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WSJ: Apple to launch two larger iPhones this year, scrap iPhone 5c - Page 5

post #161 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

Not a flop. 

 

They just needed to stop the recent trend of too many people opting out of the top end model and buying the previous years model thats 'good enough'.  I think last year the 4S/4 sold over 50% of phones(when the 5 was the top end).  That had to end.  The top end phone has to be the best seller to preserve margins and profits.

 

The 5C is not a failure.  It has a very specific target market.  Its for those who are very price sensitive and don't care about having high end tech. Its also great for kids because of its plastic case.

 

So... are you saying that the 5c isn't as good as the 4 or 4s, so more people would prefer the 5s?

 

Didn't you say the 5c sold better than the 4 from the year before?

 

Or... wait... hold it... okay... uh... just a minute...

 

I'm not quite getting your argument.

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post #162 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdq2 View Post
 

My prediction? Next year's _smaller_ iPhone, assuming the other specs are the same, will easily outsell the big one.

 

Although he had impossible shoes to fill, I think Cook is pretty smart. I think he will eventually learn to ignore the noise, like Jobs could. 

 

And my prediction is an equally priced larger iPhone with the same specs would easily outsell the 4" version. But our predictions mean squat until it happens. The only way I think the 4" could beat a larger one in sales if if they price it higher by $100 or more. 

post #163 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

So... are you saying that the 5c isn't as good as the 4 or 4s, so more people would prefer the 5s?

 

Didn't you say the 5c sold better than the 4 from the year before?

 

Or... wait... hold it... okay... uh... just a minute...

 

I'm not quite getting your argument.

 

The percentage of 5S phones sold is higher than when 5 came out.

 

Thats the bottom line.

Thats what drives margins and profits.

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post #164 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

So... are you saying that the 5c isn't as good as the 4 or 4s, so more people would prefer the 5s?

 

Didn't you say the 5c sold better than the 4 from the year before?

 

Or... wait... hold it... okay... uh... just a minute...

 

I'm not quite getting your argument.

 

Ditto here...perhaps he means "well, Apple had to launch a POS so that everyone moves to the 5S" - it's amazing that people still believe this "deliberate crap" theory...not even SJ had a RDF that strong.

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post #165 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

The percentage of 5S phones sold is higher than when 5 came out.

 

Thats the bottom line.

Thats what drives margins and profits.

 

So what is your reason why this is happening?

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post #166 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

So what is your reason why this is happening?

 

Typical "let's change the subject" argument - now what matters for them is that the 5S is selling well...the 5C is just an accessory to that.

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post #167 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post
 

 

And my prediction is an equally priced larger iPhone with the same specs would easily outsell the 4" version. But our predictions mean squat until it happens. The only way I think the 4" could beat a larger one in sales if if they price it higher by $100 or more. 

 

If they priced it $100 higher then it might take off in China.

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post #168 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

You do realize Apple is already sacrificing margins selling the 5C vs the 5S?  They are also sacrificing revenue and profits.  The MSRP for the 5C is $550.  How the HELL are they going to drop the price by $200!!!

 

Sure the Nexus 5 is nice.  But Google ain't making ANY MONEY AT ALL on that phone.  ZERO!!!  Just like Amazon makes ZERO on their tablets.

 

Also I don't think they will just bring out the 5C again.  I think they will add the A7 to make the entire lineup 64 bit.

 

Just simple math:

 

iPhone 5C has about a 50% gross margin

MSRP: $550

Gross Margin: $275

Cost of materials: $275

 

You want to price the 5C at $350

MSRP = $350

Gross Margin: $175

Cost of materials: $175

 

Now tell me how in HELL is Apple going to shave $100 off of the cost of making the 5C?  That's almost taking off 40% of the cost.  Impossible!!  Only if they are willing to sell it at an ultra thin margin or lose money with every sale like Amazon/Google clowns.

