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NSA worked on iPhone spyware to remotely monitor users, leaked documents show - Page 2

post #41 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post
 

"but the document suggests physical contact with a target phone is required to implant the surreptitious software"

 

So for this software to work they must have my phone or perhaps bump my iPhone to upload the software or perhaps the software just load itself automatically without me doing a single like the guy who claimed iOS7 installed itself in his home.

 

​The way I look at it it is much ado about nothing unless one is a iHater.

 

Well, as others have pointed out, this might be out of date. It's quite possible the NSA can access your phone without physical access now. They were also doing this by rerouting phone shipments and actually hacking into them prior to the customer even getting them.

 

This isn't much ado about nothing - it's a serious attack on everyone's civil liberties. That it involves Apple is tangential, but will possibly have ramifications for Apple as people (politicians, judges, business leaders) in other countries will have second thoughts about using Apple products.

post #42 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

That the downtime was related to the removal of political threads.

You have to ask Apple, not me, I don't work @ Apple support but all dropoutjeep threads were gone after. Coincident? Maybe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post
 

"but the document suggests physical contact with a target phone is required to implant the surreptitious software"

 

So for this software to work they must have my phone or perhaps bump my iPhone to upload the software or perhaps the software just load itself automatically without me doing a single like the guy who claimed iOS7 installed itself in his home.

 

​The way I look at it it is much ado about nothing unless one is a iHater.

This was in 2008. 5 years is A LONG TIME in IT.

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Marquiz d' Gabber von Gabberaarde

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... 6x slower!
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post #43 of 86

Let's say that this is true (that NSA can physically intercept a new iPhone to put spyware on it). Can I just re-image the phone when I receive it to remove the spyware?

post #44 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by formosa View Post

Let's say that this is true (that NSA can physically intercept a new iPhone to put spyware on it). Can I just re-image the phone when I receive it to remove the spyware?

Who knows outside of the NSA? Just guessing I'd personally think not. A report a couple days back indicated that intercepts of laptops, MacBooks and the like bound for purchasers installed spyware at the firmware level. Reinstalling the OS would be useless as a way to remove it.
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post #45 of 86
I'm of the opinion that it is impossible to make irreparable changes to the iPhone by simply bumping it. Even simple software updates from Apple can take minutes.

No, I think this is wrong.

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post #46 of 86
Originally Posted by Evilution View Post
If you have nothing to hide, who cares.

 

The most terrifying thing is not that the government is illegally monitoring its citizens.

 

It’s that people like you who believe the above are allowed to vote.

 

Originally Posted by gabberattack View Post
LOL

 

Thanks for telling us that all you have is tin foil.

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post #47 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Who knows outside of the NSA? Just guessing I'd personally think not. A report a couple days back indicated that intercepts of laptops, MacBooks and the like bound for purchasers installed spyware at the firmware level. Reinstalling the OS would be useless as a way to remove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

The most terrifying thing is not that the government is illegally monitoring its citizens.

It’s that people like you who believe the above are allowed to vote.


Thanks for telling us that all you have is tin foil.

Indeed. If all the votes I cast end up canceling out the vote of someone who doesn't care, my vote was well spent.

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post #48 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfish View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post
 

"but the document suggests physical contact with a target phone is required to implant the surreptitious software"

 

So for this software to work they must have my phone or perhaps bump my iPhone to upload the software or perhaps the software just load itself automatically without me doing a single like the guy who claimed iOS7 installed itself in his home.

 

​The way I look at it it is much ado about nothing unless one is a iHater.

 

Well, as others have pointed out, this might be out of date. It's quite possible the NSA can access your phone without physical access now. They were also doing this by rerouting phone shipments and actually hacking into them prior to the customer even getting them.

 

If you are just going to start rampant speculation, it's also possible that they can access and control every device and computer that you own without physical access first.  Or maybe they really can't, and it's just the usual kind of FUD that bored conspiracy theory enthusiasts  love to spread.

post #49 of 86
Given the past and current state of iOS jailbreaking, it probably hasn't been necessary to get Apple's help. Getting the required physical access to the iPhone without alerting the target would still be the greatest challenge.
post #50 of 86

Given the past and current state of iOS jailbreaking, it probably hasn't been necessary to get Apple's help.  Getting the required physical access to the iPhone without alerting the target would still be the greatest challenge.

post #51 of 86

LAST I HEARD NSA HAS THEM ON PAYROLL

post #52 of 86

no the spyware is on the firmware

 

if ever there was an argument for building ones own computer now is the time

post #53 of 86

Appelbaum looks sooooo cute and huggable when judging software developed by a multibillion $$ company!

