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Apple promises iWork toolbars, other legacy features will return within 6 months - Page 3

post #81 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
 

No, you're right, in this day and age, NOBODY wants parity between mobile and desktop platforms, thats just crazy talk. I mean, who owns a table and/or smartphones, and/or a laptop these days, and would benefit from the same software suite behaving nicely between all devices? Such an insane scenario, right? Oh, and you might mock the use of Pages, etc on an iPad, but that doesnt mean millions of people don't use it to create or edit documents. And no, it's nowhere near ridiculous. Not everyone needs multiple windows visible all at once when writing/editing a document.

 

I agree with your comments on iPad, in particular, as well as Mac as a creation and editing platform. My worry (explained elsewhere) is that Apple's promised enhancements are all about improving the creation process (the user interface) on the Mac and not about the attributes of the created product (the document).

 

The model I hoped (and still hope) to see is that all platforms can display and edit common documents but that some features that are complex in their interface and less often used (perhaps only at template creation time) are available only on the Mac. That way, what "not everyone needs" does not impede those people but is available to the rest of the users (for example, odd/even page set up might be only available to set up in a document template on a Mac but, once done - and usually only done once - is available to all).

 

I also agree, though perhaps for different reasons, that this should not be compared to the issues with Apple maps. This is a problem with 3 application programs in a couple of formats; the maps issues are about a global database.

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post #82 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

I don't understand why they didn't clearly communicate this when they released the new version. They should have given power user's the heads up and/or had a beta phase. Duh. It isn't as if they haven't been through this before.

 

Perhaps, Apple thought people would exercise a bit of common sense. It gave all the obviously reworked software away for free, and left the old software intact on people's machines. 

post #83 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

If any other company released "updated" versions of their applications with so many missing features, everyone here would ridicule them for rushing premature software out the door. Why is Apple treated differently in this case?

 

 

I forget the last time Microsoft gave away Office for free.

post #84 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
 

 

And just as with Final Cut Pro X, the defense "it's a brand-new version" is Apple being treated differently.  Yes, it was receiving lots of complaints.  But the complaints were generally dismissed and are still being dismissed by the Apple defenders.  Would this happen for any other company?

 

The complaints with FInal Cut Pro X and iWorks were hardly dismissed at least by Apple. After Apple released Final Cut Pro X, and there was an outcry, it evaluated the criticism and issued a statement saying it 1) would refund money to unhappy people, 2) would provide a free demo version of the software, and 3) quickly implement features commonly requested and removed in the rewrite. 

 

There is a big difference between Apple's release of Final Cut Pro X, and iWork Apps. With Final Cut Pro X, Apple hired industry insiders to evaluate the software before release, and the people gave the software thumbs up. I think Apple was genuinely shocked people were so upset because the new software although lacking a lot of features,  contained many cool new features. However, in that case, Apple actually changed $299 for software that many people earned their living with, and took away the old version. Professionals who paid money for the App were crazed that many features they needed were removed and there was no backwards compatibility. 

 

Here, Apple gave the iWork apps away including many cool new features. It also left the old versions intact on people's machines. In people's complaints they are overlooking the fact Apple that Apple has one provided Mac Maverick for free (just hold your breath for Microsoft to do that), and all the iWork Apps for free. I think Apple deserves a little slack. 

post #85 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Eggleston View Post
 

I can tell you first hand, doing any kind of editing of text, especially Rich Text, is not an easy thing to do on the web. 

It would be  piece of cake in Flash or Java. That is the problem with Javascript. It is really difficult to make it act like a desktop app. I've been really srtuggling with a jQuery/ajax/php/Mysql based web app for a couple weeks now. Once it reaches a certain level of complexity you start getting all kinds of errors on things that were working before, mostly due to timing issues. Like when you have a lot of things on a page, it can really slow down the execution of functions running in the background. Simple things start to break because they are dependent on other complex database interactions. One thing I had to implement is for every single javascript call it needs to make sure the previous one is done. $.when(this).done(function...

