or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Google to push royalty-free VP9 4K video codec as H.265 alternative for YouTube
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Google to push royalty-free VP9 4K video codec as H.265 alternative for YouTube - Page 2

post #41 of 155

Google needs to be legally required to support h.264 and h.265 right alongside this BS. They’re in the same position Microsoft had in the ‘90s in regard to Internet video content.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #42 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Do you have any examples of patents that Google has been found to infringe, which apparently qualifies as theft in your view? Other than two very old Lycos patents that PAE ("patent troll") Vringo bought it looks like a pretty sparse list. Much easier to find numerous examples of patent infringement by other techs, but of course those wouldn't be "theft" since it wasn't Google?

As for Nokia I mentioned yesterday that they'd gone "lone wolf" when I first mentioned VP9. Pretty sure you would have seen it but in case you didn't.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/161387/npd-chromebook-sales-outperform-macbooks-in-commercial-sector-as-ipad-loses-ground/200#post_2452610

 

Still obtuse as ever.

 

How about the Microsoft patents that virtually EVERY SINGLE Android OEM pays license fees to MS to use (including heavyweights like Samsung). The ones where Google was crying like a baby saying MS was "extorting" fees from OEM's. Google claimed Android was free as well. Turns out it's far from free.


Edited by EricTheHalfBee - 1/3/14 at 8:47am

Author of The Fuel Injection Bible

Reply

Author of The Fuel Injection Bible

Reply
post #43 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Pretty sure that's just what I said sir. HARDWARE! Now if you want to discuss software patents and such to prove that VP9 is encumbered with IP belonging to others that Google has "stolen " feel free to cite examples as usual.

 

No, you mentioned them in terms of FOSS (and I see you edited your post as well).

 

Wait, are you going to try to use a logical fallacy? If I say I can't find any cases of VP9 infringing then you're going to claim that it doesn't? Do you think we're stupid enough to fall for your tricks after seeing you use them countless times in the past?

 

Don't worry, one year from now when we find out Google was again lying and stealing I'll make sure to revive this post for you.

 

Of course there's no cases of VP9 infringement yet - it's only been available recently and nobody has had time to see what aspects of VP9 may or may not infringe. But of course you'll try to use that as proof that it doesn't infringe.

Author of The Fuel Injection Bible

Reply

Author of The Fuel Injection Bible

Reply
post #44 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post
 

I wish YouTube would just die.  Google has no concept of quality software or the end user experience.  What else do you expect an advertising company to do to a video sharing site but turn it to shit.  Google has no history or background in video.  They know the web and they know how to track you and sell your information to advertisers and that's about it.

 

Vimeo is a million times better.  I actually suggested Apple build a Vimeo app in the home screen of iOS but I don't think they will.

They have on apple TV.  Apple TV's Vimeo app works great.

post #45 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfugle View Post

In the end isn't it which most popular devices are actually installed with the codec to play back all this amazing 4K video crap? If Apple supports their in-house codecs, along with historic versions but not Google's, they the point is moot. Google will be forced to update their systems to accept what their "shared" clients want. And secondly, as shown clearly, 80% of deployed Android devices never get current OS updates so they cannot even push a new codec anyways. It's true that they are seeming more and more like the monolithic MS each year passing. Who suffers most? The customer who make these companies uber-rich.

Google already said they'd also be supporting h.265 as well in YouTube. Why are so many here still trying to position this as a codec war?
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #46 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Is that h.265? I didn't see mention of it but perhaps.

EDIT: A search of ISO/IEC docs returns no results for h.265.

H.265 is also called High efficiency video coding.  Which the link he provided is for.

post #47 of 155
U
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

I wish YouTube would just die.  Google has no concept of quality software or the end user experience.  What else do you expect an advertising company to do to a video sharing site but turn it to shit.  Google has no history or background in video.  They know the web and they know how to track you and sell your information to advertisers and that's about it.


Vimeo is a million times better.  I actually suggested Apple build a Vimeo app in the home screen of iOS but I don't think they will.
unless Apple buys Vimeo
post #48 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

No, you mentioned them in terms of FOSS (and I see you edited your post as well).

Wait, are you going to try to use a logical fallacy? If I say I can't find any cases of VP9 infringing then you're going to claim that it doesn't? Do you think we're stupid enough to fall for your tricks after seeing you use them countless times in the past?

Don't worry, one year from now when we find out Google was again lying and stealing I'll make sure to revive this post for you.

Of course there's no cases of VP9 infringement yet - it's only been available recently and nobody has had time to see what aspects of VP9 may or may not infringe. But of course you'll try to use that as proof that it doesn't infringe.