 

Who's next? Oh yeah ... let me see if my dead gran pa (Lord bless his soul) wakes up and bash Apple ....

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....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

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post #54 of 86
@paul94544

How do you know?

appelbaum is just talking up his ass, if he is that good a programmer he could have reversed engineered iOS to prove he is right.

Instead he just speculated to get this three minute of fame.

Kind of sad.
post #55 of 86

Folks, where are you guys coming from  saying this is just speculation? We have the documents from Snowden. NSA was doing this. They were intercepting iPhones before they even got to customers' hands. Not saying it was your iPhone, but maybe a congress person's. A judge's. A politician who had yet to "tow the line" with regards to the national security apparatus. This isn't speculation, other NSA whistleblowers (Russ Tice) have discussed that he personally held in his hands the paperwork on (then senator) Obama, as well as Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. Back when Echelon was first leaked in '88, there was mention that a Republican Senator was being tapped. 

 

 

 

 

This isn't about your iPhone. It's about people who matter (politicians, judges), or who are stirring the pot (activists, civil rights lawyers, etc). 

post #56 of 86
Coolfish, you've just spelled it out in no uncertain terms. Every single politician, police, judge and lawyer is potentially under the thumbscrews of the NSA. Whenever a blatant injustice is done, or a law passed that cannot possibly be constitutional, the question must be asked... Was this person forced or what could possibly be their motivation?

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post #57 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfish View Post
 

Folks, where are you guys coming from  saying this is just speculation? We have the documents from Snowden. NSA was doing this. They were intercepting iPhones before they even got to customers' hands. Not saying it was your iPhone, but maybe a congress person's. A judge's. A politician who had yet to "tow the line" with regards to the national security apparatus. This isn't speculation, other NSA whistleblowers (Russ Tice) have discussed that he personally held in his hands the paperwork on (then senator) Obama, as well as Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. Back when Echelon was first leaked in '88, there was mention that a Republican Senator was being tapped. 

 

 

 

 

This isn't about your iPhone. It's about people who matter (politicians, judges), or who are stirring the pot (activists, civil rights lawyers, etc). 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that they can do this if they get hold of your phone, but that is not a simple matter itself, which probably makes it just as difficult to pull off as any other kind of covert surveillance operation.  The phones don't get shipped from the factory destined for an identifiable customer. Maybe with a court order they can intercept online order deliveries, but if you buy it in a store then it's just not going to be feasible at all.

post #58 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by patsu View Post
...

I am more interested in iOS7. It is more sophisticated than iOS 1.x/2.x (and the first iOS SDK) in 2008. What can NSA do today ?

We don't know the internal of iOS7.  Maybe it is easier to monitor than the old versions if Apple was secretly coerced and cooperated with NSA?  Remember the NYPD was encouraging people to update to iOS7 when it came out?

post #59 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

I don't think anyone is disputing that they can do this if they get hold of your phone, but that is not a simple matter itself, which probably makes it just as difficult to pull off as any other kind of covert surveillance operation.  The phones don't get shipped from the factory destined for an identifiable customer. Maybe with a court order they can intercept online order deliveries, but if you buy it in a store then it's just not going to be feasible at all.

Causes one to question the possible roles of FedEx and UPS in this. Do they divert flagged shipments to NSA facilities? If so, are there thousands of NSA locations always at the ready to perform these modifications?

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post #60 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilution View Post

If you have nothing to hide, who cares. The government look at all emails and listen to all telephone calls, they have done for years. They hack into everything without permission because they don't need permission. They have limitless funds and access to the best hackers available and the most powerful computers. They would not need Apple's help.

 

Then Apple should tell them to **** off, if they don't need their help.

post #61 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfish View Post
 

 

Well, as others have pointed out, this might be out of date. It's quite possible the NSA can access your phone without physical access now. They were also doing this by rerouting phone shipments and actually hacking into them prior to the customer even getting them.

 

This isn't much ado about nothing - it's a serious attack on everyone's civil liberties. That it involves Apple is tangential, but will possibly have ramifications for Apple as people (politicians, judges, business leaders) in other countries will have second thoughts about using Apple products.

