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post #81 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post
 

Not surprising, the far-right Apple fans are absent from the conversation.

 

I think those who visit here purely for political arguments stay in Political Outsider.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #82 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 

 

They were married. Do you really think Winnie was doing something Nelson was not aware of? Especially since she was giving speeches on how to perform a "necklacing"?

 

OJ Simpson was married to Nicole Brown, too.

post #83 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by j4zb4 View Post

I am appalled by the ignorance and the snottiness in this thread... And this is my first post here... I am already wondering why I even joined this forum...

You joined to improve the standard of discourse here.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #84 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

I have not lied, Mandela openly admitted these acts. Get your facts right before calling me a liar. The difference between me and most other people here is that I see him in shades of grey as opposed to seeing him as some god like saint.

And he paid his debt to society, and after his release went on to to be a upstanding human being. Should we forget what he did? No, but it shouldn't discount what he did later in his life.
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post #85 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


And he paid his debt to society, and after his release went on to to be a upstanding human being. Should we forget what he did? No, but it shouldn't discount what he did later in his life.

 

I've said for years (and it's not like I'm the only one who's ever said this) that if all of our lives are judged solely by the worst thing we've ever done, we are all in a LOT of trouble.

post #86 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabberattack View Post

Yep, what I like the most is him singing "kill all whites".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOXqFQw2hc

He was just a plain communist with communist methods of killing.




If they honored Margaret Thatcher, the person who pulled down the Iron Curtain, I wouldn't blink an eye. There was no response to her death from Apple and of course our Commander in Chief sent no serving representation to her funeral. With Mandela, this public outcry is completely inappropriate, commie is a commie.

I've always been partial to this version.

Edited by dasanman69 - 12/7/13 at 7:24pm
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post #87 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

Had Mandela attacked military/government/police based targets I'd put him into the freedom fighter category.

But his tactics were no different to Bin Ladens.

In fact, it would be interesting to see Bin Laden sanctified for similar reasons one day - after all, his causes against soviets and later the US government (which actually created Bin Laden in the first place) were similar no matter how much people may try to spin a difference.

But in the end, you know why he won't? A very simple factor called "victor's justice".
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post #88 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by brlawyer View Post


In fact, it would be interesting to see Bin Laden sanctified for similar reasons one day - after all, his causes against soviets and later the US government (which actually created Bin Laden in the first place) were similar no matter how much people may try to spin a difference.

But in the end, you know why he won't? A very simple factor called "victor's justice".

 

Who exactly was Bin Laden trying to liberate from crushing, dehumanizing oppression?

post #89 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ochyming View Post

Yeah, he should have sided with the West, watching his people and land get raped.


No, he should not have.
Quote:
And please DO not compare Gandhi’s style with that of Mandela’s
I never mentioned Ghandi.
Quote:
Did the Apartheid regime have a choice NOT to butcher Africans, ANC activists and its sympathizers?
Yes.
Quote:
Mandela actions were forced by cowardice
No they weren't. They were a decision he made. He was not forced to use violence
Quote:
Now WHY the regime was so inhuman?
Cause they were a bunch of racist douchebags.
post #90 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronJ View Post

Who exactly was Bin Laden trying to liberate from crushing, dehumanizing oppression?

Afghan people first against soviets, then Palestinians against the Israeli-enforced Apartheid. In case of doubt, you may ask the CIA's opinion on Bin Laden and his crew back in the 80s. Aren't double standards beautiful?
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post #91 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by brlawyer View Post


Afghan people first against soviets, then Palestinians against the Israeli-enforced Apartheid. In case of doubt, you may ask the CIA's opinion on Bin Laden and his crew back in the 80s. Aren't double standards beautiful?

 

The fact that you can even compare Bin Laden's role in Afghanistan with Mandela's in his South Africa is simply amazing to me.

 

With that, I'm done discussing this.

post #92 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronJ View Post

The fact that you can even compare Bin Laden's role in Afghanistan with Mandela's in his South Africa is simply amazing to me.

With that, I'm done discussing this.

Yes, it's better to stop right here before it gets any uglier...in any case, I was just highlighting how easy it can be for perceptions and standards to change depending on which side of the fence you prefer.

If we were still in Cold War times, BL would be a "freedom fighter" (just like those barbaric lung-ripping "Syrian" mercenaries praised by the "west") - but then he became a "terrorist" once his target moved from "soviet commy" to "US imperialist".

