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Irish school's attempt to replace books with HP tablets results in 'unmitigated disaster' - Page 3

post #81 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

Thanks Mel. I just clicked and saved the links to read later today. I enjoy articles like this. 1smile.gif

By the way, just as an aside, to show a major problem with WebOS, we can see in the short InformationWeek article that Mercer, an original architect of WebOS, comments that WebOS was to blame for the failure, as does the article itself. But you'll see that in the second, far more complete article, that it was Mercer's crap that forced them to go to WebKit in the first place. More than a bit of infighting there!
post #82 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthW View Post

That seems really expensive, $741? Isn't an iPad cheaper? Can't see how this school board went with such an expensive, unproven tablet. iPad is cheaper and proven in education. Doesn't say much for the school board. And how can they not blame anyone? It's obviously HP & MS fault.

 

Typically, at least in the US, school boards don't determine what gets purchased. Its not necessarily up to the school board to determine what device is best for the district. This should be something the Superintendent, Principals, and IT Director determine. This is the difference between a business and a school district. You don't have to go to the school board to get every thing approved before purchasing. At least, this is how things work in the region I work around. For example, if my school wanted to replace one of the Mac labs with new iMacs, we don't go to the school board and pitch an idea with the hopes they say yes. The Technology Director determines whether or not it gets replaced and has the money in their computer budget to do so. Then it goes from there to the building principal who gives it an okay, and from there it goes to the business manager to then gives it the final okay and approves the PO (Purchase Order) agreement. 

 

Now a school board may or may not have some say in the project itself of whether or not to do it, but they typically don't get involved in what devices, software, etc, etc are purchased as part of the project. They leave that up to the professionals hired in the district to make those decisions.  

post #83 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

No.

Actually, he was right, and you are wrong. You read like a typical person who has never used any tablet, much less an iPad. I can assure you that they can be, and are, used for far more complex work that you seem to be aware that they can do. Or want to believe that they can do.
post #84 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


While it's the mfgt responsibility to deliver a working product, I'd blame the schools' IT guys. They should've tested this thoroughly, which obviously wasn't the case.


Well you can't be sure. The IT guys might have been given test models with different quality than the "roll out models". Or when they rolled it out, they tested with installed software, and in production they were "distributing" software. So my guess they were promised by an HP salesman that their "distribution was just as good as iTunes for a local intranet installing apps."

 

In reality, there was no way they weren't going to be the guinea pigs, as probably nobody else in their country has tried HP tablets as a platform. So it could even have been messed up by installing a Finnish instead of an English language pack.

 

Why would a language pack cause a tablet to go to sleep and never wake up? I don't know, because I don't use a Win 8 / HP tablet and I probably never will.

post #85 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by pojekboy View Post

Why didn't they just get Surface RT tablets? It's ARM so you have none of the cruft of the x86 version and it comes with Office as part of the package.

I can see the advertisement now.

post #86 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

Perfect candidate for 64GB iPad2 $699

When will these fools learn?  Saving a few bucks buying Android/MS stuff is just not worth it.

Fools? How does one purchased a iPad for $699 in Ireland
post #87 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post


Yes, there is one advantage of web browsing on an iPad than on a PC that every body should know:  if you encounter a word that you have not learned you can easily get its definition by touching it longer.  I am thrilled by this feature. 

The same feature exists in Windows 8, you can even add a broader definition search by adding sites like Wikipedia to the function. Windows 8 isn't such a bad OS for education, the amount of software available for Windows is quite vast. I know the iPad has a lot as well, just saying that the opinion of Windows 8 not being up for for this task is just biased crap.
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post #88 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank View Post
 

"refusing to power on, going to sleep unexpectedly, and experiencing hardware failures involving the devices' logic boards"   sounds like a h/w and potentially a s/w issue.  And they aren't blaming anyone?  Really?   If had bought a bunch of tablets or computers and they won't turn on, go to sleep unexpectedly and have logic boards fail, I can think of at least one or two companies to blame.

 

Now, if the students aren't plugging the devices in to charge the battery, i can understand why they might not power on or go do sleep due to lack of enough battery power, but logic boards failing?

 

And these are HP?  I would expect this happening on the lower end cheaper products on the market, but I always thought HP was to have at least decent products from a standpoint of at least turning on and working reliably.

 

Oh well.

 

The tablet market is a totally different beast. A lot of these "just as good as iPad" Android-based and Win based tablets just aren't up to snuff. To get the specs right, they either run too hot or the batter starts fading in a few months so that the 6 hour run-time gets significantly shortened. The iPad took a lot of research and is an engineering marvel. The Android and Win tablets on the other hand are being produced by mass-market manufacturers trying to fulfill a laundry list of "features" and specs such as RAM or CPU speed, without regard to reality. It's really a tough situation to be in and I'm betting there isn't a lot of room for R&D after Google or Microsoft helps create the reference devices and software.

