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Apple, Inc. asks Arizona governor to veto state gay discrimination bill - Page 4

post #121 of 295
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Originally Posted by ipen View Post
 

 

AppleInsider is not a news site.  It's pro-Apple and everything about Apple and has the right to publish editors' opinions and biases.  If you want unbiased articles, go somewhere else.

 

Better yet, just go somewhere else.

post #122 of 295
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Originally Posted by randallking View Post

Excuse me, but when did I refer to anyone else as "inferior" to me? I have referred to myself as someone who needs forgiveness and fails daily in serving God as I should, but never as superior to anyone. The truth is quite the contrary. I am convicted of my sin daily. As David wrote in Psalm 51:3, "my sin is ever before me."

To speak the truth of God's word and reason out of the scriptures is not hypocrisy. It is love in action. God knows that is the desire of my heart.

I do not condemn anyone. I will leave that to God. I have spoken repeatedly about repentance, not condemnation. May we all repent of our evil and turn to the living God.

You "speak" words of man that you claim come from God as a way of hiding behind your own sentiments. If you honestly feel that the Bible is all of God's word you would attribute and hold dear all parts of "his word" but you don't because most parts don't fit in without how you want to live your life so you have cherry picked the pats that make you feel better about your own miserable existence.

(That is two)

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post #123 of 295
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Originally Posted by jrob View Post
 


I'm on your side now (agnostic, pro-gay rights), but it's pretty clear what the Bible says about homosexuality. So, for those who take it as the "inerrant Word of God", and try to interpret it logically (ironic, I know), it clearly says it is sinful. Some may use it to justify their pre-existing hate and prejudice, but for others its just an objective statement that comes along with the all-inclusive Christianity package. To convince them otherwise will require dealing with many much more complicated issues, which essentially amounts to their entire world view. And we obviously aren't going to be able to begin to address that here.

 

 

But that is my point. It is not clear based on the passage you provided. My reading of what you provided is that God is only against homosexual perverts, not homosexuals.

 

As another person also pointed out, different versions of the bible are translated differently. Different versions of the translations can be read to mean different things. Moreover, some people who claim to embrace the bible text so literally, forget about teaching by Jesus such as those without sin cast the first stone, and that God is to be the only judge of our behaviours. 

 

Moreover, even if one's religion follows the bible, the bible was written by people, not God. Moreover, the new testament was written hundreds of years after Jesus was around, and entire chapters were removed. 

post #124 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


But why should someone be forced to photograph same sex couples if another person isn't forced to serve meat in their restaurant. What's the difference? If you're a same sex couple (or someone who doesn't approve) then you just take your business elsewhere. Why all this outrage because of a perceived discrimination against gays? What's so special about gays?

 

There's such a thing as reasonable expectation of service. I don't go to Home Depot to do my grocery shopping. You're exaggerating and confusing yourself.

 

Second point, the discrimination isn't perceived. The example of the photographer exemplifies said discrimination. Just because the defense is religion doesn't mean it's not discrimination. I'm sure religious people don't like the negative connotation of the word, but that's their own problem. Treating religion with kid gloves and playing political correctness with it by using only terms they like only enabled atrocities in religion's name to continue as long as they have.

 

Thirdly, unlike religion, gays are not a protected class in AZ. They can be fired for no other reason than being gay in the majority of states in the union, including AZ. While religious people feign oppression at every step gay people take towards equality, which you condescendingly call "special", the government picking the side of already-protected religion to embolden discrimination further by making it legal to even deny services for no other reason, flies in the face of enlightenment and a society that's leaning hard towards equality as a whole.

post #125 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


You "speak" words of man that you claim come from God as a way of hiding behind your own sentiments. If you honestly feel that the Bible is all of God's word you would attribute and hold dear all parts of "his word" but you don't because most parts don't fit in without how you want to live your life so you have cherry picked the pats that make you feel better about your own miserable existence.


I hold dear every single word of God's holy scriptures, and I strive daily to understand it better by applying myself to studying it. It is perfect truth, never contradicts itself, and is a thorough furnisher unto all good works.

post #126 of 295
This entire thread. /facepalm.