Or perhaps you forget how Rumsfeld shook hands with chemical weapons user Saddam Hussein in his inhuman war waged against innocent Iran...and so on and so forth.

So let's just agree that Mandela successfully fought for a certain group against the Afrikaners, who ALSO happen to belong to South Africa...otherwise, you may also wish to evict all those racist caucasian "invaders" who have almost wiped all native indigenous groups from the Americas...yes, relativism is bliss.
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post #93 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

They were married. Do you really think Winnie was doing something Nelson was not aware of? Especially since she was giving speeches on how to perform a "necklacing"?

I'm sorry, but this simplistic statement shows you don't know the history behind the major event you brought up. He has long contended that he was opposed to her speech, and vigorously disputed a document that surfaced years later, from the interview notes of a biographer, a single sentence which said that he had approved of it.

Regardless of how we look at his life, A) Winnie was a far more incendiary and less wise person than he was, and; B) He was on year 23 of a 27 year prison sentence when she made the speech, and insists he did not condone it.

The story of Winnie Mandela is not the story of Nelson Mandela, regardless of the fact that they were married, by a long shot, and the "necklace speech" was her defining moment, hardly his.
post #94 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post


I'm sorry, but this simplistic statement shows you don't know the history behind the major event you brought up. He has long contended that he was opposed to her speech, and vigorously disputed a document that surfaced years later, from the interview notes of a biographer, a single sentence which said that he had approved of it.

Regardless of how we look at his life, A) Winnie was a far more incendiary and less wise person than he was, and; B) He was on year 23 of a 27 year prison sentence when she made the speech, and insists he did not condone it.

The story of Winnie Mandela is not the story of Nelson Mandela, regardless of the fact that they were married, by a long shot, and the "necklace speech" was her defining moment, hardly his.

 

Your approach is so similar to this funny/sad statement from the current politics:

 

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post #95 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabberattack View Post

Your approach is so similar to this funny/sad statement from the current politics:



Of course he was aware of it. But he was in opposition to her speech, which she made while he was still in prison. Nothing like an administration claiming to not know what's going on.
post #96 of 144

I'm a white South African and lived through Mandela's release and his election as first black President. I won't lie, we were scared, but what happened? Did he make mince of us whites? Genocide, bombings, necklacing? No. He surprised us, treated us as human beings, after what 'our' government did to him and his colleagues. 

 

Sure, he's made mistakes, serious ones at that - but he came out of prison a different man. He understood things on a much deeper level than we do and he saw beyond racism, etc. South Africa could've ended in a blood bath and it didn't. It actually went forward.

 

For what he did, he's been awarded the world around. On his deaths, speeches, flags at half mast, and on and on. Does this not carry weight as to who he was?

 

So, as a South African, albeit white, I have my right to say:

 

Respect this man and let him rest in peace. 

post #97 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Checco View Post

I'm a white South African and lived through Mandela's release and his election as first black President. I won't lie, we were scared, but what happened? Did he make mince of us whites? Genocide, bombings, necklacing? No. He surprised us, treated us as human beings, after what 'our' government did to him and his colleagues. 

Sure, he's made mistakes, serious ones at that - but he came out of prison a different man. He understood things on a much deeper level than we do and he saw beyond racism, etc. South Africa could've ended in a blood bath and it didn't. It actually went forward.

For what he did, he's been awarded the world around. On his deaths, speeches, flags at half mast, and on and on. Does this not carry weight as to who he was?

So, as a South African, albeit white, I have my right to say:

Respect this man and let him rest in peace. 

Our opinions are our own, so take them for what they are.

Now, about his Communist ties... And the sorry economic state of South Africa... Any opinions?

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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GOA

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post #98 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabberattack View Post



That reminds me of the Clinton hearing:

"No I did not have sex with that woman". Mumbling "We're talking about Hilary, right?"
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post #99 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 

 

I'd be among the first to call out Reagan on the "war on drugs" police and military buildup that flourished under his administration, and he was certainly no promoter of free-market capitalism even though he somehow got that reputation.

 

The fact is, the same lousy policies that existed under Reagan continued under Bush and Clinton, then Bush and Obama. Washington is a cesspool in which all sensibility and adherence to the Constitution and Bill of Rights has long since sunk.

 

My biggest laughs come from partisans who still believe there is a vast difference between Republicans and Democrats. They are largely the same.

