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Italian government levels tax fraud accusation at Apple, raids local HQ - Page 2

post #41 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

No you are confusing apple with Google or Amazon maybe. Possibly Starbucks. Apple doesn't licence any patents to Italian companies because all it does in Italy is sell stuff. You don't need to transfer IP to sell.

As for the 2% that's a matter of how the US and Ireland tax companies. The Irish tax 12.5% on sales if you are based and registered in Ireland. But only on Irish sales if you are based in the US, or outside the country but register in Ireland. The US taxes companies registered for tax and based there but doesn't tax companies based in the US but not registered there. One or the other should change but neither were set up to be a tax haven.

I think he means Apple US transfers IP to the Irish subsidiary to use in a Double-Irish tax avoidance plan. Apparently Apple confirmed some of the details during Senate hearings.

"The memorandum issued by the US Senate permanent subcommittee on investigations yesterday details how Apple transferred certain rights, including IP rights, to three Irish companies; Apple Sales International (ASI), Apple Operations Europe (AOE), and Apple Operations International (ASI), all of which have registered addresses in Cork but hold their board meetings in the US.
ASI buys finished product from a Chinese manufacturer and resells it at a profit to other Apple companies in jurisdictions outside the Americas without ever taking physical possession of the product. The resulting profit flow to Ireland in the 2009 to 2012 period was a phenomenal $74 billion. Because ASI is not managed and controlled in Ireland, it is not tax resident here. In fact, it is not tax resident anywhere. 1bugeye.gif
This is because the US taxes companies on the basis of where they are registered as against where they are managed from."
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/intellectual-property-rights-at-the-core-of-apple-s-irish-subsidiaries-1.1401739
Edited by Gatorguy - 11/13/13 at 12:10pm
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post #42 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post
 
Why the fcuk do you think companies need to transfer IP to sell?

Take a look here:

 

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/how-apple-and-the-rest-of-the-tech-giants-avoid-billions-in-taxes--2

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post #43 of 84

I took a look. It's what I explained earlier, about how Apple is using Irish laws on "resident" companies to avoid tax in Ireland. What it is not saying is that Apple charges IP to sellers. That would be meaningless ( Starbucks are pushing it by claiming coffee is "manufactured" in stores. )
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post #44 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

I think he means Apple US transfers IP to the Irish subsidiary to use in a Double-Irish tax avoidance plan. Apparently Apple confirmed some of the details during Senate hearings.

"The memorandum issued by the US Senate permanent subcommittee on investigations yesterday details how Apple transferred certain rights, including IP rights, to three Irish companies; Apple Sales International (ASI), Apple Operations Europe (AOE), and Apple Operations International (ASI), all of which have registered addresses in Cork but hold their board meetings in the US.
ASI buys finished product from a Chinese manufacturer and resells it at a profit to other Apple companies in jurisdictions outside the Americas without ever taking physical possession of the product. The resulting profit flow to Ireland in the 2009 to 2012 period was a phenomenal $74 billion. Because ASI is not managed and controlled in Ireland, it is not tax resident here. In fact, it is not tax resident anywhere. 1bugeye.gif
This is because the US taxes companies on the basis of where they are registered as against where they are managed from."
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/intellectual-property-rights-at-the-core-of-apple-s-irish-subsidiaries-1.1401739

Yes that's it. I am not denying Apple avoids tax and I would prefer it paid ( albeit lower) taxes in the US. But the Italian job is a shake down.
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post #45 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

They are not avoiding Irish taxes. The way the Irish tax law is structured is that if the companies are owned by a foreign entity they are not required to pay the normal corporate rate but instead a very low 1-2% rate.

The way some people have described the tax avoidance is like this: Apple registers certain intellectual property and design patents to an Irish based company such as Apple Operations International, which they own, and then licenses them to the Italian company, which they own, for enormous fees. In turn the Italian company can write off the expense of the fees and sends the cost of that licensing to the Irish company. In this way the Italian company show almost no profit. And, since Ireland has such a friendly tax structure the Irish company owned by a foreign entity pays no taxes there either.

Apparently they've avoided everyone's taxes on a big chunk'a'money. It's reported three of the Apple subsidiaries based in Ireland and holding upwards of $70Billion don't answer to any taxing authority. None whatsoever.
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post #46 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post
 
I took a look. It's what I explained earlier, about how Apple is using Irish laws on "resident" companies to avoid tax in Ireland. What it is not saying is that Apple charges IP to sellers. That would be meaningless 

 

 

Quote: from the article

According to Stanford professor Gio Wiederhold’s 2011 paper, Apple transfers a portion of its capital (its software and designs) to something called a “controlled foreign holding company.” The holding company buys the rights to Apple’s intellectual property. The holding company then licenses the rights to a third company, also owned by Apple. This third company handles the actual selling of the product, and it receives all the revenues. It also pays the holding company licensing fees or royalties as a cost of generating income off of the intellectual property. If the cost of the licensing fees is high enough, the amount of taxable profit dwindles. All the real revenue flows to the holding company in the form of licensing fees. 

