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Rumor: LG hopes to catch up to Apple with fingerprint sensor in next-gen Android phone - Page 3

post #81 of 114
No need in describing the water to someone who's already drowning (not you Mechanic, obviously), but I appreciate your thorough response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

The original ARM architecture made all instructions conditional, which had a huge impact on the instruction space. The number of conditional instructions is far more limited in ARMv8/A64.

Wouldn't that be ARMv7 here?
post #82 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Wouldn't that be ARMv7 here?

Apple's A7 uses ARMv8.

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post #83 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

Wouldn't that be ARMv7 here?

Apple's A7 uses ARMv8.

That I know, I didn't know that "The number of conditional instructions is far more limited in ARMv8/A64."
post #84 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

No, I made no comment as to that. Try again without putting words in others’ mouths.

Yes you have, you said my comment about the address bus was incorrect and then when I proved you wrong you asked "well why does the 64 bit compiled apps show an increase of up to 25%?"

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


No, no you didn't. You discredited everything that comes with AArch64 and made sweeping ignorant generalizations and even made foolish comments about RAM capacity and CPU bitness.


PS: I checked your posts. You didn't use ISA, AArch64, or the colloquial ARM64 once in your comments.

Huh?  Why would I need to use those phrases, words when I can just say 64 bit or A7 when talking about the iphone 5s or ipad air?  What else could I possibly be talking about?  Is it really that difficult for you to realize that when talking about the A7 you are also talking about ARM64?

 

None of it was foolish. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Did you know you're incorrectly equating the number of bits with the address bus with number of bits used in other parts of the system.

Right, that is why I repeatedly pointed out that large data array software can take advantage of the 64 bit regardless of the address bus.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post
 

yes he has.  He overlooks that AArch64 doubled the number of registers over 32bit ARM. 32-bit ARM provides 16 integer registers, of which one is a dedicated program counter, two more are give over to a stack pointer and link register, and the other 13 are available for general use.  With AArch 64 there are 32 integer registers, with a dedicated zero register, dedicated link register and dedicated frame pointer register. One further register is dedicated to the platform leaving 28 general purpose registers. 

AArch 64 also increases the number of floating point registers as well.  AArch 32 has 32 32 bit floating point registers. Which can overlap into various sized of floating points as needed.  AArch 64 simplifies this and has 32 128 bit floating point registers that can be used for smaller amounts of data, but are dedicated and do not overlap which is a big performance win. With AArch 64 Physical RAM address size is decouple from CPU fitness.Data Bus size the amount of data fetched from RAM is likewise decoupled.  A CPU instruction may request a certain size of data but the amount can be independentlycontrolled by either fetching in smaller amounts or fetching more than is necessary.Also a  revised and streamlined the instruction set for a big performance gain.  Also apple took advantage of AArch64 in a big way with an inline retain count, which eliminates the need to perform costly hash table lookup for retain and release operations in the common case.  Those operations  are very common in most Objective-C code and is a big performance win. Per-object resource cleanup flags make object deallocation a lot faster.  The cost of creating and destroying an object is now roughly cut in half by AArch64.  Tagged pointers also make for a nice performance win as well as reducing memory usage.

These are just some of the performance increases that have made huge differences in the A7.   But hey think what you want.   The proof is in the testing and the A7 is clearly the fastest mobile processor on the market.  

Right....That is why I keep referring to large data array software that would benefit from those increase in registers.

post #85 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

That I know, I didn't know that "The number of conditional instructions is far more limited in ARMv8/A64."

This limitation is a good thing. It's basically tightening up the instruction set to make it more efficient.

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post #86 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

How is everyone doing with Touch ID? Mine is quite flaky, working about 20% of the time. 

Mine’s not flaky at all. It always unlocks in milliseconds, whether from powered off or the lock screen. it’s barely delayed enough to notice there’s a ‘process’ going on other than powering up the home screen…

I redid my finger scans a couple of times, after paying more attention to what parts of my fingertips are contacting the button when I reach for it without thinking about it. The first time I scanned I treated the process more like “getting my fingerprints taken”. The second time, less so, but I noticed I was still not completely matching the way I naturally touched the button (depending on the finger).

