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Institutional ownership of Apple stock reaches new 5-year low - Page 2

post #41 of 96
I'm curious to see where the stock will be in a year or so. After the next bigger iPhone, iWatch, and whatever else that might get released. It does seem like bad news comes from analysts, or, "people that get paid to guess". I wouldn't say it's to manipulate the stock but it seems like people are trading AAPL short term while other people with weak hands get scared.
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post #42 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Oh, good. Now I at least know which analyst you trust.


Twice I point out the obvious, that Cramer condemns himself and twice you try to deflect. I don't get it. I was simply posting a reference to at least one jerk admitting he tried to manipulate AAPL in reference to your OP about that very thing. Why the sarcastic attack?

For your information, I don't trust any analysts. I make my own stock decisions.
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post #43 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


Twice I point out the obvious, that Cramer condemns himself and twice you try to deflect. I don't get it. I was simply posting a reference to at least one jerk admitting he tried to manipulate AAPL in reference to your OP about that very thing. Why the sarcastic attack?

For your information, I don't trust any analysts. I make my own stock decisions.

 

It's ok. 

He has invoked Troll Rules #1 and 12 for his interactions with you ;-)

 

Just follow this good advice instead:

 

There are two things to keep in mind about trolls:
1) They don't want to talk about the topic at hand. They want to talk about you, or themselves.
2) It's never too late to call out a troll. Even after you are five or more responses into the thread when you finally realized that you've been suckered, you may be incline to stick with it out of some misplaced pride or anger. Don't. You can't win debating a troll. All you can do is lower yourself to their level.

post #44 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

I never said Apple should release products prematurely. But I would like to see them get on a schedule where there aren't long gaps that create a vacuum that can be filled with FUD and D&G. Apple used to release iPads in the March quarter. Then with the iPad mini they got moved to the October quarter. Now the March quarter is basically empty, and most of the June quarter is too. Is there no way for Apple to space stuff out so they're not announcing everything in basically one quarter?

You keep saying this about releases on schedules. Realities about developing technologies, including production technologies, is never acknowledged by you.

It may be that it takes a year to get a product evolution underway. Remember there are frequently shortages when something like a new screen lamination or a new case material has to be integrated. They are always on the cutting edge.

In other words, get real.
post #45 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


Twice I point out the obvious, that Cramer condemns himself and twice you try to deflect. I don't get it. I was simply posting a reference to at least one jerk admitting he tried to manipulate AAPL in reference to your OP about that very thing. Why the sarcastic attack?

For your information, I don't trust any analysts. I make my own stock decisions.

 

Then why are you trusting what Cramer is saying.

 

Fomenting is a short term strategy. Good for a few hours in the day, and, while a company is not reporting, good for less than a week.

 

Apple has been in this pattern for a long time now. Locked in a channel. Fomenting or any other short term strategy is not what is affecting the stock. The price is a reflection of investors belief in the stock, derived from quarterly info and forecasts.

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post #46 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

Then why are you trusting what Cramer is saying.

Fomenting is a short term strategy. Good for a few hours in the day, and, while a company is not reporting, good for less than a week.

Apple has been in this pattern for a long time now. Locked in a channel. Fomenting or any other short term strategy is not what is affecting the stock. The price is a reflection of investors belief in the stock, derived from quarterly info and forecasts.

LOL Where did I say I trust Cramer? Far from it! My OP was simply a link a post here on AI to discussions about someone claiming they did. It was posted in support of your comic comment about 80 posts regarding stock manipulation would follow. It seems you did a knee jerk over the fact it was on a show by someone you seemingly dislike. I tried to point out it was not about the host ... OK moving on ....
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post #47 of 96

 

Alright, maybe "beg" is overstating it, but regardless the point about Apple controlling their own destiny stands.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #48 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by XamaX View Post

Wankers talking about other wankers and wanking. Sad, really.

So ... The hands-on variant can be called a circle jerk?1biggrin.gif

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post #49 of 96

How long have we been hearing it? Forever!

 

"Apple is doomed!"

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post #50 of 96
I Pray somebody will kick this mangy dog of a stock, AAPL, so it might go up pennies instead of shedding dollar$. Wall Street holds Tim Cook in ill regard and who can blame them. Under Cook's management mighty AAPL has turned into a predictable half a trick pony.
post #51 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

Good. Institutions do not care about the long term, the welfare of employees, or the quality of products. I'd like to see Apple go completely private. Then they don't have to answer to these so-called analysts.