 

So Apple is 94% of the market and the other 6% have buyers remorse. That just happens to be the unavoidable conclusion in 2013. It might change -- and COMPETITION IS GOOD! But unless someone has deep pockets to design better OS, better backend, and a better tablet -- buying anything non-Apple for this platform is a mistake.

post #89 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

As a person who works in two K-12 school districts as a technician, and runs the entire Apple Department in one of them, I'm confused by their choice of tablet. I do agree with some. Its like the districts IT department and/or administration staff wanted to keep it all Windows based and felt like the HP tablet was the best offer for the price paid and stay in a Windows environment. 

In my experience, you really need to test things out way in advance of doing something of this scale, even if you have to push the rollout date back. When you're spending $1.4 Million (2000 students x $700), you better damn well make sure you have your ducks in a row before placing any formal order. This means not only testing hardware, but also software to manage these devices. So get different hardware vendors involved (Apple, HP, Microsoft, Samsung, etc), then get different MDM solutions involved and see what works best. Not, whats more convenient for IT, what works best in the environment its placed in. Too many times, IT people are lazy bastards and always do what is best for them, and creates less work for them. I say this as an IT person myself. 

That being said, like Melgross said, education is different from everyday life in an IT world, even business life to some extent. You buy things based on what works for your curriculum for the price. Some people don't understand how things in Education work and they try to compare it to the business they supported, or home use, etc. They don't see how things have to work behind the scenes. Sometimes things are purchased based on grants that have specific directions of what to buy, how many, and what you can pay for it. Its not always what runs MS Office best or something like that. These days, virtually anything can do this using one program or another either on the device itself, or cloud based. Thats not what important. Whats most important is, does it consistently and appropriately serve the purpose of the curriculum it was meant for? This is not a one sized fits all thing either. What works for one district doesn't mean its always going to work for any other district. Different districts have different needs, different student body types, different budgets, and different curriculums. 

It's interesting too that in the USA and Canada, at least, 95% of the tablets in education are iPads. This leads to the old Windows is Best concept, because there is one OS, and better, with just a few different devices to program to.

I'm now seeing Microsoft Tv Ads that have this guy who's pretending to be a teacher, lauding Windows Pro tablets for his students. I'd be very surprised if there were more than a handful of students using that machine anywhere. There's no educational software available for it. And for those who don't know better, software that qualifies for a classic laptop or tower won't qualify for student use on a small tablet screen. And boy, are they going to lose those styluses and keyboard covers!
post #90 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post

Correct!

The largest PC manufacturer in the world and what do they make? Crappy tablets! The largest software company in the world and what do they make? Crappy software!

And they wonder why they had problems! Ugh! 1smile.gif

Why are you bringing Leveno into this discussion?
post #91 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Fools? How does one purchased a iPad for $699 in Ireland
A lot of people don't realize how much more we pay for stuff in Europe, it's almost worth just flying to New York for a day to do your yearly clothing and gadget shopping and of course visit a decent Sushi restraunt.
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post #92 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


It's interesting too that in the USA and Canada, at least, 95% of the tablets in education are iPads. This leads to the old Windows is Best concept, because there is one OS, and better, with just a few different devices to program to.

I'm now seeing Microsoft Tv Ads that have this guy who's pretending to be a teacher, lauding Windows Pro tablets for his students. I'd be very surprised if there were more than a handful of students using that machine anywhere. There's no educational software available for it. And for those who don't know better, software that qualifies for a classic laptop or tower won't qualify for student use on a small tablet screen. And boy, are they going to lose those styluses and keyboard covers!

 

Yeah and the fact that the Surface Tablet isn't any cheaper, and in some cases, its MORE expensive than an iPad which has hundreds of thousands of apps. Just because the Surface Tablet runs Windows, doesn't mean its great for educational use with any Windows Education app. As Microsoft are finding out the hard way, people don't want to use desktop apps on a tablet because it runs like crap and its just not a good user experience. 

 

Buying a Windows based tablet just to stay on a Windows platform is just plain silly. 

post #93 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

A lot of people don't realize how much more we pay for stuff in Europe, it's almost worth just flying to New York for a day to do your yearly clothing and gadget shopping and of course visit a decent Sushi restraunt.

