was no legal way to continue your work on it. For a professional product there is nothing more extreme you can do to alienate your customers. Agree? And what about being a tad more friendly?

post #85 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by glnf View Post

The FCP fiasco was not the introduction of FCPX. Everyone was looking forward to a revamp of FCP. The fiasco was the way Apple pulled the whole of the Final Cut Pro Studio from the market over night. No more Apple Color, no more DVD Studio Pro, no more Final Cut Server and on top FCPX could not and still can't open FCP documents. So if you bought a new computer there was no legal way to continue your work on it. For a professional product there is nothing more extreme you can do to alienate your customers. Agree? And what about being a tad more friendly?

Well explained. The general, non pro editor world, just didn't understand the problem and assumed we were whining.
Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini.
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post #86 of 216
Is anyone else getting this "Stay on Page/Leave Page" pop up dialog box when you try to refresh a page on AI forums?

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #87 of 216

I'm sure according to the usual suspect Moderator on here anyone who doesn't think the new version is the greatest thing ever made are idiots... :no:

 

This isn't new. Apple has a habit of taking an ok product and somehow making it worse in the next release.......then they 'fix' it the release after and somehow market it like it's a brilliant new 'feature'.

 

Quicktime and iMovie come to mind immediately...

post #88 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtdunham View Post

I'm a lifelong journalist. The debate here seems the same as the "get it first" versus "get it right" debate in that profession.

Critics and defenders here agree Apple tried the "get it first" route. Instead of the year of development in which Apple develops these apps toward what they were and can be, I wish they'd waited till they could bring them out with the proper tools in the first place.

So you truthfully and wholeheartedly agree that Apple should have waited for the App Store to be in place before they presented the iPhone?

You believe that their should have been a parity of apps for the iPad BEFORE they presented it?

You "think" that it is wiser to stand still and continue with legacy ways of working rather than embrace new tools and change?

May I please IMPLORE you to take 10 minutes of your busy day to see with your own eyes and hear why Final Cut Pro X had to break away from the past to be the future of cinema editing... that is here TODAY? https://vimeo.com/73797466

If you have no desire to inform yourself... one (among many) noteworthy statements within the above short video: FCPX thru it's new frameworks i.e. rewrite, has created an App platform and SDK, where Apple is no longer required to add functionality that users desire and want in their upgrades.

*Puns-galore summary: Apple is the "seed" that creates the "core" for other developers to build into a multi-branched and healthy tree.

What they have already done with iOS and FCPX, they can surely accomplish with an Office Suite. Patience with an open mind is all that is needed.

* OK... beat me with a TB cable! 1smoking.gif
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #89 of 216
Sorry... but one more thing is needed:

People to quit calling themselves "professionals" in anything, if they can't read, research, practice safe computing, or be bothered to at least "try" something different before ranting on the Internet about what any company should do with their products.

The only "Professional" I see in those people is followed by the quantifier "Loser"! 1oyvey.gif
Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #90 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by glnf View Post

The FCP fiasco was not the introduction of FCPX. Everyone was looking forward to a revamp of FCP. The fiasco was the way Apple pulled the whole of the Final Cut Pro Studio from the market over night. No more Apple Color, no more DVD Studio Pro, no more Final Cut Server and on top FCPX could not and still can't open FCP documents. So if you bought a new computer there was no legal way to continue your work on it. For a professional product there is nothing more extreme you can do to alienate your customers. Agree?

Agree with the first point, in that Apple never should have pulled FCP 7 at the same time.
Quote:
And what about being a tad more friendly?

Need a hug? Embrace a "tree". (see my above post) 1smoking.gif
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Knowing what you are talking about would help you understand why you are so wrong. By "Realistic" - AI Forum Member
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post #91 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linguist View Post

Of course I can uninstall the new versions, or just not "upgrade" to them at all. But you haven't told me how to get the old ones for a new machine, or what to do when Apple "uninstalls" the old ones in a future OS X update, or why I should buy into the notion that unlike Micr$oft products, my day to day productivity software won't be seeing any more updates in the future, or why I should be happy that a formerly professional presentation program has been reduced to something suitable for not much more than fifth grade book reports. None of this is inevitable, but it follows from Apple's ongoing dumbing-down of OS X in favor of iOS.

