or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Google moves toward Chrome as Oracle threatens to establish Android's Java infringement
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Google moves toward Chrome as Oracle threatens to establish Android's Java infringement

post #1 of 112
Thread Starter 
Oracle's Java infringement case against Google's Android is reportedly nearing a reversal of last year's original finding that defended Android. Meanwhile, Google is focusing new attention on Chrome web apps rather than a continuation of Android's original "embrace and extend" Java strategy.

Dalvik


Two moves announced today cast new doubt on the future of the current state of Android as a Java-like platform for running Dalvik virtual machine middleware on mobile devices with limited resources, the company's original strategy for Android (above).

Android Dalvik in hot Java



The first comes from the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. Florian Mueller of FOSS Patents drew early attention to two reports indicating that the court will likely reverse last year's ruling by District Judge William Alsup.

That decision had stated that Google's copying of Oracle's Java API code for use in Android wasn't an infringement of Oracle's rights because the appropriated code wasn't protected by copyright. With a reversal, Oracle can sue for damages and seek to force Google to make Android compatible with Java.

Back in the early 1980s, Apple similarly sued copycat vendor Franklin for cloning its Apple II code. It initially lost before the ruling was overturned by an appeals court that found Apple's code was worthy of copyright in a landmark case that shifted the industry.

If last year's ruling in Google's favor is indeed overturned, there may still be an opportunity for Google to argue that its use of Oracle's Java code was permitted as fair use. In any case, losing the appeal would greatly complicate Google's future plans for Android.

Google moves toward Chrome



With the Java-like architecture of Android's app platform under renewed scrutiny, Google moved to steal headlines with the announcement today that the former leader of Android, Andy Rubin, is now working on robots, a media distraction on the order of Amazon's "Prime Air" stunt for Cyber Monday.

Additionally, a report by Emil Protalinski of The Next Web states that Google is working to bring Chrome web apps to Android and iOS devices as early as next month.

Essentially, Google's plans for Chrome would allow developers to create web-based apps that could run on virtually any mobile device, leveraging the middleware of the web via JavaScript rather than the Java-like virtual machine used by Android.

Google has succeeded in promoting the widespread adoption of Android at the expense of Oracle's own Java (which was similarly on more than 80 percent of phones prior to Android). However, despite replacing the fragmented mess of various Java Mobile implementations with the monoculture of Google's own Dalvik VM, Android hasn't created a rich, successful ecosystem for mobile apps comparable to Apple's iOS App Store.

Shifting away from Android's Dalvik and toward Chrome would allow Google the opportunity to reassert control over the mobile app platform, not just on devices that shipped with Android, but also the other, more valuable half of the mobile market that's using iOS, a market segment that dominates education, the enterprise and affluent users who make purchases.

Additionally, by focusing app development on web apps via Chrome, Google can also move away from Android as a development platform, distancing itself from the core of Oracle's complaint.

Google has also made no secret of Cordova, its plan to host Chrome web apps on Android, a strategy outlined by Mobile Chrome Apps software engineer Michal Mocny this summer (below).



Mobile web apps



Apple already supports web apps on iOS, allowing developers to wrap a generic, standards based mobile web app to appear and behave similarly to a native iOS app written in Objective-C to Apple's proprietary Cocoa Touch development platform.

However, developers including Facebook have backed away from cross platform mobile web apps as a viable strategy, citing the performance and additional sophistication that can be achieved with native code."The biggest mistake we made as a company was betting too much on HTML5 instead of native" - Mark Zuckerberg

Last year, Facebook chief executive Mark Zuckerberg said "we've had a bunch of missteps" in deploying mobile Facebook apps, and that "the biggest mistake we made as a company was betting too much on HTML5 instead of native [platforms]." He added "Native [platform development] is going to be the approach that we go with for iOS and Android" and that "We're betting completely on it."

Apart from Android's Dalvik, Google lacks a substantial native platform code strategy, greatly preferring to use the web as the front end for its popular services ranging from Gmail to Google Docs. In contrast, Apple prefers native apps on iOS and OS X, having only recently created a web version of its iWork suite, and directing any iOS users who seek to access iCloud via the web to use Apple's native iOS apps instead.

