or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Investors › AAPL Investors › Carl Icahn invests another $500M in Apple, promotes increased buyback in letter to shareholders
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Carl Icahn invests another $500M in Apple, promotes increased buyback in letter to shareholders - Page 2

post #41 of 100
I am torn. On the one hand, many of the things he says in his letter are true. I also agree that Apple should be buying back its shares. That being true, I'm so opposed to short term investors (of which he is one, despite his characterization otherwise, because no investment company is really a long term investor) trying to manage from the shareholder perspective that I will not support his proposal. The only people who have demonstrated a true commitment to Apple's culture, product approach, and management style are the current management and the Board. So I will continue to let them manage this portion of the company too.
post #42 of 100
Quote:

Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

...

 

I like the plan.  I hold 150 shares

I like the plan too and I also hold shares.

 
I don't really understand the hostility on this site towards Icahn.  The difference between what he wants and what the board has already agreed to is just a matter of scale.  All he's doing is making the case that AAPL is a screaming buy, and he's also putting his money where his mouth is.  He may be going a bit too far but maybe not.  He sounds persuasive to me when he says the board is being overly cautious.  
 
I haven't decided if I'm voting yes or no, but regardless, I see Icahn as definitely on Apple's side.  He's an intelligent (if opinionated) billionaire who greatly respects Apple's products and is also very bullish about their future.  I'm very glad he's getting his voice out there.
 
post #43 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

 

I like the plan.  I hold 150 shares

Why would you make such a terrible investment? From your perspective, Apple is a financially mismanaged company yet you invested your own money in them. That makes no sense, so it must mean that it would make no sense to follow your other financial advice.

post #44 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post
 

Then every company should buy back all but one share, no?

 

 

 

No. If the shares are highly valued, it makes more sense to use them as currency, issuing new ones can add value.

 

It's a matter of maximizing value to existing shareholders. 

 

Nothing is simple. Many variables here, obviously. I don't think I like Icahn very much, but he makes some good points.

post #45 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by focher View Post
 

Why would you make such a terrible investment? From your perspective, Apple is a financially mismanaged company yet you invested your own money in them. That makes no sense, so it must mean that it would make no sense to follow your other financial advice.

I think the company might be overly cautious and therefore over-capitalized, but I don't think it's even close to being a mismanaged company.  I think of them as being close to perfect, but it's still possible here and there for some fine-tuning.

post #46 of 100

Apple initiated the largest buyback in corporate history.

Apple has been accelerating that buyback (does no one pay attention to earnings reports?).

Carl Icahn comes along and accuses Apple of not appreciating the value of their company despite the largest buyback in corporate history which they have been accelerating.

If Apple had committed to 50b in 2014 Icahn would be asking for 60b.

This has nothing to do with Apple and more an exercise of whether Icahn can bend the will of the most successful company on earth to his schedule.

 

Icahn is not as prescient as he claims, he would be vastly wealthier if he had invested 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 or any number of years ago other than the brief peak in 2012.

 

I invested when I first heard the iPhone was coming out in 2007 at $80, Icahn needs to realize he is years late to a party that he thinks started when he arrived.

 

And finally, if anyone thinks Icahn is right and doesn't currently own shares of Apple, you are calling yourself an idiot for not investing today.

post #47 of 100
Recently there is a great deal of conversation comparing Apple Amazon , and Google
1. Amazon is lead by an entrepreneur who spent eight years on Wall Street and wrote his business plan driving to Seattle. His financial background is very strong
2. Google is lead by the founders, who created a special class of stock with great voting power as opposed to the traded stock. A VC has been on there board from the beginning
3. Apple is lead by a professional manager with no entrepreneurial background, and strong financial background.. There senior management and Board of Directors have no entrepreneurs. Solution is to put Elon musk on the board! or better yet buy Tesla and make him Chairman of the board. Then the stock will hit Carl Icahn's numbers
But in the meantime thank you Carl for your help!
post #48 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlennC777 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

 
Then every company should buy back all but one share, no?
 


No. If the shares are highly valued, it makes more sense to use them as currency, issuing new ones can add value.

It's a matter of maximizing value to existing shareholders. 

