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Should the UK leave the EU?

Poll Results: Should the UK leave the EU?

Poll expired: Feb 1, 2014  
  • 61% (8)
    Yes
  • 38% (5)
    No
13 Total Votes  
post #1 of 109
Thread Starter 

Yes, it should, and America's future depends on it.

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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #2 of 109
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
Americas future depends on it.

 

Hmm. Whyzzat?

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post #3 of 109

They should but like most things lately, it is probably too far down the road to turn around and try to fix it now.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #4 of 109
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
like most things lately, it is probably too far down the road to turn around and try to fix it now.

 

I usually never like this thought. So what’s the implication here? Europe should be let to fall into lawlessness?

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post #5 of 109

Leaving the EU would be a disaster.  No one in England that you can take seriously is suggesting it.

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post #6 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post
like most things lately, it is probably too far down the road to turn around and try to fix it now.

 

I usually never like this thought. So what’s the implication here? Europe should be let to fall into lawlessness?

 

How would that be the implication? Is the rhetorical question you are suggesting really that one must join the EU or endorse anarchy?

 

People can endorse a bad solution and end up with a bad outcome. If you endorse the bad solution long enough, the outcome at some point can be irreversable in terms of consequences. That doesn't mean something new cannot arise out of that bad outcome. It just means that the bad outcome is a foregone conclusion after a certain point from the bad solution.

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post #7 of 109
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

If you endorse the bad solution long enough, the outcome at some point can be irreversable in terms of consequences. That doesn't mean something new cannot arise out of that bad outcome. It just means that the bad outcome is a foregone conclusion after a certain point from the bad solution.

 

So why bother trying to change anything? Just let it all run its course. :\


I’d rather fix things if I know they’re broken rather than let them stay broken and run someone off a cliff.

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post #8 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

If you endorse the bad solution long enough, the outcome at some point can be irreversable in terms of consequences. That doesn't mean something new cannot arise out of that bad outcome. It just means that the bad outcome is a foregone conclusion after a certain point from the bad solution.

 

So why bother trying to change anything? Just let it all run its course. :\


I’d rather fix things if I know they’re broken rather than let them stay broken and run someone off a cliff.

 

The point though is that you know and understand that they are broken. The people who don't realize that or perhaps are even gaining from the broken state don't care to fix it and will fight you on changes. At some point you choose the variables you can control and leave to others their own decisions. If that means they drive off a cliff, then they drive off because they were busy arguing about cliffs, gravity and what cars do off of them. Maybe you can't leave the car but you can at least make sure you seatbelt is on, brace for impact and hope you'll survive better than the people waving their hands in the air arguing that the car really isn't falling.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #9 of 109

I'm not sure where this idea that the UK is the only body keeping the rest of the EU from falling into anarchy is coming from.  The EU has some monetary issues but it's mostly politically stable, while the UK is non-committal to the former issues, and if anything disruptive on the latter stability.  Germany is the main force binding the EU together, not the UK, and the EU would do fine without the UK, but the UK would be in a major bind without the EU.  One need only look to what's going on in Scotland now to see this; Scotland wants independence from the UK, but is relying on entrance into the EU for its economic fortunes because it knows that without those links it'll die.  Unfortunately the assumption of easy entry may be the undoing of Scottish independence, because it looks like it won't be that simple.

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post #10 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
 

I'm not sure where this idea that the UK is the only body keeping the rest of the EU from falling into anarchy is coming from.  The EU has some monetary issues but it's mostly politically stable, while the UK is non-committal to the former issues, and if anything disruptive on the latter stability.  Germany is the main force binding the EU together, not the UK, and the EU would do fine without the UK, but the UK would be in a major bind without the EU.  One need only look to what's going on in Scotland now to see this; Scotland wants independence from the UK, but is relying on entrance into the EU for its economic fortunes because it knows that without those links it'll die.  Unfortunately the assumption of easy entry may be the undoing of Scottish independence, because it looks like it won't be that simple.

Everybody's jealous Scotland has been told it'll have to wait to join the EU. Now that's a triumph!

