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Apple's Cook meets with Irish PM to discuss taxes, future growth at European HQ - Page 2

post #41 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

I'd think some of the new eastern members to EU would be happy to see someone like Apple move into their country. What a shot in the arm it would be for them!

Once again. Ireland will increase taxes when or (a very big if) the EU forces it to. If the EU can apply a general corporation tax then where is the advantage to moving within the EU?
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post #42 of 85
Well, call me ignorant, but I really thought Ireland was part of the UK. If not, then what's "united" about the term, "UK?"


Northern Ireland is part of the UK. The rest if Ireland or Eire as it is also known is not part of the UK.
Edited by Crosslad - 2/1/14 at 3:46am
post #43 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

Touché.... We are largely on the same page. Sorry for the mistakes.
That must have been one of the best posts I have seen here for years.
post #44 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosslad View Post

Well, call me ignorant, but I really thought Ireland was part of the UK. If not, then what's "united" about the term, "UK?"


Northern Ireland is part of the UK. The rest if Ireland or Eire as it is also known is not part of the UK.
The United Kingdom includes England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (four countries). It doesn't include the main part of Ireland, which is Eire.
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post #45 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post
 

 

Don't talk about mathematics and Economies of scale to me. It gets fucking old reading about how US and EU Corporations will just relocate. I'm advocating the entire G20 Summit do what it was charged to do: Fix the tax dodging at fair and reasonable rates.

 

Apple paying 0.6% in taxes is fucking pathetic.

 

When I worked at NeXT and Apple Engineering there was no fucking way we only paid so little. This hording of accounting practices comes after Fred Anderson left and Peter Oppenheimer arrived.

 

Shit, we paid $900k/month on network and communications services at NeXT before the merger. Spare me on how accounting practices work. Any Engineer worth a shit laughs at the simplicity of Finance and Accounting. It's clear the tax codes are fucked up.

 

By the way, this ``they'll pass the costs onto the consumer'' is a fucking red herring that would not pan out [pass the smell test] once the Tax Code is fixed. Tax Law would strictly forbid such egregious practices.


The real loser is the institutional investors who spend billions lobbying for this never to happen.

 

By "institutional investors" do you mean "pension funds"? Like the one your retirement money is in? Those bastards! You can fucking live on fucking social security, and fucking like it!

 

The rest of your post is just as senseless. You are/were an engineer, so yes, you are a god, and those accountants are little people. Well, no. It's really quite complicated, and having a team of people work on a product which makes the company some extra money will be very frustrated if the company just pisses it away by not doing everything it can to minimize its tax burden. Should the laws be changed? I suppose, though an argument is: why should there be corporate taxes at all? In the end, the money goes to individuals, who pay taxes. One may argue that corporate taxes are a scam to make people's taxes look like less than what they really are.

post #46 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by marubeni View Post
 

 

In the end, the money goes to individuals, who pay taxes. One may argue that corporate taxes are a scam to make people's taxes look like less than what they really are.

Except it seems that a lot of this money just sits around offshore, so Apple, Google, Amazon et al don't pay any taxes.

 

That is morally despicable, especially when you have tens of billions in the bank and all three countries under discussion suffer endless poverty. It's the Rand Paul approach to capitalism though. 'FYGM'

post #47 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by jido View Post

The United Kingdom includes England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (four countries). It doesn't include the main part of Ireland, which is Eire.

Sorry. That's what I was saying. I cut and pasted someone's previous quote instead of using the quote button.
post #48 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 

Except it seems that a lot of this money just sits around offshore, so Apple, Google, Amazon et al don't pay any taxes.

 

That is morally despicable, especially when you have tens of billions in the bank and all three countries under discussion suffer endless poverty. It's the Rand Paul approach to capitalism though. 'FYGM'

 

Which three countries? If there were no corporate taxes, the money would flow freely into the pockets of shareholders and employees, and then would get taxed. Rand Paul would advocate a drastic decrease in ALL taxes, but this was not what I was suggesting here.

post #49 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by marubeni View Post
 

 

Which three countries? If there were no corporate taxes, the money would flow freely into the pockets of shareholders and employees, and then would get taxed. Rand Paul would advocate a drastic decrease in ALL taxes, but this was not what I was suggesting here.

 

USA, UK, Eire are the countries I was referring to. Why would the money flow freely into the pockets of shareholders? They get taxed only on capital gains which can often be significantly lower than income taxes. Better for Apple / Google / Etc to keep their money offshore and untaxed in either way.