 

Completely agree with that assessment. No uncaring/reckless outsiders to tell Apple what and how to do things.

post #52 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


LOL Where did I say I trust Cramer? Far from it! My OP was simply a link a post here on AI to discussions about someone claiming they did. It was posted in support of your comic comment about 80 posts regarding stock manipulation would follow. It seems you did a knee jerk over the fact it was on a show by someone you seemingly dislike. I tried to point out it was not about the host ... OK moving on ....

 

... and then you overlook everything I just said.

 

Classic.

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post #53 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by manicakes View Post
 

This is bullish data. The institutional ownership "pendulum" was at the opposite end when AAPL was 700 and we should have been bearish. As an AAPL long I want to see as many shares as possible liquidated by institutions (in order to buy GOOG, TSLA, etc) and end up retired by Pete Oppenheimer, never to be traded again. ...

 

I couldn't agree more. Institutional shareholding is a perfect example of my favourite "law of human nature". "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". The ability of fewer people to trade massive shares is what provides the "opportunity" for manipulation to flourish. In my opinion, this latest trend is just another way to "scare" the share price of Apple downward. Mark my words, when the price gets significantly lower, the institutional percentage will grow back. They push prices up or down .... we're just along for the ride. The reasoning for this action is not unlike the "reasoning" for : Why does a dog lick its balls? .... Because it can. The only cure for both is to take away the power. Not  gonna happen in my lifetime, unfortunately.

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See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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post #54 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Alright, maybe "beg" is overstating it, but regardless the point about Apple controlling their own destiny stands.

Totally agree with you, I am well aware of the dire straights Apple was in at the time. Huge shame about the ARM investment too.

I just always take the opportunity post such links anytime this issue is raised to battle the entrenched urban legend of Bill saving Steve out of the goodness of his heart . Gates was a thieving bastard.
Edited by digitalclips - 2/26/14 at 11:41am
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post #55 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

... and then you overlook everything I just said.

Classic.

Classic what? Everything you said was irrelevant to my post, hence ignored. I never once attempted to delve into Cramer's ramblings other than add him to your '80' list, intended as a humor. 'For the umpteenth time, all I did was try to go along with your original joke. Go back and look. Perhaps my error was assuming you were posting light heartedly when perhaps you were not, in which case, my bad. I seem to have touched a nerve accidentally.
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post #56 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post

You keep saying this about releases on schedules. Realities about developing technologies, including production technologies, is never acknowledged by you.

It may be that it takes a year to get a product evolution underway. Remember there are frequently shortages when something like a new screen lamination or a new case material has to be integrated. They are always on the cutting edge.

In other words, get real.
How is it that other companies are able to release things in more than one quarter? And how is it that Apple used to release products in the first half of the year The first 3 generations of iPad were announced in Q1. Presumably they were working on stuff in 2013 (and prior) for release in 2014. But why does everything get crammed in to one quarter? That's what I have issues with, and why I'm hoping we'll get something at WWDC. I have a hard time believing Apple's product development cycles now only allow them to release products in Septemner and October.
post #57 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post

I Pray somebody will kick this mangy dog of a stock, AAPL, so it might go up pennies instead of shedding dollar$. Wall Street holds Tim Cook in ill regard and who can blame them. Under Cook's management mighty AAPL has turned into a predictable half a trick pony.
you forgot /s
post #58 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrboba1 View Post

It's ok. 
He has invoked Troll Rules #1 and 12 for his interactions with you ;-)

Just follow this good advice instead:

There are two things to keep in mind about trolls:

1) They don't want to talk about the topic at hand. They want to talk about you, or themselves.

2) It's never too late to call out a troll. Even after you are five or more responses into the thread when you finally realized that you've been suckered, you may be incline to stick with it out of some misplaced pride or anger. Don't
. You can't win debating a troll. All you can do is lower yourself to their level.

LOL, thanks, to be honest I don't think he is or was being a troll, somehow he totally misunderstood my post and it was probably my fault for not using an emoticon. I have tried to explain to no avail.
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post #59 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


Classic what? Everything you said was irrelevant to my post, hence ignored. I never once attempted to delve into Cramer's ramblings other than add him to your '80' list, intended as a humor. 'For the umpteenth time, all I did was try to go along with your original joke. Go back and look. Perhaps my error was assuming you were posting light heartedly when perhaps you were not, in which case, my bad. I seem to have touched a nerve accidentally.

 

You're right. I took it the wrong way.

 

My sincere apologies.

 

I f*cked up.

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post #60 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post

I Pray somebody will kick this mangy dog of a stock, AAPL, so it might go up pennies instead of shedding dollar$. Wall Street holds Tim Cook in ill regard and who can blame them. Under Cook's management mighty AAPL has turned into a predictable half a trick pony.

