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Intel to start manufacturing third-party ARM chips in 2014 - Page 2

post #41 of 64

Did some forget what Samsung did to Apple? I doubt Apple will use another competing supplier such as Intel. 

post #42 of 64
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post
Did some forget what Samsung did to Apple? I doubt Apple will use another competing supplier such as Intel. 

 

Competing supplier? Does Intel make its own computers? Apple has been using Intel since 2006. The only thing Intel did to them was steal the “ultrabook” concept and try to pass it off as their own.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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post #43 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by enzos View Post

> battle to relinquish ARM's stranglehold <</span>

Never use a big word unless it a) is more apt than a small one, and b) has the intended meaning. 

You're welcome!

I doesn't seem to make sense either!
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini, SE30, IIFx, Towers; G4 & G3.
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post #44 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexus View Post
 

Was about to say...heh

 

Either way, yes, Intel combining ARM IP with it's own X86-64 interpretation doesn't seem that impossible I would agree(After all, AMD is already doing so for embedded applications at least). Though part of me would like IA64 to get an ARM pairing, it's not very good as far as I see, being that ARM already does parallel very well, and Itanium is basically a giant parallel chip. That, and Itanium is expensive enough on it's own/X86-64 is everywhere else mostly.

Along with what we are expecting to see from nVidia with project Denver I think there is room for convergence where it makes sense. However simply mashing technology together is meaningless unless it provides some value. I wouldn't think it too far of a stretch to see Apple build a Universal kernel (at least for OSX) that can run on x86-64 and ARM instruction sets simultaneously; automatically switching to what is best suited for the task at hand. A Grand Central Dispatch concept at the kernel level paired with concepts in OSX Mavericks could result in meaningful battery life improvements. A MacBook Air that could power off the more power hungry x86-64 cores and operate like an iPad for Safari, Mail, and much of the background tasks built in to Mavericks could prove to be an extremely flexible device.

 

Safari could largely be run on ARM cores, only powering up the x86-64 cores for things like Flash containers. Extending the technologies like App Nap in this way would be a meaningful use of such a pairing of technologies. I believe we may see this happen regardless of Intel's move into the ARM space. With nVidia's project Denver, I believe we will see ARM cores acting as co-processors through OpenCL on all GPU's in a matter of a few years. As mentioned before I don't see this as something unique to Apple, Microsoft stands to benefit their Surface Pro offerings as well as convertible tablet/ultra books. Needless to say, this revelation has some pretty profound implications and it will be interesting to see where the market takes us over the next few years.

post #45 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post
 

Did some forget what Samsung did to Apple? I doubt Apple will use another competing supplier such as Intel. 

Intel and Samsung do business in completely different sectors/methods.

 

Samsung largely provides entire products and has components on a side business. (TV's, Camera's, Phones, Tablets, Computers, Printers ect.. )

 

Intel is the exact opposite. It's main business is components, the only fully fledged products they offer(if you could call them that), is the NUC(which is not even complete, it's barebones), and the occasional Self-preassembled server(when it's not offering it through it's partners as opposed to itself).

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Also PopinFRESH, I agree with your post.

post #46 of 64
I wonder if I can get a bank to relinquish me a loan?
post #47 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post
 

Did some forget what Samsung did to Apple? I doubt Apple will use another competing supplier such as Intel. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Competing supplier? Does Intel make its own computers? Apple has been using Intel since 2006. The only thing Intel did to them was steal the “ultrabook” concept and try to pass it off as their own.

 

I agree that Intel doesn't directly compete with Apple like Samsung does. I disagree that Intel stole the ultrabook concept to pass off as their own. They simply agreed with the vision that Apple had for the notebook market and sought to provide a reference for other manufactures that make up a large part of their revenue. I think the same outcome would have taken place without Intel's ultrabook specification; just over a longer period of time.

 

Also, Samsung has shown they will use confidential information without regard to it's confidentiality. They did so with Apple's licensing agreements and I'm sure Apple does not care to trust them with their ARM innovations. Apple will likely move most of their chip production to TSMC and should Intel offer reasonable production terms I would argue that Apple would happily use Intel as a foundry. Intel is well suited to meet the demands and yields Apple would need and has invaluable expertise as a foundry. 

post #48 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Competing supplier? Does Intel make its own computers? Apple has been using Intel since 2006. The only thing Intel did to them was steal the “ultrabook” concept and try to pass it off as their own.