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post #127 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallking View Post
 


I think the point that's missed here is that by enacting laws forcing business owners to serve someone they don't wish to serve is to take the approach that the customer is entitled to the goods or services of that business owner. None of us are entitled to the labor of others, and no one should be forced by the government to serve someone. It should be a matter of liberty.

 

If I choose to make my goods and services available publicly, then I am entreating publicly. In law I cannot (or at least should not) then restrict who I do business with.
 
If I want to restrict my market to certain types of people, then I need to entreat in a limited fashion by marketing only in those ways where I can reliably predict who my customers are. I have to take the risk, though, that there might be some of those who see my entreaties who are still not in my privately-wished target audience.
 
If I entreat publicly, then I entreat ALL the public. Gay, straight, black, white, male, female, those in between, and any other label that people can put upon themselves. Having once entreated publicly, I have already offered my side of the contract to everyone to do business with them. I cannot then back out.
post #128 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by CogitoDexter View Post
 

If I choose to make my goods and services available publicly, then I am entreating publicly. In law I cannot (or at least should not) then restrict who I do business with.
 
If I want to restrict my market to certain types of people, then I need to entreat in a limited fashion by marketing only in those ways where I can reliably predict who my customers are. I have to take the risk, though, that there might be some of those who see my entreaties who are still not in my privately-wished target audience.
 
If I entreat publicly, then I entreat ALL the public. Gay, straight, black, white, male, female, those in between, and any other label that people can put upon themselves. Having once entreated publicly, I have already offered my side of the contract to everyone to do business with them. I cannot then back down.

 

That's your personal opinion, but it's not the opinion that is the side of liberty. That's akin to socialism/fascism.

post #129 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallking View Post
 

 

That's your personal opinion, but it's not the opinion that is the side of liberty. That's akin to socialism/fascism.

 

It's nothing to do with socialism or fascism (which, by the way, are NOT interchangeable as you have presented them, therefore you clearly don't know what you are talking about!)

 

Basically, if you don't want to sell to gay people, make sure gay people don't know you're there.

 

Problem is, gay people are everywhere. They're hiding behind trees, under bushes, they're in the pipes, under your desk at work. They're in your computer. Right now. Hiding. Just waiting to get you.

 

If you don't want to sell to gay people, you'd probably just better emigrate. From the planet. 

 

But they're still going to find you. They're going to follow you across the Universe. Hounding you. Trying to convert you with their awesome fabulousness.

post #130 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I think sins are weighted and that weight varies from person to person on both ends. Meaning, a person can have their own general feeling about how serious a sin as well as vary that depending on who is doing the sinning. It's not exactly something measured by the IEEE.

That's why I said 'worldly reasoning', in our eyes we'll see someone as being 'worse' or 'better' than anybody/everybody else, but in God's eyes we're all bad and equally so. Christians are never to see themselves as better than anyone but they're supposed act better. We're taught to hate what a person does but never hate the person.
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post #131 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by CogitoDexter View Post
 

 

It's nothing to do with socialism or fascism (which, by the way, are NOT interchangeable as you have presented them, therefore you clearly don't know what you are talking about!)

 

Basically, if you don't want to sell to gay people, make sure gay people don't know you're there.

 

Problem is, gay people are everywhere. They're hiding behind trees, under bushes, they're in the pipes, under your desk at work. They're in your computer. Right now. Hiding. Just waiting to get you.

 

If you don't want to sell to gay people, you'd probably just better emigrate. From the planet. 

 

But they're still going to find you. They're going to follow you across the Universe. Hounding you. Trying to convert you with their awesome fabulousness.


I never said they were the same thing.

post #132 of 295

Any discussion of religion that does not acknowledge the one true deity, The Flying Spaghetti Monster (may you be touched by His noodly appendage) is heresy and abomination.

post #133 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallking View Post
 


I never said they were the same thing.

 

You most certainly did! You said a thing was the same as socialism/fascism. You can't deny it. It's there. Above. In black and white. 

 

And you get that rainbow comment for free.