Meaningless? Avoiding billions of taxes owed in many foreign countries is not exactly meaningless.

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post #47 of 84
Let's boycott all Italian wines and sports car. I think Apple didnt greased the Italian's authorities' hands.
post #48 of 84
Legal or not, the corporations extracting billions of dollars of profit are going to have to start sharing, lest they want the system they profit from be dismantled in its entirety.
post #49 of 84
Apple's European Subsidiary is based in Ireland. The income taxes are owed to Ireland, not Italy, per European Union rules.

The Italians are simply CRAZY.

They even prosecute innocent women for murder when there is no proof.

Probably Samsung paid the Italians off in order to do this raid.
post #50 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacAir View Post
 

Well, it doesn't make sense. Someone just needs money and/or attention, it seems. However, I still can't understand how Apple gets away with 1 year guaranty when they are forced by law to give at least 2.

 

They give the two. They sell better coverage with Applecare than they are required to offer by law. So they can still upsell the coverage. That seems hard for Italy to understand as well.

post #51 of 84

Apple's response is pretty clear...

 

 

Quote:
 "Apple pays every dollar and euro it owes in taxes and we are continuously audited by governments around the world," the company said in a statement. "The Italian tax authorities already audited Apple Italy in 2007, 2008 and 2009 and confirmed that we were in full compliance with the OECD documentation and transparency requirements. We are confident the current review will reach the same conclusion."
post #52 of 84
I have no doubt that Apple is guilty of tax avoidance but that isn't illegal. On the otherhand, any tax accountant worth his salt is always pushing the boundaries between legal and illegal.
post #53 of 84

Is funny to see how some cowboys talk about something then don't know even a bit…

Stop eating hamburgers because the fat in it is ruining your brain…

post #54 of 84

   

post #55 of 84

"Let's boycott all Italian wines and sports car. I think Apple didnt greased the Italian's authorities' hands."

 

Tell this to Apple's executives and managers… ;-)

post #56 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

@adsdad: actually, the way companies can avoid paying taxes by hiding in tax havens, such as Ireland, is the real joke.
While I sadly agree with you Italy is probably doing this in a... let's say not-so-clearly-honest way, the fact three european countries now question the system's failures, not only for US-based Apple but also European oil companies and Telcos surely is a sign that it's not exclusively Apple-hate.
 

 

This has been going on for decades among multinational corporations, no matter where they come from.

 

There is no law against legally minimising taxes.

 

If the laws change, so will the ways that tax is minimised.

 

This is the way it has been and the way it always will be, as long as is cheaper to lobby or buy off the legislators than it is to pay a fair share of tax.

 

This is the way it has been for Millennia.


Edited by hill60 - 11/13/13 at 1:28pm
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post #57 of 84

Appela, she isa so doomeda!

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post #58 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

They are not avoiding Irish taxes. The way the Irish tax law is structured is that if the companies are owned by a foreign entity they are not required to pay the normal corporate rate but instead a very low 1-2% rate.

Can you please provide some documentation to show this 1-2% you claim is correct?
post #59 of 84

Shut down all the Italian Apple Stores and only let importers buy and sell Apple products locally. Take that, corrupt government!

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #60 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

They are not avoiding Irish taxes. The way the Irish tax law is structured is that if the companies are owned by a foreign entity they are not required to pay the normal corporate rate but instead a very low 1-2% rate.

Can you please provide some documentation to show this 1-2% you claim is correct?

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0521/451564-apple-tax-arrangements/

 

I found this and I know it is not a government document but it confirms that Apple only paid 2%. I can't remember where I read that the low corporate taxes designed as an incentive to encourage large global companies to locate in Ireland, but probably negotiated on a case by case basis.


Edited by mstone - 11/13/13 at 3:31pm

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post #61 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post
First it is Italy folks, it is not the cradle of business ethics that is for sure.

Unfortunately, we don't have the good boys of the American subprime trickery to teach us something.

post #62 of 84
The lesson to learn here is, all governments are corrupt, their "justice" system serves them, and not the people.

Where are the prosecutions for the NSA? The TSA's crimes (violating 4th amendment for everyone who flies)? The spying on americans phone calls that happened under the bush administration?

Government passes laws to control you, and to protect itself, and to allow it to exploit people for politicians profits.

That's all taxes are- theft.
post #63 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by water cooler View Post
Let's boycott all Italian ... sports car.

I'm sure you are someone who could otherwise buy one of them.

post #64 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post
 

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0521/451564-apple-tax-arrangements/

 

I found this and I know it is not a government document but it confirms that Apple only paid 2%. I can't remember where I read that the low corporate taxes designed as an incentive to encourage large global companies to locate in Ireland, but probably negotiated on a case by case basis.

 

2% of $Billions is better than 100% of nothing.

