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Historic Apple II DOS source code now available to download

post #1 of 40
Thread Starter 
Thanks to a collaboration between two vintage computer museums, the Apple II DOS source code, widely regarded as the seed that sprouted Apple as we know it, has been made available to the public.

DOS Agreement
Apple's agreement with Shepardson Microsystems for Apple II DOS. | Source: DigiBarn


The Computer History Museum, with the help of DigiBarn Computer Museum, posted to its website on Tuesday the Apple II disk operating system for non-commercial use. Apple gave consent to the publication as the company still owns the code.

The Apple II was a fully-assembled personal computer with a number of advanced features like a built-in BASIC programming language, compatibility for an external monitor and various modes of input. However, the machine lacked a disk drive, meaning programs and data had to be stored and retrieved via cassette tape.

Apple cofounder Steve Wozniak created a floppy disk controller for the Apple II in 1977, but needed a DOS to access and organize the associated programs and data. That task was handled by contract programmer Paul Laughton, who at the time worked for Shepardson Microsystems.

In 1978, Steve Jobs inked a $13,000 deal with Bob Shepardson to provide a file manager, BASIC interface and utilities, with a delivery date pegged for some seven seeks later. Laughton said he had to write the DOS on punch card sheets, which were assembled and made into a paper tape able to be read by a plug in card created by Wozniak. The process was repeated throughout debugging and updating.

After just a few weeks of coding, Apple II DOS 3.2 was released in June 1978.

The source code can be downloaded via The Computer History Museum's website, while documents relating to the software, including schematics and business agreements, can be found on DigiBarn's site.
post #2 of 40
To me something that has been missed, if you visit and note Paul Laughton's reference in two photos, is the age of folks in Software Engineering and Computer Science, back then.

They were grown adults who had families and other careers, etc.

Without those academics with maturity behind them through life experience we'd have nothing but pissant Facebooks of the globe.

The real weight of Computer Science has always come from people 40 years of age. Some really great ideas from the 15-39 crowd, but the heavy lifting has always come from much more seasoned minds.
post #3 of 40

Nice to see Apple going the open source route.  :D

post #4 of 40
The cool kids moved on to ProDOS 16 a long time ago. /s

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post #5 of 40
Finally! Now I can go back in my time machine and sell this to Laughton for $10,000, buy some stock, and sit back and watch the miracle unfold.
post #6 of 40
Will this run on my 2011 MacBook Air?
post #7 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post

Will this run on my 2011 MacBook Air?

 

If you run into any problems just hit up the Genius Bar at the Apple Store.

post #8 of 40
What I find unfathomable is how we've gone from there to where we are now, is less than half a lifetime. What a mind-boggling sequence of achievements!

Where will we be in 2050!? (I know where I'll be 1hmm.gif, but it's still fun to speculate.....)
post #9 of 40

For "for non-commercial use" as if there's any use for it at all?  It's 35 years old and has no relevancy anymore. That's like IBM making their punch cards open source.

post #10 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

What I find unfathomable is how we've gone from there to where we are now, is less than half a lifetime. What a mind-boggling sequence of achievements!

Where will we be in 2050!? (I know where I'll be 1hmm.gif, but it's still fun to speculate.....)

so where will you be?

you wrote "less than half a lifetime" so logic dictates that you'll still have some time ahead of you when 2050 rolls around ...
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post #11 of 40
Does anyone know about the address shown near the top left corner of the letter, "10260 Bandley Drive, Cupertino, CA 95014"? Was this an address that Apple once had?
post #12 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post
 

 It's 35 years old and has no relevancy anymore. 

 

It's interesting that many modern programmers have almost unlimited resources available to them on modern platforms and as a result can often write inefficient algorithms and code.  Obviously re-usable code / objects /etc. help in some regard with design and maintenance..

 

But, they didn't have that luxury in the early days.  I can remember adding up the CPU cycles of individual 6502 assembly instructions within loops to see if it was possible to code it a different way to increase the speed of execution - With a 1.023Mhz chip , 256 bytes of 'zeropage' addresses and maybe 16 or 48KB to store code AND data in, you had fairly limited resources on the Apple ][ even with only a text-based display! 