Google's move to focus on Chrome was easy to predict after the company replaced Rubin as the head of Android with Sundar Pichai, who had previously worked on Google's Chrome browser and led Chrome OS development.

The move to 64-bit processors in future mobile devices would also be much easier with Chrome, enabling Google to transition just the Android brand to new hardware without having to invest further in Android's defining Dalvik architecture in order to bring it into compliance with Oracle's Java standards.
post #2 of 112
"Oracle's Java infringement case against Google's Android is reportedly nearing a reversal of last year's original finding that defended Android."

My fingers are crossed! Go Larry, spare no evil people.
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
"Google doesn't sell you anything, they just sell you!"
Reply
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
"Google doesn't sell you anything, they just sell you!"
Reply
post #3 of 112

The natives will succeed !

There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.

Frank Zappa

Reply

There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.

Frank Zappa

Reply
post #4 of 112

even more fragmentation from Google, so any developers they convinced to develop for android phone will now have to support yet another version of their programs and deal with all the various issue associated with the new interface.

 

Yeah this is going to go well for them, But if you were in their shoes right about now with all the lawsuits both in the software and hardware worlds around Android and loosing out on the mobile market from an ads placement stand point, they have to do something which is platform agnostic. But we know how well that going to suck for the users...

 

The best part is they sent Andy off to play with Robots, that is Corporate speak for "He is on specially assignment" thus on his way out but they making him work off his contractual requirements, no golden parachute for him. 

post #5 of 112
Should I be breaking out the champaign yet that the fall of Android is upon us?
post #6 of 112
Holy smoke! So, in the end it won't be Apple or Microsoft that will kill Android (is it is now) but Google itself. I am going to play analyst right now and peer into my crystal ball and pull some BS out of my !%^% (analyst must be the best job in the world). I predict that five years from now Android on mobile devices will be only a very small fraction of what it is now. Samsung which is already distancing itself from Android, and is the largest producer of Android products, will finally transition to their own internal OS. Along with this exodus will be many of the third and fourth tier companies that bloat Android's sales figures with rock bottom price cheap products, because they only use Android because it is free. If they have to pay for a Java license then they will find another free solution. Most likely go back to their own in-house solutions that they used to run. I expect that Microsoft will actually be the biggest winner of this fall-out as their old whipping boys will come crawling back to Microsoft rather than paying for a version of Android that Google will no longer be supporting and they don't have the expertise or money to develop themselves.

If you like I also do palm readings. 1smile.gif
post #7 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mknopp View Post

Holy smoke! So, in the end it won't be Apple or Microsoft that will kill Android (is it is now) but Google itself. I am going to play analyst right now and peer into my crystal ball and pull some BS out of my !%^% (analyst must be the best job in the world). I predict that five years from now Android on mobile devices will be only a very small fraction of what it is now. Samsung which is already distancing itself from Android, and is the largest producer of Android products, will finally transition to their own internal OS. Along with this exodus will be many of the third and fourth tier companies that bloat Android's sales figures with rock bottom price cheap products, because they only use Android because it is free. If they have to pay for a Java license then they will find another free solution. Most likely go back to their own in-house solutions that they used to run. I expect that Microsoft will actually be the biggest winner of this fall-out as their old whipping boys will come crawling back to Microsoft rather than paying for a version of Android that Google will no longer be supporting and they don't have the expertise or money to develop themselves.

If you like I also do palm readings. 1smile.gif

Hopefully Scansung's attempt at their own OS will fail miserably.
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
"Google doesn't sell you anything, they just sell you!"
Reply
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
"Google doesn't sell you anything, they just sell you!"
Reply
post #8 of 112

At the initial development of Android, Google even admitted in court that it was either illegally use Java to get to the mobile market quickly due to the iPhone, or to develop something from scratch and be late to the game.  Google essentially pulled a Samsung.  Copy/Infringe, ride the waves and get off before the rocks approach.

I'm not a fan of Larry Ellison, but I hope he drops the hammer on Android.  Freakin wannabe-iOS clone...

post #9 of 112

The telecoms’ response:

post #10 of 112

This article makes it sound like Google's only hope is the use of web apps through Chrome if they lose the lawsuit to Oracle.  Google has already developed an alternative to Dalvik which is present on any device running Android 4.4 KitKat--it's called ART.  Not only does it supposedly avoid all of these issues with Oracle, but it is also supposed to speed everything up on the OS.  A double win!

post #11 of 112

Uh, web apps already exist. k thx bye

post #12 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcellus View Post

 Google has already developed an alternative to Dalvik which is present on any device running Android 4.4 KitKat--it's called ART.