Nope, that post was not edited (one of the few that wasn't LOL)

Actually I invited you to list any examples of where Google was found to infringe on anyone else's patents, not just those pertaining to VP9. Foot-stomping and pitchfork carrying while screaming Theft!" seem a bit hollow without evidence and certainly doesn't make it a fact. Manufacturers who license Android and also pay Microsoft a license fee for "double-secret patents" that might or might not apply to Android is hardly proof of infringement.
Edited by Gatorguy - 1/3/14 at 10:14am
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #49 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic View Post

H.265 is also called High efficiency video coding.  Which the link he provided is for.

Thanks. That's helpful.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #50 of 155
edit
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #51 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post
 

I wish YouTube would just die.  Google has no concept of quality software or the end user experience.  What else do you expect an advertising company to do to a video sharing site but turn it to shit.  Google has no history or background in video.  They know the web and they know how to track you and sell your information to advertisers and that's about it.

 

Vimeo is a million times better.  I actually suggested Apple build a Vimeo app in the home screen of iOS but I don't think they will.

 

I think Youtube was designed to be crap, so you have to scroll and click more. So they can tell their customers (advertisers) that there is a lot more engagement with the site.

 

 The interface is even worse from a couple of years ago.  At least then you could scroll the other videos on the right while still watching the video.  They also replace standard HTML links with javascript so you can't easily open them in another window or tab.

 

And on top of that, they now keep forcing Google+ on you.  They'll switch your youtube name with your Google+ name at times, and I get Google+ emails now.  Totally annoying.

 

I guess when the user is the product, you deal with this crap.

post #52 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

No, you mentioned them in terms of FOSS (and I see you edited your post as well).

Wait, are you going to try to use a logical fallacy? If I say I can't find any cases of VP9 infringing then you're going to claim that it doesn't? Do you think we're stupid enough to fall for your tricks after seeing you use them countless times in the past?

Don't worry, one year from now when we find out Google was again lying and stealing I'll make sure to revive this post for you.

Of course there's no cases of VP9 infringement yet - it's only been available recently and nobody has had time to see what aspects of VP9 may or may not infringe. But of course you'll try to use that as proof that it doesn't infringe.

In other words, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
post #53 of 155

Unless there is hardware decoding (which VP8 lacked), it's never going to take off. Software decoding burns through mobile batteries quicker than anything. There's already h265 ASICs in production, AFIAK.

post #54 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicron View Post

Unless there is hardware decoding (which VP8 lacked), it's never going to take off. Software decoding burns through mobile batteries quicker than anything.

Isn't that what the hardware partners like Qualcomm, Intel, ARM, Broadcom, Sony, LG and the like would do, build it into the hardware?
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #55 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by BNZfive View Post
 

It's called "MacTubes" and it's great! Just make sure you change the "player type" to Quicktime via Pref>Player

 

 

BTW AI wouldn't let me post when using my Facebook to login, even though I have zero infractions. So....Now I have two accounts....YAY!

In a thread where most comments are critical of the way Google tracks us everywhere we go, you complain that Facebook isn't tracking you enough. Unbelievable!

post #56 of 155
Originally Posted by BNZfive View Post

…using my Facebook to login…

 

Aside from breaking the rules, this is your problem.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #57 of 155

http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/12/google-tries-to-get-rockstars-android.html

 

Google is one of those being sued for infringement. 

post #58 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmay View Post

http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/12/google-tries-to-get-rockstars-android.html

Google is one of those being sued for infringement. 

Apple gets sued for patent infringement on a regular basis so I'm not certain of the point you think you're making. Is it noting that there's companies and individuals who may want to claim infringement? Perhaps it's that filing an infringement suit is tantamount to proof? Maybe you were trying to make some other point.

By the way, there's a whole lotta little Rockstar children running around now. There's Bockstar learning how to sue Cisco, and Mobilestar trying to roughhouse with Android licensees ( Google too now).. One of the other siblings is Constellation rolling on the ground with Time Warner and yet another is Netstar, the one not playing nice with Google Search. Oh, and there's Rockstar's side-ride Spherix who took on a few of those old Nortel patents to try and make a buck or two with. Gosh they multiply fast don't they?
Edited by Gatorguy - 1/3/14 at 2:43pm
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #59 of 155
Originally Posted by BNZfive View Post

And Tallest, if one were to be breaking rules, wouldn't it be nice to know what rules were broken.

 

Multiple accounts. Just message the staff; they’d be glad to help you out with fixing your first one!

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #60 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Still obtuse as ever.

