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Apple-backed patent consortium sues Google, major Android manufacturers - Page 2

post #41 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I should have /s'd that. Rockstar is not a typical patent troll. Although, it does not make any actual product, its backers do. target marketing in iAds but, they certainly were not doing it before Google. I have a feeling this is going to get messy and probably won't end well for either party.

Are you familiar with MOSAID? They've been described as one of the biggest patent trolls on the planet, filing lawsuits against Apple on occasion as well as dozens of other techs. They have backers too that make real products. Wanna know who they are? Nokia and Microsoft.
http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2012/03/microsoft-and-nokia-sue-apple-for-patent-infringement-through-a-holding-company.html
http://www.macworld.com/article/1165717/mosaid_subsidiary_sues_apple_over_wireless_patents.html

How is Rockstar Consortium any different except for a couple of the players?
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post #42 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Are you familiar with MOSAID? They've been described as one of the biggest patent trolls on the planet, filing lawsuits against Apple on occasion as well as dozens of other techs. They have backers too that make real products. Wanna know who they are? Nokia and Microsoft.
http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2012/03/microsoft-and-nokia-sue-apple-for-patent-infringement-through-a-holding-company.html
http://www.macworld.com/article/1165717/mosaid_subsidiary_sues_apple_over_wireless_patents.html

How is Rockstar Consortium any different except for a couple of the players?

"Patent troll" is a needlessly loaded term. How about "Non-Practicing Entity" instead? Personalizing something that is essentially a business and property rights issue is just unnecessary.

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post #43 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


Well, you're just made of money aren't you?

 

It's not my money. I have a friend with a somewhat important mobile site in Texas and we have an arrangement. If he wants his site optimized for a particular device, he buys me one. Cheap for him, and very little work for me. 

post #44 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Are you familiar with MOSAID? They've been described as one of the biggest patent trolls on the planet, filing lawsuits against Apple on occasion as well as dozens of other techs. They have backers too that make real products. Wanna know who they are? Nokia and Microsoft.
http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2012/03/microsoft-and-nokia-sue-apple-for-patent-infringement-through-a-holding-company.html
http://www.macworld.com/article/1165717/mosaid_subsidiary_sues_apple_over_wireless_patents.html

How is Rockstar Consortium any different except for a couple of the players?

 

They aren't. They are a Patent Holding Company, that is engaged in Patent Trolling on behalf of Apple and Microsoft. 

post #45 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


Don't be a putz. Apple, like all companies, are affected in one way or another by intellectual property issues. If you don't create and own your own IP, you may be responsible for violating someone's IP. This is a business reality...in every country as a matter of fact.

 

I'm not being a putz. Patent Trolls are slime, and now Apple and Microsoft are patent trolls in bed with each other. Which is sad and kinda pathetic. 

post #46 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins View Post

I bet that nothing even remotely close to this will matter, especially the last part.
Actually, it's laughable to even think that.
I think this shows google steals everything. Even the foundation of the profit center. Smdh
post #47 of 152
The innovation avengers teamed up to kill the bad guy. That's what google get for blatantly trying to own the internet and openly stealing the very concept of the iPhone so brazenly. Hope these overbearing, malware infested, data hoarding privacy invaders get sued out of existence. They deserve it, it's karma. They'll be shouting about trolls until apple wheel out another billion from under their bridge.
post #48 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

"Patent troll" is a needlessly loaded term. How about "Non-Practicing Entity" instead? Personalizing something that is essentially a business and property rights issue is just unnecessary.

Patent Assertion Entity works too. It's pretty widely recognized that whether you call them PAE's, NPE's or Patent Trolls those names all refer to the same category of patent holders and that category has become especially problematic for all businesses.
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post #49 of 152
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post

Which is sad and kinda pathetic. 

