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Appellate court breathes new life into Apple's quest for Samsung Android device ban

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
A federal appeals court on Monday ordered that Apple's request for a permanent injunction on sales of Samsung-manufactured Android devices be reconsidered by the lower court judge who originally denied it.

Apple v Samsung
A slide from the Apple v. Samsung trial


The ruling, handed down by the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, puts the possibility of a wide-ranging ban on sales of Samsung devices back into the hands of District Court Judge Lucy Koh, according to patent expert Florian Mueller of FOSS Patents. Mueller believes that following the ruling, "an injunction is now rather likely."

The appellate court upheld Judge Koh's objections to the request based on Apple's design patents and trade dress -- i.e. look-and-feel -- concerns, but took issue with the judge's interpretation of the legal hurdles facing the technical patents in question.
After the appellate decision, Apple's request for an injunction will likely be granted.
According to the appellate court, "rather than show that a patented feature is the exclusive reason for consumer demand, Apple must show some connection between the patented feature and demand for Samsung's products." Judge Koh had previously ruled that Apple was not entitled to an injunction because none of the technical patents involved could be shown to be the sole reason a consumer might choose a Samsung phone over an iPhone.

The court suggested that either evidence "that a patented feature is one of several features that cause consumers to make their purchasing decisions" or evidence that inclusion or exclusion of a particular patented feature would make the product significantly more or less desirable to consumers would satisfy the requirement.

If successful, the injunction could have significant consequences for Samsung. Rather than a ban on a specific set of devices, Apple has asked that the injunction also apply to devices that are no more than "colorably different" from those already at issue in the suit, according to Mueller.

A colorable difference is a legal term referring to a change made to a product specifically to avoid litigation in the event of an intellectual property dispute. This means that current or even future Samsung products could be caught in the injunction's net if Samsung does not either strike a licensing deal with Apple or make substantial changes to the products' engineering.
post #2 of 42
Things are about to get interesting...
NoahJ
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"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #3 of 42
It's not just Samsung that Apple should go after, it is all Android devices.
post #4 of 42
"Crush the enemy. See them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women."
post #5 of 42
Wow. I'll believe this when I hear from FOSS Patents

Windows survivor - after a long, epic and painful struggle. Very long AAPL

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post #6 of 42
Does that apply to the older devices only that Samsung does not sell anymore?
post #7 of 42

I am not sure why so many people are having a hard time understanding this. Yes Apple has patents on various design pieces as well as the whole trade dress and such.

 

Look at this way, image Kia copying the Chevy Corvette exactly by making it out cheap plastic verses Aluminum and Fiberglass  and selling in the US market for 1/2 of what what Chevy sells the Corvette. Do you really think that the Kia Corvette would be on the market all that long. They could be completely shut down. 

 

I pick Kia since they tend to copy other car manufactures looks, but on more basic cars they have not attempt yet to copy something like a Corvette. Their Mini Van looks like the Ford Windstar, but I suspect Ford allowed them to copy the design.

 

Anyway, I am not sure why it is okay to copy electronics but it would not be okay to copy a car like a Corvette. I am not sure every piece of how the Corvette works and feels is covered under patents.

post #8 of 42

why in the world is a Korean judge used in this case?

post #9 of 42
Ban em!!!!
post #10 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosslad View Post

It's not just Samsung that Apple should go after, it is all Android devices.

They did a deal with HTC, so HTC is kind of covered.

 

What I think is so stupid, is that Samsung ADMITS to copying Apple in a US court, but what about the other courts that didn't side with Apple?  Maybe they should reopen those in light of Samsung's admittance to copying Apple's design.  Since that UK judge now works for Samsung as a consultant, they can get a judge that actually be more reasonable.  It's obvious that UK was just slimy.  

post #11 of 42
Samsung have obviously stopped paying him.
post #12 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosslad View Post

It's not just Samsung that Apple should go after, it is all Android devices.


Starting with the largest and most obvious violator.  If Apple is successful in legally shutting them down, it'll be the shot heard around the world and will put the others on notice that they better change their practices or face Apple's wrath.

