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AT&T CEO says smartphone subsidies must end as T-Mobile sweetens iPhone deal - Page 2

post #41 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Why do you assume it'd be cheaper?

I don't. I assume it would be better overall.

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GOA

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post #42 of 97
They want subsidies to end, but they won't really cut their rates for people who bring their own equipment. Right now they make a huge amount of money by selling subsidized and then when the contract ends, they get to keep the amount that previously went to paying off the phone. Their only goal is to charge customers more one way or another. Plus carriers insist on locking phones and refuse to allow you to bring your own. Verizon will only allow you to have a phone if you buy it from them or from the Apple store. You cannot bring your own phone.
post #43 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I don't. I assume it would be better overall.

Fair point but what makes you think it'd be better? Could Apple build a better network or would it be the same type of service or will you think it's better because it's Apple? Kinda like a 'placebo effect'.
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post #44 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by old-wiz View Post

Verizon will only allow you to have a phone if you buy it from them or from the Apple store. You cannot bring your own phone.

That's not true at all. People buy pre-owned Verizon phones all the time. Phones can be purchased from Amazon, and recently directly from Motorola and then activated with VZW. It's still short from T-Mobile and AT&T but it's not as bad as you make it out to seem.
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post #45 of 97
Originally Posted by Mike Snoow View Post
I would rather for for nexus 5 which has everything a top of the line phone should have.

 

Except a decent OS and usable screen.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #46 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Except a decent OS and usable screen.

 

I think that post is a SPAM post. It makes no sense at all and doesn't have anything do with the conversation with this article. 

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post #47 of 97
The sooner consumers are forced to buy a smartphone and know real pricing, the sooner they will realize iPhone's are overpriced. The amount they charge for more memory on them is ridiculous. How can Apple actually justify charging $849 for 64GB 5s?

they are really worth allot less than the price. these phones are high margin. Especially the ones with more ram.

Pointing to AT&T, it is ridiculous for him to say they can't afford to sell phones bundled with their plans. they probably found it more profitable to do it otherwise. and T-Mobile has been handily beating them for new consumers.

Also AT&T is back to monopoly status. with $32.3 Billion in revenues in 3rd quarter 2013 alone. Their wireless margin of profit runs 30-42% depending on the accounting method.

Yes, AT&T overcharges and is swimming in cash. Nuts.

http://www.att.com/gen/press-room?pid=24925&cdvn=news&newsarticleid=37119&mapcode=corporate|financial
post #48 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by old-wiz View Post

They want subsidies to end, but they won't really cut their rates for people who bring their own equipment. Right now they make a huge amount of money by selling subsidized and then when the contract ends, they get to keep the amount that previously went to paying off the phone. Their only goal is to charge customers more one way or another. Plus carriers insist on locking phones and refuse to allow you to bring your own. Verizon will only allow you to have a phone if you buy it from them or from the Apple store. You cannot bring your own phone.

 

'Their only goal is to charge customers more one way or another'  

 

But that's what we all want, right?  (Sorry couldn't resist the SJ quote)

 

You are right though.  They are a business and their goal is to make money.  The market demographic has changed.  A little over 5 years ago the majority of people didn't have smart phones and there was a huge sea of people flocking to them that needed networks.  It made a lot of sense for carriers to say "Join my network and I'll give you this super fancy phone for cheap or free even!"   Once one did it, they all had to or they wouldn't get customers. 

 

The demographic has changed.  The market isn't growing like crazy, and most people that want a smartphone already have one.   They are not going to stop being smartphone users because the carrier stops dangling a "free" phone in front of them.

 

Verizon is still subsidizing so the market should speak.  It may be that Apple and high end Samsung users flock to Verizon since AT&T stopped giving expensive phones away for cheap.  Verizon will have to increase its rates to support the subsidies.  The users that don't use the fancy phones are more likely to flee Verizon for T-mobiles and AT&T's less expensive options.