 

Sadder and patheticer is your presence here.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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post #50 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post

I'm not being a putz. Patent Trolls are slime, and now Apple and Microsoft are patent trolls in bed with each other. Which is sad and kinda pathetic. 
The difference is that these companies actually use these technologies. Your beloved Google purchased Moto for their 17,000 patents and attempted to use them against Apple. They just turned out to be worthless. Or committed to standards.
post #51 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by genovelle View Post

The difference is that these companies actually use these technologies. Your beloved Google purchased Moto for their 17,000 patents and attempted to use them against Apple. They just turned out to be worthless. Or committed to standards.

Not siding with ScottWilson but not one single Motorola Mobility patent has been asserted against anyone (much less Apple) since Google purchased them. Unless that proves to you they're worthless since they haven't sued over them I've no idea how you arrived at that conclusion.
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post #52 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post
 

 

You can just feel sorry for players this desperate. Between the e-book price fixing scam, and now bottom feeding patent trolling, I'm losing a lot of respect for Apple. And I don't like that. But you can't really look at it any other way. 

 

Haha, good one.

 

Oh come on, Apple is actually using valid non standard essential patents here. As far as I can tell this is a regular and valid patent lawsuit. This is not to be confused with patent trolls such as Lodsys or even the BS Samsung tried to pull by using standards essential patents aggressively.

 

To be quite honest, after what Google tried to pull on Apple, which includes the times when Eric Schmidt was still on Apple's board and then suddenly Android looked like the first iPhone out of the blue and the latest attempts after acquiring Motorola and trying to use their standards essential patents aggressively, it's about time Apple hits back and sends a clear message. Going after Google's core business is a nice bonus and hopefully teaches them to stop fooling around with others as much as they did in recent years.

 

It is really amusing to see though, how Apple ends up being the bad guys for legitimately defending a product years or R&D went into and everyone copied. But sure, keep on ignoring that by using the "rounded rectangle" excuse...

post #53 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Not siding with ScottWilson but not one single Motorola Mobility patent has been asserted against anyone (much less Apple) since Google purchased them.

The glass house owners decided that throwing more stones would be unwise?
post #54 of 152

More lawsuits! yay

post #55 of 152

Here's an idea: lets see what the industry is calling it.

 

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/google-and-android-partners-sued-by-apple-and-microsoftled-patent-troll-cm295046

 

Case Closed. 

post #56 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post
 

 

 

Apple is a proven patent troll right now. Read the story. What does the title of this story say:

 

"Apple-backed patent consortium sues Google, major Android manufacturers"   <--- Apple is now a patent troll. Period. End of discussion. That is the definition of being one. 

 

Only according to you and your definition of a patent troll. Which is wrong, as are your conclusions.

 

Rockstar is owned by 5 companies. This is the only legitimate way for a group of companies to collectively own a set of patents. Other options are far too messy (like giving some patents to each company and having them all sign complicated cross-licensing agreements between them). This would also require a significant effort to even accomplish as how do you decide what each patent is worth and who gets it? Further, if a patent is used to get license fees, how are they divided up (does Apple collect for its portion of patents and then distribute any monies they get to the others, or does it go into some separate joint account and distributed later).

 

You are a troll. Period. End of discussion. Welcome to the block list (as I hope others will do until you fade away and disappear like all the other losers before you).

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post #57 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

The glass house owners decided that throwing more stones would be unwise?

That could certainly be one reason. After all they had a fairly long history of asserting IP in courtrooms. Look how many times they sued over their search patents to shut down newcomers and lesser competitors. Oh wait. . .
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post #58 of 152

That gentleman in the picture is truly my Rockstar Hero! ;)

 

Keep up the good work, folks.

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....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

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post #59 of 152

I don't think Google took this issue seriously until it was too late (who can forget their infamous pi $billion bid?).  Yes, they entered the bidding for the Nortel patents, but to at least some extent, I think they were simply trying to bid the price up and make the acquisition as expensive as possible for their competitors.  Also keep in mind that Google was INVITED to join the Rockstar consortium and they refused. 