 

Policies exist because they were the rule of law and signed into law under Reagan. Until said laws are overturned by Congress and signed into Law by the sitting President they are the duties of the Executive Branch to enforce said laws. The Executive has discretion on how they are enforced [Marijuana under Holder being hands-off by states that voted legalization], or used as legal tender to create regional wars and ultimately as leverage for US conglomerates [Reagan].

post #100 of 144
So I'm reading some of the comments and I find myself disgusted at the comments that I have been seeing. It's so easy for people to without know the facts and not being on the side which went through the oppression. There are always casualties in all this cases. No this does not justify the killing if innocents. But the ANC tried to do this in a peaceful manner that failed. Freedom is not free. A lot of people died so that I could experience this freedom. One of them being my grandfather. The raids that happened at midnight the apartheid police dragging our fathers and brothers and them being tortured. The amount of black people that died with some families to this age no knowing where there families are are. Look at the likes of Steve biko, who was killed by torture by the apartheid police. All that they wanted is to be equals. It's is ok for you to sit there and make stupid comment that shows ur primitive mind. Mandela is our hero and icon. If you had gone through what black people who know how much hatred you would have had but most black people chose to forgive and not take revenge. So for to disrespect Mandela especial at this time when people are morning his death is disgusting. You don't have a shred of dignity.
post #101 of 144

This man deserves dignity and honor what he did for his country and his people.Respect him!

post #102 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebookofeli View Post

So I'm reading some of the comments and I find myself disgusted at the comments that I have been seeing. It's so easy for people to without know the facts and not being on the side which went through the oppression. There are always casualties in all this cases. No this does not justify the killing if innocents. But the ANC tried to do this in a peaceful manner that failed. Freedom is not free. A lot of people died so that I could experience this freedom. One of them being my grandfather. The raids that happened at midnight the apartheid police dragging our fathers and brothers and them being tortured. The amount of black people that died with some families to this age no knowing where there families are are. Look at the likes of Steve biko, who was killed by torture by the apartheid police. All that they wanted is to be equals. It's is ok for you to sit there and make stupid comment that shows ur primitive mind. Mandela is our hero and icon. If you had gone through what black people who know how much hatred you would have had but most black people chose to forgive and not take revenge. So for to disrespect Mandela especial at this time when people are morning his death is disgusting. You don't have a shred of dignity.

It's not disrespect, it's the false idolizing of what happened in SA. Sadly the current status of the country is very close to genocide, this time on whites.

"Genocide Watch, an international monitoring agency, says there is no doubt that white farmers are being targeted. South Africa sits at stage five out of eight on its warning indicator. This is actually a slight improvement from August 2012, when the international organization warned the country was in the “preparation stage” in the genocide process. Stage seven is “extermination.” The group noted that high-ranking African National Congress (ANC) government officials were using racial epithets in a “campaign of state-sponsored dehumanization of the white population as a whole.” It warned that politicians were sanctioning gang-organized hate crimes against whites, with the goal of “terrorizing whites through fear of genocidal annihilation.”
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post #103 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabberattack View Post

It's not disrespect, it's the false idolizing of what happened in SA. Sadly the current status of the country is very close to genocide, this time on whites.

"Genocide Watch, an international monitoring agency, says there is no doubt that white farmers are being targeted. South Africa sits at stage five out of eight on its warning indicator. This is actually a slight improvement from August 2012, when the international organization warned the country was in the “preparation stage” in the genocide process. Stage seven is “extermination.” The group noted that high-ranking African National Congress (ANC) government officials were using racial epithets in a “campaign of state-sponsored dehumanization of the white population as a whole.” It warned that politicians were sanctioning gang-organized hate crimes against whites, with the goal of “terrorizing whites through fear of genocidal annihilation.”
It's has nothing to do with racial targeting. It's just criminal elements. Black farmers are also targeted, it's just the media choose to publicize the ones with the white farmers. Thing is farmers are isolated and criminals see that as a advantage. Unfortunately it's easy to say they attacking "white" people. I know this because I live in South Africa. Why is it that in heavely populated urban area like Sandton or fourways or camps bay we don't hear about it. Majority of white people live in urban areas. So we now where near the genocidal tendencies that you claim. Yes ANC official who was expelled Julius Marlena did say kill the boer... I totally agree with you that is totally wrong. But I can tell you that 95 percent of black people do not agree with what he said. I for one don't as well. Do not take criminal elements and racialise them. Just as there are bro nazi people in Germany which would be a minority or the ku klux klan in the United States do we now go on the blame the majority......I think not. And maybe these are racial murders but I can tell you a a very small minority who are criminal foremost
post #104 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebookofeli View Post


