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Wall Street concerned by lower-than-expected iPhone sales in Apple's holiday quarter - Page 2

post #41 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob53 View Post

You do realize that numbers can be manipulated by anyone. In the early days of the iPhone it was easy to have 50% growth YoY because there were much fewer iPhones. Now there are millions of iPhones. Growth of 6.7% can easily be the equivalent number of iPhones as 50% was a couple years ago. Apple is selling iPhones but it gets more difficult to sell the same percentage more every year. This is simple math.
So what's your point. You are simply making the case that the Apple naysayers have been making which is that Apple will run into the problem of large numbers. I was hoping Apple would last longer and that it would figure out a way to grow even when it saturated the high end. Their first attempt failed. And they admitted that it failed even by their measures. Where does Apple go from here? What's the plan? Failing on plan 1 is not a good sign.
post #42 of 170

3 million growth (could be less, could be more depending on the channel inventory) for the best company in the world is something to be ashamed of. Apple doesn't need cheaper phones... In fact, Apple could sell even more devices, even more expensive, if those devices were made with the current and future necessities in mind, instead of looking at the past: A bigger screen!

 

IF they want growth (if) on the smartphone arena (and profits, not market for the sake of it), they need a slightly bigger screen for those that for some reason demand one hand operation as top priority, and another, even if more expensive, iphone line for the 50 million of us that preferred equally expensive devices from other OEMs because they are 100x better as mobile computers. (obviously phones smaller than 5.7", like the note).

post #43 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

Microsoft reported record earnings this month. Would you say MS is growing? If Apple sold even one more phone then lat year they technically grew, but that's not what I consider to be growth. If growth is in the single digits and less than the market, that isn't "growth"
Wall Street didn't have inflated expectations. They had reasonable expectations for growth. Do you really believe Apple had expectations for 6.7% growth? I don't understand how you could think these result are anything but disappointing.
You can't compare the overall growth of the phone market to Apple when Apple doesn't play in every segment. The segment that is growing is the low end, but no one has proven that the low end is profitable.

IMO, Apple's biggest worry should be the large percentage of revenues that come from one product - iPhone. They need something new or need to do something significant with the iPad to increase its share of the pie. It's never good when a company is too dependent on one revenue stream.
post #44 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by pedromartins View Post

3 million growth (could be less, could be more depending on the channel inventory) for the best company in the world is something to be ashamed of. Apple doesn't need cheaper phones... In fact, Apple could sell even more devices, even more expensive, if those devices were made with the current and future necessities in mind, instead of looking at the past: A bigger screen!

IF they want growth (if) on the smartphone arena (and profits, not market for the sake of it), they need a slightly bigger screen for those that for some reason demand one hand operation as top priority, and another, even if more expensive, iphone line for the 50 million of us that preferred equally expensive devices from other OEMs because they are 100x better as mobile computers. (obviously phones smaller than 5.7", like the note).
Apple's fortunes are too dependent on the iphone IMO. I mean they a great quarter but because sales of one product didn't meant wall streets estimates the stock is down 8%. iPhone is over 50% of Apple's revenues. That's not a good thing. I'm curious to see what they will bring to market that can generate enough revenues to bring the iPhone dependence down. I can't see a smart watch or the $99 Apple TV box doing it.
post #45 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob53 View Post
 

You do realize that numbers can be manipulated by anyone. In the early days of the iPhone it was easy to have 50% growth YoY because there were much fewer iPhones. Now there are millions of iPhones. Growth of 6.7% can easily be the equivalent number of iPhones as 50% was a couple years ago. Apple is selling iPhones but it gets more difficult to sell the same percentage more every year. This is simple math.

 

Which is exactly what the other guy said.

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post #46 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvigod View Post

The bottom line painful truth for stockholders and Cook makes this very clear by his actions is that they don't care about the stock.  Cook and his executives have already cashed out their options as soon as they vested, holding very few options or none at all.  They have made 10's and 100's of millions already.  Their goal is to keep the company running.  Maybe not growing but running.  Great products are their goal.  Not great numbers.  Good for consumers who want their stuff but for shareholders not so great.