 

Because I'm nice like that.

post #134 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by vexorg View Post
 

Any discussion of religion that does not acknowledge the one true deity, The Flying Spaghetti Monster (may you be touched by His noodly appendage) is heresy and abomination.

 

Thy noodle come, Thy sauce be yum, on top some grated Parmesan.

post #135 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by CogitoDexter View Post
 

 

You most certainly did! You said a thing was the same as socialism/fascism. You can't deny it. It's there. Above. In black and white. 

 

And you get that rainbow comment for free.

 

Because I'm nice like that.


Good grief. Yes, I did say that. But that's not saying that socialism and fascism are the same thing. *eye roll*
 :)

 

Socialism and fascism have characteristics in common, primarily that they are both the enemy of liberty.

post #136 of 295

It's always nice to see Apple, or any other company, support everyone equally. The writing is on the wall, we can all see that homosexuals will have the same rights as heterosexuals eventually. It's just unfortunate that we have such hateful, closed-minded, bigoted companies at the moment.

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post #137 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by CogitoDexter View Post
 

 

... then don't use the pictures of a same sex happy couple in your marketing materials. That way nobody will get the idea that you support such a thing by promoting it in your marketing...

Advertisers show racial diversity in their marketing most likely to avoid being sued. This might also apply to any protected class. It's best not to discriminate if running a business.

 

Would Arizona offer and welcome the same "religious freedoms" to Al-Qaeda so as to allow Sharia law? Should they be allowed to "Stone" women for being raped and claim a religious exemption? I suspect this proposed law is only for Christian, as the authors only considers their beliefs valid.  I hope it is signed the governor as I don't believe it could legally be implemented and these clowns are removed from office.

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post #138 of 295

If this becomes law, will Pastafarians be allowed to have colanders and spegetti openly for sale but only allow certain people to buy them?  :)

post #139 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallking View Post
 


Good grief. Yes, I did say that. But that's not saying that socialism and fascism are the same thing. *eye roll*
 :)

 

Socialism and fascism have characteristics in common, primarily that they are both the enemy of liberty.

 

Strangely enough, you seem to be as well. 

 

I mean, of course, the liberty of your gay and lesbian brethren to be free to walk into any store and purchase what that store sells, free from intrusion into their personal lives.

 

A gay man eats bread the same way that a straight man eats bread. You would permit the baker to refuse to sell the gay man bread. 

 

How is that fair or equal protection under the law?

 

I hereby call you out for what you are: one who speaks of liberty and freedom for himself and those of his ilk while working to deny it to others.

 

I name thee Hypocrite.

post #140 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallking View Post
 
I hold dear every single word of God's holy scriptures, and I strive daily to understand it better by applying myself to studying it. It is perfect truth, never contradicts itself, and is a thorough furnisher unto all good works.

 

Please tell us the one about the Earth is only 5,000 years old. I love that story. /s

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post #141 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallking View Post
 

 

Socialism and fascism have characteristics in common, primarily that they are both the enemy of liberty.

 

The same could be said of religious adherents who talk about religious freedom, but in reality  seem to be focused on restricting the freedoms of those who have other beliefs.

post #142 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowayout11 View Post

There's such a thing as reasonable expectation of service. I don't go to Home Depot to do my grocery shopping. You're exaggerating and confusing yourself.

Second point, the discrimination isn't perceived. The example of the photographer exemplifies said discrimination. Just because the defense is religion doesn't mean it's not discrimination. I'm sure religious people don't like the negative connotation of the word, but that's their own problem. Treating religion with kid gloves and playing political correctness with it by using only terms they like only enabled atrocities in religion's name to continue as long as they have.

Thirdly, unlike religion, gays are not a protected class in AZ. They can be fired for no other reason than being gay in the majority of states in the union, including AZ. While religious people feign oppression at every step gay people take towards equality, which you condescendingly call "special", the government picking the side of already-protected religion to embolden discrimination further by making it legal to even deny services for no other reason, flies in the face of enlightenment and a society that's leaning hard towards equality as a whole.
And what protection do people who are fat, or have tattoos or lots of piercings have (just using as an example). Why single out gay people? Just because they happen to the the flavor of the month that politicians want to curry favor with? Barack Obama was against gay marriage until he needed their donations for re-election. Then he pivoted on a dime and supported it so he could go to San Francisco and raise a lot of money from gays. I'm trying to understand the real intent behind this law, not the reactionary "it's gay discrimination!" being shouted my the media.
post #143 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallking View Post


I hold dear every single word of God's holy scriptures, and I strive daily to understand it better by applying myself to studying it. It is perfect truth, never contradicts itself, and is a thorough furnisher unto all good works.