It's funny, on this site, when you say that Apple over charges for stuff outside the US there is every excuse in the book to explain why, but now they are happy to use it to say these paid too much compared to the US price, which excuse it is?
post #94 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

Yeah and the fact that the Surface Tablet isn't any cheaper, and in some cases, its MORE expensive than an iPad which has hundreds of thousands of apps. Just because the Surface Tablet runs Windows, doesn't mean its great for educational use with any Windows Education app. As Microsoft are finding out the hard way, people don't want to use desktop apps on a tablet because it runs like crap and its just not a good user experience. 

Buying a Windows based tablet just to stay on a Windows platform is just plain silly. 

Huh, I use and enjoy many desktop apps on my Win8 tablet. Must have a special one or you've never used one, I think the latter.
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post #95 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post


Well you can't be sure. The IT guys might have been given test models with different quality than the "roll out models". Or when they rolled it out, they tested with installed software, and in production they were "distributing" software. So my guess they were promised by an HP salesman that their "distribution was just as good as iTunes for a local intranet installing apps."

In reality, there was no way they weren't going to be the guinea pigs, as probably nobody else in their country has tried HP tablets as a platform. So it could even have been messed up by installing a Finnish instead of an English language pack.

Why would a language pack cause a tablet to go to sleep and never wake up? I don't know, because I don't use a Win 8 / HP tablet and I probably never will.

Well, I'll tell you something. There's a big difference between giving something out for use with adults, or children, or even school age young adults, and high school or lower grade students. Students are the most difficult group of people to let use a product that has any chance of breaking in any way whatsoever!

There is a law in physics that states: If something is possible, it WILL happen. Same thing with students and anything at all. If it can go wrong, in any way, it will.

I know of cases where a students iPad ceased working. When asked about what they had done with it that was unusual, it was said that "well, maybe I left it on under my pillow when I went to bed—every night for a month, with a game that controlled the screen so that it never went off!

That isn't even the oddest thing that's happened.
post #96 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

The same feature exists in Windows 8, you can even add a broader definition search by adding sites like Wikipedia to the function. Windows 8 isn't such a bad OS for education, the amount of software available for Windows is quite vast. I know the iPad has a lot as well, just saying that the opinion of Windows 8 not being up for for this task is just biased crap.

But that software isn't qualified for use in a tablet with a small screen, a stylus, and the not so hot typing covers. All that software needs to be requalified for that use, which means extensive rewriting of the UI.
post #97 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


Fools? How does one purchased a iPad for $699 in Ireland

 

I'm not sure how a fool does this but I googled; "buy iPad in Ireland" and got;

http://www.vikingdirect.ie/a/pb/Apple-iPad-mini-64GB-WiFi-Black-Slate/pr=QDN&id=6387489/;jsessionid=000020bI9veOK8Ylt_0AsIUrMOz:130mf1637

 

It was €438.00 -- you can get it for less or more depending on specs. Not sure what  that translates to in $. Could be $50,000 with the exchange rate. /s

 

Ireland is one of the major places they assemble Apple devices for Europe -- or at least on paper for tax purposes ;-)

post #98 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

It's funny, on this site, when you say that Apple over charges for stuff outside the US there is every excuse in the book to explain why, but now they are happy to use it to say these paid too much compared to the US price, which excuse it is?

Never said they overcharge, just that it's cheaper to buy them In the US. Personally, I actually think all these gadgets are cheap, I used to pay 3000 dollars for a Sony Picturebook and that was before I was making real money. I'm not really sure what your trying to prove.
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post #99 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


But that software isn't qualified for use in a tablet with a small screen, a stylus, and the not so hot typing covers. All that software needs to be requalified for that use, which means extensive rewriting of the UI.

 

That person was also mentioning "there's a lot of software for Windows." Right, but is that Windows RT, Win 8, Win 7, Win Mobile, WebOS, and does it allow for FINGERS once you click on some happy icon in that Metro interface designed for the XBox?

 

And I'm sure that Win 8 has a dictionary search, but someone has to have a working model to verify this. ;-)

post #100 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


Well, I'll tell you something. There's a big difference between giving something out for use with adults, or children, or even school age young adults, and high school or lower grade students. Students are the most difficult group of people to let use a product that has any chance of breaking in any way whatsoever!

There is a law in physics that states: If something is possible, it WILL happen. Same thing with students and anything at all. If it can go wrong, in any way, it will.

I know of cases where a students iPad ceased working. When asked about what they had done with it that was unusual, it was said that "well, maybe I left it on under my pillow when I went to bed—every night for a month, with a game that controlled the screen so that it never went off!

That isn't even the oddest thing that's happened.