You need to clam down and also learn to read. I never suggested that Apple lower the price by $200 and never suggested they would or should. You have no idea what their margins are anymore than I. For all you know their cost to make a 5c is $200. All those reports are nothing more than guesses. Apple knows their margins and at what price points they can or cannot sell a product. Your prediction that they will keep the 5c  also seems unlikely. The 5c will become the 6c and have the internals of the 5s along with Touch ID since Apple wants Touch ID to gain in popularity with apps. Why in the hell would they leave that out? why wouldn't they also continue the trend hat the 5c started and continue to offer it for $549?  The iPhone 6 will include the A8 or whatever it is called and will likely be far faster than the current A7. That along with a better camera, probably more storage, and several more updated features will be more than enough to differentiate their high end phones from a 6c with 5s internals. 

post #169 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by brlawyer View Post
 

 

Ditto here...perhaps he means "well, Apple had to launch a POS so that everyone moves to the 5S" - it's amazing that people still believe this "deliberate crap" theory...not even SJ had a RDF that strong.

 

you guys are clueless.

 

Ever heard of the Porsche Caymen S?

 

In 2006 it was so good that Porsche engineers had to detune the engine since it was stealing sales from the top end 911 series.  They actually tuned the engine so it produced LESS HORSEPOWER.  Companies need to protect itself from canibalization all the time.

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post #170 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

So what is your reason why this is happening?

 

because there is a clear gap between the top end 5S and the mid end 5C

 

That gap was not present with the 5 vs the 4S.  Both were metal and both looked and felt premium

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post #171 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by brlawyer View Post
 

 

Typical "let's change the subject" argument - now what matters for them is that the 5S is selling well...the 5C is just an accessory to that.

 

The arguments for why the 5c is the best thing since IHOP aren't quite as prevalent as they used to be. Why, just the other day I heard someone say that they rarely see a 5c in the wild... or something to that effect. A total reversal from past rants.

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post #172 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post
 

You need to clam down and also learn to read. I never suggested that Apple lower the price by $200 and never suggested they would or should. You have no idea what their margins are anymore than I. For all you know their cost to make a 5c is $200. All those reports are nothing more than guesses. Apple knows their margins and at what price points they can or cannot sell a product. Your prediction that they will keep the 5c  also seems unlikely. The 5c will become the 6c and have the internals of the 5s along with Touch ID since Apple wants Touch ID to gain in popularity with apps. Why in the hell would they leave that out? why wouldn't they also continue the trend hat the 5c started and continue to offer it for $549?  The iPhone 6 will include the A8 or whatever it is called and will likely be far faster than the current A7. That along with a better camera, probably more storage, and several more updated features will be more than enough to differentiate their high end phones from a 6c with 5s internals. 

 

They wont call the new plastic phone the 6C.

That will take away from the halo of the iPhone6 name.

I expect it to be called iPhone Color.

 

So what is your proposal then?  I thought you said you wanted the 5C to be $350?  I showed you thats impossible if Apple wants to keep its current margins.

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post #173 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

because there is a clear gap between the top end 5S and the mid end 5C

 

That gap was not present with the 5 vs the 4S.  Both were metal and both looked and felt premium

 

Oh.. so the 5c doesn't look or feel premium?

 

This just gets better and better.

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post #174 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakefinance View Post


The Moto G is a perfect example of cheap but not junk. It's a fantastic device that makes very few compromises to reach its $180 price point. Apple could match that phone in design and capabilities and sell it for $250 or less off contract to maintain its high margins.

The Moto G is more similar in performance to the 4S (which sells for $479 right now) than to the 5c. 

post #175 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Because? I'm curious what wisdom you've been blessed with that allows you to know what Steve would/wouldn't have done.

Also do you really think the 5C wasn't on a product roadmap while Steve was still alive? Do you really think Apple just came up with it on the fly (for what reason I have no idea)?

I may be wrong, he is Steve Jobs the man himself that's how he knows.

post #176 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

Oh.. so the 5c doesn't look or feel premium?

 

This just gets better and better.

You reckon it is premium?

 

Yes it is getting better.

post #177 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

They wont call the new plastic phone the 6C.