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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #11 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Hmm. Whyzzat?

Because another undemocratic, authoritarian, power hungry superpower in the world, is not in America's interests.

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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #12 of 109
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
Because another undemocratic, authoritarian, power hungry superpower in the world, is not in America's interests.

 

Oh, well, when you put it that way, I’m in complete agreement. Thing is, Airstrip One on its own is already basically as creepy as you get outside of fantasy, and it’s trending even further that way. I’ve even taken to calling the island ‘Airstrip One’, after all.

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post #13 of 109
Thread Starter 

Unfortunately, I'm not being paid for all my hard work here. :grumble: No, it's all done from the goodness of my heart. :)

 

"EU to set up euro-election 'troll patrol' to tackle Eurosceptic surge

 

The European Parliament is to spend almost £2 million on press monitoring and trawling Eurosceptic debates on the internet for "trolls" with whom to debate in the run-up and during euro-elections next year amid fears that hostility to the EU is growing.

 

The Daily Telegraph has seen confidential spending proposals and internal documents planning an unprecedented propaganda blitz ahead of and during European elections in June 2014.

 

"Parliament's institutional communicators must have the ability to monitor public conversation and sentiment on the ground and in real time, to understand 'trending topics' and have the capacity to react quickly, in a targeted and relevant manner, to join in and influence the conversation, for example, by providing facts and figures to deconstructing myths."

 

Training for parliament officials begins later this month.

 

Paul Nuttall, UKIP's deputy leader, has attacked the proposals, which he said, violate the neutrality of the EU civil service by turning officials into a "troll patrol", stalking the internet to make unwanted and provocative political contributions in social media debates.

"Spending over a million pounds for EU public servants to become Twitter trolls in office hours is wasteful and truly ridiculous," he said.

"It strikes me as bizarre that the EU administration is playing such an explicitly political role with a brief to target Eurosceptics - that's code for parties like Ukip, and this is hardly neutral."

A confidential document discussed by officials last week appears to acknowledge problems by admitting that "there are fine lines separating institutional and political communication".

Parliament officials declined to comment on the confidential documents and ongoing private discussions within the EU assembly's administration."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9845442/EU-to-set-up-euro-election-troll-patrol-to-tackle-Eurosceptic-surge.html

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post #14 of 109
Don't see anything wrong with that. Finding and fighting potential damaging misinformation seems perfectly valid, and it's a tiny budget.

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post #15 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Don't see anything wrong with that. Finding and fighting potential damaging misinformation seems perfectly valid, and it's a tiny budget.

 

Yes because if it isn't want the government wants, then clearly it is misinformation by default.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #16 of 109
No one said that.

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post #17 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

No one said that.

 

The government is spendingt money fighting the generation population's viewpoint on a certain matter. You said the government spending money against those they are supposed to help is fine because it is "misinformation." Being a skeptic isn't misinformation. It means they don't buy the government views.

 

This isn't like prosecuting a crime or preventing a health hazzard. The government should not be preventing common folk from expressing their viewpoints by taking their money and spending it against them.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #18 of 109
No, you've extrapolated. The EU Parliament has set aside a small budget to use to interject some reality into political debates that are often fuelled by misinformation. Lack of understanding of truths by the public is fuel to a lot of fire, particularly (but not solely) when it comes to Europe in some areas.

Some information about how far public perceptions are off on some issues: http://www.reasonandreality.org/?p=2887.

A bit of positive reinforcement of facts to fight a corner is a good thing. You're painting it as a conspiracy, which it definitely isn't. The fact that the story relies on a quote from UKIP, one of the most shamelessly misleading and vehemently anti-Europe parties in the UK, is telling.

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post #19 of 109
Thread Starter 

A great quote from the Telegraph article's comments section-

 

"We have this sort of thing in Ireland were anti eu voices are censored  from the mainstream media , you will find them only in online blogs which we see are now being targeted by the EU , the whole thing is very Reichish

our Politicians are running around like rabbits trying to please the EU chiefs , they are so disconnected from the rest of society, its crazy .

the european movement in Ireland recently held a so called open forum to get peoples views on the EU , the only problem was that you had to make an application to them and be vetted to take part."