It's has nothing to do with racial targeting. It's just criminal elements. Black farmers are also targeted, it's just the media choose to publicize the ones with the white farmers. Thing is farmers are isolated and criminals see that as a advantage. Unfortunately it's easy to say they attacking "white" people. I know this because I live in South Africa. Why is it that in heavely populated urban area like Sandton or fourways or camps bay we don't hear about it. Majority of white people live in urban areas. So we now where near the genocidal tendencies that you claim. Yes ANC official who was expelled Julius Marlena did say kill the boer... I totally agree with you that is totally wrong. But I can tell you that 95 percent of black people do not agree with what he said. I for one don't as well. Do not take criminal elements and racialise them. Just as there are bro nazi people in Germany which would be a minority or the ku klux klan in the United States do we now go on the blame the majority......I think not. And maybe these are racial murders but I can tell you a a very small minority who are criminal foremost

 

 

Not true:

 

"Last year, South Africa had an astoundingly high murder rate of 31.9 per 100,000 people, according to police statistics. That is almost 20 times the murder rate of Canada, 27 times the rate in the United Kingdom, and more than 30 times the rate in Australia or New Zealand. South Africa’s murder rate is almost twice as high as Rwanda, Chad, Sierra Leone and Zimbabwe.

But for white farmers in South Africa, the murder rate is 99 per 100,000!

That makes farming in South Africa the most dangerous profession in the world—if you are white! For black farmers, the murder rate is the average."

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post #105 of 144
Originally Posted by gabberattack View Post
Man, I am from Czechoslovakia

 

that's interesting as Czechoslovakia no longer exists.

post #106 of 144
Are whites really being killed 'like flies'?
Comments on SA's murder rate and the quality of life of white South Africans have been grossly exaggerated. Nechama Brodie tells us why.

Musician Steve Hofmeyr. (Gallo)
Nechama Brodie
mg.co.za, Thu 10 Oct 2013 10:15 GMT+2
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This piece was previously published by Africa Check.

South African musician Steve Hofmeyr has claimed that the number of white South Africans killed by blacks would fill a soccer stadium, that white Afrikaners are being killed "like flies" and that a white farmer is murdered every five days. But the claims are incorrect and grossly exaggerated. In fact, whites are less likely to be murdered than any other race group.

Are white Afrikaners really being killed "like flies"? Is a white South African farmer being "slaughtered every five days"? Would the number of whites "killed in SA in black on white violence" fill one of the country's largest football stadiums?

These are some of the claims made recently by Steve Hofmeyr, one of South Africa's most popular, and controversial, Afrikaans singers and performers. In a post on his blog and Facebook page titled "My tribe is dying", Hofmeyr made several sweeping statements about South Africa's murder rate and the quality of life of white Afrikaans-speaking South Africans.

Within a day of it being posted, Hofmeyr's blog entry and a pie chart that he used to support some of his claims were "liked" by more than 2 000 Facebook users. A similar number also shared the post on their Facebook pages.

The Facebook entry was subsequently removed but later reposted without the pie chart. By way of explanation Hofmeyr stated: "The facts are good but they shouldn't be in a pie chart. Im removing the pic. It will be replaced with the real PIE." On his Facebook page Hofmeyr explained the issue with the pie chart was not with the statistics, rather: "It should be separate charts (pre&post Apartheid)."

At the same time, Hofmeyr posted an image of the interior of a "World Cup soccer stadium" – which appears to be Johannesburg's Soccer City – together with a statement that the "amount of whites killed in SA in black on white violence" would produce a body count capable of filling the stadium's seats.