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #86 of 111
Maybe they should have called it "iWork Essentials for Mac". I hope they add back all the features faster than Intuit has added back Quicken for Mac features.
post #87 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Who is Richard Williamson?

I guess that's why he's gone. 1biggrin.gif
post #88 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Command_F View Post

This is true and has been said repeatedly. However, for an entire class of users, it does not help.

Today, I can use iWork '09 just like I did yesterday. But, in 3 years time, how much sympathy will you (or anyone) have for me when I say that my 3 years obsolete application no longer works on OS X 10.12? So, if I have documents (or templates or processes) that are long-lived then they have to be migrated to some other application or they will, at some arbitrary point in the future chosen by someone else, stop working. For some users that's just not acceptable. If it's just a letter to send tomorrow then it doesn't matter, if it's long-lived then it does matter (and guess which is likely to be the most complex).

And to repeat, I'm not upset because iWork isn't very good, I'm upset because it used to be so good! For example, I have used MS Word extensively for years and it stinks compared to Pages. But the latest Pages version is hobbled and I hope Apple fix that. Or perhaps it was wrong to assume that Pages could ever compete with Word.

You don't think Apple will add features in three years? You serious? Remember copy/paste, or lack thereof, in the iPhone? Apple never did bring that feature. Oh wait.
post #89 of 111
Just like I predicted. It's just a matter of writing, testing and releasing all of the new 64 bit code.
post #90 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post


If you just bought a new Mac grab a copy of iWork off of eBay or amazon. Simple

As eBay and Amazon would only sell DVDs of iWork '09, you would most likely also need to buy an optical drive for your new Mac.


Edited by d4NjvRzf - 11/6/13 at 7:44pm
post #91 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by barthrh View Post
 

What's the issue here? Apple did not overwrite the old versions. They created a "new" iWork and set it alongside the old one. If the new one didn't do the trick for you, no problem; use the old one.

 

Possible courses of action for Apple are to:

1. Delay the launch so that you have have a feature-complete app with feature parity to meet the needs of 10% of the market.

 

2. During the announcements state that it's not as feature-complete as '09.

 

3. Just let it roll and deal with the 10%.

 

#3 is the only right answer. They could probably have helped a bit by having a "migrating from iWork '09" message when you start iWork or when you import an older document. Surely there could have been a way to phrase it such that it would not freak out the 90% for the benefit of the 10%.

What about:

4. Launch the new iWork but keep the old iWork available for purchase until the new iWork restores feature parity? Back when Vista was released you still had the option of buying Windows XP until Windows 7 addressed Vista's flaws. Similarly you can still buy Windows 7 if Windows 8 is not your cup of tea.

post #92 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post
 

What about:

4. Launch the new iWork but keep the old iWork available for purchase until the new iWork restores feature parity? Back when Vista was released you still had the option of buying Windows XP until Windows 7 addressed Vista's flaws. Similarly you can still buy Windows 7 if Windows 8 is not your cup of tea.

 

The only people who would not be able to re-download iWork 2009 (legitimately) are the people who have never purchased it, don't use it, and don't have it on their Macs. For someone who doesn't use the old version of iWork, I fail to see how it's an inconvenience that its no longer available. That one guy who suddenly decides he needs an old version of a program he's never used? Ok. Keeping it available would confuse more people than not, especially people who complain because they accidentally purchased the old version instead of getting the new version for free. 

 

And if worse comes to worse, you can find iWork09 to download in a million other places y spending 5 seconds on Google. As Apple is now offering iWork for free, there shouldn't be any guilt involved, either. 

 

People are REALLY stretching to find scenarios where someone is negatively affected by the existence of the new iWork. Specifically, fictional scenarios that probably don't exist. 

post #93 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

I don't understand why they didn't clearly communicate this when they released the new version. They should have given power user's the heads up and/or had a beta phase. Duh. It isn't as if they haven't been through this before.

