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Update may bring games, controller support to Apple TV this spring - Page 2

post #41 of 65
Awesome! There's no way this can be false. /s but, would be awesome if it was true. they could take their growing number of controller compatible games and make them available in their own appletv App Store area. Maybe you can pair your iPhone for accelerometer and swiping to use games in a different App Store area.
Edited by daveinpublic - 1/23/14 at 4:31pm
post #42 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez Whitey View Post

Funny 😂
We have a Wii that hasn't been touched in almost 2 years, kids & wife are gamers but prefer playing iOS games on iPads, iTouch, and my new iPhone

Now would they play those games on a TV?
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post #43 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

One word sentences are still too difficult for him to understand. Lost cause; leave it be.

Sounds like a personal attack.

post #44 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


Now would they play those games on a TV?

 

short version is.... a bigger screen.

post #45 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


I don't know how remedial I can make my explanation. Here goes.

The Apple TV Games console is. Not. For. People. With. Existing. Consoles. But. For. The. Far. Greater. Number. Of. iPhone. Users. Who. Will. Be. Tempted. Into. Buying. A. Console. Which. Plays. Natively. Their. Existing. iPhone. Games.

In other words you are not the only person in the world. I don't have an xBox, PS or Wii but would buy an Apple TV which streamed content and played my existing iDevice games selection.

They started to sell iTunes content on Windows to encourage the takeoff of iPod and (later) iPhone devices to Windows users. The model is always content sells hardware. Else they would put iTunes in google play.

 

I understood exactly what you were saying before. My point is you seem to assume very few iPhone owners also own a game console which I think is rather silly.  I imagine the percentage of people not owning a game console is a lot smaller than you think. Apple is not selling the AppleTV to make money on hardware sales like all their other products. It is sold mainly as a conduit to get people to spend money on iTunes which is why I think an iTunes app on PS4 would not be a bad idea. Sony allowed Amazon, Hulu, and Netflix there so no reason why Apple could not also strike a deal with Sony. 

post #46 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


What if an AppleTV could offer everything a PS4 or Xbox One has plus...
  • More games
  • Better games
  • Better performance
  • The Apple ecosystem

Here's a quote from an article from June 2013, discussing the PS and Xbox upgrades.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2013/06/26/the-real-reasons-microsoft-and-sony-chose-amd-for-consoles/


ARM-based architectures will soon get as powerful as AMD’s Jaguar cores...

I suspect that that day will have arrived with an A7X APU on an AppleTV.

 

 

That is actually what I hope will happen and I think that would be fantastic. I have been hoping for that for several years and think it could be very successful especially if it is priced around $200. Such a device would give the existing consoles some great competition. My points were only about the existing AppleTV. I could live without Amazon videos on the one you describe but could not live without Plexmedia support though so I would hope there would be a way to include Plex support or I would stick with my PS4. 

post #47 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I would SWAGestimate:
  • an A7X APU
  • up to 16 GB RAM
  • up to 32 GB SSD
  • 802.11ac WiFi
  • Bluetooth 4.0
  • HDMI IN
  • HDMI OUT
  • 4K Video
  • Crossload from iTunes
  • Stream from iCloud
  • Interface Home Server

 

nice specs, but if the A7 can drive 4k video I would be satisfied with it.  The Notes 3 has a 4k camera, imo in 2014 and 2015 you will see a lot of devices able to record 4k so this will drive the 4k TV market before cable can even deliver Hollywood content.  2014 would be a nice year for Apple to launch a 4k monitor/tv and update its AppleTV box.  A complete AppleTV box with games and app is a nice first step.

post #48 of 65
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post
Sounds like a personal attack.

 

You hear a lot of things that aren’t true, though. I notice you’re ignoring the actual argument. Again.