 

The change makes good business sense for AT&T as long as subscribers don't leave because of it.  AT&T doesn't have to offer their services cheaply unfortunately, they just have to be slightly cheaper than the limited competition in the carrier field.

post #49 of 97
Originally Posted by mitchelljd View Post
iPhones are overpriced.

 

Stop using words when you don’t know what they mean.

 
The amount they charge for more memory on them is ridiculous. How can Apple actually justify charging $849 for 64GB 5s?

 

The vast majority of consumers feels that this is fair pricing. VAST majority. They justify it because people pay it and WANT to pay it. 

 
they are really worth allot less than the price.

 

No, you’re utterly wrong.

 
Also AT&T is back to monopoly status. with $32.3 Billion in revenues in 3rd quarter 2013 alone. Their wireless margin of profit runs 30-42% depending on the accounting method.

 

Money = monopoly? Profit = monopoly?

 
Yes, AT&T overcharges…

 

Finally something on which we can agree.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #50 of 97

I can see how this would hurt Apple, but t's hard to see how this would benefit AT&T. They would certainly make less money off of people like me--I'm grandfathered into the unlimited data plan, and have kept it even though I don't typically use all that much data, and I also don't get a new phone as soon as I qualify. If they forced me to get a pay-as-you-go plan, I would definitely pay less, since the unlimited plan costs more than the current offerings. If I wait until the next release to replace my 4S, I'll pay AT&T for a year of subsidy, without receiving that subsidy (and I've already started to do that as of October). If they stop subsidizing handsets they will have to drop their prices to compete with T-Mobile, but this would force the apples-to-apples comparisons that T-Mobile is probably hoping for. 

post #51 of 97

of course it would be better but with as we know with any technology

take the digital camera or the LCD tv prices always fall even when the technology gets better

of course u have 4k Tvs  which cost shitload but most ppl wont buy into them until they become cheaper 

of course there will be curves phones which will cost alot more but they will be niche.

its great for consumers the get great tech for cheap

post #52 of 97

Phone subsidies are the carrot that carriers used to get people to sign 2 year contracts.  The advantage of the 2 year contract is that it makes it more difficult to jump ship to another carrier.  Without any subsidies, there is little reason to sign a contract, and carriers will see far more churn when that happens.  The cost of signing up a new customer is far greater than the cost of maintaining a customer.

 

Since the majority of people actually do switch devices every couple years, the net result to the carrier is going to be minimal change.  However, it's easier to market your calling plans as cheaper, with a monthly phone price tacked on, making the subsidy completely transparent.  However, the carrier will now lose the bonus profit for those that don't upgrade immediately when they are eligible, as their bill will then decrease.

 

Higher end phone manufacturers will lose out, as the cost of the phone is now more apparent, and people will be less likely to want to pay that amount for the phone.  When it's buried into the cost of the plan, people will gravitate towards higher end devices.

 

With this change, you'll see a race towards cheaper phones, which does not generally equate to a better product.

post #53 of 97

People that aren't happy with AT&T or any other carrier stop moaning and change carriers. There are 4 major and dozens more pre-paid options to choose from from at every price under the sun. My best friend recently switched from AT&T to Ting and is saving around $45 a month over what he used to pay. He is using an iPhone 4s on Ting by the way. So there are choices out there so vote with your wallet and not with comments on a forum AT&T will never read if you are unhappy. 

post #54 of 97

Even if they go this route- AT&T direct service is still expensive.  What about the breakup roaming deal with T-Mobile?  Do you basically get the AT&T network for free with T-Mobile?  T

post #55 of 97

Fuk AT&T

 

I got T-mobile.  Unlimited everything for $120 for 2.  Plus I live in a 4G-LTE city so its fast

post #56 of 97
AT&T pricing included the 'subsidy' for the handset. THEY aren't paying for it. They're selling it to you over 18~24 months. The cost of the handset was built into the rates.

The scam was, they continued charging exactly the same monthly fee to you, even if they are NOT 'subsidizing' the handset (you bring your own or your handset is 'paid off').

