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Nest's Fadell backtracks on data privacy, will be transparent about future changes - Page 2

post #41 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post
 

Fadell strikes me as naive for a CEO.

He didn't do too badly in his two turns as CEO, did he?

post #42 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by truetoform2002 View Post
 

I recently purchased & installed 3 Thermostats and 5 smoke detectors...  

 
Now that you are being acquired by Google how do I opt-out of your data collection?  I have little trust in Google and want no part of them collecting data on me and my family...  I want the data for my own personal use...  If I am unable to opt-out, I would like to know how I can return the products...
 
Regards,
Paul

Pretty silly to be sending this message at this point, isn't it? Smacks of "I know you are going to do this and that I will show you how smart I am by pre-empting your next step by asking you questions you've no answers for ..."

post #43 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbelkin View Post

Nest is done. Google will fold into a Google Home brand within a year - Faddell will leave soon so whatever he promises won;t mean anything when he's gone and it's not named Nest anymore. Of course, Google will drive most of the employees away - after all, how smart could they be if they weren't working for Google already? And since Google doesn't believe in customer service, there will be a giant hole in the market for anyone to step in. Of course, Apple won;t - Apple will simply work with thousands of home automation companies who will now not work with Google who owns their competitor. Basically Google has spent $15 billion in the past 2 years to be more like Apple and is no closer than they were.

If Google has been trying to be more like Apple by designing and shipping hardware, does it mean Apple has been trying to be more like Google by providing services? 

post #44 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by genovelle View Post

I am still at a loss as to why Google fanboys frequent a site called Appleinsiders trying to convince Apple fans that Google is good. You chose your bed. You won't find any of us on a Google site. We don't have to justify our purchases.

Are there many Google fanboys here? Or are some of those folks simply less biased (and deluded) in their views? It is possible to like both Apple and Google technology?

post #45 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by old-wiz View Post

Not sure what use there would be for someone to learn that I keep the thermostat set at 65 degrees at night and 68 during the day if I'm home. Still I don't like the idea of the thermostat reporting to outside agencies.. Fortunately I had no plans to buy a Nest thermostat anyway, so my plans won't change.

Any statement from a CEO of a just-purchased company has to be taken with a grain of salt. He will do whatever Google tells him to do in the future. I'd hate to be working for one of those small companies that gets gobbled up by a much larger one like Google. bye bye to small teams, generous perks in the office, liberal HR policies, and whatnot. Instead you become just one cog in Google's vast empire, subject to their policies for workplace, pay, vacations, etc.

I'm not a fan of the way Google has been acting since 2008, but Google is still one of the best (if not the best) company to work for. Back in 2006 when I interviewed with them in Mountain View, I personally witnessed the perks that their employees were getting, and that was amazing.
post #46 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundvision View Post

You'd have to be an idiot to think that Google won't be tapping into Nest's data. You don't pay $3.2 billion for a company and not tap into each and every corner of that company. I currently own a Nest and I have no problem with Google buying this company. If they want to know when I turn my heat on and when my smoke alarm goes off, more power to them.

I think it's pretty comical to see all the Apple fans disown the Nest over this. I'm about as die hard of an Apple fan as it gets, but I'm not losing sleep over this. My Nest has been leaps and bounds better than what was previously on my wall and it would take Google really screwing up this company for me to give it up. While Google will use Nest for its own gain, I haven't seen any evidence that Google is going to screw it up.

Google will know when you come and when you leave your house. Still don't think there's anything wrong with it?
post #47 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

I'm glad the UK launch was delayed now, I has been eagerly awaiting the chance to buy the Thermostat.

Picked up a Tado model instead, after extensive research it actually seems to be a better product in many respects, at least for Europe.