 

Intel has been manufacturing the Ax chip? No! What has happened to Apple time and time again when they share intellectual property with another company who could easily take that knowledge and add to their own? Like Samsung did/does with copying Apple, if Apple teams up with Intel on the Ax chip, Intel will have advanced knowledge on Apples IP. They probably won't be able to 'copy', however, people don't know what they don't know until they are shown. Once you know, you can always 'change enough' to be legal. 

post #49 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexus View Post
 

Intel and Samsung do business in completely different sectors/methods.

 

Samsung largely provides entire products and has components on a side business. (TV's, Camera's, Phones, Tablets, Computers, Printers ect.. )

 

Intel is the exact opposite. It's main business is components, the only fully fledged products they offer(if you could call them that), is the NUC(which is not even complete, it's barebones), and the occasional Self-preassembled server(when it's not offering it through it's partners as opposed to itself).

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Also PopinFRESH, I agree with your post.

 

 

Exactly my point. So when Apple is designing new Ax chips, why would you want a competitor to have advanced knowledge of your design/capabilities? Going back to the not knowing what you don't know until you are shown, but once you know, you can copy. I rather the competition copy after the release of the product, not designing the copy while manufacturing the product. 

post #50 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post
 

 

 

Exactly my point. So when Apple is designing new Ax chips, why would you want a competitor to have advanced knowledge of your design/capabilities? Going back to the not knowing what you don't know until you are shown, but once you know, you can copy.

So you think....The world's most advanced chip manufacturer, which doesn't compete in direct consumer markets, with about a dozen multi-billion fabrication facilities, is desperate enough, despite still profiting in the billions to engage in industrial espionage.

 

What is this I don't even....

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If Apple didn't want anyone to know the designs of their chips, then they wouldn't be fabless. Period.

post #51 of 64

I would hope that this customer is apple.  Intel has the worlds most advanced fabs and are currently seeding 14nm and 10 nm samples.  Apple has a good relationship with Intel and this could very well be what is happening.  Time will tell.  Anything that gets Apple away from samsung is good news, so I hope that this is what is going on.  With the statement being that there going to produce 64bit arm and apple having the only 64 bit arm chip at the moment in mass production, it very well could be Apple.

post #52 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexus View Post
 

So you think....The world's most advanced chip manufacturer, which doesn't compete in direct consumer markets, with about a dozen multi-billion fabrication facilities, is desperate enough, despite still profiting in the billions to engage in industrial espionage.

 

What is this I don't even....

---

If Apple didn't want anyone to know the designs of their chips, then they wouldn't be fabless. Period.

Lol Apple worked with intel for over 2 years to get the core 2 duo die package size down to fit in the first macbook air.  That was announced by intel's ceo ottilini himself when the air was introduced in the keynote with Steve Jobs.  So I think that Apple's relationship with Intel is really good.  I doubt that intel would be in this for industrial espionage.


Edited by Mechanic - 10/30/13 at 6:25pm
post #53 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post
 

Lol Apple worked with intel for over 2 years to get the core 2 duo die size down to fit in the first macbook air.  That was announced by intel's ceo ottilini himself when the air was introduced in the keynote with Steve Jobs.  So I think that Apple's relationship with Intel is really good.  I doubt that intel would be in this for industrial espionage.

That was the point I was trying to make lol

post #54 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by PopinFRESH View Post
 

This is somewhat surprising because Intel's executives alluded to a willingness to be a foundry as long as it involved Intel's own architecture. This piece about Stacey Smith echoes similar comments made by then CEO Paul Otellini to that effect.

 

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2011/05/intel-exec-throws-fuel-on-the-intel-to-fab-apple-chips-rumor-fire/

 

http://allthingsd.com/20110607/arm-twisting-intel-to-fab-chips-for-apple/

 

Since then Apple has moved to production of their own SoC designs, relations with Samsung have further soured, and Intel has continued to see little penetration of their Atom SoC's. As a couple other readers pointed out, I believe Intel is now hedging their bets as to the future of computing. They are likely trying to straddle the fence as ultra low power, "good enough", devices displace traditional computing platforms for general purpose consumption. Thus they will not collapse under their own weight should they fail to deliver a mobile SoC that is price competitive and superior performance per watt on general purpose tasks. If they can't win over the mobile device (smartphones, tablets, watches, etc) markets and convince them to use Intel Architecture then generating revenue as an extremely innovative foundry is better than receiving nothing.