Originally Posted by Marvin

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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #49 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I would SWAGestimate:
  • an A7X APU
  • up to 16 GB RAM
  • up to 32 GB SSD
  • 802.11ac WiFi
  • Bluetooth 4.0
  • HDMI IN
  • HDMI OUT
  • 4K Video
  • Crossload from iTunes
  • Stream from iCloud
  • Interface Home Server

nice specs, but if the A7 can drive 4k video I would be satisfied with it.  The Notes 3 has a 4k camera, imo in 2014 and 2015 you will see a lot of devices able to record 4k so this will drive the 4k TV market before cable can even deliver Hollywood content.  2014 would be a nice year for Apple to launch a 4k monitor/tv and update its AppleTV box.  A complete AppleTV box with games and app is a nice first step.

The A6-powered iPad 4 A6 can already deliver 2K.

Schiller said that the A7 is "desktop class" hardware.

The $100 million Warner Bros. movie Focus, has been filmed (captured), cut and [will be] delivered in 4K..

IMO, With adequate RAM and SSD, the A7X should be able to deliver 4K... Long before the cable carriers can..
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 1/23/14 at 6:17pm
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post #50 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

short version is.... a bigger screen.

Yes but using that logic they'd be playing with the Wii. While mobile games are fun there's not a single game that I wish I could play on a bigger screen.
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post #51 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

You hear a lot of things that aren’t true, though. I notice you’re ignoring the actual argument. Again.

Nope I understood his original argument perfectly well but I just disagree with him. It was not a matter of any misunderstanding. 

post #52 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Quote:
I just disagree with him.

No, you don’t understand what he’s saying at all. You would have written something other than “why would I want it” if you had understood it.

TS... He understands... He just wants different things than you or I do...
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post #53 of 65
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post
TS... He understands... He just wants different things than you or I do...

 

He doesn’t! Not in the slightest. He is claiming that there is no market for the Apple TV in this regard at all. He is claiming that no one would buy it because of these updates due to existing solutions in the market. It’s sheer insanity. 

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #54 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Now would they play those games on a TV?

All day every day.
I think a lot of video gamers are a lot like my family, play a lot but like the campy mobile games and not so much the cutting edge pot smoking cool games like Halo & grand theft auto.
post #55 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

He doesn’t! Not in the slightest. He is claiming that there is no market for the Apple TV in this regard at all. He is claiming that no one would buy it because of these updates due to existing solutions in the market. It’s sheer insanity. 

 

Now you are trying to tell me what I think and believe? I never said any such thing in fact just a few posts above I said if an updated AppleTV that were more powerful were released it would in fact do very well. I also said I had been hoping for such a product since it first came out. I was talking about the existing market and the existing AppleTV.  I pointed out that in the existing market AppleTV and Roku are only a blip when you compare the installed console base for services like Netflix. The PS3 alone has more people using Netflix than Roku and AppleTV combined. Do you dispute that? If Apple releases a new AppleTV that also allows a fuller iOS experience with games then I can see that change and the AppleTV becoming far more popular. My point was that why not get all existing console users onto iTunes as well with an app like Amazon video has already done. That would not in any way diminish or compete with a new an improved Apple TV that also allows games. If anything it would make more game console users consider getting an AppleTV when the time comes. 

 

You still rocking that 1st gen iPhone you won from the radio station? 

post #56 of 65
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post

I was talking about the existing market and the existing AppleTV. 

 

He wasn’t. Confirming that you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.

 
If Apple releases a new AppleTV that also allows a fuller iOS experience with games then I can see that change and the AppleTV becoming far more popular.

 

No. You explicitly cannot. You said so yourself.

 
What possible reason would any console owner and I am including all PS3, PS4, Xbox 360, Xbox One, and Wii which combined is a lot of people, ever have to buy an AppleTV if they already have one of those consoles?
 

You still rocking that 1st gen iPhone you won from the radio station? 

 

You still strawmanning it up when you don’t have an actual argument?