 

But, as you say .. probably not relevant to modern coding 'methods' with our gargantuan ( by comparison ) resources.

post #13 of 40
Question is what will Samsung do with the code?
post #14 of 40
Guys, Samsung II coming up!
post #15 of 40

 

Yes I visited Apple many times when I lived for 25-years in the Bay area.

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post #16 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooch View Post


so where will you be?

you wrote "less than half a lifetime" so logic dictates that you'll still have some time ahead of you when 2050 rolls around ...

Half a lifetime.... Not necessarily mine. 1wink.gif
post #17 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Guy View Post

Does anyone know about the address shown near the top left corner of the letter, "10260 Bandley Drive, Cupertino, CA 95014"? Was this an address that Apple once had?

Yeah! Apple occupied quite a few buildings on Bandley, Mariani, Stevens Creek and De Anza * in the early years...

AIR, that particular address was called "Bandley 3". My first visit to Apple was in June 1978 to a building (Bandley 2?) that was closer to Stevens Creek.

I believe that Bandey 3 is the building where Woz's brother Mark and I met Woz late one night and Woz smuggled out a controller card and 2 drives (without any Apple logos or markings). I had bought an Apple ][ from a store that Mark managed, Mark let me take the smuggled drives home for a long weekend.

Ahh... Great memories!


* Apple would usually include a logo on their building to differentiate them from others nearby. One of the most unique was a 2-story California Mission style building on De Anza about 2 blocka above Stevens Creek. They incorporated the Apple logo as a void in the wrought iron railing on the 2nd floor... This location was called "Taco Towers".
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post #18 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Guy View Post

Does anyone know about the address shown near the top left corner of the letter, "10260 Bandley Drive, Cupertino, CA 95014"? Was this an address that Apple once had?

Yes, Apple had a number of buildings on Bandley drive, and I believe that was the originally building that worked out. They eventually took over all of Bandley drive along with Valley Green Dr through out the 80's

post #19 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

To me something that has been missed, if you visit and note Paul Laughton's reference in two photos, is the age of folks in Software Engineering and Computer Science, back then.

They were grown adults who had families and other careers, etc.

Without those academics with maturity behind them through life experience we'd have nothing but pissant Facebooks of the globe.

The real weight of Computer Science has always come from people 40 years of age. Some really great ideas from the 15-39 crowd, but the heavy lifting has always come from much more seasoned minds.

Yes and no!

I had worked for IBM for 14+ years in 1978. My wife, Lucy, let me buy an Apple ][ for my 39th birthday.

At that time, really, there was no mature discipline known as "Computer Science". My first real programming class was on the IBM 650 in 1958. They didn't really have compilers back then -- about the most advanced construct was a symbolic assembler. My early training was learning to program the "Indian problem" in the native assembly (machine) language of various computers.

My first job programming job (age 21) was for Lockheed in 1960 -- they were planning to install an IBM 1401 to replace 3 IBM 407 unit record accounting machines. There were no compilers, at first... RPG came later.

When I went to work for IBM in 1963 (age 24) there was a ForTran compiler for scientific machines. But business programming was mostly still done in assembly language. The most advanced constructs were FIOS (File I/O Systems and TOS (Tape Operating Systems). CoBOL and AlgoL compilers were in development and would soon gain widespread use. There were no disk drives or dumb terminals in wide use.

When I left IBM in 1979, it was partly because: I was 40; I wanted to be my own boss and I saw the Apple ][ as a vehicle.

Likely, at that time, "Computer Science" was being taught and learned... We all benefit from that.

I maintain that we also benefitted from the mature, seasoned, businessmen like Mike Markkula, Scottie, Gene Carter, Wil Houd... They gave the business of computing the attention that they deserved.

BTW, I was in the room when Steve Jobs said: "Never trust anyone over 40"... I was 40.
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
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post #20 of 40

call -151

c600g

 

Not that lazy pr#6 crap.

post #21 of 40

My favourite part of the CNET article:

 
 On April 10, 1978, the contract was signed. For $13,000 -- $5,200 up front, and $7,800 on delivery, and no additional royalties -- Shepardson Microsystems would build Apple's first DOS -- and hand it over just 35 days later. "Amazing," said Damer, speaking about that deadline. "Can you imagine delivering an operating system in just 35 days today, with no tools and partially functional hardware? That truly was the greatest generation of programmers."
 