 

I'm wholly against this nonsense of 'trickle down economics'. It's a delusion shared between those who want to justify keeping hold of money at all costs. When the richest ~100 people in the world outweigh the poorest half then we have a major worldwide problem. Apple and Google and Microsoft etc are just visible symptoms, the real cancer is the ideologies.

post #50 of 85
There really isn't any country whose English language name is Eire.
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post #51 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

There really isn't any country whose English language name is Eire.


Éire my apologies. I didn't want to do the wrong accent or appear UK centric.

post #52 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post


Éire my apologies. I didn't want to do the wrong accent or appear UK centric.

I am part English part Irish. And live between the two. I don't expect English people to worry about accents (fadas) over Irish vowels. This is a bit petty but Eire is the Gaelic language name for the Republic of Ireland, which is the English name. Using Eire is a bit off, like calling Germany Deutschland in English. Or Rome Roma. Or pronouncing Paris Paree.

This is more an English language prejudice than anything. Or a love of consistency. Keep the English name of all countries or none.
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post #53 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


I am part English part Irish. And live between the two. I don't expect English people to worry about accents (fadas) over Irish vowels. This is a bit petty but Eire is the Gaelic language name for the Republic of Ireland, which is the English name. Using Eire is a bit off, like calling Germany Deutschland in English. Or Rome Roma. Or pronouncing Paris Paree.

This is more an English language prejudice than anything. Or a love of consistency. Keep the English name of all countries or none.

 

That's fine, I try and make sure I don't have a UK centric position on this because I am stuck in a tricky position between support for Ireland being known as its own country and supporting republicanism in NI, which I am mostly against. Let's end this brief aside here though so we don't bring politics any further into this discussion.

 

My position is simple: Apple, Google, Microsoft all do business in the UK. They therefore have a moral obligation to pay a reasonable tax amount to support the continued growth of their market. The argument that they should act only in the interests of their shareholders is wildly ignorant (not that I'm implying you're making it, I haven't read all your previous posts) and we should never accept a system where only those lucky enough to be able to buy-in to higher risk investments deserve to receive benefits from them. A rising tide lifts all boats and the best way to raise water levels is to have a healthy supply to those people who can't keep their buckets full and spend everything they earn. That is rarely the rich.

post #54 of 85
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Pay your goddamn share of taxes

 

They are. Problem solved.

 

Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post
Well, call me ignorant, but I really thought Ireland was part of the UK. If not, then what's "united" about the term, "UK?"

 

 

That ought to clear it right up. ;) 

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post #55 of 85
Personally speaking, both Ireland and Switzerland should have kept their national independence and not joined the EU//EUC. Ireland now has to bow to external pressures and regulations, this dilutes its independence and differentiation.
post #56 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post

That's fine, I try and make sure I don't have a UK centric position on this because I am stuck in a tricky position between support for Ireland being known as its own country and supporting republicanism in NI, which I am mostly against. Let's end this brief aside here though so we don't bring politics any further into this discussion.

My position is simple: Apple, Google, Microsoft all do business in the UK. They therefore have a moral obligation to pay a reasonable tax amount to support the continued growth of their market. The argument that they should act only in the interests of their shareholders is wildly ignorant (not that I'm implying you're making it, I haven't read all your previous posts) and we should never accept a system where only those lucky enough to be able to buy-in to higher risk investments deserve to receive benefits from them. A rising tide lifts all boats and the best way to raise water levels is to have a healthy supply to those people who can't keep their buckets full and spend everything they earn. That is rarely the rich.


My position is the US is owed most of these taxes, morally. Not Ireland.
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post #57 of 85
Unless the US tax laws change I do not see the foreign money being repatriated back to home shores. Given the inertia in Congress and the competing lobbying groups of both pro & con, I do nor anticipate any new laws or tax holidays despite the inherent benefits of having the money on US vice foreign shores. We are not dealing with logic.but emotions, ideology and special interests.
post #58 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by marubeni View Post

If Apple paid "its share of taxes", then it would have to raise the prices of its products to maintain the same level of after-tax income, which means that sales would go down, which means that  the companies everyone here loves to hate (Google, Samsung) would win. And before you say "well, but they would be paying higher taxes too", remember: if they do, they just pass the costs on to the consumer, but in the case of Samsung (which is, basically, Korea Inc), the government would be happy to keep their taxes low.