Doing a 100B plus buyback at this price as Icahn says is a no brainer.  If you owned apple privately and it was you and one partner.  The partner comes to you and says he'll offer you 20% more of his share for 8 times net profit you would be crazy to do it.  Furthermore he tells you he'll finance the buyout for you at just 3%!  This is how incredibly stupid Cook, Oppenheimer and the entire board are regarding this opportunity.

That said, perhaps they all see something nobody else does?  A not very bright future for apple. Maybe they feel this is the heyday and bad times await so they do a token buyback to shut people up right now.   What other explanation is there.  They seem intelligent enough to not be able to understand how this is in fact a no brainer.

Icahn was almost right about the buyback.  His original amount was too low.  At 500/share apple should go to the finance community, borrow 250B at 3% (comes to 2% net after they expense the interest out) and buy back half the company.  EPS would double to 85/share for 2014.  A PE of just 10 which is all anyone will give them gets them to 850 and we'll exclude all cash or debt since no investor gives credit for either (yeah they are that stupid and so are the fund managers...really).
Agree completely. This is a stockholder issue (and I own Apple stock). I talked to an Apple engineer over the holiday break and he was genuinely excited about the product pipeline. I'm looking forward to more great Apple products, but that doesn't mean Apple is going to make more money. Shareholders were fine with Apple accumulating cash when Apple was growing. Well guess what Tim Cook, Apple isn't growing anymore and we want our money. The CEO works for the shareholders and we don't believe Tim can invest that 160 billion as well as we can. It is our money, not his. Give it back.
post #47 of 170
This is all such a game to the folks in Wall Street....

Pump up the stock for 2.5 months and tell all their clients they need it have it in their portfolio...

Then on record earnings & and sales tell this same clients they need to dump it ASAP (and they'll be happy to buy it back at $10 to $60 less than they sold it for)

I'd like to know just how much Carl Icahn profited on Apple over the last day - as has been said, "follow the money"
post #48 of 170
Could some analysts please start expecting sales of 1,000,000,000 iPhones per month? Then Apple stock could crash and I could afford to buy in. Thank you.
post #49 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

Umm, growth was 6.7%, down from mid twenties last year and down from like more than fifty percent the years before that. more importantly it is growing more slowly than the market. So yes, I'm certain the growth story in iPhone is over. Apple makes great phones, but the competition has caught up and people are not motivated by features like fingerprint recognition. Don't get me wrong, owning the most profitable segment of the market is a great thing, but that doesn't change the fact that the growth story is OVER, at least for the iPhone.

So what? Apple has an healthy business. "Growth" should not be the only variable in the analysis of Apple business. "Long term viability" should be considered too. And in this area, I'm pretty confident ;) 

post #50 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post


Agree completely. This is a stockholder issue (and I own Apple stock). I talked to an Apple engineer over the holiday break and he was genuinely excited about the product pipeline. I'm looking forward to more great Apple products, but that doesn't mean Apple is going to make more money. Shareholders were fine with Apple accumulating cash when Apple was growing. Well guess what Tim Cook, Apple isn't growing anymore and we want our money. The CEO works for the shareholders and we don't believe Tim can invest that 160 billion as well as we can. It is our money, not his. Give it back.

Would you have said that to S. Jobs? 

post #51 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post


Actually, Apple admitted that it misjudged iPhone 5C sales. That isn't wall street's miscalculation, it's Apple's miscalculation. It was obvious to me that the 5c was priced too high. I understand that Apple didn't want to lose margin. However, this is the classic big business trap....making too much money, can't pivot. Apple will continue to make boatloads of money but growth of the iPhone is over.
I'm looking to iPad for future growth, but it is much much slower than iPhone. iPad will take over the PC at the same rate the PC declines, which will be really slow.

The other interpretation is that they should have just made fewer iPhone 5c and more iPhone 5s at the launch date. Not having product in stock seems to have hit US sales. The risk with making a $400 iPhone 5c is that it cannibalizes sales. Apple, unlike Samsung, isn't in a position to seek market share for the sake of market share.

post #52 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ealvarez View Post
 

Would you have said that to S. Jobs? 