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post #22 of 40
Quote:
BTW, I was in the room when Steve Jobs said: "Never trust anyone over 40"... I was 40.

 

That speaks a bit to mdriftmeyer's original point.  People with less life experience are often arrogant and dismissive towards people.  In order to design truly great products, you need to listen to people and understand their needs (even if they may not know how to express them).  If you're a technical person who is constantly dismissing non-technical people and only designing products with yourself in mind, you're likely not going to find much success.  And although Jobs did exude that type of attitude as well, I think deep down he was listening to people and really did want their praise.

 
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post #23 of 40
Quote:
I maintain that we also benefitted from the mature, seasoned, businessmen like Mike Markkula, Scottie, Gene Carter, Wil Houd... They gave the business of computing the attention that they deserved.

 

Just as the seasoned computer hardware and software designers back then laid the foundation for the technology we use today, the seasoned businessmen and investors who had the right outlook (not just in it to make a quick buck and get out) laid the foundation for the great technology companies of today.  The people involved in the industry today could definitely learn something from this.

 
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post #24 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio View Post

Quote:
BTW, I was in the room when Steve Jobs said: "Never trust anyone over 40"... I was 40.

That speaks a bit to mdriftmeyer's original point.  People with less life experience are often arrogant and dismissive towards people.  In order to design truly great products, you need to listen to people and understand their needs (even if they may not know how to express them).  If you're a technical person who is constantly dismissing non-technical people and only designing products with yourself in mind, you're likely not going to find much success.  And a
lthough Jobs did exude
 that type of attitude as well, I think deep down he was listening to people and really did want their praise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by auxio View Post

Quote:
I maintain that we also benefitted from the mature, seasoned, businessmen like Mike Markkula, Scottie, Gene Carter, Wil Houd... They gave the business of computing the attention that they deserved.

Just as the seasoned computer hardware and software designers back then laid the foundation for the technology we use today, the seasoned businessmen and investors who had the right outlook (not just in it to make a quick buck and get out) laid the foundation for the great technology companies of today.  The people involved in the industry today could definitely learn something from this.

Yes and Yes!
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post #25 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post
 
 
Yeah! Apple occupied quite a few buildings on Bandley, Mariani, Stevens Creek and De Anza * in the early years...
...
* Apple would usually include a logo on their building to differentiate them from others nearby. One of the most unique was a 2-story California Mission style building on De Anza about 2 blocka above Stevens Creek. They incorporated the Apple logo as a void in the wrought iron railing on the 2nd floor... This location was called "Taco Towers".

Between Nov. '79 and May '85 I worked in Bandley 3, Taco Towers, on Mariani, the "Triangle" building on Stevens Creek, and De Anza (5? 6?) across the street from Apple headquarters. Trying to keep up with the growth in headcount then kept things churning.

post #26 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I believe that Bandey 3 is the building where Woz's brother Mark and I met Woz late one night and Woz smuggled out a controller card and 2 drives (without any Apple logos or markings). I had bought an Apple ][ from a store that Mark managed, Mark let me take the smuggled drives home for a long weekend.

The first time I got a chance to work with an Apple][ was at Mark's store, and remember you and Lucy there back then. A year later I was working at Apple, in part because of being inspired by the energy generated by the people working at, and hanging around the computer store.

 

Time flies...

post #27 of 40
10260 Bandley Drive is an address that Apple *still* has, it's just no longer their headquarters. The building is known as De Anza 2.
post #28 of 40

..Got my programming "start" way back then with Applesoft BASIC. Those days were fun!

post #29 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveH View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

 
 
Yeah! Apple occupied quite a few buildings on Bandley, Mariani, Stevens Creek and De Anza * in the early years...

...

* Apple would usually include a logo on their building to differentiate them from others nearby. One of the most unique was a 2-story California Mission style building on De Anza about 2 blocka above Stevens Creek. They incorporated the Apple logo as a void in the wrought iron railing on the 2nd floor... This location was called "Taco Towers".

