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Tim Cook admits iPhone 5c share lower than expected, says demand was 'different than we thought' - Page 3

post #81 of 179
Originally Posted by karmadave View Post
Admit that the 5c was a mistake.

 

It wasn’t. The only mistake was in letting anyone, in even the slightest amount, think it was a new device.

post #82 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

It wasn’t. The only mistake was in letting anyone, in even the slightest amount, think it was a new device.

Maybe so. But the product was not priced or positioned correctly IMHO. Plus Apple broke from their habit of keeping last years model around when introducing this years. Why not just keep the 5 around? Why the multi-colors? Most users use a case anyway to customize the device. Apple even sells a colored case for their colored phone 1hmm.gif
post #83 of 179
Originally Posted by karmadave View Post
Plus Apple broke from their habit of keeping last years model around when introducing this years. 

 

Are you crazy? What on earth do you think the 5C is?

post #84 of 179

I'm not sure we have enough crow to go around!

post #85 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by karmadave View Post


Maybe so. But the product was not priced or positioned correctly IMHO. Plus Apple broke from their habit of keeping last years model around when introducing this years. Why not just keep the 5 around? Why the multi-colors? Most users use a case anyway to customize the device. Apple even sells a colored case for their colored phone 1hmm.gif

 

You're not wrong. It was a mistake.

 

It still doesn't stop these guys on AI from thinking that you can put all these really bright guys from Apple in a room and everything from here to eternity will come up smelling like roses.

 

Hopefully something was learned. Hopefully the team at Apple isn't having a head scratching moment. Hopefully they'll just move on knowing that there batting average is still really good... just not 1000.

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post #86 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Are you crazy? What on earth do you think the 5C is?

 

I will ignore the first question and answer the second one. The 5c is a 5 with a few minor tweaks, a plastic case, and multiple colors. Most 'enthusiasts' see it for what it is. However, the 'average' consumer doesn't know or care. They just want the best value for their dollar. Compared to the 5c, the 5s is a MUCH better value. The real issue, in my opinion, is that the 5c is a distraction. Why bring out the same, with a few colors when you could have either kept the 5, as is, or replaced it with a larger sized handset. Apple is doing pretty well overall, but I think they are 'leaving money on the table' by not appealing to those consumers who want a larger handset. Many consumers, such as myself, have held off upgrading until Apple brings out a larger model. My company gave me a Samsung G3 and the ONLY thing I like about it (besides not seeing the bill) is the larger size. YMMV...

post #87 of 179

I like the 5c. It feels really nice in the hand. The colors are are pretty cool, other than the odd pink/orange.  I bought the 5c when it came out and but I sold it for $400 and bought the 5s instead. 

Some people cringe a little when they look at the colors...that's ok, they have a 4s or 5s for alternatives. 

 

The ONLY reason people thought this was a "cheap" phone is because ever rumor site in the world, including this one, all got wind of a "plastic" phone and started all these rumors that Apple was designing a Cheap phone for emerging markets.

People were confused when it turned out to be an iPhone 5 with a polycarbonate shell and wasn't "cheap" like all the rumor sites said it would be. 

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post #88 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by karmadave View Post
 

 

I will ignore the first question and answer the second one. The 5c is a 5 with a few minor tweaks, a plastic case, and multiple colors. Most 'enthusiasts' see it for what it is. However, the 'average' consumer doesn't know or care. They just want the best value for their dollar. Compared to the 5c, the 5s is a MUCH better value. The real issue, in my opinion, is that the 5c is a distraction. Why bring out the same, with a few colors when you could have either kept the 5, as is, or replaced it with a larger sized handset. Apple is doing pretty well overall, but I think they are 'leaving money on the table' by not appealing to those consumers who want a larger handset. Many consumers, such as myself, have held off upgrading until Apple brings out a larger model. My company gave me a Samsung G3 and the ONLY thing I like about it (besides not seeing the bill) is the larger size. YMMV...

 

which makes me think that maybe Apple, in all their cleverness, knew that it would drive people to the 5s, and that was the plan from the beginning.... I mean... FIFTY-ONE MILLION iPhones sold in a single quarter.