 

The EU is run by less than thirty commissioners who have near complete control over EU laws. They need not to have ever been elected to any political office, and they often haven't been either.

 

They are sly as hell and their agenda is to have control over every aspect of the lives of EU citizens. They no doubt would love to expand to include Northern Africa, the Middle East and Russia.

 

They will destroy Europe in order to run it. People who don't want to be in the EU, like myself, like Europe, at least the parts I've been to, and enjoy the different cultures around it. That will be eroded even further as the EU drags us all into a melting pot. A USE (United States of Europe) is the death of Europe. 

 

For anyone who doesn't know, the UK has three dominant political parties. Each one supports remaining in the EU (except for some, generally silenced, Conservative back-benchers). You can imagine how much time the people here get to hear a balanced discussion on Europe. Not very often! The only party that speaks up about how important it is to get out of the EU, is UKIP. UKIP have no seats in parliament, but are rapidly gaining voters.

 

The Conservatives plan on a referendum in 2017 if they are re-elected in 2015. So long as they get it through the lower house, it will be pushed through the Lords, so it can't be prevented at that stage. Cameron calls this the nuclear option. 

 

UKIP voters need to vote Conservative in 2015, despite their grievances, because otherwise we won't get the referendum, and without that we'll never get out without a revolution.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 12/19/13 at 4:01pm
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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #20 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

No, you've extrapolated. The EU Parliament has set aside a small budget to use to interject some reality into political debates that are often fuelled by misinformation. Lack of understanding of truths by the public is fuel to a lot of fire, particularly (but not solely) when it comes to Europe in some areas.

Some information about how far public perceptions are off on some issues: http://www.reasonandreality.org/?p=2887.

A bit of positive reinforcement of facts to fight a corner is a good thing. You're painting it as a conspiracy, which it definitely isn't. The fact that the story relies on a quote from UKIP, one of the most shamelessly misleading and vehemently anti-Europe parties in the UK, is telling.

 

I understand your rationals but the point is that attaching a bunch of labels still makes it wrong.

 

If the public elects you when they are misinformed, disconnected from reality and lacking in understanding, then right or wrong, they want you to act on what they voted.

 

It is not appropriate to get into office or use public funds while in office to work against public interest declaring that said interest is labeled misinformed, etc.

 

All the actinos here are justified by labels. It can be done because they are anti-Europe, misinformed, disconnected, etc.

 

The labels don't justify the actions.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #21 of 109
I disagree on multiple points, but am not interested enough to argue further.

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post #22 of 109
Thread Starter 

mihowilovetyrants14u8

 

Hey guys did you all know that the EU has saved more lives in africa than hiter killed jews?

 

And the EU is democratic- 12 out of 7 voters agree.That's a government fact.

 

BS.

 

// Tyranny ended-

 

The eu has never had a minority commissioner.

 

the eu wants to expand...can't be bothered listing all the countries, but read it and weep eu losers-

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7095657.stm

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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #23 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
 

.. the EU would do fine without the UK, but the UK would be in a major bind without the EU. 

 

 

Quote Hands- I can't get the quote system to work - so... again, read it and weep the eu downgraded because Britons despise the eu....it's a bit more complex, but fundamentally the uk won't be ransacked by any eu power, in fact the uk will fight harder and stronger until the eu is dead~  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10530030/Britains-euroscepticism-is-a-major-factor-in-EUs-loss-of-triple-A-rating-says-SandP.html

 

"Britain's euroscepticism is a major factor in EU's loss of triple-A rating, says S&P"

 

We stand with the US, we stand for europe's freedom. We will win.

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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #24 of 109
The US and the UK stand for freedom? Are you just saying that because you know they're monitoring what you're saying?

I'm not going to argue without someone who expresses glee over a debt rating downgrade. There just isn't any point.

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post #25 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

I disagree on multiple points, but am not interested enough to argue further.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

The US and the UK stand for freedom? Are you just saying that because you know they're monitoring what you're saying?

