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Irish school's attempt to replace books with HP tablets results in 'unmitigated disaster' - Page 4

post #121 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Never said they overcharge, just that it's cheaper to buy them In the US. Personally, I actually think all these gadgets are cheap, I used to pay 3000 dollars for a Sony Picturebook and that was before I was making real money. I'm not really sure what your trying to prove.

I didn't mean you. I said when non-US people on this site say that Apple are ripping them off, the US answer is, exchange rate, VAT , cost of business etc, etc. Now we have an article that decides to convert the price to US$ and the US people are trying to say US$741 is too expensive you can by an iPad for $699. You can't honestly directly convert these prices as there are a number of different factors influencing them.

But yes, things are a lot cheaper now, my first Mac Mini cost over $2000, now I can get the same for $1200
post #122 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

For a minute there I thought this was my junior high school teacher describing me.

Aaaahhh sweety, I'm sure you were loved by your teachers as much as we adore you here.

Ah, Relic, you always make me smile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

I can password protect my child's iPad but like most kids nowadays, they know more about these devices then we do and will just bipass whatever security I implement. I'm so proud, I mean bad children, no no.

Again and again!
I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
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I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
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post #123 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by water cooler View Post



Sounds like they didn't even negotiated for a pool buy, instead bought them individually, perhaps they know if the oarents go to return it themselves, the generate foot traffic, pollute the air with added trips, I wont trust to send my kids to be educated in that dumb country. Afterall, dont they have a Noble Sir in charge of education?

 

Dumb country?

 

Actually Ireland has a pretty good education system with pretty good outcomes.  Amazing how you jump to such a conclusion about an entire country on the basis of the supposed actions of a single school.

post #124 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

While it's the mfgt responsibility to deliver a working product, I'd blame the schools' IT guys. They should've tested this thoroughly, which obviously wasn't the case.


Well you can't be sure. The IT guys might have been given test models with different quality than the "roll out models". Or when they rolled it out, they tested with installed software, and in production they were "distributing" software. So my guess they were promised by an HP salesman that their "distribution was just as good as iTunes for a local intranet installing apps."

Indeed, we can't be sure. One thing I am sure of is that I would've handled this better. I would take a test unit, and after approval test a small batch, then a larger batch and so on. I do think IT is to blame here. Yes yes, probably HP/MS as well, but I'm talking 'from my own perspective' here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

A few weeks ago I had to complete an Irish Income tax return and upload the completed return via the  website.  This process can not be accomplished on an iPad.

I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
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I’d rather have a better product than a better price.
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post #125 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


So, maybe you're right about that one thing. But that's not software itself. Some places still require Windows. But you are wrong about everything else.

 

It's not about Windows.  I prepared my return on my Macbook as they actually had a version of their software for OSX.  The twist was that their website requires that you have Java installed in order to be able to use it.

 

How was I wrong about everything else when the only part I mentioned disagreeing with was:

Quote:
 You can browse the web better than on a computer

 

Which I highlighted in bold to designate the bit I was referring to?

post #126 of 181
This might provide some balance to the disaster in the LA Unified School District where students easily bypassed restrictions on the use of iPads issued to them in lieu of textbooks.
The problem, in both cases, is the unrealistic expectations of school administrators. They really don't understand what they are paying for, not even after an 18 month "investigation."
post #127 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I didn't mean you. I said when non-US people on this site say that Apple are ripping them off, the US answer is, exchange rate, VAT , cost of business etc, etc. Now we have an article that decides to convert the price to US$ and the US people are trying to say US$741 is too expensive you can by an iPad for $699. You can't honestly directly convert these prices as there are a number of different factors influencing them.

But yes, things are a lot cheaper now, my first Mac Mini cost over $2000, now I can get the same for $1200

Four years ago, when my daughter was first entering University in London, we were told to buy her Macbook Pro here in the US, because all electronics were more expensive there. In addition, the UK adds 10% to the price, if less than 50% of the value of the device is added there. It would t surprise me if Apple is making a smaller profit in many places overseas.
post #128 of 181
The difference between theory (sales pitches) and reality (HP MS in classrooms) is much greater in reality.
post #129 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

It's not about Windows.  I prepared my return on my Macbook as they actually had a version of their software for OSX.  The twist was that their website requires that you have Java installed in order to be able to use it.