 

And roughly 2/3 of those were iPhone 5s...... um, yeah?

post #89 of 179
There was a lot of talk about the 5C being for the China market where people supposedly couldn't afford a 5S. This was wrong. People can afford it, but more importantly it has no prestige and has a too small a screen. They would be better to quickly scrap it, make the 5s the entry phone and have 2 big screen phones. Everyone in Asia has big screens now.
post #90 of 179

I was saying couple of months ago here that iPhone 5c is a flop and no one's is buying it, because it's to expensive for what it is, everyone's started to attack me. Now here's the result. It's not it's a bad phone but it's too expensive. It should be 100$ or more less then maybe it would sell on emerging market and people who really can't afford the flagship iPhone. But most who can throw 500$ for new phone, can also throw 600 and they will rather throw 600 and get all the neat new stuff that 5S offers.

post #91 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

You're a little confused. Optimal pricing is not about selling more units or generating more revenue, it's about maximizing profit, or long term profitability if you wish. You're saying that if Apple had priced the 5c lower then 5c sales would have taken off. But what does that do to 5s sales? And over all profitability? We don't know, so we don't have any basis for judging if bad price management really occurred.

I'm not really that confused. I know the pricing was wrong because the CEO of the company said it was. He said demand wasn't as expected, therefore they got the price wrong. As for a cheaper iPhone 5C reducing sales of the 5S, that's purely speculative. What we can say for certain is that all buyers of the 5S could afford to buy a 5S. The people who bought neither might ( and many probably would) have bought a cheaper 5c.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post

which makes me think that maybe Apple, in all their cleverness, knew that it would drive people to the 5s, and that was the plan from the beginning.... I mean... FIFTY-ONE MILLION iPhones sold in a single quarter.

And roughly 2/3 of those were iPhone 5s...... um, yeah?

Apple didn't design the 5C to make the 5S look good. That's not their design strategy.
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post #92 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sporlo View Post

Touch ID did not excite me. It's more tedious to use than a passcode.
I take it you don't own a 5s then? Seriously just pushing the home button & having your phone unlock is far easier (& quicker) than turning on the screen & entering your pass code.
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post #93 of 179
All of us who said at launch that the iPhone 5c is a nice product but that it's priced too high have been proven right.

Got flamed by a lot of people for saying it at the time though.

No one but an idiot would buy the 5c over the 5s at the base point pricing.

Still, a lot of really good deals have started to emerge whereby phone companies are trying to move their unsold inventory and at the new pricing it's become quite tempting.

The 5c is a really nice device, it's just that Apple was greedy.
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post #94 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical View Post
 

 

which makes me think that maybe Apple, in all their cleverness, knew that it would drive people to the 5s, and that was the plan from the beginning.... I mean... FIFTY-ONE MILLION iPhones sold in a single quarter.

 

And roughly 2/3 of those were iPhone 5s...... um, yeah?

 

So the 5C easily outsold the nine million Galaxy S4's which Samsung reported as sold last quarter and pretty much every other smartphone except for the 5S.

 

What "fail"?

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post #95 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lerxt View Post

There was a lot of talk about the 5C being for the China market where people supposedly couldn't afford a 5S. This was wrong. People can afford it, but more importantly it has no prestige and has a too small a screen. They would be better to quickly scrap it, make the 5s the entry phone and have 2 big screen phones. Everyone in Asia has big screens now.

 

Apple sold 51 million iPhones, Samsung "shipped" 86 million "smartphones" but only nine million were Galaxy S4's.

 

The market has spoken, iPhone and smaller sized screens dominate sales.

 

Enough with the "big screen" crap already.

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post #96 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


I'm not really that confused. I know the pricing was wrong because the CEO of the company said it was. He said demand wasn't as expected, therefore they got the price wrong. As for a cheaper iPhone 5C reducing sales of the 5S, that's purely speculative. What we can say for certain is that all buyers of the 5S could afford to buy a 5S. The people who bought neither might ( and many probably would) have bought a cheaper 5c.
Apple didn't design the 5C to make the 5S look good. That's not their design strategy.