I'm not going to argue without someone who expresses glee over a debt rating downgrade. There just isn't any point.

 

Posting to say you aren't going to post is ridiculous. Either engage your fellow forum members or don't post saying you disagree but some failing of another member means you won't reply to the points you want to make.

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post #26 of 109
Posting to dictate how another person should post is also rather ridiculous.

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post #27 of 109

Leaving the EU would be disastrous for the UK economy and for British citizens. We're the third largest exporter of workers in the EU and half of our exports go to EU countries. 

 

The EU certainly isn't perfect but the UK can share the blame in that. For too long, we've stood on the sidelines like a stroppy teenager; unwilling to lead but moaning every time that a decision is made. If the UK dropped its elitist attitude and worked in partnership with the other countries, we might just make the EU a better organisation.

 

I really don't understand the 'it's broken, let's discard it' argument. Only parts of it are broken. Wouldn't it be better, cheaper and easier to just fix those broken parts?

post #28 of 109

[Sarcasm]

Yes, they should.

They don't deserve to be in the EU.

They try to dominate all aspects of the EU, yet they are slavishly following the US as far as international policy is concerned. They are not very willing contributors to the EU finances.

Let them go back to nondecimal currency en nonmetric units.

Let them join the US instead. ...Aw, no, they may have to switch driving to the right.

BTW, they will continue to speak funny, as can be observed from Brits who have lived abroad for most of their adult life.

[/Sarcasm]

However, they may not, because, as is the case with Scandinavian countries, they have come to depend a great deal on the EU economy, not in the least in terms of standardisation issues. In practice, they are more part of the EU than they tend to believe themselves.

post #29 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

I'm not going to argue with someone who expresses wisdom over a debt rating downgrade. There just isn't any point.

 

tftfy

Edited by Hands Sandon - 12/26/13 at 4:42pm
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post #30 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post
 

Leaving the EU would be disastrous for the UK economy and for British citizens. We're the third largest exporter of workers in the EU and half of our exports go to EU countries. 

 

The EU certainly isn't perfect but the UK can share the blame in that. For too long, we've stood on the sidelines like a stroppy teenager; unwilling to lead but moaning every time that a decision is made. If the UK dropped its elitist attitude and worked in partnership with the other countries, we might just make the EU a better organisation.

 

I really don't understand the 'it's broken, let's discard it' argument. Only parts of it are broken. Wouldn't it be better, cheaper and easier to just fix those broken parts?

We're not going to stop trading with the EU if we leave it. I guess it depends on whether you value sovereignty and diversity, whether you want to stay in the EU or not. The UK rejected the Euro, despite being told how we'd suffer if we didn't join it by the likes of Sir Richard Branson, and now the UK is Europe's fastest growing economy and is predicted to overtake Germany and France as the biggest European economy by 2030. 

 

Britain needs to trade, co-operate and help shape Europe, but it will do that far more effectively outside of the EU. Trade with the EU is important, but our biggest growth is with India, China and the US, respectively. 

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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #31 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanFruniken View Post
 

[Sarcasm]

Yes, they should.

They don't deserve to be in the EU.

They try to dominate all aspects of the EU, yet they are slavishly following the US as far as international policy is concerned. They are not very willing contributors to the EU finances.

Let them go back to nondecimal currency en nonmetric units.

Let them join the US instead. ...Aw, no, they may have to switch driving to the right.

BTW, they will continue to speak funny, as can be observed from Brits who have lived abroad for most of their adult life.

[/Sarcasm]

However, they may not, because, as is the case with Scandinavian countries, they have come to depend a great deal on the EU economy, not in the least in terms of standardisation issues. In practice, they are more part of the EU than they tend to believe themselves.

We can adapt outside the EU to whatever standardisation EU exports require. The UK imports far more from the EU than it exports. It's wider than it's ever been in fact, over £7 billion a month more in imports. Therefore the EU is relying heavily on the UK for trade, and those exports for the rest of the EU are a vital part of getting down the EU countries massive borrowing. 