Between Nov. '79 and May '85 I worked in Bandley 3, Taco Towers, on Mariani, the "Triangle" building on Stevens Creek, and De Anza (5? 6?) across the street from Apple headquarters. Trying to keep up with the growth in headcount then kept things churning.

Yeah, Apple was growing like crazy all over Cupertino, Sunnyvale, Campbell... building and renting anything they could find.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveH View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I believe that Bandey 3 is the building where Woz's brother Mark and I met Woz late one night and Woz smuggled out a controller card and 2 drives (without any Apple logos or markings). I had bought an Apple ][ from a store that Mark managed, Mark let me take the smuggled drives home for a long weekend.
The first time I got a chance to work with an Apple][ was at Mark's store, and remember you and Lucy there back then. A year later I was working at Apple, in part because of being inspired by the energy generated by the people working at, and hanging around the computer store.

Time flies...

Based on your name, and the timeframe, I think I remember you... Didn't we try to hire you?

Mark could make the Apple ][ dance and turn flips -- he was very very fast on the keyboard... I think he did a better demo of the Apple ][ than either Woz or Jobs (and Jobs gave excellent demos)..

We seemed to get everyone in the store that had anything to do with Apple -- 'course having a great Chinese restaurant next door, and being 7/10 of a mile from Apple HQ didn't hurt.

But it was the people... the atmosphere in the store was electric... and addicting!

Silicon Valley was the center of the world -- and Apple was at the heart of it!


I had seen Apple ][ computers at several Computer Stores: Computerland Los Altos, Computerland San Jose -- And I finally convinced Lucy to let me buy one for my birthday. We set out on a Saturday and hit the known computer stores from Palo Alto to San jose -- they were all closed.

Dammit, I wanted to buy a computer! Lucy mentioned that she'd read that Apple just moved into new HQ in Cupertino and she thought she knew where it was. On our way back to our home in Saratoga, we detoured and did one of Lucy's little back street explorations...

It was July 1978, and Bandley wasn't fully paved -- lotta' construction and landscaping going on. We picked our way through the chaos and eventually found what I recall was Bandley 2.

We entered through a small door into a room that was about 60' x 40'. There were a few chairs and side tables scattered around the front and sides of the room and a single counter at the back,

The room was filled with people, raucous, joking, talking loudly, laughing loudly.

We picked our way to the counter and asked Dean (the young lady) if we could buy an Apple ][. She said they didn't have any -- and that we should visit a computer store. We said we'd just done the tour and they were all closed. I asked Dean if I could buy the "Red Book" manual for the Apple ][ to study over the weekend -- as I was going to buy the computer on Monday (Thinking that she'd just give me the manual). She said they didn't have any manuals -- they were out of everything...

Did I mention that the room was filled with people, raucous, joking, talking loudly, laughing loudly.

In the near corner, there was this young kid sitting on the floor with an Apple ][ plugged into the wall giving what looked like a demo to another guy. He excused himself, got up and came over to Lucy and Me. He introduced himself as Mark Wozniak (whatever), said he managed the Recreational Computer Store (not in the phone book) in Sunnyvale. Mark explained that he had just picked up the Apple ][ the costumer had ordered from him -- and that he was doing a "Checkout" to make sure everything worked and that customer knew the basics of how to use it.

Mark said, we could watch the rest of the checkout session, if we liked -- then follow him to his store -- and that it took 3-6 months to get a Apple ][ (everything was back ordered).

Did I mention that the room was filled with people, raucous, joking, talking loudly, laughing loudly?

Lucy and I watched and were quite impressed with the Apple ][ -- and especially with Mark. This 18-year-old kid appeared to know as much (or more) about computers than I did -- and I was in the "business" before Mark was born.

Did I mention that the room was filled with people, raucous, joking, talking loudly, laughing loudly?

Lucy and I followed Mark back to the store for an amazing one-on-two demo of the Appe ][ (Lucy never understood computers but was an excellent judge of people). The only Apple ][ in the store was Mark's personal Apple ][ -- that he took home every night.

That was our first encounter with Apple: raucous people with a shared interest, joking, talking loudly, laughing loudly -- and having fun!


We wanted a piece of this!


It changed our lives forever!