I think what will happen is when Apple is about to tighten the noose for the final pull, Samsung will jettison Android and go 100% on TizenOS.  Android was just an interim setup until they can get the momentum to go on their own proprietary setup after using the Fandroids like the tools they are.

post #13 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post
 


Starting with the largest and most obvious violator.  If Apple is successful in legally shutting them down, it'll be the shot heard around the world and will put the others on notice that they better change their practices or face Apple's wrath.

I think what will happen is when Apple is about to tighten the noose for the final pull, Samsung will jettison Android and go 100% on TizenOS.  Android was just an interim setup until they can get the momentum to go on their own proprietary setup after using the Fandroids like the tools they are.

I'm not convinced with Tizen as being that big of a deal.  I know people like to hype things ahead of their success, but so far TIzen isn't worth discussing until they actually present some real honest numbers as to it's success rate within the mobile device market share.  

post #14 of 42
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
why in the world is a Korean judge used in this case?

 

American.

 

Originally Posted by Evilution View Post
Samsung have obviously stopped paying him.

 

Her.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
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Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #15 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

I'm not convinced with Tizen as being that big of a deal.  I know people like to hype things ahead of their success, but so far TIzen isn't worth discussing until they actually present some real honest numbers as to it's success rate within the mobile device market share.  


Personally, I think Tizen is going to crash and burn.  Samsung is horrible with software so there is no reason for me to think that they will do any better with it than compared to Android.  I just don't think that Samsung likes having to be in bed with Google, but that it was necessary for the time being to be able to copy Apple quickly.  Now that they have enough steam built up, they can dump them after they make the front-end of Tizen appear just like Android so that the "regular" users don't notice anything.

post #16 of 42
I think most here would agree that Samsung blatantly copied the iPhone and only changed things to create sufficient differences in attempt to avoid litigation.

My opinion is that unless Samsung is forced to pay a fine equal to all revenue made on the infringing products then Samsung has won. I say "revenue" because they have been using all revenue to continue creating competing products. There is no real penalty unless that penalty is greater than the profit from such infringing products. I believe that will definitely not be the case (that Samsung will be sufficiently penalized), which tells Samsung and the other Android phone manufacturers and many other companies that the profit outweighs the penalty.
post #17 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

American.

 

 

Her.

 

She is Korean.  I'm Asian. 

 

Just makes no sense to have a Korean judge.  Just looks bad with Samsung being found guilty of bribery/threats/blackmail in Korea.  No doubt she has relatives still living in Korea.

post #18 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post
 


Personally, I think Tizen is going to crash and burn.  Samsung is horrible with software so there is no reason for me to think that they will do any better with it than compared to Android.  I just don't think that Samsung likes having to be in bed with Google, but that it was necessary for the time being to be able to copy Apple quickly.  Now that they have enough steam built up, they can dump them after they make the front-end of Tizen appear just like Android so that the "regular" users don't notice anything.

But, but, but, they have Bada.  Wasn't Samsung so successful with that OS platform?    /s

post #19 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletus View Post

"Crush the enemy. See them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women."

LOL

Cletus, you barbarian!

1wink.gif
My car keeps crashing whenever I do 150mph. It's a design flaw. People tell me to slow down and drive normally but I should be able to use it as I wish.
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post #20 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

She is Korean.  I'm Asian. 

Washington is part of Korea now?

Isn't technology these days marvellous!
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post #21 of 42
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

She is Korean.

 

American. Born in Washington D.C. She’s Korean in the same way I’m German, Swiss, Irish, and British: Not at all.

 

Just makes no sense to have a Korean judge.

 

That’s why they got an American judge.

 

Just looks bad with Samsung being found guilty of bribery/threats/blackmail in Korea.

 

Is this lawsuit in Korea?

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #22 of 42
I wouldn't underestimate the networking power of a mighty chaebol from a country where the bloodlines are measured over thousand years.
post #23 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

American. Born in Washington D.C. She’s Korean in the same way I’m German, Swiss, Irish, and British: Not at all.

 

That’s why they got an American judge.