That will take away from the halo of the iPhone6 name.

I expect it to be called iPhone Color.

 

So what is your proposal then?  I thought you said you wanted the 5C to be $350?  I showed you thats impossible if Apple wants to keep its current margins.

Will you please stop saying what they will or won't do. Everything you and everyone else here writes is nothing more than guesses. You don't know what Apple will or won't do anymore than anyone else here. I never stated that I wanted the 5c to be $350, go back and read my post. I was replying to someone else that said that if an iPhone 5c was suddenly priced at $350 it would magically be junk. Again, Apple knows their costs, their margins, and their customers far better than you or I so they will sell the products at the prices that will bring them the best ROI. Once you thought the follow up to the 5c would essentially be the same but lack Touch ID you lost all credibility in my eyes since that is a major feature along with 64-bit that Apple wants to push out on all iOS devices introduced in 2014.

 

If Apple releases a 6c for $549 as I predict that is essentially the 5s in plastic I hope you will eat your words and offer some apologies. 

post #178 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC View Post
 

You reckon it is premium?

 

Yes it is getting better.

 

You haven't been around that long, have you...

 

(unless I have mistaken what it is that you are saying)

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post #179 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

 

because there is a clear gap between the top end 5S and the mid end 5C

 

That gap was not present with the 5 vs the 4S.  Both were metal and both looked and felt premium

 

As said before, I am going to explain why Apple got it wrong with the 5C when targetting it to "emerging markets" and the like. I am Brazilian and am well aware of the extremely high prices for imported gadgets over there, which are not only due to taxes, but also because people are WILLING to pay more for them, even if on instalments. So here is an example from Apple Brazil:

 

5C 32GB - 12 x 200 BRL 

 

5S 16GB - 12 x 233 BRL

 

5S 32GB - 12 x 266 BRL

 

Now tell me: why would anyone be IIvx-ed when they can have a 5S for a little more per month? Mind you, the outrageous prices above are WITHOUT a carrier plan; heavy discounts apply when choosing longer plans just like anywhere else in the world.

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post #180 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by itpromike View Post
 

Your perspective is laughable at best. 5.5+" phones sure, this comment would be applicable. Note3's are insanely large... However 4.8" is the bare minimum in this juncture of the industry. I'm tired (as many other I know) of looking at a teeny tiny screen, squinting just to make out text on some things or feeling like I'm watching a video on a small childs toy. A larger screen = a better viewing experience for all content and consumption. And no, I'm not carrying around an iPad mini as some have suggested just t have a larger viewing experience. Why carry around 2 devices when 1 will do (if the 1 device is done right)?

 

I'll bet you're one of the guys that used to whine that the iPhone screen was too big, back in 2008-2010, one of those sad Nokia fans who, displaced by the events of the time clutched at the life raft thrown by Samsung.

 

There really isn't that much difference between what you can see on an iPhone 5 sized screen and it's unwieldy Android competitors.

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post #181 of 240

Personally I think the 5s design is out the door. It has proven to be too costly and difficult to produce and I'm thinking they can't wait to stop production of it and move to a design that's much more efficient to assemble (although, it could be that most kinks have been worked out, they could keep it around as the "low-end" model next year). As far as a model with a larger display, sure, but NOT over 5". If anything gets a screen larger than 5" it will be a new model of the iPod touch, not the iPhone. The iPhone will max out at 4.7" or 4.8" simply because it could still allow for one handed use if the display was nearly edge-to-edge. I also tend think Apple could actually hit a lower level of the mobile market simply by adding a wifi+cellular model to the iPod touch as they do with the iPad. This could explain the "discontinuation" of the 5c model; they're simply retooling the design for the iPod touch.

 

So, my guess for this year's iOS line-up...