I tried to get Nest to honour their warranty here in the UK, if I bought a unit mail order from the US. They couldn't/wouldn't/promised/delayed...for 3months so I cancelled and researched alternatives including Tado. Having to contact British Gas for a technical compatibility question, I was pleasantly surprised when I was offered a Hive unit at better than 50% off if I switched my maintenance contract to them.
Nest is totally f**kd outside of the US.
post #48 of 134
"All I can say is we were finishing each other's sentences"

I hate couples that do that.
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post #49 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by StruckPaper View Post
 

If Google has been trying to be more like Apple by designing and shipping hardware, does it mean Apple has been trying to be more like Google by providing services? 

 

All the big players today (Apple, Google, wireless carriers) are trying to commoditize what their competitors offer. Apple sells hardware at a handsome profit while giving away software and services. Google gives away software and hardware (minimal profits at least) while charging a premium for services (in the form of cash from advertisers and privacy from users). And the wireless carriers give away hardware and software while charging a premium for their wireless services. This is a battle for power and control, playing off each others' perceived strengths and weaknesses.

 

A key thing to remember is that the only player in this game that is looking out for the consumer is Apple. YOU are Apple's customer. You are not Google's customer - you are the product they are selling.

post #50 of 134
Quote:
 "When I was with them, the amount of things that I learned from them..."

 

hmmm. I wonder what kind of things Google could have shared with him that might have twisted his arm? What could Google know about an individual that might be private? hmmm. I just can't imagine.

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post #51 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by freediverx View Post
 

 

All the big players today (Apple, Google, wireless carriers) are trying to commoditize what their competitors offer. Apple sells hardware at a handsome profit while giving away software and services. Google gives away software and hardware (minimal profits at least) while charging a premium for services (in the form of cash from advertisers and privacy from users). And the wireless carriers give away hardware and software while charging a premium for their wireless services. This is a battle for power and control, playing off each others' perceived strengths and weaknesses.

 

A key thing to remember is that the only player in this game that is looking out for the consumer is Apple. YOU are Apple's customer. You are not Google's customer - you are the product they are selling.

I think your point is valid up to an extent. Apple, through its stores, does a really good job of supporting its customers when it comes to hardware products. However, their customer support sucks BIG TIME when it comes to their services. Apple geniuses are no help when Mail or iCloud have issues. I don't pretend that Google's customer support for their services is better. But Google is much better in its deployment of services. Gmail, Google Maps and Google Drive all are superior offerings to Apple counterparts for now.

post #52 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbelkin View Post

Nest is done. Google will fold into a Google Home brand within a year - Faddell will leave soon so whatever he promises won;t mean anything when he's gone and it's not named Nest anymore. Of course, Google will drive most of the employees away - after all, how smart could they be if they weren't working for Google already? And since Google doesn't believe in customer service, there will be a giant hole in the market for anyone to step in. Of course, Apple won;t - Apple will simply work with thousands of home automation companies who will now not work with Google who owns their competitor. Basically Google has spent $15 billion in the past 2 years to be more like Apple and is no closer than they were.

FUD

post #53 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellya74u View Post

I live in a condo complex with posted private property. Google street view drove through & photographed 3 sides of my house. I notified them & they did pixelate a license plate, but did not remove the thousands of feet of homes now visible in street view on the internet. Google now has my email address, but I did not give them the address of where I live, not that they don't have that already by 'other means.' Just realized I need to change the password on my router due to the 'inadvertent' capturing of my router & passwords.

Anything in view of the general public can be photographed whether it's on private property or not. In reality just about every house sits on 'private property'.
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post #54 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundvision View Post


While Google will use Nest for its own gain, I haven't seen any evidence that Google is going to screw it up.

You're ruining the narrative of outraged geeks who are spoon-clanging in freedom-loving rage.
post #55 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by genovelle View Post

I am still at a loss as to why Google fanboys frequent a site called Appleinsiders trying to convince Apple fans that Google is good. You chose your bed. You won't find any of us on a Google site. We don't have to justify our purchases.

It's mostly for entertainment. This stuff is funnier than the XM comedy channels most of the time.

post #56 of 134

It is really not that big of surprise.  3.2B is a lot of money.  Besides, Nest was a Google Venture company, which means it had data collection in mind from the very start.

post #57 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by StruckPaper View Post
 

Are there many Google fanboys here? Or are some of those folks simply less biased (and deluded) in their views? It is possible to like both Apple and Google technology?