Nothing is simple. Many variables here, obviously. I don't think I like Icahn very much, but he makes some good points.

Your response does not make any sense at all (to me).
post #49 of 100
I am a tax law attorney (NYU LL.M Taxation). Also an avid Apple user since the FIRST days of Steve Jobs - never stopped buying and using.

I also have over $1M of Apple stock, and a lot of options (50 ).

I believe Mr. Cook, Ives et al are doing an OUTSTANDING JOB.

However, we need to reward the employees - and obtain best new engineers - and that is by supporting the stock price.

Mr. Icahn is right-on. Loan/funds are cheap interest wise, repatriation at good rates likely in the future - buy back is urged and warranted - preferably with stock split to encourage small investor to participate

This generates wealth the the engineers that Apple wants to get/keep.

Also - Apple has PLENTY of money to do everything in the world we shareholders want.

Urge all shareholders to vote for proxy - I am at Schwab - called today
post #50 of 100
Originally Posted by nyuestateplanninglawyer View Post
Also - Apple has PLENTY of money to do everything in the world we shareholders want.

 

That’s not a justification, though.

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply
post #51 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by delreyjones View Post

I like the plan too and I also hold shares.
 
I don't really understand the hostility on this site towards Icahn.  The difference between what he wants and what the board has already agreed to is just a matter of scale.  All he's doing is making the case that AAPL is a screaming buy, and he's also putting his money where his mouth is.  He may be going a bit too far but maybe not.  He sounds persuasive to me when he says the board is being overly cautious.  
 
I haven't decided if I'm voting yes or no, but regardless, I see Icahn as definitely on Apple's side.  He's an intelligent (if opinionated) billionaire who greatly respects Apple's products and is also very bullish about their future.  I'm very glad he's getting his voice out there.
 

Not everyone on here has a polarized opinion, and writing that shows a bias on your part. Tim cook never said he won't increase the buy back. Remember, he's the one who came up with the buy back program when others were clamoring for apple to buy more companies. Then, Carl Icahn says he's not doing nearly enough and needs to do more - funny he only said it after the announced buy back, maybe he's jumping on the bandwagon now that it's ok? Sounds typical of what apple deals with. To those who are upset that apple won't tweak their plans for a few billion more or a few percentage points more, if it's such a small difference than why do you care, and why does Icahn care enough to pester apple to their face, the press, the investors, and the whole world every month? The problem with Carl is he's too obvious... gushing about how wonderful of an investment they are, while holding 3 billion worth. He's knows apple has already commited to buying billions, so it's some guarantee on an already solid stock. I don't expect tim cook to do exactly what one investor says. Some people don't think apple is good at communicating with Wall Street, I think Wall Street can never understand apple. There's no point in trying to make Wall Street happy. They'll never be happy. Ever. You want proof... Apple went from the brink of bankruptcy to biggest company in the world, and how many investors shut their mouth and let apple do their thing now? There will always be another new investor who wants to make money on the stock. After Icahn gets out, another new investor will need cook to jump through hoops. The reason you can't listen to Icahn is because of a conflict of interest. The only people who passionately want this are investors. One man sitting on the outside looking in doesn't hold any weight with me. There are many factors going on - Tim cook knows more than him or I, now if tim cook came out and said he's buying back more, that would hold some weight. But for now, the only people who are shaking their head are investors trying to make enough money for their next swimming pool.
post #52 of 100
I think the most dangerous thing that Apple could do is to put itself in a position where they have so much debt that they need to go crawling on hands and knees to the Wall Street bankers and investment community to avoid repatriating foreign profits in order to fund their next major project(s). I believe Icahn is spearheading a campaign with just such a damaging goal in mind.

The consumer electronics market that Apple dominates is both fickle and volatile. Apple should hang on to as much F-You money as they can while keeping investors happy.
Arguing with a troll is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and then strut around acting like he won.
Reply
Arguing with a troll is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and then strut around acting like he won.
Reply
post #53 of 100
I believe Icahn is the greatest threat Apple have ever faced. It looks like a great pump and dump to me.

The revised figure he is demanding (it's only another 16 billion!) is a Trojan Horse. If it is approved, he will ask again and again to take the leverage up to his original $150b - he will use the first approval as a precedent and push it as high as he can.