 

iPhone 5s, 4", $450

iPhone 6, 4", $550

iPhone 6x, 4.8", $650

 

iPad mini $399 WiFi / $529 WiFi+Cellular

iPad Air, $499 WiFi / $629 WiFi+Cellular

iPad Pro, $699 WiFi / $829 WiFi+Cellular

 

iPod touch, 4", $199 WiFi / $329 WiFi+Cellular

iPod touch XL, 5.x", $299 WiFi / $429 WiFi+Cellular


Edited by mjtomlin - 1/23/14 at 1:43pm
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #182 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post
 

 

I'll bet you're one of the guys that used to whine that the iPhone screen was too big, back in 2008-2010, one of those sad Nokia fans who, displaced by the events of the time clutched at the life raft thrown by Samsung.

 

There really isn't that much difference between what you can see on an iPhone 5 sized screen and it's unwieldy Android competitors.

 

You could say the same about an iPhone 4 or 4s screen as well. Open up an app like Modern War,  Kingdom Age, Clash of Clans, Netflix, Youtube, and dozens more of the most popular apps and you will see exactly the same thing on a 3.5", 4", or 5" display. But which is easier to read the small texts that often appear or touch the often tiny small icons on the display? A larger display gives a far better experience. Bigger displays are coming and feel free to stick with your tiny 4" screen if you prefer but after 4 years of waiting for something larger I will be a very happy iPhone customer with a larger display. 

post #183 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post
 

Personally I think the 5s design is out the door. It has proven to be too costly and difficult to produce and I'm thinking they can't wait to stop production of it and move to a design that's much more efficient to assemble (although, it could be that most kinks have been worked out, they could keep it around as the "low-end" model next year). As far as a model with a larger display, sure, but NOT over 5". If anything gets a screen larger than 5" it will be a new model of the iPod touch, not the iPhone. The iPhone will max out at 4.7" or 4.8" simply because it could still allow for one handed use if the display was nearly edge-to-edge. I also tend think Apple could actually hit a lower level of the mobile market simply by adding a wifi+cellular model to the iPod touch as they do with the iPad. This could explain the "discontinuation" of the 5c model; they're simply retooling the design for the iPod touch.

 

Apple will keep the 4" version around for people that give a flying frack about one handed use. But guess what, there is a whole lot of people that don't care about one handed use and want all the goodness that comes with a larger display. Choice is a good thing. Do you use your iPhone with one hand while you use all the apps that are landscape mode only? There are a lot of them. I can type texts with one hand but I can type twice as fast with two hands in landscape mode. Why do people keep talking about one handed use as if this the one feature all iPhone users demand when I see so many already using the current iPhone with 2 hands. 

 

And your price predictions were also way off. Apple will keep the same prices as they have now. There is no way they would sell an unlocked iPhone 6 for $550 when the equivalent 5s now sells for $649. The 6 will start at $649 just like the 5s. 

post #184 of 240
>" ... the Wall Street Journal is probably the most respected newspaper in the world ..."

That was then. It's under new ownership now. The rules changed.
post #185 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by marubeni View Post
 

 

I am afraid you are the clueless one. Apple wants to optimize their product line, since producing a device takes a lot of resources (including mindshare of the management), and if they think that their line would improve if they scrap the 5c and introduce a larger handset, then they will.

 

As for the Wall Street "clowns", the Wall Street Journal is probably the most respected newspaper in the world, so they would not say this unless their sources were quite reliable. In any case, just because the Wall Street people make more money than you do, does not mean that they are worse human beings, or less smart than you -- most likely the opposite.

 
Well actually all analyst work on their own beliefs and agenda. Im a broker and I never claim to know what the market will do, anyone who does is an idiot. Last year the analyst said the market would maybe gain 5% and it gained 30%.
 
Besides that, how many times has the WSJ been right about Apple? They never forecast anything this far in advanced, the only copy info they hear cause it sells papers..
post #186 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by hledgard View Post
 

I think the 5C is great.  I much prefer the solid plastic over the "metal" feeling of the 5S.  The look and feel of the 5C is spot on in my view.

That's exactly the thing it offers a choice: losing the formality that has followed since the 4 (which I do love btw).