You hold dear every word? Could you point me to some evidence that you frequent seafood forums where you have condemned those for choosing to eat lobster or crab the way you have condemned homosexuals here? One thing is certain is that one can likely choose to eat different food but one can't choose to have the genetics or fetal development to be born intelligent, tall, fat, short, thin, black, blue, white, gay, straight or other. That said, I fully support your decision to not eat lobster as tradition and culture are very important part of humanity, but it's becomes a very different and very dark thing if you were condemn someone for eating oysters.

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post #144 of 295
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Originally Posted by CogitoDexter View Post
 

 

Strangely enough, you seem to be as well. 

 

I mean, of course, the liberty of your gay and lesbian brethren to be free to walk into any store and purchase what that store sells, free from intrusion into their personal lives.

 

A gay man eats bread the same way that a straight man eats bread. You would permit the baker to refuse to sell the gay man bread. 

 

How is that fair or equal protection under the law?

 

I hereby call you out for what you are: one who speaks of liberty and freedom for himself and those of his ilk while working to deny it to others.

 

I name thee Hypocrite.

 

The liberty of which you speak is not the liberty we are granted by the constitution. We are granted the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Liberty doesn't give me the right to the goods or services of others, or the guaranteed right that they must sell me their goods and services. That would be giving me the right to the labor of others. When the government begins forcing such things, we've gone into socialism and fascism territory.

post #145 of 295
Cogitodexter: This heterosexual ordained Baptist minister thanks you. That needed to be said. But I'm still a bit incredulous that, after all the other crazy things that Arizona lawmakers have done, it took this particular thing to promote enough outrage to get individuals and businesses to take a stand.
post #146 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


And what protection do people who are fat, or have tattoos or lots of piercings have (just using as an example). Why single out gay people? Just because they happen to the the flavor of the month that politicians want to curry favor with? Barack Obama was against gay marriage until he needed their donations for re-election. Then he pivoted on a dime and supported it so he could go to San Francisco and raise a lot of money from gays. I'm trying to understand the real intent behind this law, not the reactionary "it's gay discrimination!" being shouted my the media.

Well, quite. There shouldn't be 'protected classes' of human beings - everyone should get these protections.

post #147 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


You hold dear every word? Could you point me to some evidence that you frequent seafood forums where you have condemned those for choosing to eat lobster or crab the way you have condemned homosexuals here? One thing is certain is that one can likely choose to eat different food but one can't choose to have the genetics or fetal development to be born intelligent, tall, fat, short, thin, black, blue, white, gay, straight or other. That said, I fully support your decision to not eat lobster as tradition and culture are very important part of humanity, but it's becomes a very different and very dark thing if you were condemn someone for eating oysters.


I haven't condemned anyone, first of all.

 

Next, what does lobster and crab have to do with this? I know that you're referring to that laws that God gave to Israel, but scripture clearly states that those things were to be an abomination unto them (not to us in the New Testament day). When God spoke of homosexuality, he said it's an abomination, period. He didn't say that it is only an abomination unto them (nation of Israel only). Aside from that, it's mentioned in the New Testament, too.

post #148 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by CogitoDexter View Post

A gay man eats bread the same way that a straight man eats bread.

Maybe not, but oh well, to each his own. lol.gif
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post #149 of 295
Are we going back to this?

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post #150 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallking View Post
 

Next, what does lobster and crab have to do with this? I know that you're referring to that laws that God gave to Israel, but scripture clearly states that those things were to be an abomination unto them (not to us in the New Testament day). 

If God is unchanging why was something an abomination one day and not the next.

 

Did God inspire the New Testament to be written all about forgiveness because the people didn't like all the smiting and stoning in the original version?