Both but I would venture to guess that the most vehemently pro-Google comments here are from Google fanboys. I would also say that there are proportionately a lot more Google fanboys here than there are Apple fanboys on Google sites. Just go to a site like androidpolice.com and make a pro-Apple comment or even a doubting Google comment. You will see rabid Google fanboyism in action.

post #58 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Anything in view of the general public can be photographed whether it's on private property or not. In reality just about every house sits on 'private property'.

 

Wrong. You can photograph it from public property (i.e. the street) but have no right to trespass on their property and photograph their condo.

post #59 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameskatt2 View Post

Fadell's backtracking means that he is lying. Nest will eventually become a gateway for Google to monitor our behavior, our conversations at home so that it can gather data to sell to advertisers - some who are the NSA.

 

Could you be any more hyperbolic? This whole thread is predicated on the idea that Google sells information to advertisers.

 

They don't do that. Enough said. This entire thread is subsequently nonsense.

post #60 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirozha View Post

Google will know when you come and when you leave your house. Still don't think there's anything wrong with it?

 

Google already knows this, as I carry around a phone that scans for WiFi. When it sees my home WiFi it knows where I am.

 

Why is this remotely scary? You know because I am posting here that I am more than likely at home. Where's the creepiness?

post #61 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveN View Post

Wrong. You can photograph it from public property (i.e. the street) but have no right to trespass on their property and photograph their condo.

Photography on private property that is generally open to the public (e.g., a shopping mall) is usually permitted unless explicitly prohibited by posted signs.
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post #62 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveN View Post
 


Both but I would venture to guess that the most vehemently pro-Google comments here are from Google fanboys. I would also say that there are proportionately a lot more Google fanboys here than there are Apple fanboys on Google sites. Just go to a site like androidpolice.com and make a pro-Apple comment or even a doubting Google comment. You will see rabid Google fanboyism in action.

Yep, it's very annoying on both sides of that. I use an Android phone, but own many devices from Apple and Google, and will continue to. My recommendation to my wife when she finally got a smart phone was the iPhone, because it fit her planned use better (she just wants something to work consistently, vs. me who wants to tinker and customize more).

 

It is funny how many people are so scared of Google these days. Yeah, they're big, have a lot of money, and they're collecting our data every place they can. They're not the only ones -- Apple's privacy statement clearly says that they use your personal information to develop and deliver advertising. Nothing new there.

 

Then you see people dismiss Google or Apple as "morons" and their product users as stupid, which says much more about the intelligence of the person speaking.

post #63 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirozha View Post


Google will know when you come and when you leave your house. Still don't think there's anything wrong with it?

You know, Google if they really wanted to probably already knows when I am home or not. I use their email for my business, I use Google to search for things as well. They can easily see that a majority of my day I am operating between two IP addresses, work and home. Do you know who else can tell if I am home? Anybody who is willing to drive by my house and see if my car is parked there.

 

Color me crazy, but I'm not worried about if Google knows if I am home or not. As we become more connected with technology throughout our lives, the more this issue will come up. I would easily say I'm a Google and Apple fan. I'm not an Android fan, but I enjoy using Google search, Google Maps, Google Apps for Business, and their other services. Maybe I should be more worried than I am, but for now it's not a huge concern to me.

post #64 of 134

I have a Nest and I'm not thrilled that Google bought the company. I avoid Google wherever I can. Who knows what info they will harvest in the future. I'm betting that they will use our data to help furnace companies sell us new furnaces. "We noticed that your furnace uses "X amount" of gas. Buy one of our new furnaces and we can save you 4% on your bills." 

 

Google try to get their greasy fingers into all areas of our lives to harvest data and it creeps me out. I'm leaving my Nest on the wall, but if I could do it over again, I wouldn't have bought it knowing what I know now.

 

Every time we turn around Google has a new conduit into our lives. They crossed a line for me personally, it's all too much.

