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Should the UK leave the EU? - Page 3

Poll Results: Should the UK leave the EU?

Poll expired: Feb 1, 2014  
  • 61% (8)
    Yes
  • 38% (5)
    No
13 Total Votes  
post #81 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Yeah, trying to make everyone happy is such a waste of time.  Stick it in with world peace, stopping climate change, and getting future product information out of Apple.  Can't be done, so why bother attempting it.
Whats the point in your post? Is it a pathetic attempt at sarcasm or a down beat, defeatist attitude to the worlds problems?
You can't force happiness, nor peace.
If you are going to do any of those things, it must be backed by the will of the people.
post #82 of 109

It's not a strawman if that's exactly what you said.  Tell you what, if you hold less ridiculous opinions, I'll hold them up to less ridicule, deal?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by biskits86913 View Post

How can we create a Europe where everyone is happy

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

You can’t. Ever. The problem with the EU is that they’re trying.

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post #83 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by biskits86913 View Post

You can't force happiness, nor peace.

 

 

Debateable.  You'll certainly have a lot of difficulty achieving either if you don't try at all.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by biskits86913 View Post

If you are going to do any of those things, it must be backed by the will of the people.

Are you suggesting that the EU isn't backed by the will of the people?  It certainly has its detractors, some of them sensible, but it isn't without sensible cheerleaders either, many across Europe support it (talk to Ukraine for a pertinent example) and there are many things it has achieved.

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post #84 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

I'm not sure where this idea that the UK is the only body keeping the rest of the EU from falling into anarchy is coming from.  The EU has some monetary issues but it's mostly politically stable, while the UK is non-committal to the former issues, and if anything disruptive on the latter stability.  Germany is the main force binding the EU together, not the UK, and the EU would do fine without the UK, but the UK would be in a major bind without the EU.  One need only look to what's going on in Scotland now to see this; Scotland wants independence from the UK, but is relying on entrance into the EU for its economic fortunes because it knows that without those links it'll die.  Unfortunately the assumption of easy entry may be the undoing of Scottish independence, because it looks like it won't be that simple.

You're talking bollocks
post #85 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Nice strawmen. Come here often?

 

Have you ever even travelled outside the U.S? or even outside the Midwest? You trying to argue that the Queen has anything more than ceremonial powers with some lame dictionary terms was embarrassing. 

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

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Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

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post #86 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by comley View Post

You're talking bollocks

Anything in particular you want to offer to further the debate, aside from random indignation?

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post #87 of 109
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post
It's not a strawman if that's exactly what you said.

 

Shame it isn’t, then, huh. You’d be in a much better position if your post is what I said. Just shut up.

 

Originally Posted by gwmac View Post
You trying to argue that the Queen has anything more than ceremonial powers with some lame dictionary terms was embarrassing. 

 

Not what I was arguing, but what do you care about truth?

Originally posted by Marvin

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post #88 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Anything in particular you want to offer to further the debate, aside from random indignation?

Is it English term for I politely disagree with you !

I'm stunned with your belief that United kingdom need European input
post #89 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Shame it isn’t, then, huh. You’d be in a much better position if your post is what I said. Just shut up.

 

 

Not what I was arguing, but what do you care about truth?

 

The only truth you are ever interested in is the one that aligns with your preconceived notions. Any opinion that deviates from your preconceptions is by definition invalid to you. Crowley already deftly tore your previous arguments to pieces. Stop telling him and anyone else to shut up. He contributes far more to this site than you ever have. Slow day on your alternative history forum? 

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

Reply

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

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post #90 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Shame it isn’t, then, huh. You’d be in a much better position if your post is what I said. Just shut up.

 

Right back at you.  You explicitly stated that the EU was wrong for trying to make everyone happy as it can't be done, thereby implying that they'd be right if they didn't try.  Throwing that back at you as a ridiculous statement with some illustrative examples of other things that probably can't be done but that it's worthwhile trying to do is not a strawman.

 

I wonder if there's a word for a person who attempts to deflect an argument with improper dismissals.  Because that's you, that is.

 

Ah well, I'll just add "strawman" to "FUD", "proof", "capital ownership" and "politics of the United Kingdom" to the list of things that you wilfully refuse to understand.

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post #91 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by comley View Post


Is it English term for I politely disagree with you !

I'm stunned with your belief that United kingdom need European input

 

Not sure I ever said that.  Need?  Probably not.  Broadly benefit from?  Sure.  That's a widely held opinion, so I'm not sure why you'd be "stunned" by it.

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post #92 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Not what I was arguing, but what do you care about truth?

 

Flat out lie.  That's exactly what you were arguing, with much tediousness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

The queen’s your leader. Your ruler. Your monarch. She’s in charge.