Probably because the number of Mac users is much smaller than the number of iOS users. Therefore, iOS users don't know what was missing. Mac users who need the features will continue to use iWork 09 until the features are added in. The rest of us will use the iWork applications as they exist right now.

post #94 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

They could have avoided the backlash if they'd just announced that features were missing and were going to be added back in shortly.

This whole wall of silence maybe no one will notice bull shit does them no good!

Well, they could have done this, but it would have made little difference: people would still complain about the missing features. What's worse is that new customers and people for whom the missing stuff would make little difference would see this as Apple telling them that they are releasing incomplete software. Who would use it?
Releasing it without saying anything means that people have tried it and given feedback. Apple now knows what needs to be sided back as a priority, and what they can leave out.
Same thing they did with Final Cut Pro. It's a very effective way of prioritising development, though I think few other companies would get away with it.
post #95 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Power user and iWork in the same sentence?  Come on man.

98% of the population is fine with the old or new iWork- but power users?  It's laughable to say you were a "power user" who used iWork.

Yup, first thing that occurred to me when this all blew up.

For years, we've been told that iWorks isn't a professional tool, and that Apple needs to bloat it to make it a replacement for Office. Now, power-users and folk who are using it to run their businesses are popping up all over the place. Most odd.
post #96 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

I suspect a fair bit of denial was at play, however. I think Apple is prone to that. It would have been easy to circumvent the wave of frustration and disappointment that has followed the release with a little bit of humility and most of all, communication. 

The interesting thing about the support note is that it doesn't contain even a hint of an apology. Apple pretty much expected this reaction from a fairly vocal minority living inside the internet echo chamber and decided to weather it until they get the package up to snuff. Contrast this with the original Maps release; the backlash took them completely by surprise, though I was suspicious when Apple started buying back stock the day after Cook issued the apology.
post #97 of 111
Have to chime in representing power users... I own all Mac hardware, but still boot camp to windows for real Excel work. Even before these "terrible" changes to Numbers, nobody in the business world would use Numbers for anything serious. Just due to the lack of keyboard navigation in a Mac spreadsheet, something that would take me 5 minutes on a PC would take me 20-30 mins in Numbers. So, these apps are nowhere ready for prime time. I've been waiting about 20 years and apple is not much closer to Microsoft. Damn shame. Hate to take up a partition of my Macs for Windows!
post #98 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

You mean Apple is not going to leave iWork '13 at version 1 forever????!!! Shocker. /s

Reading some of the posts, you'd think that Apple was never going to improve it, that they'd wiped the old version from the machine, and that folk don't take backu… Hang on; scratch that last one.
post #99 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


You don't think Apple will add features in three years? You serious? Remember copy/paste, or lack thereof, in the iPhone? Apple never did bring that feature. Oh wait.

I'm still using iMovie HD on an older computer with Snow Leopard, because the newer iMovie still cannot handle my iMovie HD projects. I would have to start over totally from the beginning, and would not be able to set up chapters for DVDs like I want to (along with many other functions still lacking from the new iMovie). So yes, they added several missing functions back to the new iMovie, but not nearly enough to replace iMovie HD. And it's been more than 3 years. There are parts of my old projects that I need to incorporate in newer projects, and the new iMovie will never be able to do that.

 

So yes, he's serious about the time in the future when Pages 09 will stop working on newer Macs, and the newest Pages still won't be able to handle Pages 09 documents without trashing them because it still won't have many of the 09 features.

 

Personally, I want a sophisticated computer software program, not one that's compromised just so it can run on an iPad (for me, Pages 09 wasn't good enough anyway, because my not-that-complicated Word documents could not be imported without ruining them. As annoying as Word is, it does what I need, whereas Pages doesn't).

post #100 of 111
bravo. i was a sceptic when fcpx came out, even wrote steve, only to find that they did listen. i trust they will bring back what for me is the primary static creation tool with a difference - pages is absolutely amazing and needs to keep growing.. it is a blessing to hear this is the way apple realised it wants to go too! great news

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apple user since 1983..