 

And that where NSA will leave companies in the dust, sorry Apple you are on your own oh and thanks for the info.

post #62 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry View Post

I don't think anyone is disputing that they can do this if they get hold of your phone, but that is not a simple matter itself, which probably makes it just as difficult to pull off as any other kind of covert surveillance operation.  The phones don't get shipped from the factory destined for an identifiable customer. Maybe with a court order they can intercept online order deliveries, but if you buy it in a store then it's just not going to be feasible at all.

Causes one to question the possible roles of FedEx and UPS in this. Do they divert flagged shipments to NSA facilities? If so, are there thousands of NSA locations always at the ready to perform these modifications?

 

No - I doubt very much that they have that kind of extensive infrastructure, and I'm pretty sure that these would have to be individual covert operations. They may bend the rules and run dubious operations at times, but they can't just set up large-scale illegal facilities that rely on the collusion of major multinational companies.

post #63 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


Causes one to question the possible roles of FedEx and UPS in this. Do they divert flagged shipments to NSA facilities? If so, are there thousands of NSA locations always at the ready to perform these modifications?

 

Yes, under the patriot act all companies can be strong armed into submission easy.

post #64 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilution View Post

If you have nothing to hide, who cares. ....

This statement is incredibly naive. Do you actually trust your government? And how about tomorrow's government? Turn off your tv for a while and follow Appelbum and his whistleblower friends like Thomas Drake, former NSA official who's been completely ruined for telling the truth. They accused him of leaking classified information that had actually been on the net for years. When they found that they RETROACTIVELY classified the documents! By the time all was said and done Drake had lost an excellent income, a pension and now works at an Apple store. See the new documentary War on Whistleblowers for more and on Twitter follow Appelbum, Thomas Drake, Jesselyn Radack, Sibel Edmonds, Susan Lindauer, and Laura Poitras for a start. 

post #65 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by toysandme View Post
 

This statement is incredibly naive. Do you actually trust your government? And how about tomorrow's government? Turn off your tv for a while and follow Appelbum and his whistleblower friends like Thomas Drake, former NSA official who's been completely ruined for telling the truth. They accused him of leaking classified information that had actually been on the net for years. When they found that they RETROACTIVELY classified the documents! By the time all was said and done Drake had lost an excellent income, a pension and now works at an Apple store. See the new documentary War on Whistleblowers for more and on Twitter follow Appelbum, Thomas Drake, Jesselyn Radack, Sibel Edmonds, Susan Lindauer, and Laura Poitras for a start. 

There are tough choices to be made in the modern world. If you live in a Western democracy, and let's just consider US and UK for a moment, then you have been attacked by people sworn to destroy your culture (using airliners full of passengers as bombs in New York or putting bombs on buses full of passengers in London, as examples). If you think there are no more attackers are out there, if you're really sure there are no more attackers out there, then you may think there are no problems to solve.

 

If you think it's prudent not to assume that there are no more attackers and if you think they might be organised then they might use the Internet and mobile comms to organise their attacks. They might even use iPhones. So it might be useful if NSA or GCHQ could read their traffic and disrupt their plans (and save some lives).

 

Let's also choose to believe Snowden's leak, by the way, and not that it's these same people spreading disinformation.

 

So you have to choose what else to believe, then you have to choose whether the possible attackers or a possible present or future government presents he biggest threat, so you can choose who to trust. The one thing you don't have to question, at least for GCHQ (http://www.gchq.gov.ukand the UK, is whether the security agencies spy on communications in search of threats to national security: they do, it's their job.

 

So then you have to choose whether they should have that capability, bearing in mind that it may save lives. So perhaps it's about choosing who to trust to give how much oversight?

 

Tough choices.

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post #66 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Command_F View Post

There are tough choices to be made in the modern world. If you live in a Western democracy, and let's just consider US and UK for a moment, then you have been attacked by people sworn to destroy your culture (using airliners full of passengers as bombs in New York or putting bombs on buses full of passengers in London, as examples). If you think there are no more attackers are out there, if you're really sure there are no more attackers out there, then you may think there are no problems to solve.