'A lot of bodies to lose in stats'
Hofmeyr then went on to make the following statements on Twitter:

"Old SA averaged 7 039 murders/year from 1 950. New SA averaged 2 4206 (SAP) [South African Police Service] or 47 882 (Interpol). Sorry Columbia [sic]. We still champs."
"When SAP claimed 26 000 murders in 96, Interpol counted 54 000. A lot of bodies to lose in stats."
"There is a discrepancy of 10 000 murders per year between government and MRC figures!"
Several readers asked Africa Check to investigate the accuracy of Hofmeyr's various claims, among them that:

Whites are being murdered at a rate faster than any previous period in South Africa's history;
A white farmer is murdered every five days;
During apartheid, black-on-black violence was responsible for the majority of black homicides, with only a fractional percentage of black murders due to government forces;
"Whites killed by blacks since apartheid 77.3%". This is unclear as Hofmeyr has not indicated what factor the percentage is of, however Africa Check assumes Hofmeyr is stating 77.3% of all white homicides (since 1994) have been perpetrated by blacks;
The number of whites killed by blacks in South Africa is equivalent to, or more than, the number of seats at Soccer City stadium, which has a maximum seating capacity of 94 736; and
There are significant discrepancies between murders reported by the South African Police Service (SAPS) and other agencies and that these discrepancies have been used to hide or obscure the "truth" about murder in South Africa.
Where does Hofmeyr get his information?
Hofmeyr declined to reveal his sources to Africa Check but later stated on Twitter: "Our unpopular pie-chart is from a book by Vusi Tshabalala and merely highlites [sic] the lie of white on black genocide during Apartheid". Africa Check has not been able to establish whether Vusi Tshabalala really exists or which publication Hofmeyr was referring to.

On various white right-wing sites, reference is made to a "Vusile Tshabalala" who supposedly wrote an article in 2001 about the "killing fields" of post-apartheid South Africa. Invariably the sites describe Tshabalala as a "journalist" and then, for emphasis, as a "black journalist". No indication is given of where Tshabalala worked, nor does he appear to have written any other articles.

Hofmeyr's other claims appear to stem from a 2003 paper titled, "Murder in South Africa: a comparison of past and present". It was written by Rob McCafferty, then a communications director for the conservative Cape Town-based lobby group, United Christian Action.

McCafferty's paper, published at the peak of crime levels in South Africa, appeared to offer a comprehensive survey of crime literature and subsequent analysis of crime data and trends over a period of more than five decades. There are, however, several significant flaws in the presentation and interpretation of data, some of which McCafferty acknowledged himself.

There are no 'average' murders
​McCafferty's paper presented a graph based on figures sourced directly from "annual police reports and CSS: Statistics of Offence annual reports" showing the total number of murders reported to the police between 1950 and 2000.

McCafferty conceded in his paper that "factors such as population growth and differentials in time periods …would make it unfair to compare this data" and pointed out that it was "not logically sound to do such comparisons".

But McCafferty proceeded to do just that and aggregated 44 years of murder numbers (309 583 recorded murders from 1950 to 1993) to reach an "average" of 7 036 murders a year under apartheid.

He then contrasted that figure with his own aggregation of post-1994 Interpol statistics, from which he determined an annual average of 47 882 murders.

This appears to make a case for a shocking increase in homicides in the post-apartheid era. But, as we explain below, the Interpol murder statistics McCafferty used are widely regarded as inaccurate. And McCafferty's "average" murder numbers show a very different picture when plotted against South Africa's population figures.

Murder and other crime statistics are commonly expressed by statisticians, crime analysts and researchers as a ratio per 100 000 of the population rather than in raw numbers. McCafferty's failure to have done so indicates exactly why this is preferred practise.

According to McCafferty's graph, less than 2 500 murders were reported to the police in 1951. The census results of that year indicate that the total population of South Africa at the time was 12 671 452. The "murder ratio" therefore works out at 19.73 murders for every 100 000 people.

By 1970, the total number of reported murders appeared to be approaching 7 000. With a population of about 21.7-million, this would equate to a murder ratio of 32.12 per 100 000.

Murder rate continued to decline
McCafferty's graph showed that the number of homicides increased steadily from 1950. What McCafferty had not taken into account was that South Africa's population had also steadily increased.

By 1994, South Africa's murder numbers, according to McCafferty, reached 25 000 a year. With a population of just under 40-million, this translated to a murder ratio of a 62.5. South Africa's murder rate for all races peaked in the period during and following the transition to democracy.

However, in a paper published by the Medical Research Council crime analyst and author Antony Altbeker found that by 2003/4 the rate had fallen to less than 43 murders per 100 000. The murder rate has continued to decline since then, dropping to 30.9 for 2011/12 according to the South African Police Service Crime Statistics Overview. Significantly, given Hofmeyr's claims, it is lower than the murder rate documented in 1970 under apartheid.