How was I wrong about everything else when the only part I mentioned disagreeing with was:

Which I highlighted in bold to designate the bit I was referring to?

Ok, I didn't realize you highlighted that, I thought he had. I stand corrected in that then.
post #130 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomMcIn View Post

The difference between theory (sales pitches) and reality (HP MS in classrooms) is much greater in reality.

 

Which is exactly what LA Unified discovered, only it was the roll out of iPads that turned out to be the disaster. At least Ireland realized that tablets in the classroom was an idea not quite ready for prime time, whereas here in the states, we admit defeat by decreasing the 2014 allotment from 135 million to just 45.

post #131 of 181
They spent 18 months evaluating and settled on a Windows 8 tablet from HP costing $741? Just imagine how bad their decision would have been it they're rushed it up.
post #132 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by realpaulfreeman View Post

The school fell into a trap laid by Microsoft, the illusion of transferring a laptop's use cases to a tablet. The allure of transferring all the existing software investment is part of the attraction. Schools are full of unnecessary proprietary software when there are plenty of open source alternatives like Libreoffice now.

The dyed in the wool corporate types I know all prophesied that tablets like the Surface would beat the iPad because the were 'proper' PC's in tablet form. Its a mistake, a 'category' error, tablets are not PC's.

The reality is that the modality of the tablet is quite different from a PC or laptop. Students need laptops to do laptop things, at least with the current level of technology. If all they need to do is read an ebook then nearly any tablet will suffice, and there are many cheaper including some from Apple.

The Principal of the school is partly to blame for falling into the trap, but the trap has been laid by the vendors who are more culpable because they ought to know better.

It is not illusion. I have been using ThinkPad Tablet 2 at home for the last 3 months... and it almost completely replaced my laptop. I still carry laptop with me for travels as tablet, while technically can, is too slow for Lightroom... but everything else I use laptop for can be done in acceptable manner.

Please note, I'm talking about tablet vs. laptop only. I still use desktop at home for demanding tasks and games... so at home, laptop is all but pointless for me right now.

As for this school. There are many good reasons to go this path. Office works fine on that hardware (and might be requirement in that school). Elitepads have docks with support for 2 monitors, couple of USB ports for desktop keyboard and mouse. And manageability is good from IT support point of view, since tablets are full x86 machines. They can be covered with same group policies school might be applying to other laptops and desktops.

Problems, as described, seems to be fully on manufacturer side; hardware and drivers' problems. We have selected ThinkPad tablet as our standard Windows tablet option, and haven't experienced none of those. Windows 8.1 update has prolonged wake from sleep time to around 5 seconds, but this problem was sorted with Intel's driver update which was aired within a few weeks since 8.1 release. First tablet we have purchased had problem with one of speakers (crackling sound) which was sorted quickly by Lenovo support. We haven't seen spontaneous sleep, freezing, BSODs or any other problem on these tablets, both our in-house and customers.

I came across info on other schools that implemented/are implementing Windows tablets (such as http://www.wpcentral.com/schools-windows-8-tablets) and haven't heard of rampart problems such as Irish school is experiencing... so I really wouldn't nail it on platform, but rather on specific OEM. After all, there's a reason HP is not number 1 Windows OEM anymore...
post #133 of 181

HP tablets, 'They're Magically Mischievous'!  

 

"They're always after my lucky charms"

/

/

/

Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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post #134 of 181

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 


This feature exists since the beginning of iOS.  I think MS has a lot of time to copy it to Windows 8. 

Did you research whether it existed elsewhere prior to that? Mouseover notations have existed for many years.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


I didn't mean you. I said when non-US people on this site say that Apple are ripping them off, the US answer is, exchange rate, VAT , cost of business etc, etc. Now we have an article that decides to convert the price to US$ and the US people are trying to say US$741 is too expensive you can by an iPad for $699. You can't honestly directly convert these prices as there are a number of different factors influencing them.

But yes, things are a lot cheaper now, my first Mac Mini cost over $2000, now I can get the same for $1200

 

That is a very good point. People in the US compare converted prices to US pricing.

post #135 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But that software isn't qualified for use in a tablet with a small screen, a stylus, and the not so hot typing covers. All that software needs to be requalified for that use, which means extensive rewriting of the UI.