 

Hence the Irish will not try too hard to change the way things are.

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post #65 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessi View Post

That's all taxes are- theft.

 

Unless they are spent on services for the people, healthcare for instance.

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post #66 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post
 

 

Unless they are spent on services for the people, healthcare for instance.

 

I agree taxation has become essentially codified theft, however it IS constitutional.

 

And by the way, the Constitution does not allow the Federal government leeway to run healthcare or be involved in any way in the health matters of individuals. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." (that taken from the 10th Amendment)... Those words mean something. They are a contract between the people, the government and the nation. The Federal government, the Congress and the President have ALL broken that contract.

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post #67 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post


A Cupertino cappuccino storm?

 

And is it a grande Americano?

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post #68 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I agree taxation has become essentially codified theft, however it IS constitutional.

And by the way, the Constitution does not allow the Federal government leeway to run healthcare or be involved in any way in the health matters of individuals. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." (that taken from the 10th Amendment)... Those words mean something. They are a contract between the people, the government and the nation. The Federal government, the Congress and the President have ALL broken that contract.
And don't forget the Republican Supreme Court agreed.
Hmmmm. Somebody doesn't understand the constitution. I wonder who it is.

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post #69 of 84
Ahh, did Apple forget to pay their "protection money" lol
post #70 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by macaholic_1948 View Post

It's autocorrect's failure to indicate I hit a "b" and a "c" instead of the space bare (<— autocorrect's version of "bar").

If you read between the letters it's either a fancy chocolate delight or "to lose once".

LOL, welcome to my world. I must say it hit Google fast too! Better think up a meaning, it'll be in the language in days. 1biggrin.gif https://www.google.com/#q=tobloseconce
Edited by digitalclips - 11/13/13 at 6:36pm
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post #71 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacAir View Post

And that's fair game, as everyone knows, including Italy.

I fail to see how they will justify such stupid action once Apple flexes their muscles out of this. However, it was a really low-blow.

Even if Apple quickly wins the process or if the whole thing is thrown away for "lack of evidence", the people's court already decided: Apple is guilty. They trick costumers and steal money! /s

And this is where Apple needs a ruthless guy like Bezos: Just buy media outlets and force your opinion and POV. Competitors will fear you. No one will mess with you.

Maybe Apple should buy Fox Corp and rearrange it's reporting priorities. Market cap is only just over $6.5 Billion, loose change for Apple. 1biggrin.gif
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post #72 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post
 

Italy is probably owed some taxes. Since Apple is a US company and has a headquarters in Italy, what does Ireland have to do with any of this? Sounds fishy to me.

 

Ireland generally has a lot do to with many corporations' profits.

 

From Forbes:

Apple has an Irish holding company with no operations or employees at the top of its foreign operations. This company also serves as a group finance company. Apple Inc., the U.S. parent of the whole group, pays U.S. tax on the investment earnings of this company. Otherwise, the holding company pays no tax to any government, and has not paid tax for five years. It claims tax residence nowhere.

Beneath the holding company is an Irish principal company that holds the contracts with Apple’s Chinese contract manufacturers and owns the inventory they produce. It also claims tax residence nowhere, despite having paid some tax to Ireland in recent years, but at rate far below the statutory rate. It and another Apple operating affiliate share the foreign rights to Apple’s U.S. based technology.

Ireland is a tax haven.

post #73 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid View Post

Appela, she isa so doomeda!

You forgot this:

post #74 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0521/451564-apple-tax-arrangements/

I found this and I know it is not a government document but it confirms that Apple only paid 2%. I can't remember where I read that the low corporate taxes designed as an incentive to encourage large global companies to locate in Ireland, but probably negotiated on a case by case basis.

Thanks.

Which two of their subsidiaries are they talking about?
post #75 of 84

First of all, if Fiat were to close its plants in the USA it would be bankrupt instantly.

In Italy Fiat is collapsing ...

post #76 of 84

You have make a perfect hit.

post #77 of 84

Now all is ok.

 

Apple has hired as its lawyer Ms. Paola Severino, former Italian Minister of Justice.

 

The matter is closed !

post #78 of 84
Apple sells in Italy as an Irish company so they pay their taxes in Ireland, obviusly they have an headquarter in italy, but wiht a barely legal escamotages (the double Irish) they can circumvente italian taxes.
This is the same for Microsoft Google facebook ecc. but this time seem that Apple has done something wrong.

the strange thing is that my 2012 macbook air was sent from Cork in Ireland but my ipad air was sent from Milan
post #79 of 84

Italian government is after Apple for corruption? What did someone miss a payment?

post #80 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Why the fcuk do you think companies need to transfer IP to sell?

They don't need to. But it's something they can choose to do, and by doing so they may be able to transfer a tax liability from a high tax jurisdiction to a low one.  It's not unreasonable to suggest that Apple are doing this as part of routine tax affairs.  Not necessarily an evasion or avoidance.

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