 

With this revelation I would not be surprised to see Intel secure an agreement with Apple to produce Apple designed ARM chips. This would be a fairly large shift in the mobile computing landscape and I think Intel recognizes that. There is another aspect to consider which could also be driving Intel down this path. Consider Microsoft's direction with Windows 8 which is arguably a schizophrenic operating system trying to straddle the fence as well. With this move Intel will begin to gain more experience with producing ARM based SoC's. Would it be a shock to see an Intel chip that pairs an ARM SoC with Intel Architecture. Imagine a chip that could sleep all of the IA64 cores while running the New UI apps on a Windows 9 machine; While I do acknowledge the complexity of such a suggestion, I wouldn't be surprised to see such a convergence.

I think your use of the term 'production of' should be replaced with 'designed'   Apple hasn't produced a single chip.

 

And Intel isn't hedging ARM vs x86... their manufacturing fab division is hedging that Intel chip production can't drive 100% capacity.

 

And Microsoft's schizo aspect isn't the fact that Win8 is running on multiple architectures (isn't the first... NT was developed on 3 distinct archs, and was released on Alpha as well as X86)... it's the fact they are a PC  manufacturer and a SW supplier to OEMs.

 

I don't see Apple moving to Intel because of Intel's ARM experience... it will be that they can deliver a non Intel design system with high QA marks, and not allow IP to leak over into the Intel's chip design team.   If Apple can 'trust' Intel to partner with them, they will move their ARM foundry  to them no questions asked (if the price is right), because it makes sense.

 

As for that last point... doubtful.  Unless Apple or HP or Lenovo (or MS) asks for it, It make no sense to do.  It makes sense for Apple to do it on an ARM chip, but not for Intel to build a dual use SoC that provides a transition off of x86.

post #55 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post
 

Lol Apple worked with intel for over 2 years to get the core 2 duo die package size down to fit in the first macbook air.  That was announced by intel's ceo ottilini himself when the air was introduced in the keynote with Steve Jobs.  So I think that Apple's relationship with Intel is really good.  I doubt that intel would be in this for industrial espionage.

exactly... however, Apple still has to see Intel prove that they aren't gonna steal IP that gives MS a catch-up capability.

post #56 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post
 

exactly... however, Apple still has to see Intel prove that they aren't gonna steal IP that gives MS a catch-up capability.

Considering that MS has been advertising and desperately subsidizing RT tablets, I can't imagine Intel is too happy with them.

post #57 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexus View Post
 

So you think....The world's most advanced chip manufacturer, which doesn't compete in direct consumer markets, with about a dozen multi-billion fabrication facilities, is desperate enough, despite still profiting in the billions to engage in industrial espionage.

 

What is this I don't even....

---

If Apple didn't want anyone to know the designs of their chips, then they wouldn't be fabless. Period.

 

Yup, seems odd, and I agree, and have posted before about Apple getting their own fabs. 

 

What I do know is Apple has many creative people who drive themselves to think of unique solutions. Can Apple at some point design ARM SOCs with technology Intel has not thought of? I don't see why not. Would Intel have early knowledge of this if they FAB the chips, yes. Would they use that knowledge to advance their own ARM processors? You bet! 

 

I just don't think Apple would risk that. But again, I did think Apple would go plastic on their phones :) 

post #58 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post
 

Lol Apple worked with intel for over 2 years to get the core 2 duo die package size down to fit in the first macbook air.  That was announced by intel's ceo ottilini himself when the air was introduced in the keynote with Steve Jobs.  So I think that Apple's relationship with Intel is really good.  I doubt that intel would be in this for industrial espionage.

 

I would not put the Mac and the iOS platforms in the same conversation as you have. Apple worked with Intel on an Intel product. Intel processors in a Mac is not the Mac's advantage point. Apple custom makes ARM chips and uses that as an advantage (and will so even more over time) in their iOS products. If Intel worked with Apple on the Ax/Mx and they had an advantage other mobile platforms did not, why would Intel not use that knowledge on their ARM processors and release them to the market (aka Apple's competition), in not the possible 2 year lead, but the following year? Would this be a copy of Apple's design? Probably not, but we've also seen from court that even copying does not matter. More likely this would give them the opportunity to take Apple's design and make it their own, unique design, but having the same process outcome. 

 

Maybe this is just my paranoia, or maybe this is just keeping IP out of the hands of those who make competing products for as long as you can. 

post #59 of 64
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

Can Apple at some point design ARM SOCs with technology Intel has not thought of? I don't see why not. Would Intel have early knowledge of this if they FAB the chips, yes. Would they use that knowledge to advance their own ARM processors? You bet! 