 

So tell me, since you're so desperate to use the "dumbing-down" narrative, how has OSX been "dumbed-down"? Provide a list. I use it for hours a day for professional work, am familiar with every corner of the OS, and I have only seen it get more powerful (especially mavericks), not less, and have not seen a single instance of "dumbing-down" in any of my workflows. People have been shrieking and concern trolling about how Apple is gonna replace OSX with iOS since the iPhone was first released, and since that hasn't happened, people like you will ignore the reality and stick to the same talking points anyway. Microsoft is the one that decided to slap a mobile UI on the desktop, shoving it down the throats of all users with a mouse and KB, not Apple, and there isn't a shred of evidence that they intend to. So enough with the FUD. What they HAVE been doing, is rebuilding applications from the ground up to take advantage of modern frameworks and technologies. After getting accustomed to FCPX, I could NEVER go back to verson 7.X. Its superior in all the major ways, and it's getting back all features of the old one. The same will happen with the new iWork. In the meantime, those who are ACTUALLY impeded by the new one (and not those who are pretending to be impeded by hitching their wagons to the hate fest) can continue to use the current version, which I imagine will be very easy to find for the forseeable future. There is no situation where someone would be "screwed" with this update, unless they're utterly negligent. 

 

What I like about Apple is that they're ambitious, and unlike other companies, and are not scared about going back to the drawing board to make a superior product, which always pays off in the long-term, even though they know there will be whining and bitching along the way. They look at the big picture. 

post #92 of 216
Mind boggeling! Why would apple choose to make such stupid changes!
post #93 of 216

You can also ad Aperture to this... Too

post #94 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post
 

Well - that certainly makes sense from a business perspective.  My employees have to figure out which version of the apps to open which versions of the files? .. Now I have to train my users to save the document somewhere and check it out before opening it so that know which version of the app to use before opening it?  Make everyone start sharing docs in "doc" format?  This makes no business sense whosoever.  This is why Apple has trouble penetrating the business market. 

 

Concern troll.  

 

Your employees and users don't have to do anything given that the number of iWork 09 mac users are tiny.  Vocal perhaps but miniscule.  Essentially zero.  We have a few thousands macs where I work.  I have NEVER gotten a pages or keynote file from anyone.  Even from the real Apple fanbois.  It just isn't widely used for business.

 

When we cycle over to new machines, should I want to use keynote or pages, at least I have the confidence that if the other person has a mac, they can read my docs natively.  But frankly, until Apple provides a pages and keynote reader on Windows it still isn't likely to happen.

post #95 of 216
Originally Posted by mstone View Post
 

 

Only if I input text somewhere before closing the tab, but that’s standard behavior.

 

Originally Posted by iampatrick View Post
You can also ad Aperture to this... Too

 

Why, since nothing was removed?

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #96 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

Apple does need to realize that they have picked up a lot of new customers over the years that just are not very technically inclined i.e for example: using Google or searching in the App Store for a "diff tool". Or even simpler: make a quick folder anywhere with "Test Docs", dropping copies into it and checking out the features and/or lack there of to decide whether to trust a new program with your "live" and valuable originals. This is computing 101... but alas, no one has held their hands yet to show them the way.
 

 

It's unfortunate that most users aren't accustomed to these sorts of best practices. The technical users who observe these practices, who probably already use version control tools like git or kalaidescope, probably aren't the ones caught off-guard by the changes in iWork.

 

Quote:
 Apple will ALWAYs risk going 2 steps backwards to further their goals moving into the future. No company, prevailing school of thought ,or even their current customers and fans will get in the way of them realizing their vision of computing for the future. Steve Jobs DNA does most certainly live on in this company!

The thing is, sometimes these two steps backward seem avoidable. For example, Apple might keep the previous iWork available for download until the new one restores feature parity.

post #97 of 216

What does compatibility between Mac OS and iOS versions have to do with removing features from Mac OS version?  Couldn't they just add the features to the iOS version while leaving the Mac OS version intact?