Now what he's essentially saying, based on his "we could have made more money" comment, is that they're going to charge roughly the same (or more) for the same services AND tack the "payments" for the hardware on top?

Basically, pay more for less, and ensure even higher profits for AT&T, the NSA's #1 fan and partner in mobile surveillance in the US?

I was an AT&T customer once. I will never, EVER repeat that mistake. They are the very definition of a nickel-and-dime-you-to-death, rip-off corporation.


Although probably not a lot better, I pay T-Mobile a $60 a month flat fee, and get all the service I need. Unlimited talk and text, 2.5GB of 4G/LTE data, tethering (I've used it with both my iPad and MacBook, and it works great. They just share the data plan basically), no 'hidden/add-on' fees. Data overage throttles to 3G. I haven't gone over yet though.

The connectivity has been pretty solid so far, so I'm sticking with them for now.
post #57 of 97

i only pay 40 a month tax included with everything unlimited but slower speed  after 1GB  most ppl on contracts pay 100+.

it good to have gsm phone and a google voice number then u can change monthly until u r satisfied and u know the price is only going down.

I am so glad tmo didnt merge with att more competition is great for consumers.

and now u can get top of the line unlocked phone for only 350 from google.  google  is forcing the prices lower coz it doesnt depend on sales for its profit i am sure some companies must be pretty mad about that

post #58 of 97

AT&T is the Microsoft of cell carriers.

 

Couldn't be happier with T-Mobile.

post #59 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

Now what he's essentially saying, based on his "we could have made more money" comment, is that they're going to charge roughly the same (or more) for the same services AND tack the "payments" for the hardware on top?

 

Ah, no. Did you see this from another article? "Wireless customers who bring their own device, buy a handset without a subsidy, or have their current contract expire will see their monthly data share bill drop by an average of $15 per month, AT&T announced on Thursday."

 

They're dropping current prices, then adding a 24-month payment plan on top for subsidized phones.

 

Obviously the scheme is a win for AT&T, but it's not the total ripoff you make it out to be.

post #60 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I wish Apple offered their own wireless service. I'd dump AT'n'T in a California minute.

 

I did. I'd been living abroad the past couple of years, and went with T-mobile when I got back this time around. I bought my own handset from the Apple Store, and signed on to T-mobile's $60 a month tier.

 

$60. That's the price, that's what I pay. Period. Not like AT&T's so-called $60 a month service, which is just a $60 *base price*, PLUS $3 more for this, and $5 more for that, and oh, $18 more for fees, taxes, and by the time you're done you're actually paying something like $90 for that "$60 tier" (which includes a pathetic amount of data, so you're almost guaranteed to pay overages or upgrade to a more expensive tier). Most people I know are paying $120 to $150 to AT&T for their iPhone service, and not really getting a whole lot more from it than I do for $60 at T-mobile.

 

I did the math as well. I bought a 64GB iPhone 5s up front for $850. I'll probably use it for 3 years (my previous two iPhones lasted at least that long), and then flip it to a new model. Based on history, I'll get about $200 back for my current handset (5s) on resale.  So my actual cost is more like $80 a month factoring in the cost of the handset.  ($60 for service + about $20/month for the handset over 3 years). Beats the $120 a month I was paying to AT&T for less service/data previously. A 33% savings!

 

That's just part of why I say screw 'em. I'm never going back.
post #61 of 97
This is targeted at Apple, plain and simple.

Despite what Tallest says, it is stupid what Apple charges when you want a phone with more flash memory. There is no way in the sane world Apple can justify its prices, except that they can get away with it. That people still don't have a choice - if they want iPhone, they pay Apple's prices, whether they like it or not.

I have wondered for long, why so many people have a totally unreasonable hatred towards Apple - and I think it is because the company makes extremely desirable products, which you really want to buy, but then sets prices that are very high - carrying huge profit margins. Some people buy the phone still, but there are a lot of people that ultimately don't buy it, because they just can't afford it. A lot of these people are frustrated - because the same appeal and image Apple products have, is denied to them, just because they cannot or will not pay Apple's bloated prices.