 

What we know for certain is the 5C comfortably outsold all Samsung's high end smartphones last quarter.

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post #97 of 179
Quote:
"I think the 5s, people are really intrigued with Touch ID," Cook said. "It's a major feature that has excited people. And I think that associated with the other things that are unique to the 5s, got the 5s to have a significant amount more attention and a higher mix of sales.""People are really intrigued with Touch ID" - Apple CEO Tim Cook on why the iPhone 5s has proven more popular than the 5c.

 

"People are really intrigued with Touch ID" I get it! I get it! So next year's 5C (if there is one) will have Touch ID at the same price. Of course this year's 5C will drop down the hierarchy and will be cheaper. Same procedure as last year, James. 

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post #98 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

I'm not really that confused. I know the pricing was wrong because the CEO of the company said it was. He said demand wasn't as expected, therefore they got the price wrong. As for a cheaper iPhone 5C reducing sales of the 5S, that's purely speculative. What we can say for certain is that all buyers of the 5S could afford to buy a 5S. The people who bought neither might ( and many probably would) have bought a cheaper 5c.

The number of people that is described by your last sentence above is purely speculative as well. And the sentence before that is a tautology. We can be fairly confident which way 5s and 5c unit sales will go if 5c prices fall, but how that affects profits for both phones -- that one is purely speculative on our part. See, none of us have the detailed sales figures that Apple has so I would trust their judgement on pricing rather than either of ours. And they still made a mistake in their demand forecast.

And no, just because the CEO admitted that they misjudged demand , that doesn't mean they mispriced it. They mispriced it if the goal is simply to sell more 5cs, but you know that's not the goal. The goal is to maximize profitability across their product line, probably with the strong caveat of not diluting their aspirational brand image by selling something 'cheap'. What they hoped to do was an iPhone version of the iPod Mini which was to sell to a different segment, one that would love the colorful design and would be willing to pay a premium for it. Obviously they overestimated the size of that submarket.

The airtight indicator that they mispriced it is if they dropped the price. They still might, but until they do, we can't conclude that they had a pricing error.
Edited by tundraboy - 1/28/14 at 2:50am
post #99 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


You do realise no phone is actually free?

 

 

Though that's true, each company handles the cost differently. I recently changed my phone from an iPhone 4 to an iPhone 5s and am paying less than I was before getting it (with the same company). The decision was actually quite simple to make, and made it free in spite of the fact that it's not actually "free".

 

iPhone 5c = 0€ (+ 20€ less a month and a better plan –unlimited minutes to all operators, unlimited sms to all operators, unlimited internet with full 4G speed up to 1.2GB and slow speed after that)

iPhone 5s = 19€ (+ 20€ less a month and a better plan –unlimited minutes to all operators, unlimited sms to all operators, unlimited internet with full 4G speed up to 1.2GB and slow speed after that)

 

For 19€ (and as with the 5c, for 20€ LESS a month than I was paying with the iPhone 4), I got Apple's flagship iPhone with Touch ID, the upgraded camera sensor, processor and all the rest of it.

 

Now, why would anyone want an iPhone 5c under these conditions? You'd be getting a great phone, sure, but with yesterday's technology. Not only that, but its Apple "allowed" lifespan would logically be shorter than the 5s. Also, I can add the exact same color to my 5s with a 2€ gel (or an Apple leather one for 32€), and have the front face in white instead of black (the 5c is only available in black).

 

Just pondering...

post #100 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

IT WAS NOT A CHEAP PHONE. IT WAS NOT MARKETED AS A CHEAP PHONE. IT WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A CHEAP PHONE.


What, will we still be saying this a year later? Get it through your skulls. Come on.