All the independent security and research experts we consulted for this report agreed that current murder figures provided by the SAPS should be considered accurate.

The trouble with apartheid-era data
​Both Altbeker and Mark Shaw, a senior researcher at the Institute for Security Studies who has worked extensively with apartheid-era crime data, told Africa Check that official police figures during apartheid were not an accurate representation of national homicide rates.

Crime reports from the Bantustans – the nominally independent black "homelands" established under the auspices of the apartheid state – were not included in South Africa's national figures. In addition, according to Shaw, "a proportion of homicide cases among Africans were not reported or recorded" owing to the absence or lower levels of policing in the townships and rural areas.

Therefore it is probable that while white homicides during apartheid were accurately documented by the state, the number of black homicides was understated in official reports. For this reason, the "blacks killed" portions of Hofmeyr's chart must be discounted; the data is simply not reliable enough to make any accurate findings – and the role of apartheid in creating or contributing to violence and murder in black communities is difficult to isolate.

Since 1990, race has not been listed as a category in official death records. This deliberate omission may have been intended to avoid exactly the kind of issue raised by Hofmeyr's claims; the interpretation of raw data by non-experts to support some form of race-based conspiracy theory. In reality, however, the absence of such information has effectively perpetuated a race-crime mythology in South Africa.

It is, however, possible to gauge trends in white homicide based on older data. A 2004 report published in the South African Crime Quarterly compares homicide rates across all races from 1937 to 2003. Based on this, it is clear that homicide rates for all races increased over this period (although they fell somewhat from 2003 onward). However, the increase in the white homicide rate began in the late 1970s and has remained markedly less than the increase in murder rates for all other race groups.

Murder by numbers
A central thread of Hofmeyr's claims relates to apparent discrepancies in South African murder statistics. Hofmeyr cites figures that appeared in McCafferty's report which stated that while "police crime statistics show there were 21 683 murders in 2000, the [Medical Research Council] puts the figure at 32 482?" McCaffrey also stated that "while the SAPS claims there were 26 883 murders in 1995/96, Interpol claims there were 54 298".

In its report at the time, the MRC said it "notes discrepancies in the statistics concerning road traffic accident deaths and homicides which needs further investigation". A revision of the 2000 data was published in 2006, in which the total number of deaths was revised downwards, from 550 000 to 520 000, and the "number of injury deaths" [which include homicide and traffic accidents] was "revised down by about 10 000".

Based on this updated information, it was stated that of "the estimated 59 935 injury deaths in 2000, 46% (27 563) were homicides". That still leaves a discrepancy of nearly 6 000 deaths.

Altbeker dealt with this specific issue in great detail in his report on murder and robbery in South Africa, in which he argued that "the MRC's figures cannot be reliably used to refute the numbers presented by SAPS". In short, he found that the data used to compile the MRC's estimates had been incomplete or flawed and had yielded an inaccurate and overstated picture.

The "murder gap" between Interpol and SAPS numbers is easier to explain. Altbeker told Africa Check that Interpol combined both murder and attempted murder figures for South Africa, resulting in inflated numbers. This is confirmed by the 1999 Global Report on Crime and Justice published by the United Nations Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention. Altbeker wrote extensively about the challenges with international crime data collection and comparison in a separate paper.

Both McCafferty and Hofmeyr's claims about murder number discrepancies must therefore be dismissed.

White death in a time of democracy
"Whites are far less likely to be murdered than their black or coloured counterparts," Lizette Lancaster, who manages the Institute for Security Studies crime and justice hub, told Africa Check. This is supported by an analysis of a national sample of 1 378 murder dockets conducted by police in 2009. In 86.9% of the cases, the victims were Africans. Whites accounted for 1.8% of the cases (although whites make up 8.85% of the population).

According to Lancaster official police statistics show that between April 1994 and March 2012 a total of 361 015 people were murdered in South Africa. Applying the 1.8% figure, it would mean that roughly 6 498 whites have been murdered since April 1994.

Even if there were some variation on the 1.8% figure, the number of white murder victims would still fail to come anywhere close to filling a soccer stadium. The fact is that whites are less likely to be murdered than any other race in South Africa. The current murder rate of white South Africans is also equivalent to, or lower than, murder rates for whites recorded between 1979 and 1991.