I can understand anyone buying in to AAPL mid way though Tim's reign feeling that way, but to be fair check out AAPL since Tim became CFO, he has been been pretty involved in Apple's success. I certainly would like to see APPL back where it belongs on merit but I doubt there is anyone that could do a better job just now. I often wonder of a guy like Elon Musk might do the trick and Tim go back to being CFO but who could do it?
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post #61 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

You're right. I took it the wrong way.

My sincere apologies.

I f*cked up.

No problems. 1smile.gif
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post #62 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


I can understand anyone buying in to AAPL mid way though Tim's reign feeling that way, but to be fair check out AAPL since Tim became CFO, he has been been pretty involved in Apple's success. I certainly would like to see APPL back where it belongs on merit but I doubt there is anyone that could do a better job just now. I often wonder of a guy like Elon Musk might do the trick and Tim go back to being CFO but who could do it?

+1 Someone like Elon Musk would bring élan to Apple. Unfortunately the Musks of the world a few and far between but if the stars align properly, these two companies could benefit from mutual synergies. Something tells me Musk is headed for Apple's Board but I think Apple has to reinvent itself on its own. For now Apple's predictable product cycle and lineup has been "priced in" and discounted by Wall Street and in the marketplace.  

 

Which begs the question, whatever happened to Apple'a magic? AAPL's valuation will remain tragic until Apple can prove it's still capable of producing "new" magic!

post #63 of 96

So what.

 

Record quarter just past, selling all the right things in terms of the market. 

post #64 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


I can understand anyone buying in to AAPL mid way though Tim's reign feeling that way, but to be fair check out AAPL since Tim became CFO, he has been been pretty involved in Apple's success. I certainly would like to see APPL back where it belongs on merit but I doubt there is anyone that could do a better job just now. I often wonder of a guy like Elon Musk might do the trick and Tim go back to being CFO but who could do it?


Tim was never CFO

post #65 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post


Tim was never CFO

My bad I should have said COO. None of these titles are natural to me coming from UK.
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post #66 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post

+1 Someone like Elon Musk would bring élan to Apple. Unfortunately the Musks of the world a few and far between but if the stars align properly, these two companies could benefit from mutual synergies. Something tells me Musk is headed for Apple's Board but I think Apple has to reinvent itself on its own. For now Apple's predictable product cycle and lineup has been "priced in" and discounted by Wall Street and in the marketplace.  

Which begs the question, whatever happened to Apple'a magic? AAPL's valuation will remain tragic until Apple can prove it's still capable of producing "new" magic!

Believe me I would like to see it back.
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post #67 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

So what.

Record quarter just past, selling all the right things in terms of the market. 

The sales over Christmas must have been staggering. We called every family member we know asking if they would like our cast off iPad retinas as we got two new iPad Airs. Turned out they all had got or treated themselves to iPad Airs for Christmas too!
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post #68 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post

+1 Someone like Elon Musk would bring élan to Apple. Unfortunately the Musks of the world a few and far between but if the stars align properly, these two companies could benefit from mutual synergies. Something tells me Musk is headed for Apple's Board but I think Apple has to reinvent itself on its own. For now Apple's predictable product cycle and lineup has been "priced in" and discounted by Wall Street and in the marketplace.  

Which begs the question, whatever happened to Apple'a magic? AAPL's valuation will remain tragic until Apple can prove it's still capable of producing "new" magic!
Steve Jobs can't be replaced. Bringing in someone like Elon Musk would look like a desperate attempt to clone Jobs. It would make the current executive team look weak.

Just curious what "magic" came from Apple between 2001 and 2007 besides the iTunes Store?
post #69 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


Nonsense. Institutional shareholding horizons are much shorter than those of individuals.

Moreover, they're most of the marginal traders (and hence, drivers of volatility) in the market.

What about the Federal Reserve pushing stimulus money into the market? Is that manipulation in the long run going to be a problem since they started to pull back from 85 billion to now 65 billion? Clearly they are going to slowly pull back. People talk about manipulation isn't the Fed one of the biggest offenders?

post #70 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


The sales over Christmas must have been staggering. We called every family member we know asking if they would like our cast off iPad retinas as we got two new iPad Airs. Turned out they all had got or treated themselves to iPad Airs for Christmas too!

I said this a while back when you are at the top there isn only one place to go, down. It's going to be hard for Apple to meet expectations even with record sales. If they miss even by a little the stock is going to take a hit like it did last time. In the US we love to do two things build up the underdog and then tear them down. 

post #71 of 96

The potential for Apple is there. The TV, the games, the wearable, bigger phones, payment, cheaper phones, ipad pro, ...   Problem is Apple is not delivering anything but incremental upgrades of existhing product.  The stock needs a cataclyst, or hope of something to rise.