For once, I agree with you, except I am not convinced they will bring it back in September.

post #101 of 179
It is evident that it's price should have been a 100 less both dollar or euros, you can buy a nice phone from samsung plastic built for 200 euros so what's the point to spend 400 more for a device that changes every year. It does not look bad but the price is definetly too high, that's the only reason. The other issue why sells are below expectation, is the absurd logic of the ex king of the market pretending his ideas are always ahead. This screen size is an absurdy, if you strech it why you don't enlarge it. It would have been perfect to make it larger of one icon both ways. It's not so hard to think. But when you want to be different on the basis of stupid ego that does not work.
I love apple but i am starting to like their competitors, actually now i have a samsung with a fantastic screen even if if OS is not good and the camera sucks but quality price is better than Apple.
All I can see is that Apple is becoming only a greedy company with product that are lowering their quality even if they are the best of the market.
Apple you are the leader of the market but you are making the same mistake of many years ago. You need to be revolutionary and not conservative. You think you have a schedule but that changes always and your capacity of adjustement to the present needs is lacking. 3 years before getting a bigger screen is too much. There you have lost the supremacy of the market. And it is such a stupid issue to solve.
I give you a tip get as soon as you can with 4K revolucion.. next i mac 4k there you'll take a step ahead. About the final cut X you made a big big mistake. You have somuch money to invest and create wonderful things don't ruin them. I know I'am talking without knowing but it is evident that besides your products are woderful something is wrong with the agenda.
You have so many fans all you have to do is to listen to them. These are all suggestion for free, is the payoff for the inspirations you made possible, don't waste it.

For example how long you are waiting to transfer the touch tech to the computers, like in an hybrid way .. or give the ipad the best camera as it has an incredible screen or stopping with this nonsense of the entry level of 16gb that is useless.
The idea of making both ipads with the same feautures it was amazing, that's the way.
Now you have achieved speed on the ipad just give better micrphones cameras and speakers, and wow. And raise the pixel density, that is another thing that competitors have understand is going to be your weak point. We people love definition and it's the main thing now with the UHD starting this year.

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post #102 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by r4d4 View Post
 

I like the 5c. It feels really nice in the hand. The colors are are pretty cool, other than the odd pink/orange.  I bought the 5c when it came out and but I sold it for $400 and bought the 5s instead.

 

So, you liked the 5c, but not enough to hold onto it. Interesting.

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post #103 of 179
On the conference call Cook said the 5C is selling better than the 4S has at this point last year. He also said it was attracting first time iPhone buyers. Looks like it's doing exactly what Apple wanted it to. What seems to be the issue is Apple underestimated the demand for the 5S, at least in North America. IMO the 5S is the biggest step up in an iPhone since it's existence. The 5S is a really great phone. So perhaps it's less about people not liking the 5C but wanting the 5S more. I know I just got one recently and I love it. Touch ID is fantastic and works like a charm.
Edited by Rogifan - 1/28/14 at 4:20am
post #104 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

All of us who said at launch that the iPhone 5c is a nice product but that it's priced too high have been proven right.

Got flamed by a lot of people for saying it at the time though.

No one but an idiot would buy the 5c over the 5s at the base point pricing.

Still, a lot of really good deals have started to emerge whereby phone companies are trying to move their unsold inventory and at the new pricing it's become quite tempting.

The 5c is a really nice device, it's just that Apple was greedy.
If Apple had kept the iPhone 5 instead of producing the 5C would you say the 5 was overpriced? Did people say the 4 was overpriced when the 4S came out or the 4S when the 5 came out? Or are you just saying this because the shell is plastic and not aluminum?
post #105 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post

The number of people that is described by your last sentence above is purely speculative as well. And the sentence before that is a tautology. We can be fairly confident which way 5s and 5c unit sales will go if 5c prices fall, but how that affects profits for both phones -- that one is purely speculative on our part. See, none of us have the detailed sales figures that Apple has so I would trust their judgement on pricing rather than either of ours. And they still made a mistake in their demand forecast.

And no, just because the CEO admitted that they misjudged demand , that doesn't mean they mispriced it. They mispriced it if the goal is simply to sell more 5cs, but you know that's not the goal. The goal is to maximize profitability across their product line, probably with the strong caveat of not diluting their aspirational brand image by selling something 'cheap'. What they hoped to do was an iPhone version of the iPod Mini which was to sell to a different segment, one that would love the colorful design and would be willing to pay a premium for it. Obviously they overestimated the size of that submarket.