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post #32 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

We're not going to stop trading with the EU if we leave it. I guess it depends on whether you value sovereignty and diversity, whether you want to stay in the EU or not. The UK rejected the Euro, despite being told how we'd suffer if we didn't join it by the likes of Sir Richard Branson, and now the UK is Europe's fastest growing economy and is predicted to overtake Germany and France as the biggest European economy by 2030. 

 

The CEBR report's prediction is based on a number of factors, the largest of which is population. Germany's population is predicted to decline whereas the UK population is rise due to immigration from the rest of the EU.

 

If the UK leaves the EU, the UK's population will not rise (and would most likely even fall). Thus, the UK will not overtake France and Germany. 

post #33 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post
 

 

The CEBR report's prediction is based on a number of factors, the largest of which is population. Germany's population is predicted to decline whereas the UK population is rise due to immigration from the rest of the EU.

 

If the UK leaves the EU, the UK's population will not rise (and would most likely even fall). Thus, the UK will not overtake France and Germany. 

Yes, immigration is a big factor, and they want to come here because the UK is doing so well. They'll want to come here even more if we leave the EU because we'll do even better. What matters really though isn't the size of the GDP but the quality of life and per capita GDP. Immigration is good, but too much isn't. There are other factors too-

 

"A rising population, a low-tax regime and insulation from the worst of the eurozone's problems leave Britain on course to overtake Germany as Europe's biggest economy within the next two decades, according to a study released on Thursday.

 

"Positive demographics with continuing immigration, rather less exposure to the problems of the eurozone ... combine with relatively low taxes to encourage faster growth than in most western economies," the CEBR said in its annual Economic League Table report.

Douglas McWilliams, the CEBR's chief executive, said Britain could become even stronger outside the European Union, even though an exit would be "very painful" in the short term."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/globalbusiness/10537274/Britain-on-course-to-become-strong-man-of-Europe.html

 

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post #34 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

Yes, immigration is a big factor, and they want to come here because the UK is doing so well.

 

:???: The UK economy is doing significantly worse than several other EU nations (e.g. Germany). Standards of living are falling in the UK. Standards of living are only falling faster in Greece, Portugal and the Netherlands.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

They'll want to come here even more if we leave the EU because we'll do even better. 

 

Perhaps, but they won't be able to come to the UK because there will no longer be freedom of movement between the UK and the continent. Leaving the EU would result in significantly less immigration to the UK and would put the UK in the same position as Germany - a decreasing population.

post #35 of 109
Thread Starter 

Like that article states, by reducing expenditure on wages, having the flexibility to do so, which the UK does more than many other EU countries, saves jobs because the business stays up and running. Its more competitive than it would have otherwise been. The UK is now Europe's fastest growing economy, partly because wages were lowered and the businesses are still in business. Now things are getting better, wages are expected to rise again, and they'll rise quicker here than in other countries because there's more wealth in those businesses to pay more, because there doing that much better than other EU countries.

 

"After five years when real wages have been static or falling, new research from the Federation of Small Businesses (FSB) shows that half of all smaller companies are now planning to increase salaries over the next 12 months or have done so over the past year.

Some increases could be as high as 10pc, well above the rate of inflation. Small businesses account for the vast bulk of all employment in the UK and are often seen as a bellwether for the strength of the wider economy.

“We can only move away from falling wages with a return to sustainable growth. So the focus must be on doing all we can to create jobs and support the infant recovery. Our flexible labour market has saved jobs and we should not wish it away.”

 

John Allan, national chairman for the FSB, said: “With confidence returning to small businesses after a period of wage restraint, our research shows our members are looking to pass on any extra profits to their staff, including those on low pay.”

The FSB warned that even with the economic recovery becoming stronger, very small companies in some sectors still face rising business rates and utility bills, meaning that not all firms are able to increase salaries."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10325894/Economic-boost-as-wages-rise-for-first-time-since-recession.html

 

Immigration would far from end being outside the EU, it would just be up to us how many we actually allowed, and prevented, to enter. It is more likely that immigration would be higher outside of the EU because we'd do much better economically. Whilst governments here would like that, in part to pay down the debt and keep a good debt rating, there have to be limits for the UK not to destroy its historic roots, including its countryside. The tide is in favour of sustainable immigration, as opposed to Labours "open gates" policy.  