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #57 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I would SWAGestimate:
  • an A7X APU
  • up to 16 GB RAM
  • up to 32 GB SSD
  • 802.11ac WiFi
  • Bluetooth 4.0
  • HDMI IN
  • HDMI OUT
  • 4K Video
  • Crossload from iTunes
  • Stream from iCloud
  • Interface Home Server

I doubt we'll see 4K (or H.265) yet, but all the rest I'd be rapt with.
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post #58 of 65
I hope Apple at least do something, anything. The first Apple TV was amazing, but now its becoming a bit of a joke. They've made it look like its got apps but you cant add to them, even worse your stuck with ones like WSJ which aren't even relevant to tot country your in! For things like streaming films or tv its now not the best and also the most expensive option. E.g. Some tvs have it built in, cable boxs have it built in, games consoles have it built and they have multiple apps to rent from. All of these things also have the major catch up streaming services like iPlayer which Apple TV doesn't. Theres also a box from Now TV for £9.99 that looks almost identical to Apple TV that does all this to.
post #59 of 65
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post
Theyve made it look like its got apps

 

No, not really… That’s why they’re rectangles.

 
…even worse your stuck with ones like WSJ which arent even relevant to tot country your in! 

 

So hide them. Do you complain about how the App Store has apps you don’t care about?

 
E.g. Some tvs have it built in, cable boxes have it built in, games consoles have it built…

 

Enjoy their interfaces. Everybody loves multiple second lag between button presses!

 
Theres also a box from Now TV for £9.99 that looks almost identical to Apple TV that does all this to.

 

You realize that

 

1. They stole the design and

2. You are forced to buy subscriptions to its content to achieve that price

 

Right?

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #60 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

No, not really… That’s why they’re rectangles.

 

As opposed to squares?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

So hide them. Do you complain about how the App Store has apps you don’t care about?

 

 

How do you hide them? Why would I complain about apps in a store, there in a store. Apps on the Apple TV are on it's main screen.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

Enjoy their interfaces. Everybody loves multiple second lag between button presses!

 

The Sky box UI isn't pretty but it's got a decent search that search's all the content from all sources in one format. Don't know what you mean about lag, seems fairly instant.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

 

You realize that

 

1. They stole the design and

2. You are forced to buy subscriptions to its content to achieve that price

 

Right?

 

1. Why would I care if they store the design? I'm a consumer not the person they copied it from.

2. Didn't realise the subscription to active. Even with that though it's still only £45 and you get 5 months of content too. Can't see anywhere what happens when your subscription ends.

post #61 of 65
Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post

As opposed to squares?

 

Yes, they’re different shapes. That gives a distinct visual clue as to their scope and purpose. It’s why the iPod nano uses circles.

 
How do you hide them?

 

It’s under Settings/General/Restrictions (or no General; can’t remember). You can hide any you don’t want to see and then rearrange the ones you have left.

 
1. Why would I care if they store the design? I'm a consumer not the person they copied it from.

 

Right, it’s not like consumers are ever hurt by intellectual property theft¡

 
Can't see anywhere what happens when your subscription ends.

 

I’d imagine you lose access to all the content.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
Reply

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #62 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

What if an AppleTV could offer everything a PS4 or Xbox One has plus...
  • More games
  • Better games
  • Better performance
  • The Apple ecosystem

Tim said before that they weren't interested in the console business and has said they don't need to own a content business because Apple hasn't had an issue getting content and I think he might be serious and not just diverting people away from it.

The Apple TV as it stands uses a processor designed for media playback. It has an older model CPU with cores disabled for low power. To tackle native gaming, that would require putting a much faster modern chip inside. This might push up the cost of the unit. I doubt it would be by much but would be a consideration especially when you have to factor in a $100 controller.

I'd personally hoped they'd be able to make two models, a $99 media unit and a $199 unit that bundled a touch controller.

There's no way that it can have better performance than the big consoles yet but it can outperform the PS3 and 360 and those have the latest GTA 5 on them. The PS4 and XBox One are somewhere between 3-10x faster than the old consoles but the extra performance and memory simply goes into improved visuals, which doesn't affect the game much as you can see here with Tomb Raider on PS3 and the definitive edition coming out in the next few weeks on PS4:



"you can see the actual cloth inside of Lara's t-shirt" lol.gif and why would you be looking in there, executive producer of Tomb Raider?