The airtight indicator that they mispriced it is if they dropped the price. They still might, but until they do, we can't conclude that they had a pricing error.
When Apple took last years phone and dropped it $100 no one ever seemed to complain that it was too expensive, or was "last years tech". Why now is the 5C too expensive when it has the same or better internals than the 5? Just because they changed the case to plastic?
post #106 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


When Apple took last years phone and dropped it $100 no one ever seemed to complain that it was too expensive, or was "last years tech". Why now is the 5C too expensive when it has the same or better internals than the 5? Just because they changed the case to plastic?

Because people associate the build quality and materials of the iPhone 5/5s as coinciding with a premium product, just as one associates hand stitched leather seats etc on a car as coinciding with a premium product.

 

Same internals, cheap shell. It's a great handset with a nice level of build quality, but it is not priced correctly which is the reason it has not sold as well as expected.

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post #107 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

Because people associate the build quality and materials of the iPhone 5/5s as coinciding with a premium product, just as one associates hand stitched leather seats etc on a car as coinciding with a premium product.

Same internals, cheap shell. It's a great handset with a nice level of build quality, but it is not priced correctly which is the reason it has not sold as well as expected.
So basically it's all about the case being plastic and not anodized aluminum. So how is it then that Apple had no problem selling two flagship iPhones (3G and 3GS) that were plastic (and build quality not anything like the 5C)? Plastic was OK under Steve Jobs but not Tim Cook?
post #108 of 179

As others have pointed out, I don't think the 5C was intended to be a cheaper version of the iPhone, it was intended to be a more colourful version. Similar to when they only had the black and white iPods and they introduced all the colours.

 

I don't think it's a Tim Cook stuff up but a Jony Ive one, if people didn't like the design. I think Jony Ive likes materials to be "true to themselves" so when he used plastic he made it really really plastic-y looking, like primary colours type thing. And people didn't like that.

post #109 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


So basically it's all about the case being plastic and not anodized aluminum. So how is it then that Apple had no problem selling two flagship iPhones (3G and 3GS) that were plastic (and build quality not anything like the 5C)? Plastic was OK under Steve Jobs but not Tim Cook?

Those cases were plastic but not plastic-y. They were understated and classy.

post #110 of 179
True. But I don't see why muted plastic colors aren't true to themselves.
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post #111 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

True. But I don't see why muted plastic colors aren't true to themselves.

Because plastic is a very artificial/manufactured thing, so for it to be true to itself, when you're choosing what colour to make it, you would make it a totally artificial looking colour.

post #112 of 179
Ok. Well I suppose the 5S being made of hemp and cabbage doesn't have the artificiality problem so they could mute the colors.
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post #113 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Ok. Well I suppose the 5S being made of hemp and cabbage doesn't have the artificiality problem so they could mute the colors.

Well, yes, the whole thing is manufactured. But to me plastic is special - it's like the poster child of the artificial.

post #114 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Those cases were plastic but not plastic-y. They were understated and classy.
Wow, that's some RDF you got going there. lol.gif
post #115 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Because plastic is a very artificial/manufactured thing, so for it to be true to itself, when you're choosing what colour to make it, you would make it a totally artificial looking colour.
How does one define "artificial looking" color? What makes the 5C colors artificial?
post #116 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


So basically it's all about the case being plastic and not anodized aluminum. So how is it then that Apple had no problem selling two flagship iPhones (3G and 3GS) that were plastic (and build quality not anything like the 5C)? Plastic was OK under Steve Jobs but not Tim Cook?

Not at all, I felt that the quality and design dropped greatly from the original iPhone to the cheap design of the iPhone 3G/s. I owned a 3Gs as I wanted the speed and hardware features that it offered and waited in line for the iPhone 4 launch.

 

In my opinion Apple made the iPhone 5c plastic for two major reasons. First to free up materials for the iPhone 5s, this was a smart move. Second to cut down on costs and increase their profit margins, looks smart in the board meetings and back fired in reality.