 

Losing out on the Nortel patents directly led to them overpaying for a money pit in Motorola Mobility.  Yes, Motorola included a treasure trove of patents, but the most valuable ones had already been released into patent pools on FRAND licensing terms, which limits their value in litigation relative to other patents that are not part of industry standards.  The Nortel patents that Rockstar has wielded in this lawsuit do not fall under FRAND, which makes them potentially more dangerous to a defendant. 

 

I knew about the telecom patents in the Nortel collection, but I didn't know that those patents also included search-linked advertising.  To me, that's the real story because Google's entire business model is built around the cash flow that search ads generate.  Android and Chrome are worthless to Google without the advertising tie-ins, as are Gmail and all of their other "free" services.  Any search ad-related patent decision would cut to the core of about 90% of Google's revenues.   Because of this, it just seems shocking to me that Google wouldn't have done everything in their power to acquire the Nortel patents.  Did they not do the due diligence on what Nortel's patents contained?  Or are they betting on the courts invalidating those particular patents?  Should be interesting to see how things unfold.

post #60 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Only according to you and your definition of a patent troll. Which is wrong, as are your conclusions.

Rockstar is owned by 5 companies. This is the only legitimate way for a group of companies to collectively own a set of patents. Other options are far too messy (like giving some patents to each company and having them all sign complicated cross-licensing agreements between them). This would also require a significant effort to even accomplish as how do you decide what each patent is worth and who gets it? Further, if a patent is used to get license fees, how are they divided up (does Apple collect for its portion of patents and then distribute any monies they get to the others, or does it go into some separate joint account and distributed later).

Approx. 2000 of the original patent trove were reportedly "messily handled" like that, divided up among the players.

"RE: Rockstar Consortium and the testing of the privateer patent monetisation model
Out of the 2000 patents best patents in wireless domain will be transferred to Apple. At the time of auction it was reported that Apple will get Nortel 4G and LTE assets as it is the biggest contributor to the group. (http://www.tangible-ip.com/2011/nortel-post-mortem.htm). Recently ownership of many standard declared patents on ETSI website has been changed from Nortel to Apple. (Example patent family http://ipr.etsi.org/PatentHistory.aspx?Ptid=507).

About 225 US patents were transferred to RIM (second biggest contributor) (http://assignments.uspto.gov/assignments/q?db=pat&asnrd=ROCKSTAR%20BIDCO,%20LP).

EMC was supposed to get ownership of data storage related patents and Ericsson (lowest contributor) was supposed to get only license to all the portfolio. If we assume Ericsson’s contribution ($340mn) as base for license to the portfolio, patents should be distributed as below.

Contribution For acquisition Patents

Apple $2000mn $1660mn 1340

MSFT & Sony $1000mn $320mn 260

RIM $770mn $430mn 350

EMC $400mn $60mn 50

Ericsson $340mn $0mn 0

Assuming Microsoft and Sony need to contribute ($680mn) for license and EMC also took license to the porfolio( which is highly unlikely). Also assuming all 2000 patents are of equal value."
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post #61 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post

I don't think Google took this issue seriously until it was too late (who can forget their infamous pi $billion bid?).  Yes, they entered the bidding for the Nortel patents, but to at least some extent, I think they were simply trying to bid the price up and make the acquisition as expensive as possible for their competitors.  Also keep in mind that Google was INVITED to join the Rockstar consortium and they refused. 

I've seen that claim posted as tho factual a couple of times now. Truly curious if you're aware of any substantiating source for that of if it's just something you heard around here? I'm not aware of any reliable claim that Google was invited to join the Rockstar group and turned it down, but maybe so.
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post #62 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post
 

 

 

Apple is a proven patent troll right now. Read the story. What does the title of this story say:

 

"Apple-backed patent consortium sues Google, major Android manufacturers"   <--- Apple is now a patent troll. Period. End of discussion. That is the definition of being one. 