According to the latest SAPS annual report, Lancaster said,"only about 16% of murders occurred during the commission of another crime, mainly aggravated robbery. About 65% of murders started off as assaults due to interpersonal arguments and fuelled by alcohol and/or drugs, result[ing] in a murder". The vast majority of murders are, she said,"social fabric crimes often perpetrated by friends or loved ones".

The 2012 Victims of Crime Survey confirmed this assertion, stating that 16.1% of victims were "murdered by unknown people from outside their residential area" with an additional 10.9% of "murders … committed by known perpetrators outside [the victims'] residential area", and the balance of homicides committed by community members, spouses and friends or acquaintances.

Even if the proportion of "outsider" crime was doubled for white homicide victims, this would still fall drastically short of the "77.3%" of white murders that Hofmeyr appears to claim are at the hands of black perpetrators.

Farm attacks
The interpretation of data on "farm attacks" is problematic as it relies on old police data and current, self-reported data collected and submitted by the Transvaal Agricultural Union of South Africa (Tausa).

Tausa figures for the 22 years between 1990 and 2012 state that 1 544 people were killed in farm attacks, an average of about 70 a year or one every 5.2 days. A report by trade union Solidarity, issued in 2012, found that 88 farmers were murdered in the 2006 to 2007 financial year.

So was Hofmeyr correct in claiming that "a white farmer is slaughtered every five days"?

According to a 2003 police committee of inquiry into farm attacks, cited by Solidarity, 38.4% of farm attack victims were described as being black, coloured or Asian. Tausa's figures suggest that 208 (or 13.5%) of those murdered in farm attacks between 1990 and 2012 were black.

Hofmeyr's statement that a white farmer is murdered every five days is therefore also incorrect. The claim would only be true if he included all farm attack victims of all races.

Conclusion
Hofmeyr's claims are incorrect and grossly exaggerated the level of killings.

South Africa certainly has one of the highest crime rates in the world and one that is characterised by a particularly high rate of violent crime. This is not an area where degrees of comparison offer any form of comfort. South Africans are affected daily by crime.

South Africa remains gripped by its fear of crime. In the 2012 Victims of Crime Survey, about 35% of households believed that crime had increased since the previous period.

Public figures like Hofmeyr, who disseminate grossly misleading information about crime patterns, only serve to contribute to this underlying fear. In addition, such misinformation creates or entrenches existing racial divisions and perpetuates an unfounded fear and hatred of other races.

On 1 July Steve Hofmeyr issued a written response to both this report and an article confirming Africa Check's findings, which was published by Rapport in June.

The numerous claims Hofmeyr made and the "statistics" he presented do not add up. Since it was published, his post has had to be updated several times, removing, among other things, data that he claimed related to South Africa which actually came from another continent (and was also misconstrued).

Hofmeyr's strongest argument boiled down to this: "Far more than facts, it is people's emotions and experiences that matter … So 'our people die like flies' is still applicable, emotionally – and does not need to be supported by facts."

Africa Check understands that perceptions do of course matter. As stated in our report, South Africa has one of the highest crime rates in the world and all murders are to be abhorred. Crime data, like all data everywhere, could and should be improved. This is something Africa Check is campaigning for. However, this is not a reason to dismiss inconvenient facts as Mr Hofmeyr does.

The sooner we all understand the reality of crime as it affects all individuals, the better that those living in South Africa will be able to engage with, participate in or lobby for initiatives aimed at addressing the very real problems that do exist, and that affect individuals from every community. Crime touches all of us, irrespective of race.
post #107 of 144

I think those debating to what degree Mandela was a terrorist or not are overlooking the greater picture:

 

The perpetrators of Apartheid decided to  use their position of power to oppress and inflict state sanctioned terror upon the majority of the South African population.

 

Mandela, having reached his position of power, was in a position to inflict terror upon those who had been the oppressors.  Yet he chose to use his power to try and bring all within South Africa closer together, to live together for the common good.

 

This by itself makes him the better man and to be respected.

post #108 of 144
Nice ad, Apple.
post #109 of 144

Hey, Mods, not trying to tell you how to do your job, but it seems to me that pretty much everything that could be said has been said here.  Might not be the worst idea in the world to close the thread at this point.

 

Just an idea.

post #110 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronJ View Post

Hey, Mods, not trying to tell you how to do your job, but it seems to me that pretty much everything that could be said has been said here.  Might not be the worst idea in the world to close the thread at this point.

Just an idea.

Just one million more google ads to serve...