The third time, I scanned all my fingers more accurately using the positions I use when I ‘mindlessly’ reach for the phone. Now, it fires up instantly every time. I no longer frequently get the “Try Again” wiggling message. Maybe once in a hundred or so unlocks?

I scanned four fingers. My left and right thumbs, and L/R index fingers. The fifth I reserved in case I need a second scan of the one I use most (or a stiff drink :P), but so far, all is well…

I would suggest you rescan, making sure you focus on the fingertip areas that naturally tap the button when you unlock it...
post #87 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


To requote what has been quoted for months now since someone in this thread can't be bothered to do any research before posting...
 
"Apple isn’t very focused on delivering a larger memory address space today however. As A64 is a brand new ISA, there are other benefits that come along with the move. Similar to the x86-64 transition, the move to A64 comes with an increase in the number of general purpose registers. ARMv7 had 15 general purpose registers (and 1 register for the program counter), while ARMv8/A64 now has 31 that are each 64-bits wide. All 31 registers are accessible at all times. Increasing the number of architectural registers decreases register pressure and can directly impact performance. The doubling of the register space with x86-64 was responsible for up to a 10% increase in performance.

The original ARM architecture made all instructions conditional, which had a huge impact on the instruction space. The number of conditional instructions is far more limited in ARMv8/A64.

The move to ARMv8 also doubles the number of FP/NEON registers (from 16 to 32) as well as widens all of them registers to 128-bits (up from 64-bits). Support for 128-bit registers can go a long way in improving SIMD performance. Whereas simply doubling register count can provide moderate increases in performance, doubling the size of each register can be far more significant given the right workload. There are also new advanced SIMD instructions that are a part of ARMv8. Double precision SIMD FP math is now supported among other things.

ARMv8 also adds some new cryptographic instructions for hardware acceleration of AES and SHA1/SHA256 algorithms. These hardware AES/SHA instructions have the potential for huge increases in performance, just like we saw with the introduction of AES-NI on Intel CPUs a few years back. Both the new advanced SIMD instructions and AES/SHA instructions are really designed to enable a new wave of iOS apps."
 

and…
 
"It's also important to point out the things that "64-bit" does not refer to, as there's a lot of confusion in this area as well. In particular, "64-bit" does not include:

Physical RAM address size. The number of bits used to actually talk to RAM (and therefore the amount of RAM the hardware can support) is decoupled from the question of CPU bitness. ARM CPUs have ranged from 26 bits to 40 bits, and this can be changed independently from the rest.
Data bus size. The amount of data fetched from RAM or cache is likewise decoupled. Individual CPU instructions may request a certain amount of data, but the amount of data actually fetched can be independent, either by splitting the fetch into smaller parts, or fetching more than is necessary. The iPhone 5 already fetches data from memory in 64-bit chunks, and chunk sizes of up to 192 bits exist in the PC world.
Anything related to floating-point. FPU register size and internal design is independent, and ARM CPUs have had 64-bit FPU registers since well before ARM64.

[…]

Adding it all together, it's a pretty big win. My casual benchmarking indicates that basic object creation and destruction takes about 380ns on a 5S running in 32-bit mode, while it's only about 200ns when running in 64-bit mode. If any instance of the class has ever had a weak reference and an associated object set, the 32-bit time rises to about 480ns, while the 64-bit time remains around 200ns for any instances that were not themselves the target.

In short, the improvements to Apple's runtime make it so that object allocation in 64-bit mode costs only 40-50% of what it does in 32-bit mode. If your app creates and destroys a lot of objects, that's a big deal.

[…]

Apple took advantage of the transition to make some changes of their own. The biggest change is an inline retain count, which eliminates the need to perform a costly hash table lookup for retain and release operations in the common case. Since those operations are so common in most Objective-C code, this is a big win. Per-object resource cleanup flags make object deallocation quite a bit faster in certain cases. All in all, the cost of creating and destroying an object is roughly cut in half. Tagged pointers also make for a nice performance win as well as reduced memory use.

ARM64 is a welcome addition to Apple's hardware. We all knew it would happen eventually, but few expected it this soon. It's here now, and it's great."
 

Note that AnandTech shows an improvement in AES by 825% (must access link to see results) simply by running as 64-bit. How exactly not a benefit? As I've stated before I think it's worth considering that Touch ID wouldn't be possible without A64's improved crypto and phenomenal AES and SHA speed performance.