If you think it's prudent not to assume that there are no more attackers and if you think they might be organised then they might use the Internet and mobile comms to organise their attacks. They might even use iPhones. So it might be useful if NSA or GCHQ could read their traffic and disrupt their plans (and save some lives).

Let's also choose to believe Snowden's leak, by the way, and not that it's these same people spreading disinformation.

So you have to choose what else to believe, then you have to choose whether the possible attackers or a possible present or future government presents he biggest threat, so you can choose who to trust. The one thing you don't have to question, at least for GCHQ (
http://www.gchq.gov.uk
and the UK, is whether the security agencies spy on communications in search of threats to national security: they do, it's their job.


So then you have to choose whether they should have that capability, bearing in mind that it may save lives. So perhaps it's about choosing who to trust to give how much oversight?


Tough choices.

At least in America, government was supposed to be restrained by our Constitution. Unfortunately so many are uneducated about these restraints that they have since birth been given the idea that their government fills the role of parent and police to the world. It's disturbing how far afield things have gotten.

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post #67 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Command_F View Post
 

There are tough choices to be made in the modern world. If you live in a Western democracy, and let's just consider US and UK for a moment, then you have been attacked by people sworn to destroy your culture (using airliners full of passengers as bombs in New York or putting bombs on buses full of passengers in London, as examples). If you think there are no more attackers are out there, if you're really sure there are no more attackers out there, then you may think there are no problems to solve.

 

If you think it's prudent not to assume that there are no more attackers and if you think they might be organised then they might use the Internet and mobile comms to organise their attacks. They might even use iPhones. So it might be useful if NSA or GCHQ could read their traffic and disrupt their plans (and save some lives).

 

Let's also choose to believe Snowden's leak, by the way, and not that it's these same people spreading disinformation.

 

So you have to choose what else to believe, then you have to choose whether the possible attackers or a possible present or future government presents he biggest threat, so you can choose who to trust. The one thing you don't have to question, at least for GCHQ (http://www.gchq.gov.ukand the UK, is whether the security agencies spy on communications in search of threats to national security: they do, it's their job.

 

So then you have to choose whether they should have that capability, bearing in mind that it may save lives. So perhaps it's about choosing who to trust to give how much oversight?

 

Tough choices.

 

It's not a question of whether government should have access to private information but the circumstances under which that access is allowed.

 

Law Enforcement may enter my home and search for evidence of a crime, but to do so they have to convince a judge that there's a good reason to believe such evidence exists at that time and place. That introduces at least one layer of potential sober consideration, and notifies ME that I'm under investigation. Why should policies regarding interception of electronic communications be any less stringent or subject to less scrutiny? No one is saying law enforcement shouldn't be able to investigate bad guys, we're just saying they're not allowed to do whatever they want to whoever they want whenever they want however they want. There has to be someone in charge, who is ultimately responsible for what each cop does, and a level of transparency to the process that prevents abuse.

 

I don't want the bad guys to be protected from law enforcement either, but I'd honestly rather accept the Twenty-Million-to-One odds of dying in a terrorist attack over constantly worrying that anything I write or say may be misinterpreted and get me in trouble, or more likely and much, much worse, provide other less-bad-but-still-not-good guys with the means to unfairly oppress innocent people.


Edited by v5v - 1/1/14 at 4:31am
post #68 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Command_F View Post

There are tough choices to be made in the modern world. If you live in a Western democracy, and let's just consider US and UK for a moment, then you have been attacked by people sworn to destroy your culture (using airliners full of passengers as bombs in New York or putting bombs on buses full of passengers in London, as examples). If you think there are no more attackers are out there, if you're really sure there are no more attackers out there, then you may think there are no problems to solve.

If you think it's prudent not to assume that there are no more attackers and if you think they might be organised then they might use the Internet and mobile comms to organise their attacks. They might even use iPhones. So it might be useful if NSA or GCHQ could read their traffic and disrupt their plans (and save some lives).

Let's also choose to believe Snowden's leak, by the way, and not that it's these same people spreading disinformation.

So you have to choose what else to believe, then you have to choose whether the possible attackers or a possible present or future government presents he biggest threat, so you can choose who to trust. The one thing you don't have to question, at least for GCHQ (
http://www.gchq.gov.uk
and the UK, is whether the security agencies spy on communications in search of threats to national security: they do, it's their job.


So then you have to choose whether they should have that capability, bearing in mind that it may save lives. So perhaps it's about choosing who to trust to give how much oversight?