 

 

Is this lawsuit in Korea?

 

Please. Visit Korea and your eyes will be opened.

 

If she has any relatives in Korea I would question her judgement.  Samsung is the Corleone Family in the Godfather x1000.  Hell their CEO is a two time convicted FELON who was pardoned twice by the President of Korea.

 

I don't blame her either.  They could make her families life in Korea a living hell with a snap of a finger.

post #24 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

I am not sure why so many people are having a hard time understanding this. Yes Apple has patents on various design pieces as well as the whole trade dress and such.

Look at this way, image Kia copying the Chevy Corvette exactly by making it out cheap plastic verses Aluminum and Fiberglass  and selling in the US market for 1/2 of what what Chevy sells the Corvette. Do you really think that the Kia Corvette would be on the market all that long. They could be completely shut down. 

I pick Kia since they tend to copy other car manufactures looks, but on more basic cars they have not attempt yet to copy something like a Corvette. Their Mini Van looks like the Ford Windstar, but I suspect Ford allowed them to copy the design.

Anyway, I am not sure why it is okay to copy electronics but it would not be okay to copy a car like a Corvette. I am not sure every piece of how the Corvette works and feels is covered under patents.

The US Appeals Court remanded only on the utility patents. They agreed with Judge Koh that injunctions for the design patents wouldn't be proper so her original ruling denying those stands. Covered in the article for those confused by the many claims and rulings.
Edited by Gatorguy - 11/18/13 at 1:48pm
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post #25 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

Wow. I'll believe this when I hear from FOSS Patents

 

Please don't confuse the issue.

 

FOSS patents are required to make the phone function -- companies push to have their tech included in FOSS so that everyone licenses them, and in exchange, they keep the price low and fair. Some companies were using FOSS to extract IP from Apple.

 

Apple's complaint with SAMSUNG has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with FOSS.

post #26 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

Please. Visit Korea and your eyes will be opened.

 

If she has any relatives in Korea I would question her judgement.  Samsung is the Corleone Family in the Godfather x1000.  Hell their CEO is a two time convicted FELON who was pardoned twice by the President of Korea.

 

I don't blame her either.  They could make her families life in Korea a living hell with a snap of a finger.


Yeah, I don't get all the American's with their "new love" for Samsung merely because it's not Apple. They treat Apple as either "prima donnas who pretend to patent and do nothing but sue" or as some sort of step child of Microsoft's business practices. Apple is very protective of their IP -- but that's because they were very passive and almost lost the store to Microsoft who ripped off their entire concept and system while they were developing apps for Apple. My urge to gag will have to be constrained by the usual ignorant reference to Xerox Parc, as if Apple didn't pay to visit and diverged GREATLY from the designs, and implementation of those ideas they witnessed.

 

They take a few FORBES sourced stories about Apple using "Chinese sweatshops" -- without context of absolutely everyone else using these same companies.

 

Then champion Samsung, who won't be bringing jobs to the USA, has always used sweat shops, has always "copied" as a form of complement. Without any appreciation of what a bottom feeder they are.

 

tl;dnr

Apple has been aggressive -- they are not acting like a patent troll or stealing IP.

Apple is an actual innovator -- saying they aren't is just being ignorant.

Samsung is not a good behaving company by any stretch.

Samsung winning is not in our best interest, even if we don't like Apple.

post #27 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post
 

 

Please don't confuse the issue.

 

FOSS patents are required to make the phone function -- companies push to have their tech included in FOSS so that everyone licenses them, and in exchange, they keep the price low and fair. Some companies were using FOSS to extract IP from Apple.

 

Apple's complaint with SAMSUNG has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with FOSS.

 

I believe the post was referring to;

http://www.fosspatents.com/

 

It was mentioned in the article.

post #28 of 42
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post
Please don’t confuse the issue.

 

Irony much? You’re thinking of FRAND. FOSS is some guy with a website.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

Wow. I'll believe this when I hear from FOSS Patents

So what are you waiting for?  Click on the supplied link (the blue text "according to") in the story.