 

And choice is good.

post #187 of 240
I'm making a prediction that the next iPhone will not only include wireless AC, but will also include NFC. Why? Because all the big radio chip manufactured have new low power blue tooth, wi-fi, NFC, FM combo chips. So, at least the radio chip they will use from Broadcom or other manufacturer will have it. Of course, like FM, that doesn't mean that iOS will activate it.
post #188 of 240
I'm really surprised to see this coming from the WSJ. Normally their sources are officially or clandestinely approved by Apple to leak accurate information to build hype. Following all the Android OEMs into a world where the only good phone is an enormous one is very strange. The market has spoken very loudly that the most popular phone size in the world is the current iPhone. Some even claim that's too big for a phone.

I think Apple would be unlikely to move from one small phone to two large ones because they like to have clearly delineated target markets. Psychologically a 5" phone appears 25% larger than a 4" phone. It actually offers 56.2% more screen real estate. The psychological difference between 4.5" and 5.5" isn't nearly as big and the actual screen size difference isn't either. Offering 4.8" and 5.6" would be even worse from a product differentiation standpoint. At some point you start inviting comparisons with the 7.9" iPad mini. If you've got a 6" phone do you really need a small tablet too? I think a lot of customers would say no.

Apple currently has a difficult design problem. Their wonderful touch enabled home button and its bezel take up a lot more space than most Android phones devote to top/bottom bezels. As a result Android devices have a much better screen size to overall size ratios. Unless Apple is both willing to forego the home button and able to authenticate fingerprints via an on-screen sensor they are going to be stuck making bulkier phones than the competition at any given screen size.
post #189 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by brlawyer View Post

As said before, I am going to explain why Apple got it wrong with the 5C when targetting it to "emerging markets" and the like. I am Brazilian and am well aware of the extremely high prices for imported gadgets over there, which are not only due to taxes, but also because people are WILLING to pay more for them, even if on instalments. So here is an example from Apple Brazil:

5C 32GB - 12 x 200 BRL 

5S 16GB - 12 x 233 BRL

5S 32GB - 12 x 266 BRL

Now tell me: why would anyone be IIvx-ed when they can have a 5S for a little more per month? Mind you, the outrageous prices above are WITHOUT a carrier plan; heavy discounts apply when choosing longer plans just like anywhere else in the world.

Color, don't need the latest and greatest, cost, don't need to whine on tech blogs. I've listed four reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlt View Post

I'm making a prediction that the next iPhone will not only include wireless AC, but will also include NFC. Why? Because all the big radio chip manufactured have new low power blue tooth, wi-fi, NFC, FM combo chips. So, at least the radio chip they will use from Broadcom or other manufacturer will have it. Of course, like FM, that doesn't mean that iOS will activate it.

NFC isn't going to be there. Apple has moved on to other tech.
post #190 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post
 

Apple will keep the 4" version around for people that give a flying frack about one handed use. But guess what, there is a whole lot of people that don't care about one handed use and want all the goodness that comes with a larger display. Choice is a good thing. Do you use your iPhone with one hand while you use all the apps that are landscape mode only? There are a lot of them. I can type texts with one hand but I can type twice as fast with two hands in landscape mode. Why do people keep talking about one handed use as if this the one feature all iPhone users demand when I see so many already using the current iPhone with 2 hands. 

 

And your price predictions were also way off. Apple will keep the same prices as they have now. There is no way they would sell an unlocked iPhone 6 for $550 when the equivalent 5s now sells for $649. The 6 will start at $649 just like the 5s. 

 

First of all.... of course it's easier to use almost any of these devices with two hands. But - now get this, cause I'm only going to clarify this a dozen more times - it's a PERSONAL PREFERENCE to be able to use the phone with one hand while my other hand is occupied. Furthermore, Apple gives a "flying frack", they've gone on record many times stating that you should be able to use the device with only one hand for MOST of the basic functions. So my OPINION above was based off of that. The only apps I have that are landscape mode only, are games. And I'm pretty sure I'm not going to play Angry Birds while walking home from the grocery store.