There's a graphics benchmark for mobile devices and you can see that it would really require the A7 to handle it ok:



In an older benchmark the A7 is roughly on par with the Intel HD 3000. This can play Tomb Raider with the options turned down at 20-30FPS and it would be optimized for the A7:



An A7X with a higher power consumption would help and be fine for a mains device.

One problem is that games like this are over 10GB in size and the Apple TV only has 8GB of storage so it would need both the textures downsampled a bit and 32GB minimum storage to get enough games. Streaming games is an option but making the data center side work is hard.

Then they need to convince games publishers it's worthwhile putting the games in the store. The $99 Apple TV sells 8 million units per year. I'd expect a $199 unit to sell less than that but the big consoles don't sell in huge volumes either. They've done ok recently at around 4 million units each over 2 months and the average for the old consoles was about 10 million per year.

Could they convince people to spend $50-60 on a game for an Apple TV? I doubt it but the advantage is digital distribution so every sale is a first time sale. Publishers can easily sell titles at 1/3 the price and make the same revenue from the same overall audience and publishing for the ATV automatically means it works for an audience that is over 10x the size.

I think the time is right to really get the ball rolling with gaming. The ports of 20 year old games aren't enough, the power is there for modern games and the category is the most profitable category in the App Store.

If they sell a gaming ATV, they need to make their own controller and that's going to annoy 3rd parties. The ATV unit needs to cost more too. It also wouldn't hurt for them to own a content company like a games studio so they can put out exclusives but if they can get that without doing it internally, that's great. They need to do a subscription thing like Netflix though and realise that the exclusive games will persuade people to purchase new hardware. Hardware is where they make their profit and if they can publish modern games that you can't get on equivalent platforms, it helps push people to buy the newer devices.

I'd like to see them put more interest in games. There's a stigma around games that they are just for kids or time wasters but the big AAA immersive games have opened up a whole new experience. They're not like Frogger any more. When they are done right, they have powerful narrative, character development, good voice acting and rich environments.



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post #63 of 65

Fantastic and very informative post as always Marvin. I think you brought up a great idea. A $99 AppleTV which would be a refresh of the current one for media consumption and then a second model perhaps around $199 or even $299 with better specs for games and apps. I doubt it would need to compete with PS4 or Xbox One but if Apple could somehow figure out a way to allow fuller IOS integration to the AppleTV I think they could have a big hit. Casual gamers are potentially a huge market and games like Clash of Clans make as much money as some traditional big game studios now. The biggest challenge I think has always been how do you make apps that are designed for a touch interface easy to use or play on a TV screen. If you use your iPhone or iPad then you would be looking at that display which defeats the purpose. The controller will be the key to the success. 

 

The logitech harmony smart remote has allowed me to turn my iPhone and iPad into a very powerful universal remote that controls my Panasonic TV, Pioneer receiver, PS4, and motorized wall mount for TV, and also my DirecTV DVR. It is a fantastic product and just a few years ago that type of universal remote would have cost around $500. This is the kind of simplicity and ease of use Apple needs to bring to the table with a new Apple TV. Perhaps something similar to control all your devices with your iOS device. 

post #64 of 65
I'll pop back in here to say I think that they will produce two models and one will handle native games ( I can't see games being streamed ). It's important to realise that the 10Gb games will stay, for now, on the "pro" console market. Some of those game devs are locked down by contract to a particular device anyway. Apple will be smart to allow games devs to sell existing iOS games at an upgrade price for full resolution on the Apple TV. But the cost will never be $50 and not more than $5 in most cases.

In iOS 7 they introduced the game controller classes and sprite kit. That's not for nothing. The controllers are ok for an iPhone game but will come into their own for controlling a console. And of course consoles are always sold with controllers. Which answers the UI problem. The controller buttons control it.
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post #65 of 65
Trust me, the UI on other boxes and tv's are much much worse.
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