Do we know their exact usage scenario? HP does have proper docking station for ElitePads, which will provide connection for two standard LCD screens; this could be the reason why school went for ElitePat instead of HP's other tablet, Envy X2 (which has more common keyboard "dock").

Using tablet in "desktop" mode in classrooms (and maybe at home/dorm), and still having tablet portability in school mess, outdoors or in public transport... does not sound as such a bad idea.
post #136 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 

 

 

Did you research whether it existed elsewhere prior to that? Mouseover notations have existed for many years.

 

 

I don't think mouseover is the same as the one on iOS I talked about. 


Edited by tzeshan - 11/21/13 at 4:34pm
post #137 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


It is not illusion. I have been using ThinkPad Tablet 2 at home for the last 3 months... and it almost completely replaced my laptop. I still carry laptop with me for travels as tablet, while technically can, is too slow for Lightroom... but everything else I use laptop for can be done in acceptable manner.

Please note, I'm talking about tablet vs. laptop only. I still use desktop at home for demanding tasks and games... so at home, laptop is all but pointless for me right now.

As for this school. There are many good reasons to go this path. Office works fine on that hardware (and might be requirement in that school). Elitepads have docks with support for 2 monitors, couple of USB ports for desktop keyboard and mouse. And manageability is good from IT support point of view, since tablets are full x86 machines. They can be covered with same group policies school might be applying to other laptops and desktops.

Problems, as described, seems to be fully on manufacturer side; hardware and drivers' problems. We have selected ThinkPad tablet as our standard Windows tablet option, and haven't experienced none of those. Windows 8.1 update has prolonged wake from sleep time to around 5 seconds, but this problem was sorted with Intel's driver update which was aired within a few weeks since 8.1 release. First tablet we have purchased had problem with one of speakers (crackling sound) which was sorted quickly by Lenovo support. We haven't seen spontaneous sleep, freezing, BSODs or any other problem on these tablets, both our in-house and customers.

I came across info on other schools that implemented/are implementing Windows tablets (such as http://www.wpcentral.com/schools-windows-8-tablets) and haven't heard of rampart problems such as Irish school is experiencing... so I really wouldn't nail it on platform, but rather on specific OEM. After all, there's a reason HP is not number 1 Windows OEM anymore...

Yaaayyy, I'm so happy. There's actually someone else on this board who's actually used a Windows 8 tablet. I have one too, the Lenovo, I really enjoy it as well and honestly don't understand all the hatred towards this platform. It's the closest to what my ideal work tablet (didn't say home, the iPad still rules their, so don't lash out) should be, as of yet. I have high hopes for Ubuntu Touch, call me a dreamer.

When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #138 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post
 

 

Dumb country?

 

Actually Ireland has a pretty good education system with pretty good outcomes.  Amazing how you jump to such a conclusion about an entire country on the basis of the supposed actions of a single school.

Top 20 educational systems in order according to BBC, of course the Fins win, there's nothing to do up there but read, just kidding;

 

Finland
South Korea
Hong Kong
Japan
Singapore
UK
Netherlands
New Zealand
Switzerland
Canada
Ireland
Denmark
Australia
Poland
Germany
Belgium
USA
Hungary
Slovakia
Russia 


Edited by Relic - 11/21/13 at 5:01pm
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
Reply
When I looked up "Ninjas" in Thesaurus.com, it said "Ninja's can't be found" Well played Ninjas, well played.
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post #139 of 181
I have seen the same thing happen with Windows PC's vs Macs for years now. Often decisions to go to Windows on PC are made by someone in Administration who has a 'friend' in the organisation that sells the PC's, no surprise there. You scratch my back...
post #140 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Binkwilder View Post

Windows 8 is a dud.  I have been a fan or Windows for over 2 decades.  I don't understand Win 8.  I also would never buy anything with the HP logo on it.  Android or Apple really should have been their choice.  What rational mind could have come up with Win 8 and HP.  They should be fired.
They obviously fell for all that Microsoft marketing. 1smile.gif
post #141 of 181
Originally Posted by nikilok View Post
They obviously fell for all that Microsoft marketing. 1smile.gif

 

Obviously. The Irish are suckers for synchronized dancing. I mean, look at Riverdance, for heaven’s sake.