Tough choices.

False dilemma.

The government can and should go after terrorists according to due process, but that has nothing to do with the government illegally spying on the general population.
post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Command_F View Post
 

There are tough choices to be made in the modern world. If you live in a Western democracy, and let's just consider US and UK for a moment, then you have been attacked by people sworn to destroy your culture (using airliners full of passengers as bombs in New York or putting bombs on buses full of passengers in London, as examples). If you think there are no more attackers are out there, if you're really sure there are no more attackers out there, then you may think there are no problems to solve.

 

If you think it's prudent not to assume that there are no more attackers and if you think they might be organised then they might use the Internet and mobile comms to organise their attacks. They might even use iPhones. So it might be useful if NSA or GCHQ could read their traffic and disrupt their plans (and save some lives).

 

Let's also choose to believe Snowden's leak, by the way, and not that it's these same people spreading disinformation.

 

So you have to choose what else to believe, then you have to choose whether the possible attackers or a possible present or future government presents he biggest threat, so you can choose who to trust. The one thing you don't have to question, at least for GCHQ (http://www.gchq.gov.ukand the UK, is whether the security agencies spy on communications in search of threats to national security: they do, it's their job.

 

So then you have to choose whether they should have that capability, bearing in mind that it may save lives. So perhaps it's about choosing who to trust to give how much oversight?

 

Tough choices.

 

It isn't tough if a citizen/company hasn't committed a crime you the government don't get to go on fishing trips. Without a warrant issued in the light of day, served to the person or company before hand easy.

post #70 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Command_F View Post
 

There are tough choices to be made in the modern world. If you live in a Western democracy, and let's just consider US and UK for a moment, then you have been attacked by people sworn to destroy your culture (using airliners full of passengers as bombs in New York or putting bombs on buses full of passengers in London, as examples). 

 

Oh please. FYI the laws of physics don't take a break. The only people who believe the official story are those who (a) didn't look into it seriously or (b) suffer from cognitive dissonance. There are excellent documentaries that cover this. This new Italian production is the best. Here's the trailer for the English edition: http://bit.ly/1clc98q

 

And here's the table of contents for the series. Warning: It's 5-hours long: http://bit.ly/1hU554P

 

Cognitive dissonance is covered here, among other places: http://bit.ly/18XqZDU

 

Enjoy. 

post #71 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by iaeen View Post
Aside: is it still called Ad Hominum if it's the internet?

You meant the "argumentum ad hominem"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post
What a worm

THAT is an argumentum ad hominem

 

@toysandme

The laws of physics don't take a break, but some people obviously have no clue what they are!

 


Edited by smalM - 1/1/14 at 5:38am
post #72 of 86
Dear! You Americans are the problem, not Apple nor Google. You democracy is rotten and you folk don't control the system.

Why do you allow your representants to control you life? Why does nobody in the US stop this privacy violation? Does your democracy not work?

From the European point of view we would love to support an entire new designed web.

Why are you Americans are just discussing in non impact forums like Apple Insider? Get action. Control your system. Stop this "we can do what ever we want" NSA.
post #73 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacHarry de View Post

Dear! You Americans are the problem, not Apple nor Google. You democracy is rotten and you folk don't control the system.

Why do you allow your representants to control you life? Why does nobody in the US stop this privacy violation? Does your democracy not work?

From the European point of view we would love to support an entire new designed web.

Why are you Americans are just discussing in non impact forums like Apple Insider? Get action. Control your system. Stop this "we can do what ever we want" NSA.

First things first... America is not a democracy. It is a democratic republic and I'm sure you knew that.

Second, it's absolutely true Americans are under the misimpression that they are subservient to government, instead of the other way 'round. This is what results after government insidiously seeps into all aspects of life and law after law dictates every aspect and detail of behavior. The fears of 9-11 have been allowed to drive all federal activities at the cost of adhering to our Constitution. It is a shame.

Third, I have no idea what you mean by Europeans wanting a new Internet, but I am aware of Germany's efforts to "sandbox" Germany from NSA spying. I view that as a political pipe dream.

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post #74 of 86
Originally Posted by MacHarry de View Post
You Americans are the problem

 

That’s nice. Go away now.

 
You democracy is rotten

 

We don’t have a democracy. Educate yourself.