 

Didn't have to.

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post #53 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

Actually, Apple admitted that it misjudged iPhone 5C sales. That isn't wall street's miscalculation, it's Apple's miscalculation. It was obvious to me that the 5c was priced too high. I understand that Apple didn't want to lose margin. However, this is the classic big business trap....making too much money, can't pivot. Apple will continue to make boatloads of money but growth of the iPhone is over.
I'm looking to iPad for future growth, but it is much much slower than iPhone. iPad will take over the PC at the same rate the PC declines, which will be really slow.

Relative to the 5S. I believe Cook did say the 5C did relatively better than the 4S in the same qtr last year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

We just have more solid evidence that the growth story at Apple has come to an end. It doesn't mean Apple makes bad products or that Apple is on the decline. It means it has tapped out its market. Since Apple doesn't care to compete in the low end of the market it can't continue to grow.

China Mobile
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

Agree completely. This is a stockholder issue (and I own Apple stock). I talked to an Apple engineer over the holiday break and he was genuinely excited about the product pipeline. I'm looking forward to more great Apple products, but that doesn't mean Apple is going to make more money. Shareholders were fine with Apple accumulating cash when Apple was growing. Well guess what Tim Cook, Apple isn't growing anymore and we want our money. The CEO works for the shareholders and we don't believe Tim can invest that 160 billion as well as we can. It is our money, not his. Give it back.

You want money, sell your stock. I'm a share holder as well and I demand access to see these top secret products. Apple shouldn't hide secrets from its owners.
post #54 of 170
I just have one word "bull". Even many stores close, call it the winter vortex. etc. etc. They are doing well concerning all the odds. man is 50M iphones. they are comparing it with what? samsung... adroit????? which model? The sales of S4 are ridiculous, hell man. Many companies are struggle to make sales. There has to be a point, when analyst make some reality check. there is 1 iphone (4s, 5c, 5s) 1 OS. for 50M I call it bull. The company made so much cash profit, and they are just checking how many phone are sold! That is the reason why SJ hate these part of Apple the stock market. But well is what it is!. And I am not a market geek, but it is billions for 3 phones, 3 models of ipads and it variations, 6 computers. etc. etc. make the calculator work.... wait. use your both hands and count the fingers.
post #55 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by KPOM View Post
 

The other interpretation is that they should have just made fewer iPhone 5c and more iPhone 5s at the launch date. Not having product in stock seems to have hit US sales. The risk with making a $400 iPhone 5c is that it cannibalizes sales. Apple, unlike Samsung, isn't in a position to seek market share for the sake of market share.

 

This is why I always believed that the 5c was meant as a complimentary phone to the 5s... not a phone that was in competition with the 5s. The 5c was meant for a different crowd, another market altogether. 

 

... but the 5c didn't live up to those expectations and sales remained similar to Apple's other 2nd tier phones over the years.

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post #56 of 170
Investors are not that far off this time around. What they see is a slowing in growth of Apple's iPhone sales (not a decrease, so the stock hasn't plummeted). Investors see that, and see that the iPad, while very successful, won't be able, alone, to generate that amount of growth in the future.

Add to that that Apple hasn't yet introduced new products in their lineup and you see why the stock has taken a dip.

Concern doesn't mean catastrophe, but nevertheless, this time around, I see the reasoning behind it and find it very rational as a concern.

In one, maximum 2 years, when the market of people who can afford a smartphone in like the iPhone is saturated, and the differences from one to the next model will be barely noticeable (like it has been between the 5 and 5s where the difference in speed is reduced), sales of the iPhone will decrease.

The stock won't suffer if Apple will have one or several other products to replace the lost revenue. But, for the time being, I don't see anything in this regard. Of course the iPad is a top seller, but not in the same league.