It is natural for these Apple to have a hatred towards Apple and to hope for Apple to fail. A lot of people will be thrilled if Apple makes a mistake, and falls flat on its face.

To a large extent, Apple is to blame for this. The prices they set, and the margins they expect are without doubt on the higher side.

It is this bad karma that is accumulating as millions of people who hate Apple, and are just waiting for other technologies to become realistic alternatives. Once Android reaches that place, Apple will struggle - and that's the reason for Apple's aggression in the courts against Android.
post #62 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
 

AT&T is the Microsoft of cell carriers.

 

Couldn't be happier with T-Mobile.

I agree. I was with AT&T before and switched to Sprint and also couldn't be happier with the service and especially my bill. Unlimited LTE not to mention unlimited texts and calls for $50 a month is fantastic. 

post #63 of 97
Originally Posted by macarena View Post
Despite what Tallest says

 

No, it’s what surveys say.

 
There is no way in the sane world Apple can justify its prices, except that they can get away with it. 

 

That and, again, people feel the prices are accurate.

 
I have wondered for long, why so many people have a totally unreasonable hatred towards Apple - and I think it is because the company makes extremely desirable products, which you really want to buy, but then sets prices that are very high - carrying huge profit margins.

 

NO. THINGS THAT ARE GOOD COST MORE THAN THINGS THAT ARE BAD?!

 
Some people buy the phone still, but there are a lot of people that ultimately don't buy it, because they just can't afford it.


Not the phone, the plans.

 
It is this bad karma that is accumulating as millions of people who hate Apple, and are just waiting for other technologies to become realistic alternatives. Once Android reaches that place, Apple will struggle - and that's the reason for Apple's aggression in the courts against Android.

 

None of this is anywhere near true.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #64 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmlco View Post
 

 

Ah, no. Did you see this from another article? "Wireless customers who bring their own device, buy a handset without a subsidy, or have their current contract expire will see their monthly data share bill drop by an average of $15 per month, AT&T announced on Thursday."

 

They're dropping current prices, then adding a 24-month payment plan on top for subsidized phones.

 

Obviously the scheme is a win for AT&T, but it's not the total ripoff you make it out to be.

 

Read the fine print. It isn't an across the board price drop. It's VERY specific to "DATA SHARE" prices only. 

 

And it isn't a "$15 price drop". They're saying those will decrease "ON AVERAGE" by $15 a month. There's a HUGE difference between those two concepts. "$15 off" is not the same as "an average $15 savings". You get that?

 

 

So for me, it's a non-starter. Please... I don't 'share' my data with anyone, except my own devices. So I'm not getting any discounts. Oh wait... But, with AT&T if I want to "share" my data plan with my own laptop or iPad via 'tethering" then I have to pay more *for each device* monthly. I see... and so NOW if I own that device outright, I will pay something less on average for each additional device than before?  

 

It was (and still is) a rip-off to begin with!!

 

My t-mobile service gives me unlimited talk/text, and 2.5GB of 4G/LTE a month (which throttles to 3G after that). I can tether my laptop or iPad as I like (it does count against the base data limit however). $60. Period. 

 

I think I prefer that.

 

Sorry to come off sounding like a t-mobile advertisement. I'm comparing from experience, and have been super happy with my decision to go with the service they're offering.

post #65 of 97
There are many reason people choose to upgrade and/or switch carriers or phones; lost/stolen/broken phone, poor service on a particular network, monthly fees and plans, as well as just want the newest/fastest/coolest model.

EVERYONE though agrees the phone companies are making plenty of profits and shouldn't be crying about subsidies. AT&T reported $3.8 BILLION and Verizon had $2.23 BILLION in the 3rd Quarter.

And this is why I just switch from Verizon to Credo Mobile. I got a 32GB 5s for $50 less than either Verison or AT&T's subsidized phones, 25% off the UNLIMITED Data Plan, and Credo pays my early termination fee with Verizon.
post #66 of 97

Others have mentioned T-mobile and it is clear they are doing some serious damage out there with the Uncarrier initiative.