How about the Microsoft patents that virtually EVERY SINGLE Android OEM pays license fees to MS to use

Here's an oddity sure to muddy the waters: Intel is apparently introducing dual-OS PC's and/or other devices next week. What OS you might ask? Why Windows and . . . Android.

Anyone up for a rendition of Ebony and Ivory?1bugeye.gif
Edited by Gatorguy - 1/3/14 at 12:06pm
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #61 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


VP9 already has a pretty long list of hardware partners, and they're not FOSS folks.
"...ARM, Broadcom, Intel, LG, Marvell, MediaTek, Nvidia, Panasonic, Philips, Qualcomm, RealTek, Samsung, Sigma, Sharp, Sony and Toshiba" among others. Again it's not an either/or codec choice.


Yeah, VP8 had a pretty looooooooonger list of hardware partners .... ROFLMAO

....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

Tim Cook ~ The Wall Street Journal - February 7, 2014

Inside Google! 

Reply

....the lack of properly optimized apps is one of the reasons "why the experience on Android tablets is so crappy".

Tim Cook ~ The Wall Street Journal - February 7, 2014

Inside Google! 

Reply
post #62 of 155

and another

 

http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/12/google-maps-and-navigation-under-patent.html

 

Google's free ride is nearing its apex; all downhill from there.

post #63 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbia View Post


Yeah, VP8 had a pretty looooooooonger list of hardware partners .... ROFLMAO

I don't know that VP8 had any at all. They've apparently learned from their error.
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #64 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmay View Post

and another

http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/12/google-maps-and-navigation-under-patent.html

Google's free ride is nearing its apex; all downhill from there.

Ah yes, Nokia. A patent-troll in training? They're still after Apple too. Should be a clearer path now that they've mostly shed their hardware side so not as easily counter-sued.
http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2012/03/microsoft-and-nokia-sue-apple-for-patent-infringement-through-a-holding-company.html
http://www.techradar.com/us/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/eu-warns-nokia-not-to-become-patent-troll--1206769


EDIT: Forgot the second link where Nokia has been warned about it's patent monetization policies going forward.
Edited by Gatorguy - 1/3/14 at 12:39pm
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
melior diabolus quem scies
Reply
post #65 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceek74 View Post
 

So what other code did Google steal to make VP9 4K?  You know they stole something.  Epic fail nonetheless.

The scary thing is that time after time they seem to get away with it.  Strange world in which we live...

post #66 of 155
Something strange here%u2026

As algernon points out, independent testing shows that VP9 is *far* less efficient than HVEC, and even MPEG-AVC.

I suspect that Google's tests are not using AVC, but an older version. I think this is slight-of-hand.
post #67 of 155

At 36:54, Microsoft PowerPoint crashes on their presentation Mac. *sigh* Poor form, Google. Why not Keynote.app?

 

post #68 of 155

There are many implementation and spec of H.264 and the difference in quality are HUGE. The simplest implementation of H.264 could look even worst then the old xvid codec.

 

And if you compare vp9 against the best of H.264, x264 encoder. Most would agree x264 is still better in quality, and less prone to encoding error. 

 

So, thx for the BS from Google. So much about doing no evil.

post #69 of 155
Originally Posted by benyu View Post
At 36:54, Microsoft PowerPoint crashes on their presentation Mac. *sigh* Poor form, Google. Why not Keynote.app?

 

Google using terrible software is fine with me. They deserve all the punishment they get.

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply

Originally Posted by helia

I can break your arm if I apply enough force, but in normal handshaking this won't happen ever.
Reply
post #70 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by benyu View Post

At 36:54, Microsoft PowerPoint crashes on their presentation Mac. *sigh* Poor form, Google. Why not Keynote.app?

Because they're used to crap software; it's in their DNA.
How to enter the Apple logo  on iOS:
/Settings/Keyboard/Shortcut and paste in  which you copied from an email draft or a note. Screendump
Reply
How to enter the Apple logo  on iOS:
/Settings/Keyboard/Shortcut and paste in  which you copied from an email draft or a note. Screendump
Reply
post #71 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

"On the other hand, when compared to the H.265/MPEG-HEVC reference encoder implementation, the VP9 encoding times are lower by a factor of 7.35, on average."
You conveniently omitted the fact that it was a software implementation of H.265.

The biggest advantage of h.265 is that it is quite similar to h.264 from hardware acceleration perspective. Chips that support h.264 hardware decoding can be extended to support h.265 in as little as a week development time.

VP9 on the other hand is a much dicier issue. Even VP8 never had any support in hardware, so it is a from-scratch problem.

Don't under-estimate the advantage H.265 has from just this one reason. It is a no brainer for any chip to support h.265 in hardware.