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post #36 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Immigration would far from end being outside the EU, it would just be up to us how many we actually allowed, and prevented, to enter. It is more likely that immigration would be higher outside of the EU because we'd do much better economically. Whilst governments here would like that, in part to pay down the debt and keep a good debt rating, there have to be limits for the UK not to destroy its historic roots, including its countryside. The tide is in favour of sustainable immigration, as opposed to Labours "open gates" policy.  



Immigration would most likely be higher by leaving the EU? That's a complete delusion. Judging by what's happening in boom economies like Australia, that's not going to happen. Australia's government is very anti-immigration.

Why you would want to make it harder for all of these educated, motivated Europeans from entering the country is beyond me.
post #37 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

Immigration would most likely be higher by leaving the EU? That's a complete delusion. Judging by what's happening in boom economies like Australia, that's not going to happen. Australia's government is very anti-immigration.

Why you would want to make it harder for all of these educated, motivated Europeans from entering the country is beyond me.

UKIP have no MP's yet at all, so it'll take time for them to build up in parliament enough votes to enact any dramatic cuts in immigrants. The Tories want immigration. David Cameron wants Turkey to join the EU, he's pushed more for it than any other EU leader, and I'm sure given the currently low GDP per capita there, that a lot would see the UK as an attractive destination. The Tories are limiting benefits to immigrants and their families, but overall they want more immigration, more, as a percentage, of your favourites though; the well educated. Labour certainly wants immigration and the LibDems want lots of immigration and if you complain the rivers will flow with blood. So really, all three parties will push for more immigration, whether we are in or out of the EU. We would allow in whoever we wanted on whatever basis outside of the EU. The EU allows for the free movement of people, but I don't imagine too many people will be rushing East. The draw is opportunity and that opportunity will be greater if the UK is outside the EU. Australia must have reasons why they are limiting immigration, though the figures I looked at earlier show very high numbers of immigrants.

I guess we are are both speculating though to some extent, so we'll have to wait to see what happens.
Edited by Hands Sandon - 12/28/13 at 7:13pm
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post #38 of 109
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Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The EU allows for the free movement of people, but I don't imagine too many people will be rushing East.

 

The UK is the third largest exporter of workers in the EU. We benefit greatly from the freedom of movement rules.

post #39 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post
 

 

The UK is the third largest exporter of workers in the EU. We benefit greatly from the freedom of movement rules.

Yeah we benefit greatly by having 1.3 million, the largest in Europe, of our citizens head overseas, the vast number of whom have a university degree, whilst taking in mostly low skilled and poorly educated immigrants, far more than any other EU country. Mostly Brits end up outside of the EU, in places like China, Hong Kong, the ME, Canada, America and Australia. These people often have valuable skills and add greatly to the countries they go to. 

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post #40 of 109
Thread Starter 
"A campaign for the European Union to become a "United States of Europe" will be the "best weapon against the Eurosceptics", one of Brussels' most senior officials has said.
Viviane Reding, vice president of the European Commission and the longest serving Brussels commissioner, has called for "a true political union" to be put on the agenda for EU elections this spring.
"We need to build a United States of Europe with the Commission as government and two chambers – the European Parliament and a "Senate" of Member States," she said last night.
Mrs Reding's vision, which is shared by many in the European institutions, would transform the EU into superstate relegating national governments and parliaments to a minor political role equivalent to that played by local councils in Britain.
Under her plan, the commission would have supremacy over governments and MEPs in the European Parliament would supersede the sovereignty of MPs in the House of Commons.
National leaders, meeting as the European Council, would be reduced to consultative, second chamber role similar to the House of Lords."
~ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10559458/We-want-a-United-States-of-Europe-says-top-EU-official.html
Edited by Hands Sandon - 1/8/14 at 2:03pm
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