IIe, IIc, 128k, Plus, Se/30, IIci, LC, SI, LCIII, PPC7100, G3, iMac Bondi

Newton MP2000, iPod 10Gb / Touch 4g, iPhone / 3G

PowerBook 170 / G3 Lombard / G4 17" 1GHz

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post #101 of 111

From what I can glean reading many threads on this subject, the definition of a "Pages Power User" seems to be someone who wants to link two text boxes or do more than write a letter to someone. Pages seems to be viewed as only slightly more capable than TextEdit with no real insight into what many people actually use it for.

 

Reading the postings on the Apple discussion forums it's clear that there are many small-scale businesses and self-employed people that have incorporated iWork successfully over years as part of their daily workflow (despite rgh71's view) and are understandably appalled at what has been removed from such vital software. Yes, businesses clearly require features of software that home users do not, but often the difference is just that a business may use Pages to produce 40 letters a day, 10 of them with MailMerge, 7 days a week whereas you would use it twice. Pages is not Word and has never tried to be but from the comments here you'd think that anyone who doesn't automatically use Word to produce important complex (company) documents is a fool. About 80% of Word documents I've ever received at my work, as an attachment from a friend or downloaded from a web site could have been written just as well in TextEdit! Word is a gargantuan program that has had everything but the kitchen sink bolted on to it over the years and it really feels like it and given the documents actually produced with it, it seems that most features that make Word such a "serious" product are never exercised. Pages (prior to V5) is powerful but still clean and elegant in general. Apple knew when to stop complicating it.

 

The idea that Word is the only software for "serious" users and that Pages is fit for no more than designing a poster for your next party is ludicrous. In my view, Pages does, or did, 90% of what most people need from a word processor and page layout program. And remember, before Pages went free it was only £14 and Word is £35. What features does Word have for you that make it worth shelling out another £20? Next to none I'd say ...

post #102 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


You don't think Apple will add features in three years? You serious? Remember copy/paste, or lack thereof, in the iPhone? Apple never did bring that feature. Oh wait.

That was the question I asked in my original post, yes. I also explained why I was concerned that they might not. Did you have an answer?

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post #103 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiltedGreen View Post
 

From what I can glean reading many threads on this subject, th <snip>

 

 

Nothing has been removed from the previous version of Pages that so-called Page Power Users were using until a week or two ago. And if they had any common sense or basic computer literacy whatsoever, before installing a major software upgrade they'd have backed up their previous system, software and data all. It would be negligent of someone running a business (or a business' IT dept) not to take these fundamental precautions.

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post #104 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post
 

Power user and iWork in the same sentence?  Come on man.

 

98% of the population is fine with the old or new iWork- but power users?  It's laughable to say you were a "power user" who used iWork.

Good point.  I sand corrected.  How about "advanced users".  However, the real source of the problem are the people that say iWork isn't for "power user."  The "advanced users" aren't asking for "power user" features.  They are asking for very basic features.  Like with me, I need paragraph numbering.  Pages will do bullets and lists, but not a paragraph number.  (paragraph numbering requires the second line to be left justified, which can't be done in Pages).  I me seriously, who thinks paragraph numbers are only for "power users". 

What is most infuriating is that these features are quite simple to implement and have been around for over 20 years in Word and Word Perfect (i.e., no patent problems).  Apple has had billions of excess cash for close to a decade and they can't produce a reasonable word processor?  What's wrong with these people?  They obviously know that the word processor is hands down the most important productivity tool on a computer.  How could they just stick their head in the sand for 20 years.  


Edited by ash471 - 11/7/13 at 3:57pm
post #105 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayz View Post


Yup, first thing that occurred to me when this all blew up.