 

I don't think that I can control my Nest from my phone without also sending Google my data. If I can cut the umbilical cord to Google, I'd be much happier.


Edited by Bilbo63 - 1/21/14 at 7:37am
post #65 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63 View Post
 

I have a Nest and I'm not thrilled that Google bought the company. I avoid Google wherever I can. Who knows what info they will harvest in the future. I'm betting that they will use our data to help furnace companies sell us new furnaces. "We noticed that your furnace uses "X amount" of gas. Buy one of our new furnaces and we can save you 4% on your bills."

 

Is this supposed to be creepy? That you are told a product exists to save you 4% without any personally identifiable information being passed along? I think that's frankly very impressive and amazing. If Google do truly get to the level that they can calculate your heating efficiency and improve it? That's a great thing. Why would it be bad?!

post #66 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 

 

Is this supposed to be creepy? That you are told a product exists to save you 4% without any personally identifiable information being passed along? I think that's frankly very impressive and amazing. If Google do truly get to the level that they can calculate your heating efficiency and improve it? That's a great thing. Why would it be bad?!

 

Mainly because it's Google. I am sick of how much info that they harvest. Every time I turn around, their greasy fingers are getting more data. It's creepy and I don't like it. I also don't like door to door salesman.

 

If I feel that I need a new furnace I'll buy one. Google doesn't need to have one of THEIR customers call me thanks.

post #67 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63 View Post
 

 

Mainly because it's Google. I am sick of how much info that they harvest. Every time I turn around, their greasy fingers are getting more data. It's creepy and I don't like it. I also don't like door to door salesman.

 

If I feel that I need a new furnace I'll buy one. Google doesn't need to have one of THEIR customers call me thanks.


Google doesn't have their customers call you. I don't know where people get these ideas from! If a furnace company uses Google, they buy the most relevant search keywords and essentially tell Google what sort of customer they'd want. That's their business plan, and they do such an impressive job of it they can literally answer random questions from the content of the Internet.

 

I know this site is Apple Insider but I find them both very impressive for different reasons.

post #68 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 


Google doesn't have their customers call you. I don't know where people get these ideas from! If a furnace company uses Google, they buy the most relevant search keywords and essentially tell Google what sort of customer they'd want. That's their business plan, and they do such an impressive job of it they can literally answer random questions from the content of the Internet.

 

I know this site is Apple Insider but I find them both very impressive for different reasons.

I realize that they don't actually call. At least TODAY they don't actually call. But their real customers do bombard us with ads based on the info that they harvest. I don't trust Google. Not even a little,– and I'm not the only one. They spend all of their time trying worm their way into our live to collect more and more data. Why? because that's how they make their money. It's their business model.

 

Like I've said repeatedly. It's creepy. Google have gone too far. I don't like it and you are not going to convince me otherwise. If you are comfortable with Google  harvesting your data then fine, whatever blows your hair back. For many of us, we don't like it.


Edited by Bilbo63 - 1/21/14 at 8:07am
post #69 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundvision View Post

You know, Google if they really wanted to probably already knows when I am home or not. I use their email for my business, I use Google to search for things as well. They can easily see that a majority of my day I am operating between two IP addresses, work and home. Do you know who else can tell if I am home? Anybody who is willing to drive by my house and see if my car is parked there.

Color me crazy, but I'm not worried about if Google knows if I am home or not. As we become more connected with technology throughout our lives, the more this issue will come up. I would easily say I'm a Google and Apple fan. I'm not an Android fan, but I enjoy using Google search, Google Maps, Google Apps for Business, and their other services. Maybe I should be more worried than I am, but for now it's not a huge concern to me.

Well, some people have spouses who are not constantly on the Internet, and some of these people have garages, so it's not immediately obvious to a driver-by if there's anyone at home. So, I would consider my thermostats reporting on my absence at home to any company - especially to Google - the invasion of privacy that crosses the red line for me. YMMW.
post #70 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirozha View Post


Well, some people have spouses who are not constantly on the Internet, and some of these people have garages, so it's not immediately obvious to a driver-by if there's anyone at home. So, I would consider my thermostats reporting on my absence at home to any company - especially to Google - the invasion of privacy that crosses the red line for me. YMMW.