Will they Fork it for tablets ¿
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
post #13 of 112

I actually just had a thought. I wonder how many mobile phone manufacturing companies will simply exit that market if Android starts to include a licensing cost. Every quarter it is released that Apple and Samsung have over 100% of the profits because everyone else lost money. At what point does LG, HTC, Acer, etc. throw up their hands and say that they are done making mobile phones? I expect that any mention of having to invest or spend even more money into a profit blackhole would have to seriously raise that question.

 

If not then I am going to add mobile phone manufacturer CEO as another greatest job ever where I could run a profit losing business for years on end and the investors are fine with it.

post #14 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


Hopefully Scansung's attempt at their own OS will fail miserably.

 

Having worked for Samsung, I can tell you that it will most definitely fail. Samsung does everything half-ass. If people saw how this company is run, they would be shocked that it has been as successful as it has been. Above everything else, Samsung is a copier, not an innovator.

post #15 of 112
Oracle should and will kick google, android, larry page and his glass moron partner as well as that dumb andy rubin with his stupid smile .....'ass! LMAO

Listen folks, this is Larry Ellison we talking. Nobody and I mean nobody should mess with this guy.

....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

Tim Cook ~ The Wall Street Journal - February 7, 2014

Inside Google! 

Reply

....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

Tim Cook ~ The Wall Street Journal - February 7, 2014

Inside Google! 

Reply
post #16 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post


Will they Fork it for tablets ¿
 

 

Umm... Not entirely sure what you are getting at.  KitKat with ART included is currently available on phones and tablets.  I don't know a lot of details about ART, but I fail to see why forking for tablets would be a consideration ¿

post #17 of 112

Yap, Google will ditch Android and because of that they have spent more than a year developing a new runtime to replace Dalvik.

post #18 of 112
Larry and Steve Jobs were best buds. They would both be laughing about this. One upstairs and the other down here.
post #19 of 112
Fair use? Google claims that their use of Java Code is fair use? Building a whole line of business based on someone else's proprietary material is fair use? Ha, ha, ha.
post #20 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


Hopefully Scansung's attempt at their own OS will fail miserably.

 

If their solution was better than Android, one would think they'd emphasize it.

post #21 of 112
Really funny! I saw the headline, and thought to myself "that's a headline that could only have come via that paid shill of Oracle, Florian Muller". He also translated most of Oracles wet dreams into commentary during the first court case, but the judge and jury saw straight through it. One paragraph in, and bingo!

Best of luck, guys. Maybe it won't be Judge Alsup needing to expose that this guy is paid by Oracle for his "independent" views this time around. Perhaps they may one day pick someone more plausible.
post #22 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mknopp View Post
 

I actually just had a thought. I wonder how many mobile phone manufacturing companies will simply exit that market if Android starts to include a licensing cost. Every quarter it is released that Apple and Samsung have over 100% of the profits because everyone else lost money. At what point does LG, HTC, Acer, etc. throw up their hands and say that they are done making mobile phones? I expect that any mention of having to invest or spend even more money into a profit blackhole would have to seriously raise that question.

 

If not then I am going to add mobile phone manufacturer CEO as another greatest job ever where I could run a profit losing business for years on end and the investors are fine with it.

 

I've wondered if the likes of LG and Samsung largely went into the mobile handset business on their own as the other big names started getting slaughtered.  People like Nokia, Motorola, Ericsson, and so forth, started drawing down their supply chain, leaving people like LG and Samsung with production lines churning out parts that were not being bought by anyone else.

 

So, you have all this inventory and production lines that still haven't been fully paid for.  If they invest $1 billion in a line with an expectation of having it paid in 10 years, but they're six years in and those they were expecting to buy the product suddenly stop buying ... well... not hard to see the math there.

 

Maybe it's all just an exercise in cost recovery for Samsung...

 

Just my thoughts.

post #23 of 112
Originally Posted by bobbyfozz View Post
Larry and Steve Jobs were best buds.