 

Smartphones are pretty near saturation levels. Part of the reason things need to change is that even if someone has a subsidy line available for a new phone when discussing kids and phones, they will often take it for themselves or leave it unused while letting the child use an older phone because kids are a bit theft and drop prone. My children both have the iPhone 4. The wife the 4s and I'm on the 5. Everyone gets a little something when I decide to upgrade.

 

There are also now little mini industries around the upkeep and repair of iPhones as another point to ponder. The wife got her phone wet this summer. A new battery and charge port and we were good to go for much less than a new phone.

 

That said I recently added my sister to our plan. She knew what she wanted to spend and went into Best Buy and plunked down $50 for a "flat screen" Android phone. That was the full price which is pretty astonishing. I have no doubt that Apple is a better solution and a better phone. I'm not sure they are 1100% better though. I think at some point Apple should be able to still maintain their profit margins with a less expensive phone than the 5C.

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post #67 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I wish Apple offered their own wireless service. I'd dump AT'n'T in a California minute.

Yeah, that'll be a change of wireless landscape.  Apple should also tie all idevices to their own wireless service.  All others will get androids only.  Really something for Apple to think about.

post #68 of 97

T-Mobile seems to be a good bet.  The merger breakup in addition to cash gave them a sweet roaming deal on AT&T.  T-Mobile has also gotten super aggressive with their resellers.  35orless has LIVE Plan it's a real game changer

post #69 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

The vast majority of consumers feels that this is fair pricing. VAST majority. They justify it because people pay it and WANT to pay it. 

 

 

Then why is that VAST majority who feel that $850 is a fair price for an iPhone (as long as they only have to pay $199 of it) here complaining that they might actually have to pay $850 for it?  They don't "pay it and WANT to pay it."  They don't pay it and WANT AT&T to pay it for them. 

post #70 of 97
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

Then why is that VAST majority who feel that $850 is a fair price for an iPhone (as long as they only have to pay $199 of it) here complaining that they might actually have to pay $850 for it?

 

I see two people. Three if you think this.

 

Show me YOUR survey, then.

 
They don't "pay it and WANT to pay it." They don't pay it and WANT AT&T to pay it for them. 

 

Except for, you know, the extra $100 that THEY THEMSELVES ARE PAYING, which is the entire point here.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #71 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Except for, you know, the extra $100 that THEY THEMSELVES ARE PAYING, which is the entire point here.

 

You have a point in that people are in fact paying to buy iPhones. Frood, however, does have a point, in that while many people are buying phones with upgrades, many (including me) think Apple is overcharging for storage. That doesn't stop us from buying, but it doesn't make us all that happy with Apple, either.

 

Apple should drop the upgrade price, because $100-$200 over the base price of the phone is more than a little ridiculous. You can buy a name brand 64GB SD card, retail, for $40. iSuppil states that the incremental cost of the additional NAND flash memory to Apple is only $9.60 for the additional 16GBytes of memory and $19.20 for an additional 32GBytes of memory, which means that Apple pockets an additional $90 to $178 for every upgraded phone sold.

 

The same goes for adding a cellular chip to the iPad. $130? No. Part cost is roughly $34.00, so Apple margin's there is only 75% or so, as opposed to it's 91% profit margin on a 64GB iPhone upgrade. 

post #72 of 97

These "subsidies" seem like nothing more than 2-year financing plans for $700 devices. Are carriers actually losing money overall?

post #73 of 97
Originally Posted by ahmlco View Post

many (including me) think Apple is overcharging for storage.

 

Your many isn’t as many as the actual many, however.

 
 You can buy a name brand 64GB SD card, retail, for $40. iSuppil states that the incremental cost of the additional NAND flash memory to Apple is only $9.60 for the additional 16GBytes of memory and $19.20 for an additional 32GBytes of memory, which means that Apple pockets an additional $90 to $178 for every upgraded phone sold.

 

Because as we all know, SD cards are exactly the same as internal soldered NAND.