Oh geez.  Just go back to CNET where your brand of vapid trolling might find a more receptive audience. 

post #63 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post
 

You are a troll. Period. End of discussion. Welcome to the block list (as I hope others will do until you fade away and disappear like all the other losers before you).

 

 

Great idea! Just block people with differing opinions. That way when you read the comments you exclusively get the warm fuzzies.

post #64 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post
 

 

Oh, there's no confusion. It's the exact same thing. Apple got together with Microsoft and bought Nortel's patent portfolio, then set up a Patent Holding Company to Patent Troll Google. That's exactly what happened. They are using patents they don't even use for anything, or any product they make to sue a competitor because they can't compete any other way. They are patent trolls by every definition, which makes them slime.

 

DEAL WITH IT

 

You have a funny sense of morality. Rockstar (and its product-producing owners) are silme? No, slime is Samsung and Motorola (google?) trying to extort money from Apple for standard essential patents. They are slime.

 

DEAL WITH IT lol

   

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post #65 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


I've seen that claim posted as tho factual a couple of times now. Truly curious if you're aware of any substantiating source for that of if it's just something you heard around here? I'm not aware of any reliable claim that Google was invited to join the Rockstar group and turned it down, but maybe so.

The word came directly from Microsoft's general counsel and their head of communications.

 

http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/08/03/microsoft.says.google.could.have.joined.patent.bid/


Edited by Woochifer - 11/1/13 at 11:59am
post #66 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauiJoe View Post

So now people are calling apple a patent troll? I thought that term was reserved for the companies that sue even tho they have no product or intention of ever making one?

I agree with your definition.

post #67 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post

The word came directly from Microsoft's general counsel and their head of communications.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/08/03/microsoft.says.google.could.have.joined.patent.bid/

Ah, figured you were confused and it's understandable. MS was speaking about Novell, not Nortel Yeah they sound a whole lot alike and both sold a package of patents. But Novell (your link) had nothing to do with Rockstar Bidco and Nortel patents.
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post #68 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

That image caption… Wait, really? I love it.

 

Yes.

 

http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/05/rockstar/

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post #69 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post
 

Here's an idea: lets see what the industry is calling it.

 

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/google-and-android-partners-sued-by-apple-and-microsoftled-patent-troll-cm295046

 

Case Closed. 

 

Boy, are you ignorant. That article comes from Vincent Trivett, from the site Minyanville. He's not in "the industry", genius. He's a writer.

 

Also, Trivett is confusing this series of patents with the previously asserted patents that were essentially about "look and feel".

 

These new patents cover the very core of Google's business. If I was Larry Page or Sergey Brin, I'd need a change of diapers right about now.

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post #70 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

The glass house owners decided that throwing more stones would be unwise?

That could certainly be one reason.

It is good you can admit it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

After all they had a fairly long history of asserting IP in courtrooms. Look how many times they sued over their search patents to shut down newcomers and lesser competitors. Oh wait. . .

Good attempt at obfuscation, but not as good as your goldfish riff.
post #71 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post

Oh, there's no confusion. It's the exact same thing. Apple got together with Microsoft and bought Nortel's patent portfolio, then set up a Patent Holding Company to Patent Troll Google. That's exactly what happened. They are using patents they don't even use for anything, or any product they make to sue a competitor because they can't compete any other way. They are patent trolls by every definition, which makes them slime. 

DEAL WITH IT
Really, Microsoft does not run a search engine and Apple does not sell ads? Neither one has a product that could benefit from the patent that they currently are litigating for? I think you need to look again. 1hmm.gif
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post #72 of 152
[quote name="quinney" url="/t/160534/apple-backed-patent-consortium-sues-google-major-android-manufacturers/40#post_2429018"
Good attempt at obfuscation, but not as good as your goldfish riff.[/quote]

lol. 1biggrin.gif
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post #73 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post


Really, Microsoft does not run a search engine and Apple does not sell ads? Neither one has a product that could benefit from the patent that they currently are litigating for? I think you need to look again. 1hmm.gif

 

Google provided both of these services long before the others.  I guess buying up patents to damage a company that's been doing it for many years is all good and well?  I suppose legally it is just fine, but it's pretty lousy ethically speaking.  Of course that's just IMHO and being a 'fandroid troll' or whatever makes my opinion worth zero.

post #74 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post

Wow. So Apple and Microsoft are just pathetic patent trolls now. They actually set up a Patent Holding Company to Patent Troll Google. That wreaks of desperation. I remember when Apple had ethics.