 

I worked in a computer lab at a University once, and I passed by a lady who's baby was in at the next computer to her, feeding the Floppy Port a cookie because it seemed hungry.

 

And people thought Jobs was foolish for not adding a keyboard to the iPad. Heck -- it's in hospitals and schools for the very reason it IS NOT JUST LIKE A regular computer. The Fins need to learn that they don't want an all purpose device.

post #101 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


It's funny, on this site, when you say that Apple over charges for stuff outside the US there is every excuse in the book to explain why, but now they are happy to use it to say these paid too much compared to the US price, which excuse it is?

 

I'm sure there is pricey stuff out there. But at least Europeans don't have to panic to pay for school, healthcare and retirement like we do.

 

And you are for sure paying less than the poor Australians with all the kapitalists marking up every import!

post #102 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post
 

 

I'm sure there is pricey stuff out there. But at least Europeans don't have to panic to pay for school, healthcare and retirement like we do.

 

And you are for sure paying less than the poor Australians with all the kapitalists marking up every import!

 

The POINT I'm making here is that there is a significant import tax Europeans pay -- but they are better off because it means lower trade deficits and the government redistributes that money to TAKE CARE OF PEOPLE.  In the US you get a discount on everything, but you can't afford to eat.

post #103 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

But that software isn't qualified for use in a tablet with a small screen, a stylus, and the not so hot typing covers. All that software needs to be requalified for that use, which means extensive rewriting of the UI.

Really, I just upped the UI to 110% and they work just fine. I have yet to use a desktop app that wasn't useable. Not sure what people are complaining about, I do have small fingers though.
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post #104 of 181
Just get an iPad. Morons.
post #105 of 181
Well, that's where HP went wrong. They included logic boards in their tablets. iPad innards include only a battery, a display, a speaker, and something Apple's detractors refer to as a reality distortion field. Whatever is in there, those iPads work perfectly every time. LOL!
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I have enough money to last the rest of my life. Unless I buy something. - Jackie Mason
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post #106 of 181
I feel sorry for the kids. It just goes to show how stubborn IT departments can be. This is the old 'iPads are not for productivity argument because they don't have MS Word.' If you are a student what is wrong with Pages ? or any other word processing App made for iPad ?!?
Anyone in education is speaking iPad because iPad has the apps and the tools that educators require. It has an established an education ecosystem, so going with any other brand would just be counterintuitive.
Hardware issues are not specific to the HP W8 Tablets either. My workplace has Acer Iconias and they need to be switched on and off to enable a transition between Wifi and 3G. The IT department thinks they are great because they are NOT APPLE. When will these people get with what the USERS want. There will be a day when we don't need IT departments, so better hurry up and do what we want or we will make you all redundant !
post #107 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoonerYoda View Post

"We're not blaming anyone" for the failures, Gleeson said.

Yeah, you should. Blame HP and MS. In addition, blame the dumbasses who thought it would have been a good idea in the first place.
I am sure he is the post-dumbass who approved it.
post #108 of 181

The Polaris Office suite. It very good. However I am an Apple fan and prefer Pages :)

post #109 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

Perfect candidate for 64GB iPad2 $699

When will these fools learn?  Saving a few bucks buying Android/MS stuff is just not worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthW View Post

That seems really expensive, $741? Isn't an iPad cheaper? Can't see how this school board went with such an expensive, unproven tablet. iPad is cheaper and proven in education. Doesn't say much for the school board. And how can they not blame anyone? It's obviously HP & MS fault.
Sounds like they didn't even negotiated for a pool buy, instead bought them individually, perhaps they know if the oarents go to return it themselves, the generate foot traffic, pollute the air with added trips, I wont trust to send my kids to be educated in that dumb country. Afterall, dont they have a Noble Sir in charge of education?
post #110 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post


The same feature exists in Windows 8, you can even add a broader definition search by adding sites like Wikipedia to the function. Windows 8 isn't such a bad OS for education, the amount of software available for Windows is quite vast. I know the iPad has a lot as well, just saying that the opinion of Windows 8 not being up for for this task is just biased crap.


This feature exists since the beginning of iOS.  I think MS has a lot of time to copy it to Windows 8. 

post #111 of 181

Good point jfc1138,  

 

I loved Wordperfect, because it worked with a mouse.  I cut my teeth on WordProcessors with "WordStar"  that was a big full featured DOS WordProcessor.  I could not imagine something knocking out WordStar, then WP came along and blue it out of the water, then along came Word and killed WP.  Something tells me that Word my not rule forever.  I even remember doing mail merges with Adobe PageMaker.

post #112 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


Actually, he was right, and you are wrong. You read like a typical person who has never used any tablet, much less an iPad. I can assure you that they can be, and are, used for far more complex work that you seem to be aware that they can do. Or want to believe that they can do.