 

 

I prefer lower prices.  And you make good points about Google.

post #59 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 

 

USA, UK, Eire are the countries I was referring to. Why would the money flow freely into the pockets of shareholders? They get taxed only on capital gains which can often be significantly lower than income taxes. Better for Apple / Google / Etc to keep their money offshore and untaxed in either way.

 

I'm wholly against this nonsense of 'trickle down economics'. It's a delusion shared between those who want to justify keeping hold of money at all costs. When the richest ~100 people in the world outweigh the poorest half then we have a major worldwide problem. Apple and Google and Microsoft etc are just visible symptoms, the real cancer is the ideologies.

 

Thank you for sharing your ideology, but I don't think religious discussions are useful, since no one ever gets convinced of anything.

post #60 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


The EU has tariffs already. It's not going to worry about a trade war with the Carribean. In any case most workers in Europe will stay in Europe. But I don't think the EU can normalise taxes across the EU.

 

So the EU will apply tariffs selectively?

 

What about all the other stuff they import which will be subject to the same tariffs?

 

Then due to the uncompetitive advantage these tariffs will create, which country will not apply equivalent tariffs to EU exporters in order to protect their domestic industries.

 

Who will collect these EU based tariffs, how will they be distributed?

 

Remember the EU will be dealing with Irish companies like Amazon, Google, Apple and others have set up.

 

At least Apple has more than a letterbox in Ireland. 

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post #61 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


My position is the US is owed most of these taxes, morally. Not Ireland.

 

Why?

 

The money wasn't made in the US, the customers aren't in the US the products weren't made in the US, the only thing from the US is the design and other IP.

 

Why should non-US customers pay more for goods because companies have to pay a 35% tax to the US.

 

So much for free trade, a bullshit term if there ever was one with tariffs and protectionism being the order of the day.

 

There is no such thing as a level playing field as long as politicians want to get their hands on corporate riches.

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post #62 of 85
Forget taxes. We want an Apple Store here in Ireland. Just one. Please!
post #63 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post
 

 

So the EU will apply tariffs selectively?

 

What about all the other stuff they import which will be subject to the same tariffs?

 

Then due to the uncompetitive advantage these tariffs will create, which country will not apply equivalent tariffs to EU exporters in order to protect their domestic industries.

 

Who will collect these EU based tariffs, how will they be distributed?

 

Remember the EU will be dealing with Irish companies like Amazon, Google, Apple and others have set up.

 

At least Apple has more than a letterbox in Ireland. 

 

As opposed to Luxembourg, where there is a letterbox through which the iTunes profits are funneled.

post #64 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidricTheViking View Post

Forget taxes. We want an Apple Store here in Ireland. Just one. Please!

 

Why doesn't your fearless leader demand one from Cook, as payment for tax haven privileges?

post #65 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Why?

The money wasn't made in the US, the customers aren't in the US the products weren't made in the US, the only thing from the US is the design and other IP.

Why should non-US customers pay more for goods because companies have to pay a 35% tax to the US.

So much for free trade, a bullshit term if there ever was one with tariffs and protectionism being the order of the day.

There is no such thing as a level playing field as long as politicians want to get their hands on corporate riches.

The money was made by US intellectual property. The value added to an iPhone bought from Foxconn at $200 and sold to channel for $500 ( $300) is added by Cupertino.
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post #66 of 85
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Originally Posted by marubeni View Post

Why doesn't your fearless leader demand one from Cook, as payment for tax haven privileges?

Probably because he isn't that fearless?
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post #67 of 85
Originally Posted by marubeni View Post

Why doesn't your fearless leader demand one from Cook, as payment for tax haven privileges?

 

Also probably because that’s not how laws work.

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post #68 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


Well actually the server is probably in Ireland. Or holland. All the UK is providing is consumers, not roads, police or healthcare for the non existant Apple headquarters, or data center in the UK. ( I think the location of the server doesn't matter.)


Now who do you think should pay tax on

1) Economist ads served from the UK sold in the US
2) guardian ads served from the UK sold in the US
3) online sales of GTA served from a UK server sold across the world.
4) a UK app dev who sells £1m in any year.

If VAT is paid where sold the world economy would collapse. App devs would have to return VAT records to every country in the world they sell to.

( in all of these cases the IP is also from the UK).