 

Intel doesn't make ARM Chips for itself. So, using Apple's knowledge for a mythical product isn't exactly the most rational concern I've ever heard.

Intel is committed to X86. Dumping it for ARM would mean Intel would be at the mercy of ARM holdings. Something that doesn't happen with Intel's X86 line. It makes little to no sense. X86 with ARM IP is a different story. Regardless of how good or not Apple's ARM IP is, Intel will always want to make sure X86 is ultimately undisputed unless they themselves can come up with something to supersede it that doesn't involve relinquishing control.

See: Intel Itanium

 

Two: In case no one has noticed, Intel is trying to expand it's foundry business. NOBODY will use Intel if they just start stealing secrets and handing it off to competitors. It's irrational thought and a stupid move for a company attempting to stay at the top of its game.


Edited by Jexus - 10/30/13 at 8:45pm
post #60 of 64
Wintel lost the mobile race plain and simple.

Microsoft's phone and tablets are in last place as are Intel market in mobile as well.

Apple and Google have taken the lead. Samsung follows with shameless copies.
post #61 of 64

Folks are missing the real reason why Intel is making this move: because Samsung is getting really, really big and walking off with the entire mobile chip business.  As their volumes increase and the chips become ever more sophisticated, they're become a chip fab powerhouse with the kind of volume it takes to rival even Intel when it comes to process advancements.  That's a direct threat to Intel's primary competitive advantage - the best fabs in the industry.

 

This is all about attracting the most advanced ARM designs to Intel's fabs, so they can maintain their advantage over all rivals when it comes to chip fabrication.  They simply can't afford to let Samsung continue to function as a major fab for other device manufacturers - the volumes are becoming enormous and the chips very advanced.  If left unchecked, it would provide Samsung with the revenues and volumes to finance a lot of research, development and plant-building - enough to make them an equal to Intel even at the very high end.

 

This is something Intel cannot afford.

 

Look for them to cut some sweet deals with Apple over the next year.

post #62 of 64

It would be great if Apple could start getting ARM chips from Intel. The combination of Apple's world leading designs and Intel's world leading fabrication would give the iPad/iPhone an even bigger tech lead.

post #63 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexus View Post
 

Intel doesn't make ARM Chips for itself. So, using Apple's knowledge for a mythical product isn't exactly the most rational concern I've ever heard.

Intel is committed to X86. Dumping it for ARM would mean Intel would be at the mercy of ARM holdings. Something that doesn't happen with Intel's X86 line. It makes little to no sense. X86 with ARM IP is a different story. Regardless of how good or not Apple's ARM IP is, Intel will always want to make sure X86 is ultimately undisputed unless they themselves can come up with something to supersede it that doesn't involve relinquishing control.

See: Intel Itanium

 

Two: In case no one has noticed, Intel is trying to expand it's foundry business. NOBODY will use Intel if they just start stealing secrets and handing it off to competitors. It's irrational thought and a stupid move for a company attempting to stay at the top of its game.

 

 

I was not suggesting Intel dropping x86 for ARM. 

 

What I did do is not read 'third-party' and therefore concluded Intel to manufacture their own ARM processor. Ugh! My bad- again! I really must slow down and read all the words and the article {shaking head} 

 

Sorry, jumped the shark on this one. 

post #64 of 64

One big part of the story that isn't being reported here is that Altera doesn't make chips for smartphones and tablets.  They make FPGAs.  The story is that Intel will manufacture Altera FPGAs (based on ARM technology).

 

The story here unfortunately isn't as big as people are making it out to be.  This isn't a story about Intel "giving up" on x86 in the mobile markets.  Altera doesn't compete with Intel, so Intel's willing to manufacture their chips.  We have yet to see if Intel will ever produce an application processor ARM-based SoC that goes into phones and tablets.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

Sure Apple can use Intel. Apple has the only 64-big ARM chip in a smartphone and tablet. And soon it will have AppleTV. Someone has to make all those chips.

 

Just a technical point here - as I understand it, what's unique to Apple is that it has the only 64-bit mobile operating system.  Sure the A7 chip itself is 64-bit compatible, but so are Intel's Atom-based chips.  The day before the A7 was announced, Intel specifically said at their developer forum that their new tablet chip (Bay Trail) was 64-bit capable.  It's just that Android and other mobile OS solutions do not support 64-bit.  So it's not the chip that makes Apple unique here, it's the OS.

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