About 2 months later, when I got my Apple ][, I was perusing the "Red Book" and... Hmm, that's odd, this guy writing all the Apple ][ software and wiring diagrams has the same last name as Mark... Hmm, I wonder...
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 11/13/13 at 11:45am
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post #30 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by KjellBrell View Post

Question is what will Samsung do with the code?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnd0ps View Post

Guys, Samsung II coming up!

 

:lol:

post #31 of 40

I don't recall getting any offer from the store; I'd just moved my family down to San Jose from north of Napa to take a tech writer position at Four-Phase Systems (made the first all-LSI minicomputer systems). In the building they built as their company headquarters, which is now Infinite Loop. Spent 18 months there, then got an offer at Apple in the Apple//&/// division writing manuals there.

 

I did get offered a job at the bike store a few doors up from Mark's store during the period of long gas lines, though. Having a "real" job at the time, and two small girls and a wife to support, however...

post #32 of 40
Quote:
...with a delivery date pegged for some seven seeks later.

Are you trying to pass off that typo as a drive seek pun?
post #33 of 40
All the praise in this thread for the pioneers is fine but there's a need to stop doing things the way they did them... even ten years ago. Systemwide third party shared libraries for example. There's enough drive space. Use it. There's no good reason for me to have 13 different Microsoft visual c++ redistributables installed.

Then there's something the developers of today could do well to re-embrace: optimizing code. For real. All this portable computing should be demanding it!
post #34 of 40
Or you could have bought "DOSource" way back then, a disassembled and commented version of the source code. Wasn't on the market very long..... (threatening Apple letter:)).
post #35 of 40

     "It's 35 years old and has no relevancy anymore."

 

Surely you jest.  Although the Unix copyrights associated with the hundreds of millions

of iOS devices are technically maxed out at  30 years old (Settings->General->About->Legal Notices),

they are renewals of copyrights associated with a much older and venerable Unix.   There may be actual

lines of code in every Mac OS X and iOS 7 from the Unix circa 1970s.  (My own code

therein is only 29 years old, though; admittedly it is amazing that it still exists.)

 

Just because the Apple II is older and obsolete doesn't imply that the Darwinian survivors

(Unix-based systems) are irrelevant.   Because I now have the luxury of being an old fart, I'll now

posit that most OS software entities are hacks compared to the original Ritchie/Thompson Unix.

post #36 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiarius View Post
 

     "It's 35 years old and has no relevancy anymore."

 

Surely you jest.  Although the Unix copyrights associated with the hundreds of millions

of iOS devices are technically maxed out at  30 years old (Settings->General->About->Legal Notices),

they are renewals of copyrights associated with a much older and venerable Unix.   There may be actual

lines of code in every Mac OS X and iOS 7 from the Unix circa 1970s.  (My own code

therein is only 29 years old, though; admittedly it is amazing that it still exists.)

 

Just because the Apple II is older and obsolete doesn't imply that the Darwinian survivors

(Unix-based systems) are irrelevant.   Because I now have the luxury of being an old fart, I'll now

posit that most OS software entities are hacks compared to the original Ritchie/Thompson Unix.

You make a good point, software in some regards can be timeless, its value can go far into the future, unlike most hardware which has relatively short useful life. For anyone know the original Apple software could be in the OSX or iOS. I know the original mac use apple II code, such as Woz's floppy disk controller software. For all we know it could still be in current version of OSX. 

post #37 of 40

I had one of those!

post #38 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by DroidFTW View Post

If you run into any problems just hit up the Genius Bar at the Apple Store.

ROFL
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post #39 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Yes and no!

I had worked for IBM for 14+ years in 1978. My wife, Lucy, let me buy an Apple ][ for my 39th birthday.

At that time, really, there was no mature discipline known as "Computer Science". My first real programming class was on the IBM 650 in 1958. They didn't really have compilers back then -- about the most advanced construct was a symbolic assembler. My early training was learning to program the "Indian problem" in the native assembly (machine) language of various computers.

My first job programming job (age 21) was for Lockheed in 1960 -- they were planning to install an IBM 1401 to replace 3 IBM 407 unit record accounting machines. There were no compilers, at first... RPG came later.