Once he done this (extracting the maximum personal profit of course) he will dump the shares through a variety of shell companies, simultaneously if possible.

The stock will crash. Then Apple will be massively over leveraged with worthless stock. Shareholder rebellion will lead to a series of company wide restructures, starting with Managment. Once they have left, the wolves will circle, long time product pipelines will evaporate without clear leadership and the ability to buy massive manufacturing resource upfront will dissolve (think bulk NAND purchases for a start) and then it all comes down.
Icahn walks away with a massive profit and we are left with Google and Microsoft.

Just my opinion...
..... the greatest fame comes from adding to human knowledge, not winning battles.
Paraphrased from Napolean Bonaparte, 1798
Reply
..... the greatest fame comes from adding to human knowledge, not winning battles.
Paraphrased from Napolean Bonaparte, 1798
Reply
post #54 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

I agree with everything Carl said. Everything.

 

same here. He did his homework.

post #55 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostkiwi View Post

I believe Icahn is the greatest threat Apple have ever faced. It looks like a great pump and dump to me.

The revised figure he is demanding (it's only another 16 billion!) is a Trojan Horse. If it is approved, he will ask again and again to take the leverage up to his original $150b - he will use the first approval as a precedent and push it as high as he can.

Once he done this (extracting the maximum personal profit of course) he will dump the shares through a variety of shell companies, simultaneously if possible.

The stock will crash. Then Apple will be massively over leveraged with worthless stock. Shareholder rebellion will lead to a series of company wide restructures, starting with Managment. Once they have left, the wolves will circle, long time product pipelines will evaporate without clear leadership and the ability to buy massive manufacturing resource upfront will dissolve (think bulk NAND purchases for a start) and then it all comes down.
Icahn walks away with a massive profit and we are left with Google and Microsoft.

Just my opinion...

 

I don't agree.  From his comments yesterday, he talked to the biggest shareholders and he has a better understanding of the culture around Apple. Stacking cash is a good thing, but at this point enough is enough.

 

The next thing that needs to be address is how to get that oversee cash in the US at a reasonable rate.  Apple is not the only company keeping its cash offshore because of outdated tax laws. If the US wants more investments and new jobs they have to move before companies invest too much in new plants oversee.

post #56 of 100
Float needs to come down as long as Apple is growing. Right now float is way too big. It's a win win for company and shareholders! It cannot be any simpler than this. Do I say no-brainer? lol.gif
post #57 of 100
Apple has been spending a great deal of money in people, plant, and are building a massive building in Cupertino. Someone should be in Washington having them repatriate money if spent on people, plant and equipment. It can be done on a case to case basis. And Both Apple and the US government would be better off.
Carl's main issue is the board, he has no problem with Cook and Ives
And explain why the Chairman of the board of Apple works FULL time as CEO of a company owned by Google
post #58 of 100
Does it surprise anyone that Cook is going on national TV tomorrow one business day before quarterly earnings?
post #59 of 100
Originally Posted by lostkiwi View Post
I believe Icahn is the greatest threat Apple have ever faced.

 

OOH! Idea. When Apple wins the second Apple v. Samsung trial, Samsung’s punishment will be that Icahn is forcibly invested into their company and removed from Apple. :lol:

 

Originally Posted by herbapou View Post
He did his homework.

 

Except in regard to knowing when Apple products came into existence or caring anything about the company at all beyond the piles of green that they sit upon. :no: 

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply

Originally posted by Marvin

Even if [the 5.5” iPhone] exists, it doesn’t deserve to.
Reply
post #60 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostkiwi View Post

I believe Icahn is the greatest threat Apple have ever faced. It looks like a great pump and dump to me.

The revised figure he is demanding (it's only another 16 billion!) is a Trojan Horse. If it is approved, he will ask again and again to take the leverage up to his original $150b - he will use the first approval as a precedent and push it as high as he can.

Once he done this (extracting the maximum personal profit of course) he will dump the shares through a variety of shell companies, simultaneously if possible.