 

Go on about the only difference being plastic as much as you want, but that does not change the fact that it is cheaper to manufacture and is seen as cheap and standard by the average person.

 

They over priced the 5c, plain and simple. Hasn't stopped me buying a blue one for my wife, she is not fussed about features as such and although she wanted the 5s she was ok with having the plastic shell and decided she could live with it.

 

We got it because the contract worked out less over 24 months than buying the phone outright from Apple and equaled a £300 saving over 24 months on getting her an iPhone 5s, based on that type of saving the 5c became a "good" buy.

 

But no way on this planet would we have paid the initial contract/buy it now pricing. Only an idiot would try and save less than a £100 and buy the 5c.

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post #117 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

According to who? The 5C got good reviews from all the tech sites. Engadget said it was the best feeling plastic phone they ever reviewed. The Verge said Samsung and LG should take note that the 5C is how you do plastic. The 5C is nor cheap plastic.

According to many here that ridiculed the other manufacturers for still using 'cheap' plastic. Personally I don't have a problem with it and I much prefer the feel of plastic in my hand than hard metal edges.
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post #118 of 179
Apple should hire me as a consultant or at least for a focus group. I warned from the start that the 5c would bomb with everyone except perhaps young teen girls of the Hello Kitty sort. It simply wasn't that appealing.

I doubt its failure had much to do with TouchID. Most people I know leave their phone unlocked. For those for whom appearance matters, the 5c was ho-hum, no different from dozens of other smartphones. For those who want power and features, the 5s was twice the phone for only about $100 more. Over a two-year lifespan, the difference in cost was mere pennies a day.

If Tim Cook had asked me, I'd have suggesting keeping the iPhone 5's marvelous appearance, but tweaking the inside so it could be made and sell for significantly less than a 5s. But even that is a poor move. Remember, the real cost of any iPhone is that cellular contract. With cellular subsidies, there's simply not enough price cutting in the price available to matter.


Apple has missed the boat on diversifying its product line. It should look more closely at what its customers do and match their needs.

1. Buying battery extenders. Make a EL (for Extended Live) version of the iPhone (and MBA) that trades being a bit thicker for twice the battery life. Make that battery easily to replace when it begins to fade too.

2. Buying protector cases. Make a Sport model that's drop-proof to about 12 feet and waterproof to say 30 feet. You might even design it to meet military specs like amateur radio, marine, and commercial handheld radios are now made. There are a lot of outdoor-active people who'd love such a phone and pay extra for it.

Note that both those suggestions are for iPhones that Apple could sell for more money. Apple can diversify without joining a race to the bottom.

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post #119 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkling View Post

Apple should hire me as a consultant or at least for a focus group. I warned from the start that the 5c would bomb with everyone except perhaps young teen girls of the Hello Kitty sort. It simply wasn't that appealing.

I doubt its failure had much to do with TouchID. Most people I know leave their phone unlocked. For those for whom appearance matters, the 5c was ho-hum, no different from dozens of other smartphones. For those who want power and features, the 5s was twice the phone for only about $100 more. Over a two-year lifespan, the difference in cost was mere pennies a day.

[... and a bunch of other stuff.]

--Michael W. Perry, Inkling Books, Auburn, AL

 

Let's set this straight. The 5c was not a failure. The 5c just did not live up to Apple's expectations. By any other standards, the 5c sold better than every other phone on the planet except the 5s... but, 5c sales did not fill the gap that Apple was hoping it would fill. (I'm sure Apple was hoping for another 7-10 million sales)

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post #120 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


How does one define "artificial looking" color? What makes the 5C colors artificial?

I mean not occurring in nature. Or looking like they're man made.

 

Obviously red and green and such occur in nature, but neon colours look man made. I'm sure with enough Googling you could find some obscure parrot or undersea creature that looks neon, but most people won't have seen it, so to most people those colours will suggest "man made" which is the plastic being truthful to the viewer about it's origins.

 


Edited by ascii - 1/28/14 at 7:38am
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