 

That being said, if institutional investment are low, when something do happens, the stock will rise quickly because they will all want to move in at the same time with huge amount of money.

post #72 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Just curious what "magic" came from Apple between 2001 and 2007 besides the iTunes Store?

 

ipods ?  Also, the iphone didnt magicly appear in 2007, must have been cooking for years before that.

post #73 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

ipods ?  Also, the iphone didnt magicly appear in 2007, must have been cooking for years before that.
I guess I should have been more clear. I meant between iPod and iPhone. And yes Apple was working on iPhone during time. Presumably they're doing the same one with whatever new categories they're looking at. But honestly between the iPod and iPhone there was one game changing product and that was the iTunes Store.

If Apple's release schedule was spread out a bit more maybe we wouldn't be having these conversations. Big gaps with silence from Apple where they're not controlling the narrative only lead to FUD and D&G. We don't have new products to talk about so we're talking about anemic stock performance instead.
post #74 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

Steve Jobs can't be replaced. Bringing in someone like Elon Musk would look like a desperate attempt to clone Jobs. It would make the current executive team look weak.

Just curious what "magic" came from Apple between 2001 and 2007 besides the iTunes Store?

This is probably why Steve picked a solid guy able to take the heat. No one will ever match up yet anyone who ever tried would be matched up like it or not and fail however good they are. I wonder if any top likely candidates would even want that level of misery. Tim deserves a lot of credit for just being there, let alone doing a fantastic job, even if not full of Steve's magic.
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post #75 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


But your assuming all Apple has up its sleeve as a so-called "iWatch" AND that there will be a continued decline in profits from existing products. If that's really how investors feel then let Apple keep buying back shares and maybe they can eventually take the company private.

 

I'm not assuming anything about Apple.  I'm just trying to point out a logical argument why institutional investors are light on Apple.  Obviously if Apple has a secret magic rabbit to pull out of their hat that will add another $20bil in profits their stock should do tremendously.

 

But you seem to be suggesting that people should be investing in Apple based on 'secret projects only Apple knows about that may or may not be super-big.'  If you're a believer with a lot of faith.....  have at it.  But that is the very thing Apple fans gripe about....  "How come only Apple is expected to come up with something big?"   You can't have I both ways.  Apple either needs to find a way to turn around the decline in phone profits, or they need to release the Ta-Da product.   If they don't that is fine too, they will continue to provide some of the best products out there- but they will be making less money and hence their shares will be worth less than if they were making more money.

 

Given the current 'knowns' of iPhones, iPads, iMacs, iTunes, iPods, iTv, and iWatches- none of them really matter all that much to Apples valuation other than the iPhone (and to a much lesser extent the iPad).  Apple sold more iPhones and iPads than ever before last year and made less money on them.  That was in a market still growing nicely.  The market is getting flatter every year.  Why do you believe their profits, specifically from phones, will not continue to decline?  Are they going to be able to raise the price and sell even more of them?  AT&T just today announced free international texting (awesome for consumers!).  They acknowledged it was largely due to heat from T-Mobile, and have already stated their goal is to follow suit and get rid of subsidies.  Do you believe getting rid of subsidies would be good or bad for Apple's profits?

 

'Taking the company private' seems to be something people throw out whenever there is negative speculation on Apple's share price (such as this article).  But what would Apple do differently if they were private?  If anything I think Apple is continuing to behave independently of what Wall Street thinks and should be commended for it.  What products do you think they rushed or what decisions of theirs do you think they have made to bow to Wall Street?  I really don't see any.  Despite the lower holding from institutions they *still* own over 60% of Apple, so people wishing they'd take their ball and go home should probably reconsider.

 

It would be a different story if Apple was flailing around wildly trying to appease Wall Street (much like Yahoo a few years ago)- but they simply aren't.  They're still busy being Apple and the stock is still doing quite nicely recently despite that.

post #76 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou View Post

The potential for Apple is there. The TV, the games, the wearable, bigger phones, payment, cheaper phones, ipad pro, ...   Problem is Apple is not delivering anything but incremental upgrades of existhing product.  The stock needs a cataclyst, or hope of something to rise.

That being said, if institutional investment are low, when something do happens, the stock will rise quickly because they will all want to move in at the same time with huge amount of money.
I've said on this thread and others that I don't like the big gap between product announcements. But as far as "incremental updates", we had plenty of years under Jobs whereby today's standards Apple's product releases would have been considered "incremental updates".