Hey, to each their own. I definitely understand the concern and wouldn't fault anyone who is uncertain about this situation. For me, I see too much value in the Nest products. I've been through a house fire before and have lost everything, so to have a thermostat and smoke detector that work in tandem, shutting off the flow of smoke or carbon monoxide when detected, or even alerting me of smoke while I'm away from my house is invaluable to me.

 

I just can't think of anything alarming that Google will do with that data that is of concern to me. If I ever do feel the need to be concerned, I have a few options. I could take the Nest down and replace it, or with my Meraki access point I could create a 2nd SSID that is just for the Nest and does't have access to anything else in my house.

post #71 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63 View Post
 

I realize that they don't actually call. At least TODAY they don't actually call. But their real customers do bombard us with ads based on the info that they harvest. I don't trust Google. Not even a little,– and I'm not the only one. They spend all of their time trying worm their way into our live to collect more and more data. Why? because that's how they make their money. It's their business model.

 

Like I've said repeatedly. It's creepy. Google have gone too far. I don't like it and you are not going to convince me otherwise. If you are comfortable with Google  harvesting your data then fine, whatever blows your hair back. For many of us, we don't like it.

 

How is it creepy? Seriously, you haven't actually established any reason whatsoever. You realise that every single company you ever interact with tries to store as much data as possible? Everyone from Apple to the Zoo cares about the data on their customers. I don't get 'bombarded' with ads. I see occasional, relevant ads, and mostly don't click them. That's the extent of my involvement.

 

 

On the other hand, my Nexus 5 knows when I should leave to get to meetings because it reads my calendar and looks up traffic conditions for me. Then beeps at me and tells me when to leave to make it there on time. That's the flip-side to Google's infrastructure, they sell ads to make money so they can afford to do really impressive stuff like Google Now without charging for it. It's win/win from my perspective. Google knows roughly what sort of person I am and what I like so they can sell things to be better, and in return for buying things I would have anyway, I get awesome free AI services at my disposal.

 

 

Honestly it seems like a good trade-off to me. There's also the benefit that they generally beat their competitors on price too.

post #72 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 

 

How is it creepy? Seriously, you haven't actually established any reason whatsoever. You realise that every single company you ever interact with tries to store as much data as possible? Everyone from Apple to the Zoo cares about the data on their customers. I don't get 'bombarded' with ads. I see occasional, relevant ads, and mostly don't click them. That's the extent of my involvement.

 

 

On the other hand, my Nexus 5 knows when I should leave to get to meetings because it reads my calendar and looks up traffic conditions for me. Then beeps at me and tells me when to leave to make it there on time. That's the flip-side to Google's infrastructure, they sell ads to make money so they can afford to do really impressive stuff like Google Now without charging for it. It's win/win from my perspective. Google knows roughly what sort of person I am and what I like so they can sell things to be better, and in return for buying things I would have anyway, I get awesome free AI services at my disposal.

 

 

Honestly it seems like a good trade-off to me. There's also the benefit that they generally beat their competitors on price too.

Clearly you are not listening.  I am not cool with ANY company that is always creating conduits into my personal life for the sole purpose of harvesting my info. Google just happens to be by far the worst offender and very time we turn around they create yet another way in. That's why they exist. Enough already.

 

I get it. YOU love Google and I'm they only one who finds their data harvesting creepy. I respect your opinion, feel free to live your life as you wish – it's your right. That said, if I CHOOSE to not have Google looking over my shoulder at every turn, that is my right as well. I don't even need a reason. I don't like it should be enough. Shouldn't it?

post #73 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 

 

How is it creepy? Seriously, you haven't actually established any reason whatsoever. You realise that every single company you ever interact with tries to store as much data as possible? Everyone from Apple to the Zoo cares about the data on their customers. I don't get 'bombarded' with ads. I see occasional, relevant ads, and mostly don't click them. That's the extent of my involvement.