 
Why do you allow your representants to control you life?

 

That’s what you do in a representative republic.

 
Why does nobody in the US stop this privacy violation?

 

Oh, we will. We are right now, in fact.

 
Does your democracy not work?

 

Again, we don’t have a democracy.

 
From the European point of view we would love to support an entire new designed web.

 

Good for you. Not happening, though.

 
Why are you Americans are just discussing in non impact forums like Apple Insider?

 

How is this a question you can even ask?

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post #75 of 86
summary of the Snowden leaks...

Google- Android team worked hand in hand with NSA to allow remote backdoor access.

Apple- NSA had to steal your phone, modify software (iOS 1 & 2 only, remember 2008)
post #76 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadMonk View Post

summary of the Snowden leaks...

Google- Android team worked hand in hand with NSA to allow remote backdoor access.

Apple- NSA had to steal your phone, modify software (iOS 1 & 2 only, remember 2008)

Do you have any sources for this?

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post #77 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Do you have any sources for this?

Of course he hasn't. It's a conspiracy theory.

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post #78 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by toysandme View Post
 

 

Oh please. FYI the laws of physics don't take a break. The only people who believe the official story are those who (a) didn't look into it seriously or (b) suffer from cognitive dissonance. There are excellent documentaries that cover this. This new Italian production is the best. Here's the trailer for the English edition: http://bit.ly/1clc98q

 

And here's the table of contents for the series. Warning: It's 5-hours long: http://bit.ly/1hU554P

 

Cognitive dissonance is covered here, among other places: http://bit.ly/18XqZDU

 

Enjoy. 

Thanks for the links (though I've not watched the 5 hours worth).

 

We shouldn't digress onto 9/11 in this topic, it was an example only. Considering the broader point, I'm not sure how cognitive dissonance helps here: it describes a tendency to try to maintain consistency in one's beliefs so we could conclude that those that fundamentally trust the US government will see NSA as a force for good and those that distrust will see them as a means of oppression. I'm not sure that's a new insight.

 

None of this answers the question of what tools are legitimate for these agencies to have, except to express the extremes ('all' or 'none').

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post #79 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by v5v View Post
 

 

It's not a question of whether government should have access to private information but the circumstances under which that access is allowed.

 

Law Enforcement may enter my home and search for evidence of a crime, but to do so they have to convince a judge that there's a good reason to believe such evidence exists at that time and place. That introduces at least one layer of potential sober consideration, and notifies ME that I'm under investigation. Why should policies regarding interception of electronic communications be any less stringent or subject to less scrutiny? No one is saying law enforcement shouldn't be able to investigate bad guys, we're just saying they're not allowed to do whatever they want to whoever they want whenever they want however they want. There has to be someone in charge, who is ultimately responsible for what each cop does, and a level of transparency to the process that prevents abuse.

 

I don't want the bad guys to be protected from law enforcement either, but I'd honestly rather accept the Twenty-Million-to-One odds of dying in a terrorist attack over constantly worrying that anything I write or say may be misinterpreted and get me in trouble, or more likely and much, much worse, provide other less-bad-but-still-not-good guys with the means to unfairly oppress innocent people.

I agree, I think you're describing a rational oversight regime. In terms of interception, I believe that is how English law already works (don't know about the US) with the exception that the suspect is not told that their comms are being monitored. I think the last bit has some logic to it.

 

Your last paragraph is about balance and I sympathise with that too. My only concern is knowing what the odds really are and how much they change when the agencies' capabilities change. A worrying analogy would be the Year 2K 'problem' when the world worried about an IT meltdown as ageing computer systems crashed worldwide on being presented with a date whose year didn't start with '19'. Lots of money was spent changing systems and the millennium changed with nary a hiccup. There is a tendency recently to regret the 'waste of money since there wasn't a problem'...  In that case, being in the industry, I can say that the opposite interpretation (a lot of people did a lot of well executed preventative work that was ultimately successful) is actually the truth. Trouble is, we're not in a good position to judge on the security agencies.

OS X and iOS user

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OS X and iOS user

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post #80 of 86
I'm confused what the problem is. Is it since the general population as well as terrorists use iPhones, NSA shouldn't try to hack into it? If so, that seems rather naive of real life.

Over the past several years I've seen various news articles of criminals hacking into phones. Is it OK for criminals but not those trying to catch them?
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