 

So Trolling CNET wasn't enough for you?  We'll probably see BillWindows soon.

post #75 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post
 

 

I'm not being a putz. Patent Trolls are slime, and now Apple and Microsoft are patent trolls in bed with each other. Which is sad and kinda pathetic. 

 

Are you new to the IP issues Apple has been involved with in the past? They have previously been the target of massive lawsuits for their lack of IP attentiveness. They are now doing the right thing by actively and aggressively pursuing infringers. Failure to do so demonstrates a serious failure to protect the assets of the company.

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post #76 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post
 

 

 

Apple is a proven patent troll right now. Read the story. What does the title of this story say:

 

"Apple-backed patent consortium sues Google, major Android manufacturers"   <--- Apple is now a patent troll. Period. End of discussion. That is the definition of being one. 

 

Cool, if that's what Apple needs to do to crush Google and all the wannabe iPhone copycats, then so be it.

 

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post #77 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
 

I don't think Google took this issue seriously until it was too late (who can forget their infamous pi $billion bid?).  Yes, they entered the bidding for the Nortel patents, but to at least some extent, I think they were simply trying to bid the price up and make the acquisition as expensive as possible for their competitors.  Also keep in mind that Google was INVITED to join the Rockstar consortium and they refused. 

 

Losing out on the Nortel patents directly led to them overpaying for a money pit in Motorola Mobility.  Yes, Motorola included a treasure trove of patents, but the most valuable ones had already been released into patent pools on FRAND licensing terms, which limits their value in litigation relative to other patents that are not part of industry standards.  The Nortel patents that Rockstar has wielded in this lawsuit do not fall under FRAND, which makes them potentially more dangerous to a defendant. 

 

I knew about the telecom patents in the Nortel collection, but I didn't know that those patents also included search-linked advertising.  To me, that's the real story because Google's entire business model is built around the cash flow that search ads generate.  Android and Chrome are worthless to Google without the advertising tie-ins, as are Gmail and all of their other "free" services.  Any search ad-related patent decision would cut to the core of about 90% of Google's revenues.   Because of this, it just seems shocking to me that Google wouldn't have done everything in their power to acquire the Nortel patents.  Did they not do the due diligence on what Nortel's patents contained?  Or are they betting on the courts invalidating those particular patents?  Should be interesting to see how things unfold.

 

 

Google have consistently proven they are the smartest guys in the room. I'm guessing Apple and Microsoft don't have what they think they have. If this was anything like an actual threat, Apple's stock wouldn't still be falling today 520.03-2.67 (-0.51%) and Google's stock would have dropped below 1000 and not be 1027.04.

post #78 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottWilson View Post
 

 

 

Google have consistently proven they are the smartest guys in the room. I'm guessing Apple and Microsoft don't have what they think they have. If this was anything like an actual threat, Apple's stock wouldn't still be falling today 520.03-2.67 (-0.51%) and Google's stock would have dropped below 1000 and not be 1027.04.

 

You've drawn conclusions from unrelated events. Not really surprising in your case.

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post #79 of 152
It looks as tho at least one of the patents Rockstar is asserting against HTC, Samsung and others could be Standard-Essential, #6,128,298. So much for some of the the "fair licensing" arguments made here if it is.
http://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/653/

The Standard (re: RFC-3022) that Nortel's document points to is this one:
http://www.itu.int/ITU-T/workprog/wp_a5_out.aspx?isn=1425
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post #80 of 152
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