 

Having taken classes in the original content myself, I wish to go on record to state that I recognize fully that Riverdance is neither indicative nor representative of traditional Irish folk dance and by all accounts is sexualized and commercialized far more than its foundational predecessor. The management regrets any and all misinterpretation read into the above statement and what the heck is up with Huddler refusing to format the line spacing of 8pt font correctly?

post #142 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Obviously. The Irish are suckers for synchronized dancing. I mean, look at Riverdance, for heaven’s sake.

 

Having taken classes in the original content myself, I wish to go on record to state that I recognize fully that Riverdance is neither indicative nor representative of traditional Irish folk dance and by all accounts is sexualized and commercialized far more than its foundational predecessor. The management regrets any and all misinterpretation read into the above statement and what the heck is up with Huddler refusing to format the line spacing of 8pt font correctly?


I wish Michael Flatley would come and take you away right now.

post #143 of 181
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
I wish Michael Flatley would come and take you away right now.

 

He’s coming to take me away, ha ha! He’s coming to take me away, ho ho hee hee ha ha to the Emerald Isle where life is beautiful all the time and I’ll be happy to see those nice young men with their big red beards and they’re coming to take me away!

 

Know what, you could Riverdance to that song.

post #144 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Yaaayyy, I'm so happy. There's actually someone else on this board who's actually used a Windows 8 tablet. I have one too, the Lenovo, I really enjoy it as well and honestly don't understand all the hatred towards this platform. It's the closest to what my ideal work tablet (didn't say home, the iPad still rules their, so don't lash out) should be, as of yet. I have high hopes for Ubuntu Touch, call me a dreamer.

Yah I think it's great... and I did spend decent time with iPad and Android tablets, and both platforms were fine... but TPT2 just works better for my usage scenarios. As in, easy access to shared folders on my "home network" etc.
post #145 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

He’s coming to take me away, ha ha! He’s coming to take me away, ho ho hee hee ha ha to the Emerald Isle where life is beautiful all the time and I’ll be happy to see those nice young men with their big red beards and they’re coming to take me away!

 

Know what, you could Riverdance to that song.


That was actually a reference to Labyrinth.

post #146 of 181

OK, don't everyone get all mad...

 

 

 

Why did God invent alcohol?

 

 

To stop the Irish from ruling the world! :)

post #147 of 181
As with all corporate purchases, they have to pass through an IT department. Whose entire existence relies on buggy and crappy software/hardware combinations. Without Microsoft they face extinction. Therefore they would never entertain Apple products for fear of losing their jobs. This attitude is prevalent in the corporate world that is why Apple can't break through. I worked in design agencies fully kitted out with macs, we never had an IT department, the stuff was maintained by the people that used it, with very little effort or problem. That's what corporate IT is afraid of. And that's why they continually purchase this type of shit. Windows 8 should be scrapped immediately it is a complete failure from a user perspective, it should never have been forced on the desktop/laptop.
post #148 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post

Delta airline pilots using the Surface as an electronic bag.

 

Toilet. electronic toilet.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #149 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


I clearly highlighted in bold the bit you got wrong.

You mean you highlighted the bit you got wrong.
Do you have an iPad? Otherwise you should know what I am talking about.
post #150 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Ok, I didn't realize you highlighted that, I thought he had. I stand corrected in that then.

Editing the text you quote isn't a good practice and should not be done. Seems a bit of a 'trap' to me.

One of the best things of the iPad is Safari, pinch and zoom and drag are a lot more natural to use and result in super fast browsing.
When I use Safari on the web I often search for the mouse equivalent, that isn't there.
Page load times are on par with the current hardware, so that's not a disadvantage for the ipad anymore.
The fact that you can read web pages everywhere and can position it like a book makes Safari on the iPad al the more superior to Safari on the Mac.
post #151 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowitall View Post


You mean you highlighted the bit you got wrong.
Do you have an iPad? Otherwise you should know what I am talking about.


Your claim was that interacting with the web via a browser is superior to doing so on a full fledged PC.  It is not.  It simply is not possible to complete a tax return and submit the completed form from an iPad where I live.  Nor can you use important elements of many websites that use flash.

post #152 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 


That was actually a reference to Labyrinth.