The stock will crash. Then Apple will be massively over leveraged with worthless stock. Shareholder rebellion will lead to a series of company wide restructures, starting with Managment. Once they have left, the wolves will circle, long time product pipelines will evaporate without clear leadership and the ability to buy massive manufacturing resource upfront will dissolve (think bulk NAND purchases for a start) and then it all comes down.
Icahn walks away with a massive profit and we are left with Google and Microsoft.

Just my opinion...

 

Why would $150bn make Apple massively overleveraged?  That's around 5 years income (at current levels, not taking into account reduced dividend payments) in cash, a large part of which they could cover with reserves if they chose to repatriate (they wouldn't, they'd issue a bond to avoid the repatriation tax).

 

That's not overleveraged.  It's barely leveraged at all.

 

And there are no rules of precedent in shareholders meetings, Icahn won't get any increased traction in an argument for buying back shares with "but they did it before".  Every decision on its own merits, and while Apple can currently easily afford a bigger buyback, that clearly doesn't extend forever.

 

FUD.

 

 

Good move from Icahn, shows confidence in the company, lends weight to his argument, which is a good one.  Apple is undervalued, still has lots of growth potential, and a bigger share buy back would capitalise on that value for shareholders.  The limit on the share buyback should be how much free cash Apple needs for security and to execute its strategy, and no way is that anywhere near its current levels.

censored

Reply

censored

Reply
post #61 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

 
I agree with everything Carl said. Everything.

same here. He did his homework.

Why don't you share it with us in your own words?

The previous explanation I got in this thread didn't help much at all.
Edited by anantksundaram - 1/23/14 at 6:40pm
post #62 of 100
I don't think he is stuck on buy back only. He they announced that they were buying Tesla, and making Elon Musk ,Chairman of the Board, he would be quite happy.
post #63 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post


The next thing that needs to be address is how to get that oversee cash in the US at a reasonable rate.  Apple is not the only company keeping its cash offshore because of outdated tax laws. If the US wants more investments and new jobs they have to move before companies invest too much in new plants oversee.

Hmm.... What a brilliant idea. I am sure no one has thought of it.

Why don't you write to Congress? Maybe they'll listen to herbapou.
post #64 of 100
I think Apple has about 80,000 employees. And they have the opportunity to buy Apple stock at a discount of 15% plus at the lowest price for the quarter. That would make it about 20%. They are limited to 10% of the wages. Do you think this program creates a important group of long term investors?
But I thought investing 101 suggests that your mission is to buy undervalued companies, and keep them until you have a better opportunity.
I do not understand all the unhappiness with Icahn. What he did at TWA many years ago may have been wrong, but what has he done lately that is so bad
post #65 of 100
I agree with you 100%. Google, Apple, HP, and the drug companies should join forces and hire a lobbyist to help them, get it done.
post #66 of 100
Have any of you wondered how Crazy Carl is buying the stock? I'm pretty sure he didn't have it sitting in a bank account. He's selling other shares for a better investment. What do you think will happen if he finds a better investment than Apple? He ain't in it for the long term.
post #67 of 100
What is the long term?
One year according to the IRS
Do you think Apple has to explain their thinking on having the excess cash and credit?
Why is their PE so low compared to Google and Amazon and the S&P?
post #68 of 100

Icahn is everywhere these days! I read a couple of days ago about him meddling into Ebay & Paypal

Carl Icahn Wants eBay to Spin Off PayPal
Read more: Carl Icahn Wants eBay to Spin Off PayPal | TIME.com http://business.time.com/2014/01/22/icahn-ebay-paypal/#ixzz2rHnpTojT
 

post #69 of 100
So that Apple can buy it?
Sounds good to me
post #70 of 100
I am glad that ICahn is not Jewish or black. That confirms that the unhappiness is rational.

P
P
post #71 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post
 

I agree with everything Carl said. Everything.

 

Me too.  