 
The same goes for adding a cellular chip to the iPad. $130? No. Part cost is roughly $34.00, so Apple margin's there is only 75% or so

 

Right, because the ONLY cost of a part is the physical metal and plastic that comprise it. No other cost has ever, EVER been effected on any piece of hardware. It only costs what the components cost and every company that charges more than that exact amount is pocketing all that money.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #74 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post
 

These "subsidies" seem like nothing more than 2-year financing plans for $700 devices. Are carriers actually losing money overall?

If I remember correctly most carriers tend to recoup their subsidy from anywhere around month 15 to month 19 depending on the carrier, your particular plan and also any discounts you might receive. Sprint offers you a new phone 20 months into your contract so we can be sure they have recouped their cost prior to 20 months. Verizon and AT&T I believe both went to 24 months before offering an upgrade but maybe people with those 2 carriers can confirm that since I am not sure.  

 

Carriers want you to upgrade because when you do you are also renewing your 2 year contract. They have very reason in the world to try and keep you on contract as opposed to off since that makes churn less likely. This is why there is a lot of resistance to lowering plan prices once your phone is paid off or even if you bring your own device. Without a contract they have no hold on you and they don't like giving up their leverage. 

post #75 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post


That's the way Europe works. And it's not good news for Apple unless there is a significant price reduction.
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post #76 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Others have mentioned T-mobile and it is clear they are doing some serious damage out there with the Uncarrier initiative.

Smartphones are pretty near saturation levels. Part of the reason things need to change is that even if someone has a subsidy line available for a new phone when discussing kids and phones, they will often take it for themselves or leave it unused while letting the child use an older phone because kids are a bit theft and drop prone. My children both have the iPhone 4. The wife the 4s and I'm on the 5. Everyone gets a little something when I decide to upgrade.

There are also now little mini industries around the upkeep and repair of iPhones as another point to ponder. The wife got her phone wet this summer. A new battery and charge port and we were good to go for much less than a new phone.

That said I recently added my sister to our plan. She knew what she wanted to spend and went into Best Buy and plunked down $50 for a "flat screen" Android phone. That was the full price which is pretty astonishing. I have no doubt that Apple is a better solution and a better phone. I'm not sure they are 1100% better though. I think at some point Apple should be able to still maintain their profit margins with a less expensive phone than the 5C.

Yes. Similarly my sister and I are discussing a smart phone for our mother this Christmas. She just needs to be able to skype or send pictures ( not mms). She has an iPad - from me - and the obvious solution is an iPhone where all her stuff will be synced and her (iCloud) email will just work.

However the 5c is 500 plus euro off contract. and looks like a teenagers toy. So she's getting an Android or Windows phone.
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post #77 of 97
So AT&T is charging 3 times as much on everything and saying that it does not satisfy.


If they remove subsidies then there monthly charge should be about $50, not triple digits higher than there is,


They could half the price and still have profits!!!
post #78 of 97
I noticed recently that CREDO (or is it CREEDO?) now carries the iPhone. They are some kind of socially responsible (whatever that means) group that sells mobile phone plans. I'm so disgusted with at and t that I'm going to look more closely at these guys.
post #79 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post

These "subsidies" seem like nothing more than 2-year financing plans for $700 devices. Are carriers actually losing money overall?

Initially yes, overall no.
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post #80 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Hannah View Post

So AT&T is charging 3 times as much on everything and saying that it does not satisfy.


If they remove subsidies then there monthly charge should be about $50, not triple digits higher than there is,


They could half the price and still have profits!!!

So could Apple. Don't compare rates that a piggybacking MVNO can offer with AT&T and VZW, they have very little overhead, and do nothing to build or maintain the network. Imagine a law forcing Apple to sell iPhones to another company below what it costs them and they being able to sell those iPhones to the same customers at a much cheaper rate. That's what happened in the telecom industry and how CLECs and MVNOs were born.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
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  • AT&T CEO says smartphone subsidies must end as T-Mobile sweetens iPhone deal
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