 

 

So in other words large data array software is what gets the most benefit out of it, which is what I have been saying the entire time.  I have been saying the entire time that software such as encryption(hey look AES), encoding, video editing software, etc.  would see an actual benefit.

 

Sadly such software is not the primary software the every day user uses on an iphone 5s or ipad for the majority of the time they use the device.  Things like an Internet browser which is the most widely and most commonly used software don't really benefit from a 64 bit transition.

 

Unless you can show that the iphone 5s and ipad air are going to primarily running or being used for large data array software the majority of the time the user is interacting with the device the performance increase is negligible.

post #88 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noliving View Post

So in other words large data array software is what gets the most benefit out of it, which is what I have been saying the entire time.  I have been saying the entire time that software such as encryption(hey look AES), encoding, video editing software, etc.  would see an actual benefit.

Sadly such software is not the primary software the every day user uses on an iphone 5s or ipad for the majority of the time they use the device.  Things like an Internet browser which is the most widely and most commonly used software don't really benefit from a 64 bit transition.

Unless you can show that the iphone 5s and ipad air are going to primarily running or being used for large data array software the majority of the time the user is interacting with the device the performance increase is negligible.

You wrote…

At the current moment it is because there is no software or hardware now or in the immediate future that will take advantage of the benefits 64 bit brings on a mobile device, ie have more than four GB of system RAM., the iphone 5s only has one GB.

They are only doing it because the average consumer just looks at the number and will think it is superior but when you look at the specs of the phones none of them come close to having enough system RAM for 64 bit to make any difference.



Again, your more recent decision to backpedal on your previous ignorant statement by including "large data sets" to your "only if you have more then 4GB RAM" statement has been proven false as noted by the many posters here as well as links to informed articles you have either failed to read or comprehend.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #89 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


You wrote…

At the current moment it is because there is no software or hardware now or in the immediate future that will take advantage of the benefits 64 bit brings on a mobile device, ie have more than four GB of system RAM., the iphone 5s only has one GB.

They are only doing it because the average consumer just looks at the number and will think it is superior but when you look at the specs of the phones none of them come close to having enough system RAM for 64 bit to make any difference.

Right.  Show me the large data array software that the average user of an iphone 5s device uses for a good portion of their time when interacting with the devices.  Just show me that software.  The truth of the matter is that every day user of these devices are only really going to notice a difference when the device has more than 4 GB of system RAM.

post #90 of 114
Originally Posted by Noliving View Post
you said my comment about the address bus was incorrect

 

I said that your comment that 64-bit is useless without 4+ gigabytes of RAM was incorrect.

 
…and then when I proved you wrong…

 

Which didn’t happen.

 
…you asked well why does the 64 bit compiled apps show an increase of up to 25%?

 

Thus proving wrong your statement that 64-bit is useless without 4+ gigabytes of RAM.

Originally posted by Relic

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post #91 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noliving View Post

Right.  Show me the large data array software that the average user of an iphone 5s device uses for a good portion of their time when interacting with the devices.  Just show me that software.  The truth of the matter is that every day user of these devices are only really going to notice a difference when the device has more than 4 GB of system RAM.

1) You didn't include any comments about large data arrays in the comment from you I quoted. You were very specific in your ignorance that RAM was the ONLY reason to go with 64-bit.

2) You've continually ignored the innumerable benefits to A64. Bottom line, you're wrong, you've been proven, and your hubris won't allow you do the right thing by admitting your wrong which unfortunately means you're just going to double down on your ignorance which clearly isn't working for you as noted by your comments here.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #92 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

I said that your comment that 64-bit is useless without 4+ gigabytes of RAM was incorrect.

 

Which didn’t happen.

 

Thus proving wrong your statement that 64-bit is useless without 4+ gigabytes of RAM.

This is what you quoted:

 

"64 bit address buses only real benefit is that it can address more than 4 GB of system ram"

 

You stated that statement was incorrect.  That is not incorrect.  

 

Actually it didn't prove my statement wrong because those performance increases are primarily from higher core clock speeds, faster LPDDR3 memory and quad-core PowerVR graphics chip — all independent improvements that the A7 makes.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


1) You didn't include any comments about large data arrays in the comment from you I quoted. You were very specific in your ignorance that RAM was the ONLY reason to go with 64-bit.