 

By the way, thanks for clarifying the prices, I don't have access to internal Apple documents and was just guessing what they might be based on the product line-up I predicted. I'm probably wrong, but so what? Anyway, thanks for enlightening me with your inside knowledge and infinite wisdom. 

Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #191 of 240
It really was interesting (some would say strange) what apple did to the iPhone line last year. They didn't just release one *new* iPhone, the 5s, they released two (as in apple considers the 5c a completely new product even thought internally it isn't).

Releasing two new iPhones a year has set a precedent for apple. I don't think they would go back to releasing just one ever year.
post #192 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post

First of all.... of course it's easier to use almost any of these devices with two hands. But - now get this, cause I'm only going to clarify this a dozen more times - it's a PERSONAL PREFERENCE to be able to use the phone with one hand while my other hand is occupied.
I hope you're using the other hand to hold on to dear life when using mass transit.
post #193 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by brlawyer View Post

Everyone and their dog laughed at me when I said that the 5C would be a flop. It WAS a flop.

Perhaps Apple should name it iPhone IIvx now. 


The iPhone 5C was the second or third best selling handset on all four major US carriers last September without being available for the entire month.



I disagree with your assessment that it is a flop.
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post #194 of 240
I doubt apple jumping more than 1/2 an inch in screen size, and unless Apple gets a new device at $0 I think 5C will stay they may however come out with a 3.5 inch screen $0 device a 4.2-3 inch device running a lbit better than 5S hardware and a 5 inch with advantageous as 32-128 gb and A_X proccesor.
post #195 of 240
In a product line that has multiple skus, the goal of the business is to be able to sell to different demographics. Different skus don't exist to compete with each other (thus being able to call one a flop over the other).

That's like saying the ford explorer is a flop because everyone is buying a fiesta. Or that coke zero is a flop because everyone still buys regular coke.
post #196 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

As for the iPhone 5c, Apple's plastic-backed, mid-range handset has been the subject of many rumors that have claimed the smartphone has sold below the company's internal expectations.

 

Assuming that's true, one has to wonder what is turning off buyers:

 

1. Absence of premium features found only on the 5s (unlikely, since the 4 and 4s sold well alongside the 5)

 

2. The plastic back. Again, seems unlikely since it's better than the plastic on competing units that sell really well.

 

3. The "not-found-in-nature" colors. This is my bet. I'd be interested to see how well this model sells in more natural, conservative colors.

post #197 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

The arguments for why the 5c is the best thing since IHOP aren't quite as prevalent as they used to be. Why, just the other day I heard someone say that they rarely see a 5c in the wild... or something to that effect. A total reversal from past rants.

I've yet to see an iPhone 5c in the wild. To be fair I don't look that closely though and I haven't seen thousands of 5S either. But I've definitely seen those.

post #198 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

...the company will subsequently discontinue the plastic-backed, mid-range iPhone 5c...

 

On the contrary I think the 5c will be around for a looooooooong time. It's currently out-shined by the 5s but represents an apex of simple, technical design.

 

Once Apple begins building more differentiating value into their high end devices, such as larger resolution displays and services centred around touch ID (key-chain and mobile payments) the 5c will be more freely able to cascade into lower price points without cannibalising profit margins where I can easily see interest picking up .

 

It is also relatively simple for them to freshen up the range by releasing a new assortment of colours.

post #199 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSchlob View Post
 

 

I watched some guy standing in a grocery store checkout line. Holding grocery basket in one hand, and "name-your-brand" phablet in the other. I literally had to laugh watching the thing flop around in his hand like a live fish as he tried to navigate the screen. Very comical.

 

Perhaps I should then take some pride in the fact that I manage my life in a way that does not require trying to navigate a pocket computer screen while standing in line at the grocery store. Or dangling the kid. Or unlocking the door. The problem isn't screen size, it's people not knowing when to leave the freakin' phone alone for a few goddam seconds! :)

post #200 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

An important forum trolling skill is being able to cherry pick surveys and web links that prove what one already believes. 1smile.gif

 

So you have data that rebuts his?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that's what I thought.

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