So you can replace a smashing hit with several top sellers, but not with only one of these.
post #57 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

WS: it's Apple's fault that its actual data does not correspond to my wild guessing.

no more calls. we have a winner.
"Personally, I would like nothing more than to thoroughly proof each and every word of my articles before posting. But I can't."

appleinsider's mike campbell, august 15, 2013
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"Personally, I would like nothing more than to thoroughly proof each and every word of my articles before posting. But I can't."

appleinsider's mike campbell, august 15, 2013
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post #58 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMat View Post

Investors are not that far off this time around. What they see is a slowing in growth of Apple's iPhone sales (not a decrease, so the stock hasn't plummeted). Investors see that, and see that the iPad, while very successful, won't be able, alone, to generate that amount of growth in the future.

Add to that that Apple hasn't yet introduced new products in their lineup and you see why the stock has taken a dip.

Concern doesn't mean catastrophe, but nevertheless, this time around, I see the reasoning behind it and find it very rational as a concern.

In one, maximum 2 years, when the market of people who can afford a smartphone in like the iPhone is saturated, and the differences from one to the next model will be barely noticeable (like it has been between the 5 and 5s where the difference in speed is reduced), sales of the iPhone will decrease.

The stock won't suffer if Apple will have one or several other products to replace the lost revenue. But, for the time being, I don't see anything in this regard. Of course the iPad is a top seller, but not in the same league.

So you can replace a smashing hit with several top sellers, but not with only one of these.
yep. Right now Apple is the iPhone company. They need to change that dynamic. One product shouldn't be over 50% of your revenues. Especially in a market you don't have a monopoly on.
post #59 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ealvarez View Post
 

So what? Apple has an healthy business. "Growth" should not be the only variable in the analysis of Apple business. "Long term viability" should be considered too. And in this area, I'm pretty confident ;) 

Disagree here as well.  Tim Cook's stubbornness with selling a low priced phone is going to hurt Apple long term.  The long term story in phones are the services that you sell on top of the phone. Apple needs its platform to be big. The only way it can do that is by selling a lower priced phone that can compete in the market.  I realize that taking a hit on margins will actually probably cause the stock to drop in the short term.  However, I think in the long term having a large market share will be good for its services business like apps, iTunes, mobile payments, search, etc.

 

The sign of a good CEO is one that can see the future and do what is best for the company.  Based on Tim Cook's response to failing with the iPhone 5C I really question his ability to lead the company.  Essentially he is saying, we tried a different pricing structure and it failed so I'm just going to go back to making good products and hope it works out well for us.  Talk about a lack of vision.  Targeting the high end of the market was the right thing for Apple during the Steve Jobs years. However, it is damn obvious that Apple is in a different situation now and Tim needs to pivot.  The "great product strategy" is going to suck for shareholders.   

post #60 of 170
F*ck wallstreet; those money grubbing bastards are ruining ethics and the planet.
post #61 of 170
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
I'd hate to be Tim Cook right now. Wall Street wants his head on a platter. I wouldn't be surprised if we start hearing calls for Cook to be replaced. I think it's nonsense but it won't surprise me.

 

They’ve been calling for that since before he became CEO. He couldn’t care less about idiots. :lol:

 

Originally Posted by ash471 View Post
This is a stockholder issue (and I own Apple stock). 

 

That’s absolutely right. YOU are the issue. Not Apple.

 
I talked to an Apple engineer over the holiday break and he was genuinely excited about the product pipeline.

 

That’s proof that you should sell.

 
…that doesn’t mean Apple is going to make more money.

 

Yeah, they sure didn’t post 13 billion in profit in the recent past or anything.

 
Shareholders were fine with Apple accumulating cash when Apple was growing.

 

Which makes zero sense, but you guys are the ones shorting the fourth most successful quarter in human history, so you aren’t known for making sense.

 
Well guess what Tim Cook, Apple isn't growing anymore and we want our money.

 

Your money? What did you do for it? Did you come up with the product ideas? Did you design the products? Did you manufacture them? Did you do the coding? Did you figure out how to efficiently ship them? Did you hire the people responsible for any of these?


​Have you done any work whatsoever other than giving an initial investment? 