 

Actually he was wrong, and - therefore - so are you.

 

A few weeks ago I had to complete an Irish Income tax return and upload the completed return via the  website.  This process can not be accomplished on an iPad.

post #113 of 181
At least it an unmitigated disaster.
post #114 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post

Yeah, sounded like an absolutely brilliant move, forcing Windows 8 tablets upon students- build by HP, no less. What could go wrong?

Delta airline pilots using the Surface as an electronic bag.
post #115 of 181

Would you send your kids to a school like this. It demonstrates that this school systems do not have the ability to analysis and critically think. They did not even bother to test these things ahead of time, they just believe what was being sold to them. I guess they are teaching the kids the same behaviors which is trust the sales guy.

post #116 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post

That person was also mentioning "there's a lot of software for Windows." Right, but is that Windows RT, Win 8, Win 7, Win Mobile, WebOS, and does it allow for FINGERS once you click on some happy icon in that Metro interface designed for the XBox?

And I'm sure that Win 8 has a dictionary search, but someone has to have a working model to verify this. ;-)

As far as I know, there's little, if no professional education software for RT. The software that is available for Windows is qualified for "computers". That is a device with a full size keyboard, a mouse or trackball, and a trackpad. It's not qualified for a small screen that uses a stylus as a required part of using software. For education, all of this will need to be re-qualified.

Student use is different from business, or home, use. No one want students to squint at a screen while trying to poke at an answer on a small screen that consists of a box or circle an eighth of an inch across. The UI will have to be completely redone. For RT, the entire software package will need to be rewritten from the ground up.

And what's the point of that unless there is a minimum amount of guaranteed sales? Microsoft tried to sell RT to education by dropping the price to $199 a tablet. But a couple of months after that we got the 640,000 iPad sale to Los Angeles. So that didn't work.
post #117 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post

I'm sure there is pricey stuff out there. But at least Europeans don't have to panic to pay for school, healthcare and retirement like we do.

And you are for sure paying less than the poor Australians with all the kapitalists marking up every import!

Actually, their taxes are so much higher in every way, that they are paying for all of that—through the nose! Most tax rates in the EU begin at around 30% for working people, and the VAT is 20%. 21% in the UK.
post #118 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake_William_Shatner View Post

I'm not sure how a fool does this but I googled; "buy iPad in Ireland" and got;
http://www.vikingdirect.ie/a/pb/Apple-iPad-mini-64GB-WiFi-Black-Slate/pr=QDN&id=6387489/;jsessionid=000020bI9veOK8Ylt_0AsIUrMOz:130mf1637

It was €438.00 -- you can get it for less or more depending on specs. Not sure what  that translates to in $. Could be $50,000 with the exchange rate. /s

Ireland is one of the major places they assemble Apple devices for Europe -- or at least on paper for tax purposes ;-)

Excluding VAT, 538 including, and if the parents are paying, they will be paying VAT

And the iPad is assembed in China
post #119 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Really, I just upped the UI to 110% and they work just fine. I have yet to use a desktop app that wasn't useable. Not sure what people are complaining about, I do have small fingers though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic View Post

Really, I just upped the UI to 110% and they work just fine. I have yet to use a desktop app that wasn't useable. Not sure what people are complaining about, I do have small fingers though.

You isn't understand. We're talking about students. It doesn't work that way with students. Everything must be the same. If they are using it in the 12th grade, it will be set up the same way as those using it in the 4th grade. That's just the way it is. They're not going to have a number of configurations, just one. And anything that will be more complex, in any way, won't be used.

You really don't understand what a locked down environment education is. And if the students can alter it, they will. And not usually in the good way. Windows was simply not designed to be used with a very small screen, with a stylus. Anyone trying to find excuses as to how wonderful it is, is simply not admitting to themselves that it's a total mess.

We never could use the convertibles with their 13-15" screens, because they were too small. They needed special software that just allows you to poke at a box with the stylus, and sign you name with it at the bottom. These tablets are far worse. It's making the best of a bad thing, when you magnify the screen. Besides, Microsoft already does that for you. It's standard on the Pro, so if you're going even further, that just makes the situation worse.
post #120 of 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Actually he was wrong, and - therefore - so are you.

A few weeks ago I had to complete an Irish Income tax return and upload the completed return via the  website.  This process can not be accomplished on an iPad.

So, maybe you're right about that one thing. But that's not software itself. Some places still require Windows. But you are wrong about everything else.
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