 

The buyback should have been much larger in the $400s but even now the stock price is still well below intrinsic value.   They should be backing up the truck.

post #72 of 100
I agree 100%
post #73 of 100
And Apple management has inside information, until they buy the shares that they announced until 2015
post #74 of 100
Just out of curiosity, how much cost to buy one share? I'm interest in buying that one. I'm very n00b with invest stuff and would love to own like .000000000001% of Apple, Inc. lol 1smile.gif

Please excuse my lame English grammar. American Sign Language is my first language and English's the second.
Tallest Skill, you can edit my English grammar for me. My English grammar sucks! lol

Reply

Please excuse my lame English grammar. American Sign Language is my first language and English's the second.
Tallest Skill, you can edit my English grammar for me. My English grammar sucks! lol

Reply
post #75 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

I don't agree.  From his comments yesterday, he talked to the biggest shareholders and he has a better understanding of the culture around Apple. Stacking cash is a good thing, but at this point enough is enough.

The next thing that needs to be address is how to get that oversee cash in the US at a reasonable rate.  Apple is not the only company keeping its cash offshore because of outdated tax laws. If the US wants more investments and new jobs they have to move before companies invest too much in new plants oversee.
Disagree with you on the first point there. Realistically he is not going to say to the world; Hey guys, guess what? I'm going to trick everyone into helping me destroy Apple, and them walk away with billions while all the suckers are left holding the bag.
He will say what he needs to say to get the job done. Long term investor he is not.

Totally with you on the second point though. Well said!
..... the greatest fame comes from adding to human knowledge, not winning battles.
Paraphrased from Napolean Bonaparte, 1798
Reply
..... the greatest fame comes from adding to human knowledge, not winning battles.
Paraphrased from Napolean Bonaparte, 1798
Reply
post #76 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

Have any of you wondered how Crazy Carl is buying the stock? I'm pretty sure he didn't have it sitting in a bank account. He's selling other shares for a better investment. What do you think will happen if he finds a better investment than Apple? He ain't in it for the long term.

That still doesn't make him wrong.  What works for the short term doesn't necessarily conflict with what works for the long term.  Icahn selling his shares when he thinks that Apple has achieved its value wouldn't cause a crash like some are suggesting.  It'd dip maybe, just like it does ever other day on the newest bad rumour, but Icahn doesn't own enough for his trades to be so influential as to cause any panic.

censored

Reply

censored

Reply
post #77 of 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

its not burning money.

Jesus, you guys need to read a book on finance before you make yourself look stupid.
Do a search on the benefits of a buyback.

If it was burning money why did the Apple board APPROVE BURNING $60,000,000,000 in Buybacks last year!!!!!! 

Finance is so boring and one of the big evils of the world.
And I personally don't like gamblers.
You should focus on your lack of imagination.
post #78 of 100
Carl Icahn sees nothing except money. If making it means destroying companies, he does it with abandon. The best example is TWA. He made around $470 million in personal profit . . . . and left TWA with $540 million in additional debt. There is no possible way in which that can be defended from an economic point of view -- Carl Icahn stole from the entire rest of the economy, because he could.

Just as we should have asked 20 years ago whether the mobility of everyone who works and lives in St. Louis -- TWA's hub that has now lost more than half its business -- was more important than Carl Icahn's bank account, we should be asking the same of Apple. There will always be at least some who want to cash out, and those people will no doubt be salivating over what Icahn is doing, but let's hope like heck that it doesn't cover 50 percent of those who are bothered to vote. If you want Apple to continue producing for you, as someone who uses technology or as someone who owns their stock, in ten or even five years time, run like hell from this deal.
post #79 of 100

That is such a reductive argument.  Judge the proposal on its own merits, not on the 20 year old demerits of the proposer.

censored

Reply

censored

Reply
post #80 of 100
So, Icahn acknowledges that investment analysts don't understanding Apple's underlying business approach, which it to put the consumer first, not the shareholders.

If you put the shareholder's first, you will be a slave to quarterly profits, and the first good buyout opportunity. Products come second. They are simply a means to the end of reaping as much money as possible for the moment.

Apple's approach says "if we make the best quality products, with the best user interface, then profits and sales will come". Sort of the better mousetrap approach. Wall street and Icahn reject this approach. Icahn does not understand how to do business this way.

Neither did Amelio, or whats his name. Under their "conventional" leadership Apple almost went out of business.

So, who do I want directing Apple's activities - Icahn, or Cook and crew.

No brainer.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: AAPL Investors
AppleInsider › Forums › Investors › AAPL Investors › Carl Icahn invests another $500M in Apple, promotes increased buyback in letter to shareholders