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post #111 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post

that's interesting as Czechoslovakia no longer exists.
So Gabberattack is more than 20 years old (very likely most other posters here are also).
Why is that "interesting"?
post #112 of 144
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post
So Gabberattack is more than 20 years old (very likely most other posters here are also).
Why is that "interesting"?

 

Carrying on with our tangential pedantry,

 

Gabberattack used the present tense, I am from Czechoslovakia, not I was born in Czechoslovakia.

 

It made me wonder because, as you've pointed out, despite Czechoslovakia not existing for the past 21 years, there are people who still think it exists.

 

It just seemed odd relating your current position to what was past.

It's like a Kazakh stating I am from the Soviet Union.

 

You can take that statement one stage further by declaring Gabberattack is from the Austro-Hungarian empire, which will be as odd.

 

Nevertheless, given the context, we can give the benefit of the doubt that Gabberattack was underlining their experience of communism in Czechoslovakia.

 

Going on another tangent, I met somebody who's family lived in one area for generations.

His grandfather was in the Austro-Hungarian army, his father was in the Italian army, he was in the Yugoslav army and his son currently serves in the Croatian army.  It underlines just how the political map  in that region changed so much so quickly.

post #113 of 144
The worst part is now Nelson Mandela won't be in a Fast & Furious sequel.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

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post #114 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

The worst part is now Nelson Mandela won't be in a Fast & Furious sequel.

No that's not that guy, it's the old black guy from the Clint Eastwood movies, sheesh.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
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post #115 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

No that's not that guy, it's the old black guy from the Clint Eastwood movies, sheesh.

Wasn't Nelson Mandela in jail? If so, I'm pretty sure I'm thinking of the right person. He wrote that compelling story about the struggles of his fellow inmate Andy Dufresne.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #116 of 144

Some people are so stuck up that they can't accept a person can change... And 27 years in jail can definitely change a person by a hugeeeee margin... He was a rash person maybe... But, in the end he did do a helluva lot more good than the bad he ever did....!!! The detractors (read morons) should understand that...

post #117 of 144

This is yet another bad decision taken by Apple.

 

Apple should stay out of politics.

post #118 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post
 

 

Carrying on with our tangential pedantry,

 

Gabberattack used the present tense, I am from Czechoslovakia, not I was born in Czechoslovakia.

 

It made me wonder because, as you've pointed out, despite Czechoslovakia not existing for the past 21 years, there are people who still think it exists.

 

It just seemed odd relating your current position to what was past.

It's like a Kazakh stating I am from the Soviet Union.

 

You can take that statement one stage further by declaring Gabberattack is from the Austro-Hungarian empire, which will be as odd.

 

Nevertheless, given the context, we can give the benefit of the doubt that Gabberattack was underlining their experience of communism in Czechoslovakia.

 

Going on another tangent, I met somebody who's family lived in one area for generations.

His grandfather was in the Austro-Hungarian army, his father was in the Italian army, he was in the Yugoslav army and his son currently serves in the Croatian army.  It underlines just how the political map  in that region changed so much so quickly.

Man, everyone knows Czechoslovakia was a communist country, when the country split the commies were 3 years gone. How is it important to the topic of the discussion which part of the country I am from if the communist regime was in Czechoslovakia and not in Czech republic or Slovakia?

Marquiz d' Gabber von Gabberaarde

... and Windows Vista...
... fails on the Moon...
... 6x slower!
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Marquiz d' Gabber von Gabberaarde

... and Windows Vista...
... fails on the Moon...
... 6x slower!
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post #119 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

The worst part is now Nelson Mandela won't be in a Fast & Furious sequel.

 

We'll always have Paul Walker... oh, wait...

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #120 of 144
Originally Posted by gabberattack View Post
Man, everyone knows Czechoslovakia was a communist country, when the country split the commies were 3 years gone. How is it important to the topic of the discussion which part of the country I am from if the communist regime was in Czechoslovakia and not in Czech republic or Slovakia?

 

I wasn't debating whether Czechoslovakia was a communist country, please read my posts carefully again.

 

Another point to consider is that adults who are now in their late thirties would have only experienced as adults the final days of the communist regime.

 

It is only those in their late forties or older who can narrate what their direct experience, as adults, of several years of the communist system.

 

As for your second question, it is very relevant when you look back to the events of 1948 and how people view how the communists to power in the first place.

 

In any case, it's not relevant to the main topic.

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