2) You've continually ignored the innumerable benefits to A64. Bottom line, you're wrong, you've been proven, and your hubris won't allow you do the right thing by admitting your wrong which unfortunately means you're just going to double down on your ignorance which clearly isn't working for you as noted by your comments here.

1.  From an end user perspective that doesn't use large data array software the majority of the time they interact with the device, which would be more than 90% of the user base, the only real practical benefit from 64 bit would be the 4 GB+ system ram.  That is not an incorrect statement and you know it.

 

2.  I'm not ignoring it at all, what I'm saying is that the 64 bit doesn't have the performance impact that you think it does on the software that the average user runs.  You really honestly think that the Facebook, Twitter, Safari, Walgreen, Amazon apps are going to see a noticeable improvement in their performance from solely going from 32 bit to 64 bit?  You really think that?

post #93 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noliving View Post

From an end user perspective that doesn't use large data array software the majority of the time they interact with the device, which would be more than 90% of the user base, the only real practical benefit from 64 bit would be the 4 GB+ system ram.

For the last time…


Apple took advantage of the transition to make some changes of their own. The biggest change is an inline retain count, which eliminates the need to perform a costly hash table lookup for retain and release operations in the common case. Since those operations are so common in most Objective-C code, this is a big win. Per-object resource cleanup flags make object deallocation quite a bit faster in certain cases. All in all, the cost of creating and destroying an object is roughly cut in half. Tagged pointers also make for a nice performance win as well as reduced memory use.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #94 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

That I know, I didn't know that "The number of conditional instructions is far more limited in ARMv8/A64."

This limitation is a good thing. It's basically tightening up the instruction set to make it more efficient.

I was dabbling on that thought after I shut down my Mac. "Thank Steve for iPads"

Thank you sir for responding. Good luck on educating the uneducated, though I presume this was your last post on that matter.
post #95 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


For the last time…


Apple took advantage of the transition to make some changes of their own. The biggest change is an inline retain count, which eliminates the need to perform a costly hash table lookup for retain and release operations in the common case. Since those operations are so common in most Objective-C code, this is a big win. Per-object resource cleanup flags make object deallocation quite a bit faster in certain cases. All in all, the cost of creating and destroying an object is roughly cut in half. Tagged pointers also make for a nice performance win as well as reduced memory use.

You really honestly believe that Facebook and Twitter apps are going to run that much faster because of that.  I'm not doubting that above in bold, what I'm asking is what is the impact in terms of performance increase for the end user on the most commonly used apps such as Facebook, Twitter, Safari and the answer is negligible and you know it.

post #96 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post

How is everyone doing with Touch ID? Mine is quite flaky, working about 20% of the time. 
[/quote
Mine works 100^%. Rock solid.
post #97 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noliving View Post
 

You really honestly believe that Facebook and Twitter apps are going to run that much faster because of that.  I'm not doubting that above in bold, what I'm asking is what is the impact in terms of performance increase for the end user on the most commonly used apps such as Facebook, Twitter, Safari and the answer is negligible and you know it.

I own one iPad with an A5X and one with an A7 and the difference is very noticeable in how fast things run. With mobile devices we are not yet at the same point we are with desktops, where faster CPU makes no difference, the CPUs are still slow enough that a doubling in performance is noticeable to human perception.

 

Also those apps you mentioned are not the most popular (at least in terms of sales), looking at the top 10 apps on the app store, none of those are in there, and 7 of the 10 are games, which surely will benefit a lot.

post #98 of 114
Originally Posted by Noliving View Post

"64 bit address buses only real benefit is that it can address more than 4 GB of system ram"

 

You stated that statement was incorrect.  That is not incorrect.

 

So, if it’s not incorrect, explain why an app, unchanged except for its compilation, runs slower in 32-bit mode than in 64-bit mode when actually tested, despite every article downplaying the benefits of 64-bit saying that such programs will run slower because of the extra address space.

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #99 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noliving View Post

You really honestly believe that Facebook and Twitter apps are going to run that much faster because of that.  I'm not doubting that above in bold, what I'm asking is what is the impact in terms of performance increase for the end user on the most commonly used apps such as Facebook, Twitter, Safari and the answer is negligible and you know it.