In fact Google's licensing agreement with MPEG-LA is quite meaningless - because until there is widespread hardware support for VP8 and VP9, it is just free money for MPEG-LA.

In its efforts to undermine others IP, Google has made several missteps that have actually costed it way more than it would have, if they just operated clean and took a license.

The Motorola acquisition is one, and this MPEG-LA license is another.
post #72 of 155
Since there don't seem to be any other players ofnsignificance in the video codec space, I suppose a bit of competition from Google couldn't hurt. Keep MPEG on their toes.

censored

Reply

censored

Reply
post #73 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

Since there don't seem to be any other players ofnsignificance in the video codec space, I suppose a bit of competition from Google couldn't hurt. Keep MPEG on their toes.

That were true if Google was an innovative company, creating incentive for the competition to outdo them. But alas, they are mediocre at best, trying to stick their pesky little fingers into things they do not understand, nor how they should work. Ultimately do stuff just to tick of check boxes for bragging rights. Only to discontinue after they come to the sad realisation they couldn't create something of value to begin with.

Google. A checkbox company.
How to enter the Apple logo  on iOS:
/Settings/Keyboard/Shortcut and paste in  which you copied from an email draft or a note. Screendump
Reply
How to enter the Apple logo  on iOS:
/Settings/Keyboard/Shortcut and paste in  which you copied from an email draft or a note. Screendump
Reply
post #74 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


"On the other hand, when compared to the H.265/MPEG-HEVC reference encoder implementation, the VP9 encoding times are lower by a factor of 7.35, on average."

 

Well, in the Abstract of the same paper, that same sentence is given a little bit different:

 

"When compared to the full-fledged H.265/MPEG- HEVC reference software encoder implementation, the VP9 encoding times are lower by a factor of 7.35, on average."

 

Also, the goal of a reference implementation is to increase understanding, not performance. That's why most if not all such implementations have awful performance.

post #75 of 155

Again no point in comparing VP9 against H.265. Those are two very different thing. And the best encoder of H.265 is guarantee to beat VP9 hands down. That is why Google have VPx ( 10 ) in the pipeline. Which to me still wont beat H.265.

post #76 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post

Again no point in comparing VP9 against H.265. Those are two very different thing. And the best encoder of H.265 is guarantee to beat VP9 hands down. That is why Google have VPx ( 10 ) in the pipeline. Which to me still wont beat H.265.

It's hard to see Google beat anyone. Except for their stock.
How to enter the Apple logo  on iOS:
/Settings/Keyboard/Shortcut and paste in  which you copied from an email draft or a note. Screendump
Reply
How to enter the Apple logo  on iOS:
/Settings/Keyboard/Shortcut and paste in  which you copied from an email draft or a note. Screendump
Reply
post #77 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post

That were true if Google was an innovative company, creating incentive for the competition to outdo them. But alas, they are mediocre at best, trying to stick their pesky little fingers into things they do not understand, nor how they should work. Ultimately do stuff just to tick of check boxes for bragging rights. Only to discontinue after they come to the sad realisation they couldn't create something of value to begin with.

Google. A checkbox company.
Sometimes, yes.

But sometimes, Chrome and Android, which have certainly kept Apple on its toes.

censored

Reply

censored

Reply
post #78 of 155

Every time I use Vimeo I feel embarrassed for YouTube: embarrassed for their GUI designers and embarrassed for their video streaming tech. But in fairness they probably have far more users.

post #79 of 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Every time I use Vimeo I feel embarrassed for YouTube: embarrassed for their GUI designers and embarrassed for their video streaming tech. But in fairness they probably have far more users.

More users should result in more attention, time and larger funding to create something...worthwhile watching. Instead YouTube is just the opposite of that. Save the user comments for another discusion; that is the worst thing I've ever seen and makes me feel ashamed to be of the same species.

But that's Google alright; anything goes.
How to enter the Apple logo  on iOS:
/Settings/Keyboard/Shortcut and paste in  which you copied from an email draft or a note. Screendump
Reply
How to enter the Apple logo  on iOS:
/Settings/Keyboard/Shortcut and paste in  which you copied from an email draft or a note. Screendump
Reply
post #80 of 155
Seems Vimeo is your place to be. Why care about a site you don't use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post

I wish YouTube would just die.  Google has no concept of quality software or the end user experience.  What else do you expect an advertising company to do to a video sharing site but turn it to shit.  Google has no history or background in video.  They know the web and they know how to track you and sell your information to advertisers and that's about it.


Vimeo is a million times better.  I actually suggested Apple build a Vimeo app in the home screen of iOS but I don't think they will.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Google to push royalty-free VP9 4K video codec as H.265 alternative for YouTube