 

What does "it's a brand-new version" have to do with missing features?  Does that mean you delete all your previous work from your servers, delete all the previous code from your records, and pretend that those previous versions never existed?

 

Before this update, many people were saying every Mac user should replace Microsoft Office with iWork.  Now they are backpedaling and saying iWork is not for advanced users or 'power users'.

post #98 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
 

 

So tell me, since you're so desperate to use the "dumbing-down" narrative, how has OSX been "dumbed-down"? Provide a list. I use it for hours a day for professional work, am familiar with every corner of the OS, and I have only seen it get more powerful (especially mavericks), not less, and have not seen a single instance of "dumbing-down" in any of my workflows. 

 

People could give examples of things that do not work properly in Mavericks, some of which are problems which existed in previous versions of Mac OS X and are still not fixed in Mavericks.  But you would just respond by saying things like who cares, I don't use those features, get used to it, it's a feature not a bug, etc.

post #99 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by runbuh View Post

What if I only have the new version (because I'm a new Mac user) and someone wants me to read a file created with the old version?

Open it and restore previous version. Or open it with preview if you so prefer.
post #100 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by racingbull View Post


Open it and restore previous version. Or open it with preview if you so prefer.


How do I open it and get the content since the new version strips out of the content created using the (now) unsupported features?  I can't edit the document with Preview.

post #101 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post
 

 

Concern troll.  

 

Your employees and users don't have to do anything given that the number of iWork 09 mac users are tiny.  Vocal perhaps but miniscule.  Essentially zero.  We have a few thousands macs where I work.  I have NEVER gotten a pages or keynote file from anyone.  Even from the real Apple fanbois.  It just isn't widely used for business.

 

When we cycle over to new machines, should I want to use keynote or pages, at least I have the confidence that if the other person has a mac, they can read my docs natively.  But frankly, until Apple provides a pages and keynote reader on Windows it still isn't likely to happen.

 

I agree with you 100% that it's not a serious business tool.  At this rate, it won't ever be.

post #102 of 216
I wouldn't be surprised if the update adds these features. isn't this new release 64 bit? I think what happened is they couldn't get ALL of the features re-written for 64 bit, so the released what they had and then release an update to add new features and the ones that were left out. Kind of a FCPX issue. Remember, moving from 32 to 64 requires a full re-write. It's either that or waiting even longer for the version. I guess they decided to release what they had in the mean time.

They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Oh well, it's not the end of the world, so I can wait.
post #103 of 216
Slurpy write:
All that ranting and raving, when you could have simply to used iWork09, as the new apps DO NOT REPLACE THE OLD ONES. I repeat: ALL IWORK 2009 APPS ARE STILL ON YOUR MAC. Etc etc

I posted this same point but got the reasonable response: 'with Apple's R&D budget, is this the best they can come up with ?'

It's meant to be a upgrade, and quite clearly it's not. With virtually unlimited money, and no time constraints, is this the best word processor the world's best software company can produce ?

Sad, isn't it ?
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post #104 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Nobody with serious work responsibilities would have ONLY THE COPY OF THE DOCUMENT THEY’VE NOW OPENED IN THE NEW VERSION OF IWORK, and therefore would simply restore from the most recent compatible backup.

Agreed!

 

However - wouldn't it have been nice if Apple provided some release notes that said something to the effect of "The following features are no longer supported" and "Content which uses the listed deprecated features will be removed from documents opened by this release "?  Maybe even provide a warning that a given document you are trying to open uses features that are no longer supported and content will be unusable or deleted?  That way, no one would have to worry about doing a restore in the first place.

 

It's all about setting and managing expectations.  Apple (to a certain extent), and the computer industry as a whole, have set the expectation of backwards compatibility.   Xcode still compiles my old crappy apps.  Mail still reads my old emails (and still talks to my old servers), Preview reads my ten year old PDF files, etc.