We're discussing the performance and power benefits of the new ISA (which you said wasn't a benefit) your argument is that you won't notice FB and Twitter apps running faster? You mean the user won't see what they type into the text field show up any faster than it does now so it makes the new ISA pointless even though it allows for the CPU to get back to idle and RAM to be released faster? You're right about that but the end result is that the system BENEFITS from 64-bit because the system is more efficient, which is something you said wasn't a benefit in your claim that you need more than 4GB of RAM before 64-bit makes any sense. So yes, apps will run faster especially when it comes to retain and release, but this is all irrelevant to your original point.
Edited by SolipsismX - 12/28/13 at 4:56pm

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post #100 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post


Mine’s not flaky at all. It always unlocks in milliseconds, whether from powered off or the lock screen. it’s barely delayed enough to notice there’s a ‘process’ going on other than powering up the home screen…

I redid my finger scans a couple of times, after paying more attention to what parts of my fingertips are contacting the button when I reach for it without thinking about it. The first time I scanned I treated the process more like “getting my fingerprints taken”. The second time, less so, but I noticed I was still not completely matching the way I naturally touched the button (depending on the finger).

The third time, I scanned all my fingers more accurately using the positions I use when I ‘mindlessly’ reach for the phone. Now, it fires up instantly every time. I no longer frequently get the “Try Again” wiggling message. Maybe once in a hundred or so unlocks?

I scanned four fingers. My left and right thumbs, and L/R index fingers. The fifth I reserved in case I need a second scan of the one I use most (or a stiff drink :P), but so far, all is well…

I would suggest you rescan, making sure you focus on the fingertip areas that naturally tap the button when you unlock it...

 

 

Yes, sorry, I should have stated in my original post. I rescanned 5 times. 

 

I had someone add their finger and it has read it twice. Testing to see if it is an issue with my prints or the Touch ID. 

post #101 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post


Yes, sorry, I should have stated in my original post. I rescanned 5 times. 

I had someone add their finger and it has read it twice. Testing to see if it is an issue with my prints or the Touch ID. 

I had some difficulty. First, I entered the same thumb in my phone twice. I also changed my reading thumb posture. I found that scans are much more reliable if I'm touching only just hard enough to maximize readable print area, but not actually push the button in at all. Maybe this is how it was intended and I didn't pick up on it at first. Pressing the home button in seems to reduce the readable print area, because it's a more deeply recessed pocket then.
Edited by JeffDM - 12/30/13 at 6:08am
post #102 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I had some difficulty. First, I entered the same thumb in my phone twice. I also changed my reading thumb posture. I found that scans are much more reliable if I'm touching only just hard enough to maximize readable print area, but not actually push the button in at all. Maybe this is how it was intended and I didn't pick up on it at first. Pressing the home button in seems to reduce the readable print area, because it's a more deeply recessed pocket then.

Oh no! You pushed the button? You don't have to!
post #103 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post

Oh no! You pushed the button? You don't have to!

That little fact escaped my notice for a while. I figured it out eventually.
post #104 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


I had some difficulty. First, I entered the same thumb in my phone twice. I also changed my reading thumb posture. I found that scans are much more reliable if I'm touching only just hard enough to maximize readable print area, but not actually push the button in at all. Maybe this is how it was intended and I didn't pick up on it at first. Pressing the home button in seems to reduce the readable print area, because it's a more deeply recessed pocket then.

 

Yes on all points. I am starting to think there is something wrong with my prints. Thanks for the suggestions. 

post #105 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


I had some difficulty. First, I entered the same thumb in my phone twice. I also changed my reading thumb posture. I found that scans are much more reliable if I'm touching only just hard enough to maximize readable print area, but not actually push the button in at all. Maybe this is how it was intended and I didn't pick up on it at first. Pressing the home button in seems to reduce the readable print area, because it's a more deeply recessed pocket then.

 

Press the home button to power on and immediately "release pressure" on the button, but don't move your finger immediately off the button when you release the pressure.

 

Again: Press briefly to power on then release the pressure without removing the finger. 

 

It's a very fast process, almost equivalent to powering on without a passcode, using almost the same action, except you leave the finger there touching the button lightly for a few extra milliseconds.