Well, I do think both governments should be paid somehow. There's no commerce without 2 parties, and both have benefitted from the law and order provided by their respective governments. If Apple is not paying the government in the consumer's country then the consumer himself should.

post #69 of 85
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Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Well, I do think both governments should be paid somehow. There's no commerce without 2 parties, and both have benefitted from the law and order provided by their respective governments. If Apple is not paying the government in the consumer's country then the consumer himself should.

They do, it's called VAT, sales tax, GST or whatever various governments want to call a tax on buying stuff.
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post #70 of 85
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Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

They do, it's called VAT, sales tax, GST or whatever various governments want to call a tax on buying stuff.

Isn't that a tax paid by the end-user? Not entirely sure as I'm not in that region.
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post #71 of 85
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post



Isn't that a tax paid by the end-user? Not entirely sure as I'm not in that region.

 


Yes, but it's collected by the seller.
post #72 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post



Isn't that a tax paid by the end-user? Not entirely sure as I'm not in that region.

 


Yes, but it's collected by the seller.

So it's not the seller's money being paid then? They're simply accepting it as an agent of the government and passing it along. So there shouldn't be any tax on the profit realized by the seller. I guess that's what Hill60 is getting at. VAT isn't a tax the company pays at all, they simply collect it like I do with Sales Tax here and that's the end of their tax obligation. Did I get that right?
Edited by Gatorguy - 2/1/14 at 6:13pm
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post #73 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


So it's not the seller's money being paid then? They're simply accepting it as an agent of the government and passing it along. So there shouldn't be any tax on the profit realized by the seller. I guess that's what Hill60 is getting at. VAT isn't a tax the company pays at all, they simply collect it like I do with Sales Tax here and that's the end of their tax obligation. Did I get that right?

Yes.

The taxes concerned in the article are corporate taxes on the company profits (basically income tax), not VAT/sales tax.

The government gets money twice for the same purchase (once in VAT/sales tax and once from the company profits). :no:

post #74 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

Yes.
The taxes concerned in the article are corporate taxes on the company profits (basically income tax), not VAT/sales tax.
The government gets money twice for the same purchase (once in VAT/sales tax and once from the company profits). 1oyvey.gif

Ah, so similar to the US with sales tax, personal income tax and corporate tax. FWIW I get nailed on all three.
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post #75 of 85

BAM!

stupid goverrments...

post #76 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Isn't that a tax paid by the end-user? Not entirely sure as I'm not in that region.

 

This is what I was replying to:-

 

Quote:
[quote name="ascii" url="/t/161853/apples-cook-meets-with-irish-pm-to-discuss-taxes-future-growth-at-european-hq/60#post_2466508"] If Apple is not paying the government in the consumer's country then the consumer himself should.
[/quote]

 

The consumer does pay on every penny of profit a company makes when selling something in any particular country that collects these taxes, the money collected at point of sale is paid to the government.

 

Amazon was avoiding these taxes at the state level in the US, eroding local businesses ability to compete.

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post #77 of 85
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


So it's not the seller's money being paid then? They're simply accepting it as an agent of the government and passing it along. So there shouldn't be any tax on the profit realized by the seller. I guess that's what Hill60 is getting at. VAT isn't a tax the company pays at all, they simply collect it like I do with Sales Tax here and that's the end of their tax obligation. Did I get that right?

 

Like in the Australian example posted before $6 Billion in sales would have generated $600,000,000 in GST added to the price paid in store.

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post #78 of 85
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Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

If Ireland acts, which would only happen with changes to EU government law, then where would Apple go?


Plenty of new EU member are dying to get Apple over there.
post #79 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

So it's not the seller's money being paid then? They're simply accepting it as an agent of the government and passing it along. So there shouldn't be any tax on the profit realized by the seller. I guess that's what Hill60 is getting at. VAT isn't a tax the company pays at all, they simply collect it like I do with Sales Tax here and that's the end of their tax obligation. Did I get that right?

VAT is not company revenue, it's never reported top line. It's also charged to customers at the rate if the country the online service is located. Hence Luxembourg.

http://www.thebookseller.com/news/eu-aims-close-amazon-luxembourg-vat-dodge.html
Edited by asdasd - 2/2/14 at 2:52am
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post #80 of 85
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Originally Posted by Joelchu View Post

Plenty of new EU member are dying to get Apple over there.
Read the bit about "EU law" again.
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