I suppose Apple could release a smart watch just because it would be something new/different but we have yet to see a real market for them. So far it's just tech geeks buying them. One, because most of them aren't very fashionable, and two, because what they do isn't that much different than what a smartphone already does. So it's pretty duplicative and who wants to spend $200-$300 on something just because you occasionally don't feel like pulling your phone out of your pocket? That's why I hope whatever Apple is working on will be different than the Pebble/Gear already on the market.
post #77 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlApple View Post

What about the Federal Reserve pushing stimulus money into the market? Is that manipulation in the long run going to be a problem since they started to pull back from 85 billion to now 65 billion? Clearly they are going to slowly pull back. People talk about manipulation isn't the Fed one of the biggest offenders?

It is precisely the Feds job to 'manipulate' (although that's not the word I would use). They've done a bloody brilliant job these past five years. All the chicken little fears have not come to pass (as sensible people expected).
post #78 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood View Post

I'm not assuming anything about Apple.  I'm just trying to point out a logical argument why institutional investors are light on Apple.  Obviously if Apple has a secret magic rabbit to pull out of their hat that will add another $20bil in profits their stock should do tremendously.

But you seem to be suggesting that people should be investing in Apple based on 'secret projects only Apple knows about that may or may not be super-big.'  If you're a believer with a lot of faith.....  have at it.  But that is the very thing Apple fans gripe about....  "How come only Apple is expected to come up with something big?"   You can't have I both ways.  Apple either needs to find a way to turn around the decline in phone profits, or they need to release the Ta-Da product.   If they don't that is fine too, they will continue to provide some of the best products out there- but they will be making less money and hence their shares will be worth less than if they were making more money.

Given the current 'knowns' of iPhones, iPads, iMacs, iTunes, iPods, iTv, and iWatches- none of them really matter all that much to Apples valuation other than the iPhone (and to a much lesser extent the iPad).  Apple sold more iPhones and iPads than ever before last year and made less money on them.  That was in a market still growing nicely.  The market is getting flatter every year.  Why do you believe their profits, specifically from phones, will not continue to decline?  Are they going to be able to raise the price and sell even more of them?  AT&T just today announced free international texting (awesome for consumers!).  They acknowledged it was largely due to heat from T-Mobile, and have already stated their goal is to follow suit and get rid of subsidies.  Do you believe getting rid of subsidies would be good or bad for Apple's profits?

'Taking the company private' seems to be something people throw out whenever there is negative speculation on Apple's share price (such as this article).  But what would Apple do differently if they were private?  If anything I think Apple is continuing to behave independently of what Wall Street thinks and should be commended for it.  What products do you think they rushed or what decisions of theirs do you think they have made to bow to Wall Street?  I really don't see any.  Despite the lower holding from institutions they *still* own over 60% of Apple, so people wishing they'd take their ball and go home should probably reconsider.

It would be a different story if Apple was flailing around wildly trying to appease Wall Street (much like Yahoo a few years ago)- but they simply aren't.  They're still busy being Apple and the stock is still doing quite nicely recently despite that.
Fair points. I do think if Apple could spread out product launches across the year things might be different. We could be talking about new iPads or a new Apple TV instead of Apple's stock price and wondering when new stuff is coming out. Or the nonsense around wanting Apple to make some large acquisition just because everyone else is doing it. Mind share is very important and Apple going quiet for 6-8 months at a time doesn't help things.
post #79 of 96
Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post
 

 Someone like Elon Musk would bring élan to Apple. 

Well, Elon does have style, energy and enthusiasm, but so far, has only (recently) produced a profit once in 10 years, and that required other auto manufacturers to subsidize him, along with millions of taxpayers in California. That's known as "all hat, no cattle". Tim's record is more enviable.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmichaels/2013/05/27/if-tesla-would-stop-selling-cars-wed-all-save-some-money/

 
....Which begs the question, whatever happened to Apple'a magic?  AAPL's valuation will remain tragic until Apple can prove it's still capable of producing "new" magic!

Apple has the leading product in most, if not all, of the marketplaces it competes in. This is obvious by record setting profits and by all of it's competitors rushing (and failing) to copy the success of Apple.  That's the "true magic".  Just because the stock market reacts to hype rather than actual performance is not the fault of Apple, but rather that of the total greed and manipulation of the financial industry.

See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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See, in the record business, you can show someone your song, and they don’t copy it. In the tech business, you show somebody your idea, and they steal it. (Jimmy Iovine)
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post #80 of 96

shareholder meeting in friday will be interesting, possibly dividend increase, but not sure if it helps, as lot of companies increase dividends, make buybacks, etc.

 

we will have to wait to another earnings report and hope that sales in China will help. Or sales in USA, which was poor in last Q.

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