 

Therefore, in the absence of other information coming from Apple, users should reasonably expect that the new versions of the iWork apps fully support the documents created with the previous versions of the iWork apps.  To push out a new version that literally breaks your documents, and to not tell you in advance that it's going to break your documents, is very poor customer service.

post #105 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
 

 

All that ranting and raving, when you could have simply to used iWork09, as the new apps DO NOT REPLACE THE OLD ONES. I repeat: ALL IWORK 2009 APPS ARE STILL ON YOUR MAC. Jesus Christ, some of you people are unbelievable, attempting to ignore some basic facts and twist reality so you can use the "apple fucked up and ruined my life" narrative. And no, the document didn't "automatically save". That does not happen. You explicitly saved it, and explicitly chose to replace the old one, instead of making a copy, or a million other things that would have exercised some caution. Even if that did happen, you could have (and still can) use time machine to get the older version back. But yeah, keep making shit up, and ignoring obvious and plentiful solutions,  in order to sensationalize the situation. 

 

They just want to complain about something Apple probably already knew.  It's either release what they announced the same date or wait another month for the complete re-write. 

If they didn't release the product when they did and waited for the app to be 100% complete, they would have waited another couple of weeks or a month, etc. and be bitching that they DIDN'T releasee it.

 

I don't know why people get all pissy about it.  There has never been a 100% fully working, bug free app ever released the first time they release an app or a new major update to an app or OS for that matter. 


It's probably just waiting for the balance of the features to be re-written and tested.  I'm not worried, I've been using Personal Computers since the late 70's, and everything seems to always get resolved.

 

Patience is a virtue and some don't any or have very little.

post #106 of 216
This reminds me of a major OS release that didn't have some major features and bugs and they weren't fixed for a year. But the company that did this wasn't Apple, it was Microsoft with Windows 8. It didn't have the Start button and other features and a few bugs.

But I don't think users will have to wait a year for Apple to release it's update to add back in the features it was missing.

I guess the best advice is to sit back and have a cream soda.
post #107 of 216
Apple gets backlash from some users about something that may or may not be a major issue for the vast majority of users.

Happens so often it could be a template. Just fill in the product name and publish

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #108 of 216
They may relent and find someway to accomodate the users in an update. They may not. But since we're complaining, bring back Appleworks 6, it was my favorite.
post #109 of 216
Originally Posted by WisdomSeed View Post
They may relent and find someway to accomodate the users in an update. They may not. But since we're complaining, bring back Appleworks 6, it was my favorite.

 

Dude, I loved it. I have coworkers that still prefer it over iWork. :p

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #110 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht View Post


Your employees and users don't have to do anything given that the number of iWork 09 mac users are tiny.  Vocal perhaps but miniscule.  Essentially zero.  We have a few thousands macs where I work.  I have NEVER gotten a pages or keynote file from anyone.  Even from the real Apple fanbois.  It just isn't widely used for business.

When we cycle over to new machines, should I want to use keynote or pages, at least I have the confidence that if the other person has a mac, they can read my docs natively.  But frankly, until Apple provides a pages and keynote reader on Windows it still isn't likely to happen.

Good points, and frankly the biggest issue long after any killed features are put back. I have also never received a document file in the format of ANY Apple wp, layout or presentation program. And though I occasionally used them myself I never dared sending it off without first exporting it to a format the receiver could actually read.

It's the proverbial tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it. It really doesn't much matter how much damage it did.
Edited by jlandd - 10/29/13 at 11:37am
post #111 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

Apple gets backlash from some users about something that may or may not be a major issue for the vast majority of users.

Happens so often it could be a template. Just fill in the product name and publish

Maybe Apple should start posting coupons for a free cream soda.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms7XqvUPq8Q

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_MSg8CyvEM

post #112 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobsonmyface View Post

The dumbing down continues. Did apple learn nothing from the FCX fiasco or are they still too arrogant?

More like did the users learn nothing from the FCP rewrite

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #113 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post
 

No rtf support in Pages?  That's huge.  Some things can't be handled by TextEdit.

 

RTF/RTFD is the foundation format text document type and custom directory extension since the days of NeXTSTEP 1.0. RTF/RTFD have been built into TextEdit.app since it was a demo app with OpenStep.

 

Send a request to Mike Ferris and the dev team to address the boundaries you are referencing.

post #114 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post
 

 

RTF/RTFD is the foundation format text document type and custom directory extension since the days of NeXTSTEP 1.0. RTF/RTFD have been built into TextEdit.app since it was a demo app with OpenStep.