For years, we've been told that iWorks isn't a professional tool, and that Apple needs to bloat it to make it a replacement for Office. Now, power-users and folk who are using it to run their businesses are popping up all over the place. Most odd.

Actually it isn't odd. Word processing is by its very nature a platform software.  I'm forced to use Word because I can't do paragraph numbering in Pages.  When my 13 year old writes a school paper, he uses Word because that is what I can help him with. It is infuriating that Apple won't add some very simple features to Word to make it usable. There are tens of millions of people that need paragraph numbering.  

post #106 of 111
Great to discover iWork users are in the same boat as those whingeing whining old school Final Cut Pro editors when version X replaced it with an enhanced version of iMovie. Like what are you complaining about? Has the old version stopped working? Did someone make you upgrade to Mavericks with a gun to your head? You're so old school, iPad is NOW, desktop is dead, be grateful you don't have to buy Office.

Once again Apple shows disdain for its habitual users, in favour of marketing hype/hip "Apps". Play with Apple's apps, just don't build your business on them.
post #107 of 111
Originally Posted by TeaEarleGreyHot View Post
In my opinion, the iWork'13 rollout was a fiasco of grander proprortions than last year's iOS Maps debacle (http://www.apple.com/letter-from-tim-cook-on-maps/).  I wonder who Tim will fire over this? 

 

No one. Because:

 
opinion

 

≠ fact.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #108 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Power user and iWork in the same sentence?  Come on man.

98% of the population is fine with the old or new iWork- but power users?  It's laughable to say you were a "power user" who used iWork.

And that attitude is one of the problems here. WTF are you to decide who is or is not a power user? iWork '09 is quite capable for many people doing real work, while '13 is a sham. Just because you aren't doing or cannot do real work with iWork '09 doesn't mean you're the standard by which all users should be measured.
post #109 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

The only people who would not be able to re-download iWork 2009 (legitimately) are the people who have never purchased it, don't use it, and don't have it on their Macs. For someone who doesn't use the old version of iWork, I fail to see how it's an inconvenience that its no longer available. That one guy who suddenly decides he needs an old version of a program he's never used? Ok. Keeping it available would confuse more people than not, especially people who complain because they accidentally purchased the old version instead of getting the new version for free. 

And if worse comes to worse, you can find iWork09 to download in a million other places y spending 5 seconds on Google. As Apple is now offering iWork for free, there shouldn't be any guilt involved, either. 

People are REALLY stretching to find scenarios where someone is negatively affected by the existence of the new iWork. Specifically, fictional scenarios that probably don't exist. 

Your ignorance of real users and real problems doesn't make them fictional.
post #110 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgh71 View Post

Have to chime in representing power users... I own all Mac hardware, but still boot camp to windows for real Excel work. Even before these "terrible" changes to Numbers, nobody in the business world would use Numbers for anything serious. Just due to the lack of keyboard navigation in a Mac spreadsheet, something that would take me 5 minutes on a PC would take me 20-30 mins in Numbers. So, these apps are nowhere ready for prime time. I've been waiting about 20 years and apple is not much closer to Microsoft. Damn shame. Hate to take up a partition of my Macs for Windows!

"The business"? Which business? You aren't the model norm. We are seeing that there are indeed people using it in their businesses.
post #111 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post


Nothing has been removed from the previous version of Pages that so-called Page Power Users were using until a week or two ago. And if they had any common sense or basic computer literacy whatsoever, before installing a major software upgrade they'd have backed up their previous system, software and data all. It would be negligent of someone running a business (or a business' IT dept) not to take these fundamental precautions.

Ah yes, the "blame the victim" mentality. Because it's all about personal accountability... unless that's a corporation or developer, because then screw accountability. Capitalists and companies are exempt from accountability demands because they (and you) push it all on to the consumer.

Buyer beware only goes so far... until you have an unjustifiably abusive industry.
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