 

The Bible is like statistics. You can make it say anything that supports your argument.

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post #151 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


And what protection do people who are fat, or have tattoos or lots of piercings have (just using as an example). Why single out gay people? Just because they happen to the the flavor of the month that politicians want to curry favor with? Barack Obama was against gay marriage until he needed their donations for re-election. Then he pivoted on a dime and supported it so he could go to San Francisco and raise a lot of money from gays. I'm trying to understand the real intent behind this law, not the reactionary "it's gay discrimination!" being shouted my the media.

 

They have the same protections those that make bad analogies and false equivalencies have. :) There shouldn't BE protected classes in a perfect world, but racism, sexism, bigotry and more exist as a reality.

 

The supporters of the bill make clear their intentions... to allow people with religious beliefs to deny people services "based" off those beliefs. And supporters of the bill themselves have singling out gays by citing the examples of a baker or photographer making wedding cakes or taking photographs for gay marriages... even though AZ doesn't have gay marriage and won't anytime soon, making these issues moot and the bill redundant because religion is already a protected class.

 

But seriously, money? Heaven forbid. It's not as if religion has imposed it's will through money to the tune of countless tax-exempt billions through the years. Allowing gay citizens to have any influence would just be outlandish.


Edited by nowayout11 - 2/25/14 at 11:04am
post #152 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallking View Post


I haven't condemned anyone, first of all.

Next, what does lobster and crab have to do with this? I know that you're referring to that laws that God gave to Israel, but scripture clearly states that those things were to be an abomination unto them (not to us in the New Testament day). When God spoke of homosexuality, he said it's an abomination, period. He didn't say that it is only an abomination unto them (nation of Israel only). Aside from that, it's mentioned in the New Testament, too.

1) You said you hold dear every word. Do you or do you not hold dear every word in the Bible?

2) Unto them is just more of the bigoted elitism you've been preaching. Why exactly would God say Israelites can't be lobster but you can? Again, traditions are fine but condemning others for not abiding by them is as silly as condemning people for opening gifts on Christmas Eve instead of Christmas Day.

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post #153 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by CogitoDexter View Post
 

 

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

 

 

By the way, I'm a committed Christian myself. I've read the Bible from cover to cover. There is nothing in it to support homophobia, discrimination and intolerance. Jesus Christ would be furious with a lot of the people who profess to speak in His name.

 

This subject gets me angry.

Congratulations.    There aren't many people with your sincere understanding of what Christianity (and some other religions) is supposed to be about.

 

Just as many conservatives criticize the new Pope, it is my sincere belief that if the Jesus we have come to believe existed was to return, he would be persecuted as a radical, leftist, Marxist 'nut'.    

post #154 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


but condemning others for not abiding by them is as silly as condemning people for opening gifts on Christmas Eve instead of Christmas Day.

Especially since Jesus was not born on what we celebrate as Christmas Day.  

post #155 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


but condemning others for not abiding by them is as silly as condemning people for opening gifts on Christmas Eve instead of Christmas Day.

Especially since Jesus was not born on what we celebrate as Christmas Day.  

Nor was his name Jesus.

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post #156 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb 
Especially since Jesus was not born on what we celebrate as Christmas Day.
Nor was his name Jesus.

He was at least caucasian, right? I don't think my fragile disposition could handle not knowing that he had a skin colour that I have been taught my whole life to consider inferior to my own¡

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post #157 of 295

I've enjoyed the discussion, but I have lots of work to do. May the Lord bless you all!

 

Let us all seek his will and ways in all things, for his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts higher than our thoughts.

 

All glory to the Lamb!

post #158 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Nor was his name Jesus.

Jesus is the translation of Yeshua, but his last name was definitely not Christ.
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post #159 of 295
@ CogitoDexter,

Can't vote you up enough.

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post #160 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallking View Post

I've enjoyed the discussion, but I have lots of work to do. May the Lord bless you all!

Let us all seek his will and ways in all things, for his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts higher than our thoughts.

All glory to the Lamb!

Ugh, now you're going to have to explain why he's called the Lamb. lol.gif
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