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See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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post #30 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Irony much? You’re thinking of FRAND. FOSS is some guy with a website.

FOSS refers to something Mueller used to be committed to before he found he could make more money by blogging in support of those who don't believe in it and would rather it disappeared. So now rather than fight Microsoft as he did for years and years he counts them as a client. You'll never hear another Florian peep of displeasure with them now.

Anyway FOSS is an acronym meaning "Free or Open Source Software". A FOSS program is one that is freely licensed for individual, and even commercial use in some cases. Users can modify it, distribute it and use it for pretty much any purpose.
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post #31 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

Please. Visit Korea and your eyes will be opened.

If she has any relatives in Korea I would question her judgement.  Samsung is the Corleone Family in the Godfather x1000.  Hell their CEO is a two time convicted FELON who was pardoned twice by the President of Korea.

I don't blame her either.  They could make her families life in Korea a living hell with a snap of a finger.

For once I agree with TS. As someone who had lived in Korea and not just visited there, your assertion that an American born judge who may have Korean relatives can't make impartial judgements is uninformed and offensive.
post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulk001 View Post

As someone who had lived in Korea and not just visited there, your assertion that an American born judge who may have Korean relatives can't make impartial judgements is uninformed and offensive.

Yeah, he needs to put a sog in it.
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post #33 of 42
Mr. Mueller believes an injection is highly likely!
post #34 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak View Post

Wow. I'll believe this when I hear from FOSS Patents

 

Precisely. ANY story presented here is subject to closer scrutiny thanks to their history of misreporting.

 

This bit from the FOSS Patents site is interesting (emphasis mine):

 

Quote:

"We find no reason to dislodge the district court's conclusion that Apple failed to demonstrate irreparable harm from Samsung’s infringement of its design patents. Accordingly, we affirm the denial of injunctive relief with respect to those patents. However, with respect to Apple's utility patents, we conclude that the district court abused its discretion in its analysis and consequently remand for further proceedings."

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #35 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosslad View Post

It's not just Samsung that Apple should go after, it is all Android devices.

Well why would you go after someone that hasn't made a profit? They'll be a negative award which means you'll owe them money lol.gif
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post #36 of 42
Sammy forgot to bribe somebody
post #37 of 42
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post #38 of 42
Time for Sammy to pay real Apple Tax!
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post #39 of 42

​Until the court agrees to impose an embargo on the latest "colorably different" Samsung devices, the ruling would be almost useless. Let's see what happens.

post #40 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post
 

I am not sure why so many people are having a hard time understanding this. Yes Apple has patents on various design pieces as well as the whole trade dress and such.

 

Look at this way, image Kia copying the Chevy Corvette exactly by making it out cheap plastic verses Aluminum and Fiberglass  and selling in the US market for 1/2 of what what Chevy sells the Corvette. Do you really think that the Kia Corvette would be on the market all that long. They could be completely shut down. 

 

I pick Kia since they tend to copy other car manufactures looks, but on more basic cars they have not attempt yet to copy something like a Corvette. Their Mini Van looks like the Ford Windstar, but I suspect Ford allowed them to copy the design.

 

Anyway, I am not sure why it is okay to copy electronics but it would not be okay to copy a car like a Corvette. I am not sure every piece of how the Corvette works and feels is covered under patents.

Kia don't "copy" as you put it, they have agreements with other manufacturers to use their old/current designs. many companies do this in the motor industry. Proton have a car based 100% on the Mitubishi Lancer, they even make a proton version of the Evo X! Mazda in the UK released a car that was identical to the Ford Fiesta in all but the badges. Daewoo have several "clone" cars too. It's not just the small asian manufacturers tho, sometimes the big players share designs to save money too, the Vauxhall/Opel (GM) Agila is identical to the Suzuki Wagon R. Even just this/last year Subaru and Toyota jointly released a roadster, only the badges and a few exterior tweaks separated them, same engine etc. Last one for ya... Toyota Aygo (£8995) vs Aston Martin Cygnet (£44000!), essentially the same car 'cept for a few high end cosmetic tweaks on the aston version ;).

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