 

 

On the other hand, my Nexus 5 knows when I should leave to get to meetings because it reads my calendar and looks up traffic conditions for me. Then beeps at me and tells me when to leave to make it there on time. That's the flip-side to Google's infrastructure, they sell ads to make money so they can afford to do really impressive stuff like Google Now without charging for it. It's win/win from my perspective. Google knows roughly what sort of person I am and what I like so they can sell things to be better, and in return for buying things I would have anyway, I get awesome free AI services at my disposal.

 

 

Honestly it seems like a good trade-off to me. There's also the benefit that they generally beat their competitors on price too.

Oh and by the way, I don't hate everything that Google does and yes some of it is pretty cool. I'm just getting sick of them always creating new ways to get our data. That makes some of us uncomfortable.

post #74 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63 View Post
I get it. YOU love Google and I'm they only one who finds their data harvesting creepy. I respect your opinion, feel free to live your life as you wish – it's your right. That said, if I CHOOSE to not have Google looking over my shoulder at every turn, that is my right as well. I don't even need a reason. I don't like it should be enough. Shouldn't it?

 

It's not like I'm saying you shouldn't have a choice. Just saying that I don't understand why it's supposed to be creepy. Google knows where I live (because they bill me). They know my music taste, they know where I tend to hangout. They also have a rough idea of my friends.

 

 

Google occupies the same place in my life as a random, not particularly close friend would. I don't even use Gmail for my email so to me it's like having a friend who has more computing capacity than God :)

post #75 of 134
Originally Posted by StruckPaper View Post
Are there many Google fanboys here?

 

Why would there be?

 
Or are some of those folks simply less biased (and deluded) in their views?

 

Come off it.

 
It is possible to like both Apple and Google technology?

 

Yes. I do. The technology itself is great.

 

It’s the way that Google runs its entire business that cannot be liked.

 

Originally Posted by StruckPaper View Post
FUD

 

No, that’s probably pretty accurate.

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post #76 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 

 

It's not like I'm saying you shouldn't have a choice. Just saying that I don't understand why it's supposed to be creepy. Google knows where I live (because they bill me). They know my music taste, they know where I tend to hangout. They also have a rough idea of my friends.

 

 

Google occupies the same place in my life as a random, not particularly close friend would. I don't even use Gmail for my email so to me it's like having a friend who has more computing capacity than God :)

 

It's like always having someone peeking in your windows. "I see that Bill is low on milk, I'll just let my friend Steve the milkman know (for a fee of course) that if he puts an ad in Bill's mailbox, he just might make a sale." I know that you are just looking out for my best interest Google but no thanks. I don't mind a bit of targeted ads. But any single company that continually weasels it's way into my life for data collection is uncomfortable to me.

 

I realize it's not just Google. Just to post a comment on some websites it's required that they get your Facebook profile, your contacts, sometimes even your calendar. Why the heck do they need that info? My contacts and calendar is MY  personal information. I attempted to subscribe to a vendors catalogue so THEY could SELL me stuff, but they wouldn't unless I gave them my profile, contacts, calendar as well. There is absolutely no reason that they should REQUIRE that info. It pisses me off. No thanks, maybe I don't want your catalogue after all.

post #77 of 134
I almost bought two of these. Now I will never consider. Google is out of control with data collection. In fact any entity that collects our data is out of control. This just woke me up to ANY wifi controlled device. I never thought a device like this had to collect your data in order to work. If I ran this company or any company I would have a niche market to the people who want ZERO data collected.
post #78 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleuser1 View Post

I almost bought two of these. Now I will never consider. Google is out of control with data collection. In fact any entity that collects our data is out of control. This just woke me up to ANY wifi controlled device. I never thought a device like this had to collect your data in order to work. If I ran this company or any company I would have a niche market to the people who want ZERO data collected.

And how would you advertise said company?
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post #79 of 134
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
And how would you advertise said company?

 

In print.

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post #80 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

In print.

So much for the digital age.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
Reply
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