When I went to work for IBM in 1963 (age 24) there was a ForTran compiler for scientific machines. But business programming was mostly still done in assembly language. The most advanced constructs were FIOS (File I/O Systems and TOS (Tape Operating Systems). CoBOL and AlgoL compilers were in development and would soon gain widespread use. There were no disk drives or dumb terminals in wide use.

When I left IBM in 1979, it was partly because: I was 40; I wanted to be my own boss and I saw the Apple ][ as a vehicle.

Likely, at that time, "Computer Science" was being taught and learned... We all benefit from that.

I maintain that we also benefitted from the mature, seasoned, businessmen like Mike Markkula, Scottie, Gene Carter, Wil Houd... They gave the business of computing the attention that they deserved.

BTW, I was in the room when Steve Jobs said: "Never trust anyone over 40"... I was 40.

Great story, thanks for sharing. Makes me feel nostalgic too. I was 29 when I borrowed the money from my dad to set up an Apple ][ Dealership in England having been exposed to them briefly by the head of the medical physics department at the local University. I just knew it was my future and destiny and I resign my job as head of the science department where I worked without a moments hesitation. I leapt into an unknown void without a single doubt in my mind or backward glance. I never regretted it once and have enjoyed the ride, right up to today as I ponder over a 4 or 6 core Mac Pro to play Trainz on 1smile.gif.
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Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
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post #40 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Yes and no!

I had worked for IBM for 14+ years in 1978. My wife, Lucy, let me buy an Apple ][ for my 39th birthday.

At that time, really, there was no mature discipline known as "Computer Science". My first real programming class was on the IBM 650 in 1958. They didn't really have compilers back then -- about the most advanced construct was a symbolic assembler. My early training was learning to program the "Indian problem" in the native assembly (machine) language of various computers.

My first job programming job (age 21) was for Lockheed in 1960 -- they were planning to install an IBM 1401 to replace 3 IBM 407 unit record accounting machines. There were no compilers, at first... RPG came later.

When I went to work for IBM in 1963 (age 24) there was a ForTran compiler for scientific machines. But business programming was mostly still done in assembly language. The most advanced constructs were FIOS (File I/O Systems and TOS (Tape Operating Systems). CoBOL and AlgoL compilers were in development and would soon gain widespread use. There were no disk drives or dumb terminals in wide use.

When I left IBM in 1979, it was partly because: I was 40; I wanted to be my own boss and I saw the Apple ][ as a vehicle.

Likely, at that time, "Computer Science" was being taught and learned... We all benefit from that.

I maintain that we also benefitted from the mature, seasoned, businessmen like Mike Markkula, Scottie, Gene Carter, Wil Houd... They gave the business of computing the attention that they deserved.

BTW, I was in the room when Steve Jobs said: "Never trust anyone over 40"... I was 40.

Great story, thanks for sharing. Makes me feel nostalgic too. I was 29 when I borrowed the money from my dad to set up an Apple ][ Dealership in England having been exposed to them briefly by the head of the medical physics department at the local University. I just knew it was my future and destiny and I resign my job as head of the science department where I worked without a moments hesitation. I leapt into an unknown void without a single doubt in my mind or backward glance. I never regretted it once and have enjoyed the ride, right up to today as I ponder over a 4 or 6 core Mac Pro to play Trainz on 1smile.gif.

Yes, when we opened our dealership, 3 of us put in $20,000 each and made an Application to Apple. Myself and one other were full-time IBM employees who planned on holding our current jobs -- just in case...

When Apple reviewed our Dealership Application, they setup a meeting. Sue Wardy a very attractive and pleasant Apple rep conducted the meeting. Sue told us that Apple was interested, but they thought we were under-financed -- saying that they were only accepting applications that had a minimum of $125,000. They were willing to approve us if we found someone would who would co-sign for us. My cohort Jim and I both had very well-paying jobs at IBM (noted on the application). I suspect our salaries were a lot higher than Sue's (and most Apple employees).

Anyway, I told Sue that our combined 28 + computer marketing experience should be taken into consideration. Then, I asked Sue: "Since Jim and I both have high-paying jobs -- couldn't we co-sign for ourselves?".

Startled, Sue said that she didn't know and "Let me go ask!". She returned in a few minutes with the approved application... That's the only time in my life I ever co-signed for myself 1wink.gif
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
Reply
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