 

And an entire island of suckers falls for it.


Edited by Crowley - 1/27/14 at 12:32pm

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post #93 of 109



Edited by comley - 1/27/14 at 1:06pm
post #94 of 109
UK would be in a major bind without the EU.  
I respectfully disagree (bollocks)
:-)
post #95 of 109

You don't think losing access to a tariff-free market that currently makes up 50% of our trade would be an issue?

 

You don't think complicating our current assured freedom of movement across all of western and central Europe is anything to worry about?

 

You think jeopardising our diplomatic relationships with every major power as far as Russia and wilfully destabilising their political and economic infratsructure would be without consequence?

 

You don't think that having to rewrite practically every one of our regional agreements on trade, movement, policing and applicability of law, security, and more besides would inevitably cause problems and conflicts that would echo through years or decades? 

 

Elaborate on "bollocks" please.

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post #96 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

You don't think losing access to a tariff-free market that currently makes up 50% of our trade would be an issue?

You don't think complicating our current assured freedom of movement across all of western and central Europe is anything to worry about?

You think jeopardising our diplomatic relationships with every major power as far as Russia and wilfully destabilising their political and economic infratsructure would be without consequence?

You don't think that having to rewrite practically every one of our regional agreements on trade, movement, policing and applicability of law, security, and more besides would inevitably cause problems and conflicts that would echo through years or decades? 

Elaborate on "bollocks" please.

You sound like a Liberal Democrat
post #97 of 109
Which one?

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post #98 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Which one?

Tim Farren lol
post #99 of 109
The guy who resigned from the bench over the Lib Dem refusal to take a position on an EU referendum?

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post #100 of 109
The internets good source of information isn't it ! It has been interesting

http://youtu.be/N7DVUPTkLh4

I don't know if we should leave or stay in Europe personally I would like to leave but I do not know about politics but they let me vote still
Edited by comley - 1/27/14 at 4:39pm
post #101 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post


Debateable.  You'll certainly have a lot of difficulty achieving either if you don't try at all.

Are you suggesting that the EU isn't backed by the will of the people?  It certainly has its detractors, some of them sensible, but it isn't without sensible cheerleaders either, many across Europe support it (talk to Ukraine for a pertinent example) and there are many things it has achieved.
Not debateable at all and no, they shouldn't try and FORCE us to do anything.
I certainly am suggesting its not backed by the will og the people. Ireland was the only country to get a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, they voted no and were told to try again. Infact, politicians across Europe backed out of promised referendums on Lisbon because they knew fine well the people would not support it. The only 2 countries that got a vote on the Euro both said no, Sweden and Denmark. Who knows how many others might of, were they given the choice.
Im talking about the people here, not their governments, so don't say 'Spain had a choice'. The choice was made for them.
As for Ukraine, I saw a protester there on the news a few days ago that said (not word for word but along the lines of) 'We see the EU as the lesser of two evils. One side Russia, the other the EU. But the EU has good human rights laws and free/higher education so we choose them' Ukraine is not Great Britain though, they may very well feel its all worth it. We dont
post #102 of 109
We?

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post #103 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

We?
As in 61% to 38% (apparently that adds up) on this thread and as much as 65% to 35% depending on which polls you choose to read. A majority though yes, we
post #104 of 109
We weren't talking about the literal use of force, we were talking about using policy to bring about happiness and peace, so your equivalency is flawed. It very much is debateable.

Re. everything else, you're talking the specifics of Lisbon and the Euro, not the EU as a concept.
Also interesting that you resort to the "will of the people" after railing against surrendering sovereignty earlier. Governments are elected to govern, not the follow the whims of the mob.
In any case, I don't think you're right about the general consensus. A referendum will be necessary for proof either way of course. Polls can be deceptive.

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post #105 of 109
Thread Starter 

Ah so nice to see that so many good people oppose having a group of folks take away their right to vote for the country they thought they belonged to. The vermin be damned. 

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #106 of 109

Who's taking away my vote?

 

I still have a vote for the UK Parliament (and by association, the Council of the European Union) and I still have a vote for the European Parliament.  Neither are in imminent danger.

 

I don't have a vote for the European Commission, but equally I don't have a vote for the staff of the UK Civil Service.  Nor do I have a vote for the UK House of Lords (if you want to argue for democracy and sovereignty I'd suggest you take a long hard look there first).  And if you follow Tallest Skil's dictionary logic, for representation purposes it is essential that I have a vote in that bastion of UK political power, the Queen.

 

So "right to vote for the country (I) thought (I) belonged to"?  I have pretty much the same amount of voting power in the EU as I do in the UK.  Not a lot. 