 

It reads perfectly and almost instantly every time I do that.

 

It's gotten to the point where I don't even "hover" after powering on. I'm just not "rushing" off the button. It feels really natural now, after a couple of months of using it... I sure wish my new Retina iPad Mini had the Touch ID. I really prefer it now!

post #106 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemyNX View Post


Oh no! You pushed the button? You don't have to!

 

You do if the phone is powered off.

 

But if it's powered on, then no press is needed, just a light touch on the button and voila.

 

I do find that if I'm coming from a powered off state, just doing a quick press/release/hover on the home button unlocks it faster than when it's powered on and touching the home button. I can see a delay that doesn't happen coming directly from the powered off state.

post #107 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

Press the home button to power on and immediately "release pressure" on the button, but don't move your finger immediately off the button when you release the pressure.

Again: Press briefly to power on then release the pressure without removing the finger. 

It's a very fast process, almost equivalent to powering on without a passcode, using almost the same action, except you leave the finger there touching the button lightly for a few extra milliseconds.

It reads perfectly and almost instantly every time I do that.

It's gotten to the point where I don't even "hover" after powering on. I'm just not "rushing" off the button. It feels really natural now, after a couple of months of using it... I sure wish my new Retina iPad Mini had the Touch ID. I really prefer it now!

The super quick login is a bit undesirable, because the phone then clears the notifications (or really, makes them harder to find) before I've had a chance to read them.

I don't mind touching the button a second time.
post #108 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


The super quick login is a bit undesirable, because the phone then clears the notifications (or really, makes them harder to find) before I've had a chance to read them.

I don't mind touching the button a second time.

 

I sometimes check for notifications using the power button, or just a super quick press to the home button (without triggering the unlock).

 

If I do unlock and 'wipe' them from the lock screen, a quick swipe down from the top of the screen shows them again... (I leave my notification center screen set to "all" by default, so I always see those missed ones first).

 

Meaning, they're not at all hard to find if you inadvertently clear them off the lock screen. :)

post #109 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

I sometimes check for notifications using the power button, or just a super quick press to the home button (without triggering the unlock).

If I do unlock and 'wipe' them from the lock screen, a quick swipe down from the top of the screen shows them again... (I leave my notification center screen set to "all" by default, so I always see those missed ones first).

Meaning, they're not at all hard to find if you inadvertently clear them off the lock screen. 1smile.gif

I've had notifications that get cleared from that screen too. Messages is one of those offenders.
post #110 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


I've had notifications that get cleared from that screen too. Messages is one of those offenders.

 

What do you mean "offenders"? It's designed (rightly, in my view) to behave that way. Do a simple power-on to view notifications in the lock screen. Unlock to clear the lock screen. As it should be! I wouldn't want to have to manually clear everything from the lock screen every time it started piling up. Think about it.

 

Besides, once unlocked, it's a simple swipe down to view the same notifications in the Notification Center, which is where that stuff is managed. You don't want the ability to manage that from the lock screen do you?  Then anyone could mess with it, and that wouldn't be good...

post #111 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

What do you mean "offenders"? It's designed (rightly, in my view) to behave that way. Do a simple power-on to view notifications in the lock screen. Unlock to clear the lock screen. As it should be! I wouldn't want to have to manually clear everything from the lock screen every time it started piling up. Think about it.

Besides, once unlocked, it's a simple swipe down to view the same notifications in the Notification Center, which is where that stuff is managed. You don't want the ability to manage that from the lock screen do you?  Then anyone could mess with it, and that wouldn't be good...

You misunderstand. For several programs, those notifications are totally removed from the pull-down tap once the screen is unlocked. I don't think this is good.

Also, the power on behavior is odd, spanning the range. Sometimes it unlocks before I even release my thumb. A few times, rejects thumb scan attempts and I have to key code it.
Edited by JeffDM - 1/12/14 at 12:14pm
post #112 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


You misunderstand. For several programs, those notifications are totally removed from the pull-down tap once the screen is unlocked. I don't think this is good.

Also, the power on behavior is odd, spanning the range. Sometimes it unlocks before I even release my thumb. A few times, rejects thumb scan attempts and I have to key code it.