 

And that's an improvement over taking a poke at the River Dancer? A bad movie with lots of 2nd string muppets?

post #153 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post
 


You are a fanatic and don't know what you are talking about.  Your claim was that interacting with the web via a browser is superior to doing so on a full fledged PC.  It is not.  It simply is not possible to complete a tax return and submit the completed form from an iPad where I live.  Nor can you use important elements of many websites that use flash.

I'm not going to argue that more sites won't work on a laptop than an iPad -- but I wills say; what is your real goal? In a school it's something that is seamless and almost impossible to break.

 

So a "free and open" laptop is going to be crippled in that matter of a month. You will get recursive pop-ups and man in the middle attacks whenever you try to go to google. I'm thinking here that YES someone is partisan, but on the other hand, what is "superior" is a device that can actually be used in a Classroom.

 

Not having a keyboard is a BONUS, not running Flash and Java is, depending on situation a blessing and a curse. YMMV.

post #154 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaba View Post

As with all corporate purchases, they have to pass through an IT department. Whose entire existence relies on buggy and crappy software/hardware combinations. Without Microsoft they face extinction. Therefore they would never entertain Apple products for fear of losing their jobs. This attitude is prevalent in the corporate world that is why Apple can't break through. I worked in design agencies fully kitted out with macs, we never had an IT department, the stuff was maintained by the people that used it, with very little effort or problem. That's what corporate IT is afraid of. And that's why they continually purchase this type of shit. Windows 8 should be scrapped immediately it is a complete failure from a user perspective, it should never have been forced on the desktop/laptop.

 

I'd say it has a lot more to do with workflow. Outlook and Exchange server scheduling your day. Remote controlled systems and virtual networks for roving salespeople. There are plenty of solutions to do all these things on a Mac but they are not well known or part of the Workflow.

 

Just as the iPhone has given Apple a Halo -- Microsoft Office and their business solutions have given a Halo to their OS. Windows is fairly reliable if you can lock it down on an enterprise level.

 

You don't need to do that with Macs, so IT looks at the concept of; "Well, I can't create a closed intranet and co-location of the OS -- it's not ready for business." And 90% of the reasons they do all this nonsense with PCs is because they break if you "play" with what you put on them. Due to the registry structure, sometimes the only way to fix a PC is to wipe the hard drive and re-install everything. An almost foreign concept to a Mac user.

 

The IT guys at my large (ish) office were the ones who used to always make fun of me for using a Mac. Then they got an iPhone and then a Mac and probably because the company didn't lock it down, it made it seem a lot better. But that IT guy became the biggest Mac fan and started harassing other Windows users. I thought; "good grief, he's making us look bad..." Anyway, it was a phenomenon I'd never seen before in tech support. Likely because there is a lot of geek cred to opening a UNIX shell.

post #155 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post


You are a fanatic and don't know what you are talking about.  Your claim was that interacting with the web via a browser is superior to doing so on a full fledged PC.  It is not.  It simply is not possible to complete a tax return and submit the completed form from an iPad where I live.  Nor can you use important elements of many websites that use flash.

Thanks, but I think that I am a realist.
What I meant with superior is the handling of it.
Almost all of the online forms I have to fill in work great on the iPad, the exceptions I encounter do not work on the Mac either or have to do with HTML5 coding problems (a faulty website).
Flash is dead, and it's a blessing not being able to use it.
I ignore sites that support flash and that means they don't sell to me and according to the number of sites that suddenly comply to HTML5 I am not alone in that behavior.
iPad owners account for 80% of tablet web browsing and that represents a huge selling opportunity to people that actually want to buy and have the means to do it.
So, nowadays I hardly encounter a site that doesn't work.
Hence superior browsing.
post #156 of 181

QuickOffice and Drive

post #157 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
 


What word processing program is available on Androids?

 

 

QuickOffice and Drive

post #158 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthW View Post

It's obviously HP & MS fault.

Not really. It's the clueless individuals that concluded, after 18 months of evaluation, that hp and ms were the best solution.
post #159 of 181
Originally Posted by Emes View Post
This is just asking for people to troll MS

 

Maybe they shouldn’t fail so much, then.

post #160 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Maybe they shouldn’t fail so much, then.

Or maybe you should control yourselves and stick to one topic

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