 

You obviously know nothing.

post #24 of 112

I think there is another reason not addressed in the article for Google to move away from Dalvik VM.  By using a register based Java virtual machine, Androids runtimes are forever stuck in a 32 bit environment and unable to directly use new hardware features of future ARM SoC.

post #25 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post
 

I think there is another reason not addressed in the article for Google to move away for Dalvik VM.  By using a register based Java virtual machine, Androids runtimes are forever stuck in a 32 bit environment and unable to directly use new hardware features of future ARM SoC.

 

Ein? Dalvik can, and in fact run, on 64 bit processors already

post #26 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
 

 

Ein? Dalvik can, and in fact run, on 64 bit processors already

 

Running the VM on a 64bit processor is one thing,  the virtualized environment where apps are running is still a 32 bit one.

post #27 of 112
How awesome.

After hearing so long about Apple's supposedly gloomy future it appears the reverse is true:

Android is doomed.

1wink.gif
If you want to make enemies, try to change something.
Reply
If you want to make enemies, try to change something.
Reply
post #28 of 112

I have a question about Samsung's rumored OS (or whatever the correct term is), Tizen. If it is eventually released and ends up copying Android in any way, will Google have a legal basis to sue Samsung? With Android's own shaky foundation, it seems to me (an outsider) that Google will not have a solid leg to stand on.

post #29 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcellus View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Will they Fork it for tablets ¿

Umm... Not entirely sure what you are getting at.  KitKat with ART included is currently available on phones and tablets.  I don't know a lot of details about ART, but I fail to see why forking for tablets would be a consideration ¿

Apologies. It was my lame attempt at stupid humor, trying to create a Fork from ART; FART in short. Hence the Inverted question markInverted question mark
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
post #30 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTown View Post

I have a question about Samsung's rumored OS (or whatever the correct term is), Tizen. If it is eventually released and ends up copying Android in any way, will Google have a legal basis to sue Samsung? With Android's own shaky foundation, it seems to me (an outsider) that Google will not have a solid leg to stand on.

Tizen is open source, just not the SDK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
Send from my iPhone. Excuse brevity and auto-corrupt.
Reply
post #31 of 112
so unless I'm not understanding this correctly, the new Android Run Time is Google's response to the situation with Dalvik. As I understand it, ART allows the CPU to directly execute the native code of android apps, rather than having to first be interpreted, a la Dalvik (this is how java works as well). The advantages are obvious in terms of performance.

And the best part? you can enable ART right now, and most apps are working fine without any tweaks. Many apps have benefited with a noticeable increase in performance, as well. I'm running ART on my nexus 5/7, and all my apps are working with the exception of whatsapp. here is a good explanation of ART vs. Dalvik

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/170677-android-art-google-finally-moves-to-replace-dalvik-to-boost-performance-and-battery-life

So in summary, I think the premise of this article is flawed. chrome is not the solution, ART is, and it's already baked into Android 4.4
post #32 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac2 View Post
 

 

Running the VM on a 64bit processor is one thing,  the virtualized environment where apps are running is still a 32 bit one.

 

No, Android runs natively on 64 bit processor, last one, Intel x64 Atom

 

And, by the way, why do you say that being a register based VM it can't be used natively in a 64 bit architecture

post #33 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by mknopp View Post

I actually just had a thought. I wonder how many mobile phone manufacturing companies will simply exit that market if Android starts to include a licensing cost. Every quarter it is released that Apple and Samsung have over 100% of the profits because everyone else lost money. At what point does LG, HTC, Acer, etc. throw up their hands and say that they are done making mobile phones? I expect that any mention of having to invest or spend even more money into a profit blackhole would have to seriously raise that question.

If not then I am going to add mobile phone manufacturer CEO as another greatest job ever where I could run a profit losing business for years on end and the investors are fine with it.

The guessing at this point seems to be the Appeals Court finding that Judge Alsup erred when he opined that the API's were not copyrightable to begin with. The guesses then go on to say that there would then be another trial to determine if Google's limited use of the API's constituted "fair use". In the first trial it was reported that all but one of the jurors found in Google's favor on "fair use" of the copyrighted material tho at the time it didn't matter as the Judge's ruling made it moot.