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post #107 of 109
Thread Starter 

Dutch would be 'better off' if they left the euro

 

"The average Dutch household could be better off by over £8,000 a year and national income will grow by over £1 trillion if the Netherlands leaves the euro and the EU, according to a new study.

The study by the respected British Capital Economics research consultancy into "Nexit" - as a potential exit by the Netherlands has been termed - finds significant benefits over the next two decades if the country swaps its EU membership for a status similar to Switzerland or Norway.

"Any decision to leave the EU is first and foremost a social, cultural and political one. It must revolve around issues of national sovereignty, citizenship and freedom of determination," the report found.

"However, there are also good reasons to believe that a nation, untied from the bureaucracy of Brussels and able to make decisions for itself rather than have imposed one-size-fits-all policies, will benefit economically too."

The research has been seized upon by Eurosceptics to counter what they see as alarmist warnings from prominent business leaders and mainstream politicians of an economic meltdown if Britain left the EU.

"This report is significant because it has been produced by a credible City research group. It cannot be easily dismissed," said Douglas Carswell, the Conservative MP for Clacton.

"It shows we are no longer alone. It is not just us Brits who have come to realise that European integration is fundamentally flawed. We're very like the Dutch, a small country that has prospered by trading globally. Think what countries like ours could be in a different type of Europe."

While acknowledging risks to leaving the EU, Capital Economics concludes that the Netherlands, a AAA rated creditor country in the eurozone, is better out of the EU because the threat posed to its long-term wealth by the structural problems of the European single currency.

"There are, of course, risks to leaving the union - and these need to be recognised and addressed by anyone considering Nexit," the report said.

"But there are also significant risks to staying in a bloc with a fundamentally flawed currency. In this instance, our analysis shows that the Netherlands would be better off taking control of its own destiny, rather than sticking with the 'devil it knows'."

The report concludes that Dutch national income could increase by as much as €1,500 billion (£1.3 trillion) by 2035 bringing new wealth equivalent to between €9,800 (£8,134) per household each year.

Even if the Netherlands was unable to win a deal the same Switzerland or Norway, which are in the European single market but not members of the EU,"the economy would be better off out of the union than in", he report found.

The independent study was commissioned by Geert Wilders, the leader of the Dutch anti-EU Freedom Party, to assess the cost for the Netherlands of leaving the Union as he leads national opinion polls in the run up to European elections this spring.

"Contrary to what the scaremongers claim, our economy would not grind to a halt. We would earn billions more than right now," he said.

"In the beginning there is a transition period, for example, to switch from the euro to the guilder. But after that time, the economy will grow harder faster than now, ten per cent extra in 2024 and 13pc in 2035."

Dutch opinion polling by Maurice de Hond has found that a majority of 55 per cent support leaving the EU if it can be shown to lead to if this additional economic growth and job creation.

In 2012, Capital Economics won the prestigious Wolfson Prize for a study into how to manage an orderly break-up of the euro, at the height of the European debt crisis.

The 164-page study plays down the costs and turbulence involved in leaving the euro. "There are economic costs to leaving the EU, particularly in relation to replacing the single currency with a national one. But these costs are modest and manageable," it said.

Much of the economic growth forecast by leaving the EU, in a country dominated by the port of Rotterdam, comes by growing "exports to non-European markets faster by negotiating and trading with high growth emerging economies without being tied to a common [EU] trade policy".

Currently many EU free trade deals are on hold or mired in internal disagreement between free trade countries such as Britain and Netherlands and a more protectionist Latin bloc led by France and Italy.

The report on "Nexit", an expression merging the abbreviation for Netherlands and the word exit, also finds economic benefits to being outside the EU, including a reduction in business costs by "a minimum of €20 billion annually by 2035 through ムrenationalisingメ regulations in areas currently in the jurisdiction of Brussels institutions".

Overall the report concludes that the Dutch would be able to manage their economy "more effectively by having the freedom to set monetary and fiscal policy to fit Dutch national conditions, and not the euro-zone as a whole".

The study also finds"a reduction in public expenditure by a minimum of €7.5 billion annually by 2035 by not being bound by EU free movement laws and "through revising immigration policy to focus more tightly on admitting only those who make an economic contribution".

The study contradicts an official Dutch study previous studies on the benefits of EU membership, which calculated it was worth €2,000 Netherlands per person every year."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10621264/Dutch-would-be-better-off-if-they-left-the-euro.html

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #108 of 109
They're already a tax haven. No doubt they'd benefit from being exempt from what European oversight there is of their crooked finance industry. Same goes for the UK too, incidentally.

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post #109 of 109
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

ムrenationalisingメ…

 

Hmm. What’s up with those characters? They’re in the original article, so it’s not a Huddler problem.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
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