 

I didn't misunderstand. Programs like Messages are correctly removed from Notifications once unlocked. Why? Well, in this case, they are only on the lock screen to let you know you have a message. Once you unlock, you use the Messages app to interact with those, right? Once unlocked, there's the Messages icon with a badge to let you know you've got messages.... In fact, your entire Home Screen becomes a sort of Notification Center with the app badges, etc. you don't need the Notification screen to notify, read or manage those messages. If those remained in the Notification Center, you might instead be complaining about the redundancy of having (to manage) all those in multiple places. :)

 

I think the system makes clear sense once you get familiar with it. The Notices that remain make sense to keep there, the ones that don't are items you're going to use their parent programs to manage, and those types of programs typically notify you using badges...

 

The point isn't lost on me. I just think you're arguing something as if it's broken, when in fact, it works quite well once you get to know it.

 

 

As for powering on, maybe you should try powering on using the Power Button at the top of the phone. Then you'll always see your lock screen (and any notifications there), and won't run the risk of Touch ID working too well and too fast...... I'm pretty certain any inconsistency of behavior is ours, rather than the sensor's (assuming it's not defective)... 

 

I've learned a few interesting things about the Touch ID behavior. If you move your finger across the button at all during the scan, it'll ask to try again. If it's off angle just a bit, the same (although you can rotate your fingerprint to pretty much any angle to touch, if your finger is "off plane" or off center too much it won't work). Finally, the more I just "press to power on" and think about it less, the more often it's instantly successful.

 

Anyway, I hope you get a comfortable method worked out. I think getting in the habit of initially powering on with the power button (or using the home button with a finger that's not registered?) might be a good solution for you... then you can unlock with Touch ID after reviewing your lock screen notices... like you said, you don't mind doing two presses...

post #113 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

I didn't misunderstand. Programs like Messages are correctly removed from Notifications once unlocked. Why? Well, in this case, they are only on the lock screen to let you know you have a message. Once you unlock, you use the Messages app to interact with those, right? Once unlocked, there's the Messages icon with a badge to let you know you've got messages.... In fact, your entire Home Screen becomes a sort of Notification Center with the app badges, etc. you don't need the Notification screen to notify, read or manage those messages. If those remained in the Notification Center, you might instead be complaining about the redundancy of having (to manage) all those in multiple places. 1smile.gif

I think the system makes clear sense once you get familiar with it. The Notices that remain make sense to keep there, the ones that don't are items you're going to use their parent programs to manage, and those types of programs typically notify you using badges...

The point isn't lost on me. I just think you're arguing something as if it's broken, when in fact, it works quite well once you get to know it.

Then I'm lost on why some apps keep the notification in the pull-down and not others, when pretty much all the apps in question have badges, yet, some clear the notification, some don't.

Quote:
As for powering on, maybe you should try powering on using the Power Button at the top of the phone.

That would be much more deterministic, though I think that's awkward.

Quote:
I'm pretty certain any inconsistency of behavior is ours, rather than the sensor's (assuming it's not defective)... 

Or, it could be the set of assumed operating parameters that doesn't allow for seemingly minor variations in human interaction resulting in significant variations in outcomes. Generally, it seemed that Apple is about being a company that tries to adapt machines to people, rather than force people to adapt to the machine, and this seems to me to be a counterexample.

Quote:
I've learned a few interesting things about the Touch ID behavior. If you move your finger across the button at all during the scan, it'll ask to try again. If it's off angle just a bit, the same (although you can rotate your fingerprint to pretty much any angle to touch, if your finger is "off plane" or off center too much it won't work). Finally, the more I just "press to power on" and think about it less, the more often it's instantly successful.

Quote:
Anyway, I hope you get a comfortable method worked out. I think getting in the habit of initially powering on with the power button (or using the home button with a finger that's not registered?) might be a good solution for you... then you can unlock with Touch ID after reviewing your lock screen notices... like you said, you don't mind doing two presses...

I really don't mind doing two presses.
post #114 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Then I'm lost on why some apps keep the notification in the pull-down and not others, when pretty much all the apps in question have badges, yet, some clear the notification, some don't.
Have you checked your Notification Center settings in Settings.app? Appearing on the lock screen, showing a badge and appearing in Notification Center are all different toggles, and are set on a per-app basis.

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