It's not unlike the recent book scanning trial that finally found that yes the books Google and their scholarly partners scanned were indeed copyrightable but Google and partners did nothing wrong in scanning them because it was deemed to be "fair use".
Edited by Gatorguy - 12/4/13 at 1:00pm
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #34 of 112
It doesn't matter how many times you push this 'Google ditching Android' narrative DED, it's not going to make it any truer.

Google has hired a significant number of new Android devs in the past six months.
post #35 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
 

 

No, Android runs natively on 64 bit processor, last one, Intel x64 Atom

 

True, Android operating system could run natively on a 64bit hardware. But porting Dalvik on another architecture It doesn't change Dalvik virtual processor specs, since Dalvik are a register base VM and not a traditional stack VM like Java SE, the virtualized register are fixed width at 32bit and can't be change without a major revision of DalvikVM specs.   It's like using a 32 bit virtual machine with Parallels desktop, even if you're using a 64 bit host computer, the virtualized environment is still a 32 bit one. 

 

I don't say DalvikVM can't run natively on a 64bit hardware, I'm only saying because of it's virtualization nature, DalvikVM runtimes still be a 32 bit environment only even if it is running on a 64 bit processor. The same way you could run DalvikVM natively on a 16 bit processor to emulate an 32 bit VM at unusable slow speed.


Edited by BigMac2 - 12/4/13 at 1:36pm
post #36 of 112
Android is pathetic and it served as the os for all those cheap ass black Friday $49.99 tablets Best Buy had tossed into those big ole plastic grab and go(suckers) containers.
post #37 of 112

I'm just wondering - aren't any court wins for Oracle against Google at this point just pyrrhic victories?  Google already had years to milk the profits out of Android and as someone pointed out, Google has been working on moving Android to a platform that doesn't infringe on Java.  So all Google has to do is stall the proceedings as much as possible to gain the maximum mileage out of Java-based Android before moving on to the non-infringing version of Android.  So Oracle will at most get damages which Google can afford to pay given all the profits they have milked out of Android.

 

So it appears that the strategy being employed by Google and Samsung is as follows:

 

1) Infringe on intellectual property and get to market faster.

2) Milk as much profit out of infringement as possible while the lawsuits take years to go through courts.

3) Move on to the next intellectual property infringement as soon as the court judgement on #1 is finalized.

4) Pay monetary damages for #1  (which will be peanuts compared to the profits from #2).  

5) Rinse and repeat.

 

So I am not sure how any court losses on intellectual property infringement would actually be damaging to Google at this point, unless the court mandates the disgorgement of profits which is highly unlikely (the bar is set too high for this type of punishment).

post #38 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian.Waring View Post

Really funny! I saw the headline, and thought to myself "that's a headline that could only have come via that paid shill of Oracle, Florian Muller". He also translated most of Oracles wet dreams into commentary during the first court case, but the judge and jury saw straight through it. One paragraph in, and bingo!

Best of luck, guys. Maybe it won't be Judge Alsup needing to expose that this guy is paid by Oracle for his "independent" views this time around. Perhaps they may one day pick someone more plausible.

 

Mueller reported based on information in tweets from Dan Levine (Reuters) and Scott K. Graham (The Recorder/Law.com) which came from the courtroom, are linked to in his post and seem to be factual.

 

Are they "paid shills" too?

 

Which part is biased, perhaps you can fill us in on what "really" happened there today?


Edited by hill60 - 12/4/13 at 12:59pm
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #39 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTown View Post

I have a question about Samsung's rumored OS (or whatever the correct term is), Tizen. If it is eventually released and ends up copying Android in any way, will Google have a legal basis to sue Samsung? 

Google might have a legal basis to sue, but there's no way they would IMHO. They have a near zero history of asserting their IP against other techs or search providers. No good reason to start now.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #40 of 112
What I find strange is that Google wants to make itself look petty and cheap. They could easily admit their errors and simply broadly license Java from Oracle and be done with it. Instead they seem to be hell bent on turning the Androud ecosystem upside down. Even if Oracle charged a billion dollars Google could easily handle the costs.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPhone
  • Google moves toward Chrome as Oracle threatens to establish Android's Java infringement
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Google moves toward Chrome as Oracle threatens to establish Android's Java infringement