 

No? Then shut up.

 

Do you similarly whine when a bank doesn’t increase your interest rate over time? “Oh, interest rates are staying the same; my money is only growing at an even rate; better fire the head of the bank!”

 

No. You shut up, take your money out, and go somewhere else that fits your needs. Thing about Wall Street is that no one promised you an increasing rate of growth even if you can have one, and the thing about a bank is that you’re not going to get an increasing rate of growth, but at least you won’t lose money. Unless it’s HSBC.

 
It is our money, not his. Give it back. 

 

Get over it and sell. There’s your money back.

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #62 of 170

Dear Wall Street: Stop coming up with stupid expectations that have no basis in reality and maybe you wouldn't have this problem.  Our country is doomed. We are governed and financed by idiots.

post #63 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

Which is exactly what the other guy said.

Yes, but he used that info to tell a negative slant i.e. ( but the competition has caught up and people are not motivated by features like fingerprint recognition.) ..... Same info, two vastly different opinions. Not everyone can "tell a joke".   ;)

See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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post #64 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
 

I'll be happy when Wall Street starts being concerned over something else. Thankfully it's the State of the Union tonight so they'll have something else to talk about tomorrow.

Wall Street is only concerned about itself and the next quarter. God forbid it actually cares about well-run companies like Apple or even the state of the nation.

post #65 of 170

So great to see the rigged casino working as intended. 

post #66 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I'd hate to be Tim Cook right now. Wall Street wants his head on a platter. I wouldn't be surprised if we start hearing calls for Cook to be replaced. I think it's nonsense but it won't surprise me.

Sad, but true.

post #67 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ealvarez View Post
 

So what? Apple has an healthy business. "Growth" should not be the only variable in the analysis of Apple business. "Long term viability" should be considered too. And in this area, I'm pretty confident ;) 

 

Long term viability is a direct correlation to growth.  

post #68 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by ash471 View Post

Disagree here as well.  Tim Cook's stubbornness with selling a low priced phone is going to hurt Apple long term.  The long term story in phones are the services that you sell on top of the phone. Apple needs its platform to be big. The only way it can do that is by selling a lower priced phone that can compete in the market.  I realize that taking a hit on margins will actually probably cause the stock to drop in the short term.  However, I think in the long term having a large market share will be good for its services business like apps, iTunes, mobile payments, search, etc.

The sign of a good CEO is one that can see the future and do what is best for the company.  Based on Tim Cook's response to failing with the iPhone 5C I really question his ability to lead the company.  Essentially he is saying, we tried a different pricing structure and it failed so I'm just going to go back to making good products and hope it works out well for us.  Talk about a lack of vision.  Targeting the high end of the market was the right thing for Apple during the Steve Jobs years. However, it is damn obvious that Apple is in a different situation now and Tim needs to pivot.  The "great product strategy" is going to suck for shareholders.   
Tim Cook never said the 5C failed. He said the 5C sold better than the 4S did at this time last year. He also said most 5C buyers were first time iPhone buyers. Apple can get into the low end but if it doesn't bring profit growth Wall Street won't care. Apple posted record revenues this quarter yet the stock is taking a beating because profits were flat. Seems to me Apple's issue is not a cheap iPhone but that the iPhone is such a large percentage of Apple's business. iPhone revenue is over 50% of the companies revenue. And iPad isn't growing enough to bring that percentage down. This past quarter was actually very good but because iPhone sales didn't meet wall streets estimates the stock is down 8%. Apple needs more diversification, more revenue streams. Mobile payments is a start. Apple needs new product categories that will make them less dependent on iPhone.
post #69 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post
 

 

Didn't have to.

Why not? Steve Jobs wasn't exactly investing that cash either, in the manner that shareholders wanted.

post #70 of 170

1. i dont understand, how could Wall Street expect 55-56m iphones, if Apple beat both revenue and earnings with just 51 millions? Ok more Ipads than expected, but by just 1,5 million or so. So if Apple really sold 55-56 iphones, revenue and earnings would be very different am i right? So i dont understand how they calculated that for revenue and earnings which was met, Apple need to sell 55-56 iphones.