 

Send a request to Mike Ferris and the dev team to address the boundaries you are referencing.

You might want to mention HOW and WHICH Mike Ferris to contact.  There is a musician named Mike Ferris that comes up and I don't think he will do anything about it.....  :-)

 

If Mike works for Apple, then maybe it should be the www.apple.com/feedback site will at least get it routed to the developers at Apple for the Apple app in question.

post #115 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

All that ranting and raving, when you could have simply to used iWork09, as the new apps DO NOT REPLACE THE OLD ONES. I repeat: ALL IWORK 2009 APPS ARE STILL ON YOUR MAC. Jesus Christ, some of you people are unbelievable, attempting to ignore some basic facts and twist reality so you can use the "apple fucked up and ruined my life" narrative. And no, the document didn't "automatically save". That does not happen. You explicitly saved it, and explicitly chose to replace the old one, instead of making a copy, or a million other things that would have exercised some caution. Even if that did happen, you could have (and still can) use time machine to get the older version back. But yeah, keep making shit up, and ignoring obvious and plentiful solutions,  in order to sensationalize the situation. 
Sure it can..But i a curios.. Why should the newer version be less capable with less features? It does not compute! Why did apple make such in idiotic move!?????
post #116 of 216

It's not unusable. I use it with ease all day everyday. Who are these idiots that can't use it?

 

Why do you need to script Pages? I've not understood that one and let's face it Apple's been slowly removing scripting from their apps for ages so you'd have to be a blind chimpanzee for not seeing that one coming.

 

iWork is not designed for corporates it's designed for consumers and most consumers don't care about scripting they just want an office application that can allow them to create documents and spreadsheets. Guess what Pages and Numbers do?

 

These are NOT unusable products so stop lying.

post #117 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yojimbo007 View Post

Sure it can..But i a curios.. Why should the newer version be less capable with less features? It does not compute! Why did apple make such in idiotic move!?????

Your inability to comprehend another's motives does not mean it's idiotic.
post #118 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by robogobo View Post

I've been actively participating in the Apple Discussion Forums the past couple days, and I'm shocked at how childish some users can be. The guy who's compiling the list is a level 7 user, and he's been trash talking Apple on his thread, adding hopelessness to the already heated discussion by drawing conclusions about how Apple has abandoned its users and is intentionally damaging their data, AND HE HASN'T EVEN USED THE NEW VERSION! Of course if you try to jump in as the calm voice of reason the angry mob will thrash you. It's obvious they just want to whine and cry like babies.

Here's the kicker. THERE IS NO DATA LOSS!!!

This whole hubbub is for nothing. Sure, features have been removed. But the heat of the argument is over alleged data loss. All one has to do, even without Time Machine, is go to Flie > Revert to > Browse All Versions and you can restore the pre 5.0 version from within 5.0, close it (don't save!) and all is right again. You can delete 5.0 from your system and go back to using '09 with joy and happiness. Once Apple restores all the missing features, which they will do if proper, mature feedback is given, then you can upgrade.

The moral of the story is, test before upgrading, especially if business is on the line, and for goodness sake backup, backup, backup. Oh, and don't be a whiny baby when things go wrong. This is software and it will always have bugs and glitches. ALWAYS.

Please tell me the wisdom of removing features from the newer version and making it functionally inferior to previous version?
post #119 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by akqies View Post

Your inability to comprehend another's motives does not mean it's idiotic.

Please enlighten me... What is the wisdom in making a newer software less capable that its older version ? It is called an upgrade. Not a down grade...
post #120 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

RTF/RTFD is the foundation format text document type and custom directory extension since the days of NeXTSTEP 1.0. RTF/RTFD have been built into TextEdit.app since it was a demo app with OpenStep.

Send a request to Mike Ferris and the dev team to address the boundaries you are referencing.

Hi mdriftmeyer, I think you're misunderstanding me. I meant that many people wouldn't want to turn to TextEdit every time they need rtf because it's just a text editor not a word processor.

Or am. I misunderstanding you? : )
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