 

2. I would like to know what will happen, if we have same earnings like year before, flat guidance in next quarter what will stop stock to fall again to 400-450 levels, whats so different from year ago? New iOS, new phones, ipads, china mobile, new countries, new carriers, but nothing helped at all as it seems now.  One thing is different, Apple has even more cash, but not sure if it will keep stock price above 500 as broad market will probably move down in coming months. Apple could be great "safe bet" but now with flat earnings and revenue im not sure.

post #71 of 170
Well Ichaan just bought $500M more shares. Doesn't seem to be moving the stock at all.
post #72 of 170
Investors must be plain dumb and greedy.
post #73 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanukStorm View Post
 

Why not? Steve Jobs wasn't exactly investing that cash either, in the manner that shareholders wanted.

 

Well, okay then...

 

"Yes."

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post #74 of 170

Now, if they would look into which of them sold a bunch of Apple stock last week and are buying again today, we can do away with a few analysts and their pump and dump strategies.

post #75 of 170

In a poorly veiled attempt to attract Asian tweens, it was clear to me and anyone with two eyes that the 5C iPhone was ill conceived, poorly designed, and released in the most hideous colors imaginable. It's obvious Apple can't get out of its own way and Tim Cook doesn't have the capacity to lead. Glib denials aside, that's the reality.

post #76 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-News View Post
 

Stock is down 42.46$ as of this moment. It seems Apple has finally attracted the attention of "investors" that nobody really wants. It's a sick world we live in, where you can post a profit of over 13 billion and be punished for it by an 8% stock drop.

 

This is ridiculous.

 

P.S.: That also means by buying today, you'll make 8% profit within a week's time.

 

Don't try applying logic to the stock market.  One of my friends works for a company that uses its own software and just invests its own money in microtransactions. As long as there is trading, in any direction, they make money. Pennies of price change, and they're all millionaires. They essentially have a money printing machine, and are opening data centers in any city in the world that has an exchange. The stock market is a playground.

post #77 of 170
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post
In a poorly veiled attempt to attract Asian tweens, it was clear to me and anyone with two eyes that the 5C iPhone was ill conceived, poorly designed, and released in the most hideous colors imaginable. The marketing campaign for the 5C also bordered on reverse racism. It's obvious Apple can't get out of its own way and Tim Cook doesn't have the capacity to lead. Glib denials aside, that's the reality.

 

Go find another company to lie about.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #78 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post

In a poorly veiled attempt to attract Asian tweens, it was clear to me and anyone with two eyes that the 5C iPhone was ill conceived, poorly designed, and released in the most hideous colors imaginable. It's obvious Apple can't get out of its own way and Tim Cook doesn't have the capacity to lead. Glib denials aside, that's the reality.

The 5C in 1QFY14 outperformed what the 4S did in 1QFy13.
post #79 of 170
Apple reported its best quarter ever, but it wasn't best enough for Wall Street? I still say stay long and ignore the analysts. Apple's superiority has to register with Wall St once it can no longer be ignored. I suppose they are waiting for new, category-defining product(s) to be released, but I can't understand the doubts about this. Apple has always had intervals of years between such major releases, and meanwhile they play a strong game of incremental, iterative upgrades. This is nothing new, so I can only assume that a lot of big investors were very late to the AAPL game, and expected every year to look like 2010-2012. This ignorant, greedy bandwagon jumping likely drove AAPL to its $700 spike in September 2012. I believe AAPL will reattain and surpass those heights, this time under its own power.
post #80 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Q1 2012? Did you mean 2013? And I thought Apple's profit was flat YOY not down.

 

err yes, thank you.  It always throws me off that Q1 of 2014 occured entirely in 2013 =p  So yes, this year's Q1 2014 was very slightly less than they made last year in Q1 of 2013.  Close enough that you can call it flat or a tie (when rounded, both come out to $13.1 b), but still worth taking note of given they had higher sales and revenues this year.

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