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Arizona governor vetoes gay discrimination bill Apple rallied against - Page 5

post #161 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddfield View Post

Hey Rogifan, you may or not be gay, but when laws like this directly effect you and/or your family, you might care more. I'm gay, so when people vote on MY EQUAL RIGHTS, I pay attention. Just because something doesn't personally effect you, doesn't mean it's not important. 
There are going to be people who do things with which you disagree. That's a consequence of living in a free society. You want to take away the right of the business owner to decide what he/she wants to do on his or her property. That's not ok.
post #162 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyouneed View Post

There are going to be people who do things with which you disagree. That's a consequence of living in a free society. You want to take away the right of the business owner to decide what he/she wants to do on his or her property. That's not ok.

There are going to be people who do things with which you disagree. That's a consequence of living in a free society. You want to take away the right of a human being to have pursuit of happiness as you. That's not ok.

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post #163 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

There are going to be people who do things with which you disagree. That's a consequence of living in a free society. You want to take away the right of a human being to have pursuit of happiness as you. That's not ok.

It's not the governments job to protect you from getting your feelings hurt. Maybe you could make a website that lists homophobic businesses and tells people not to shop there. That's how people in a free society behave. Not go crying to the government as it seems like you would suggest.
post #164 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyouneed View Post

It's not the governments job to protect you from getting your feelings hurt. Maybe you could make a website that lists homophobic businesses and tells people not to shop there. That's how people in a free society behave. Not go crying to the government as it seems like you would suggest.

1) It's quite impossible for my feelings to get hurt over this civil rights issue.

2) So are you saying that no civil rights issue in the history of the United States should ever been determined by a local, state or federal government in order to put an end to discrimination?

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post #165 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) It's quite impossible for my feelings to get hurt over this civil rights issue.

2) So are you saying that no civil rights issue in the history of the United States should ever been determined by a local, state or federal government in order to put an end to discrimination?

No, the government has no role in protecting discrimination. Also let me remind you that the government enforced segregation with Jim Crow laws.
post #166 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyouneed View Post

No, the government has no role in protecting discrimination. Also let me remind you that the government enforced segregation with Jim Crow laws.


1) I agree, the gov't should have no role in PROTECTING discrimination.

2) You just stated they had no role in protecting discrimination which you followed up with proof of the gov't doing just that.

3) The US, like most countries, has a sorted past but the goal to make the future better for everyone not just the people whose skin colour and sexual orientation you find most deserving.

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post #167 of 322

When is Apple going to come out and stick up for my rights for a change?

 

I am not gay, I am not transgender, I am not a minority, and I am not an illegal.

 

I'm a white male, I'm not a liberal, and I like women, what an evil combination! I am also for legalized marijuana. Now why doesn't Apple come out in support of that, since they're obviously a very politically minded company, and they're not afraid of stating their views when they need to?

 

Marijuana is no less important than any gay issue. I'd say that it's more important since being gay is not illegal in the USA, and gays aren't being locked up for merely being gay. Unlike marijuana, which is illegal federally, and many people are behind bars for this total non-crime. Now that sounds like a real civil rights issue. 

 

Gays should just relax (as long as they don't live in Russia, Uganda or a number of other weird countries), because gay rights have come a long way in the US, these past few decades.

 

I am honestly tired of hearing about gay rights, minority rights and the rights of those who don't even deserve any rights, illegal rights. I also think that hate crime laws are flawed, because they give protected status to certain groups, while denying the same to others. Everybody should be equal under the law.

 

It's also a sad state of things when a thread like this is the busiest in a while here. That just goes to show how little is happening around Apple at the moment.

post #168 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) I agree, the gov't should have no role in PROTECTING discrimination.

2) You just stated they had no role in protecting discrimination which you followed up with proof of the gov't doing just that.

3) The US, like most countries, has a sorted past but the goal to make the future better for everyone not just the people whose skin colour and sexual orientation you find most deserving.

Actually, the government is doing a horrible job at making the future better for all of us. They are destroying the value of our money and burdening us with impossible debt. These type issues are just a distraction from the real economic discrimination that the government has created.
post #169 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

When is Apple going to come out and stick up for my rights for a change?

I am not gay, I am not transgender, I am not a minority, and I am not an illegal.

I'm a white male, I'm not a liberal, and I like women, what an evil combination! I am also for legalized marijuana. Now why doesn't Apple come out in support of that, since they're obviously a very politically minded company, and they're not afraid of stating their views when they need to?

Marijuana is no less important than any gay issue. I'd say that it's more important since being gay is not illegal in the USA, and gays aren't being locked up for merely being gay. Unlike marijuana, which is illegal federally, and many people are behind bars for this total non-crime. Now that sounds like a real civil rights issue. 

Gays should just relax (as long as they don't live in Russia, Uganda or a number of other weird countries), because gay rights have come a long way in the US, these past few decades.

I am honestly tired of hearing about gay rights, minority rights and the rights of those who don't even deserve any rights, illegal rights. I also think that hate crime laws are flawed, because they give protected status to certain groups, while denying the same to others. Everybody should be equal under the law.

It's also a sad state of things when a thread like this is the busiest in a while here. That just goes to show how little is happening around Apple at the moment.

1) How is Apple against you being a white male who likes women? What civil rights are being preventing by you liking to smoke weed? Are potheads not allowed to get married in your state?

2) Marijuana is no less important? WTF are you smoking? Oh, never mind.

3) Lots of things have come a long way but until there are equal rights there are still a ways to go.

4) Everybody — not every thing — should be equal under the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyouneed View Post

Actually, the government is doing a horrible job at making the future better for all of us. They are destroying the value of our money and burdening us with impossible debt. These type issues are just a distraction from the real economic discrimination that the government has created.

1) You are so right¡ The US government just bought a bunch of bitcoins and magic beans¡ Now the magic beans were from Monsanto so that actually could be worth something.

2) All just a big distraction¡ I bet the US government coverts people to gaydism just so they lure people away from the issues of how the Obama is stealing all your gold.
Edited by SolipsismX - 2/26/14 at 11:27pm

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post #170 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) How is Apple against you being a white male who likes women? What civil rights are being preventing by you liking to smoke weed? Are potheads not allowed to get married in your state?

2) Marijuana is no less important? WTF are you smoking? Oh, never mind.

3) Lots of things have come a long way but until there are equal rights there are still a ways to go.

4) Everybody — not every thing — should be equal under the law.

You don't make people equal under the law by giving certain groups special privileges. Gays are being given the privilege of not being refused service. As a hetero, I can be refused service, so things are not equal under the law.
post #171 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyouneed View Post

You don't make people equal under the law by giving certain groups special privileges. Gays are being given the privilege of not being refused service. As a hetero, I can be refused service, so things are not equal under the law.

1) You mean that special privilege to get married to the person they love? What a bunch of takers¡

2) You can be refused to have your marriage to a single women who is also not otherwise married acknowledged under the law in your state? Well, yeah, if she's your sister, daughter or mother, but you're taking a pretty big step there if you want to argue that "the gays" shouldn't be allowed to marry until you can marry someone in your immediate family.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #172 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) You mean that special privilege to get married to the person they love? What a bunch of takers¡

2) You can be refused to have your marriage to a single women who is also not otherwise married acknowledged under the law in your state? Well, yeah, if she's your sister, daughter or mother, but you're taking a pretty big step there if you want to argue that "the gays" shouldn't be allowed to marry until you can marry someone in your immediate family.

I don't think the government should define marriage at all. People should be able to do whatever they want and call it whatever they want.
post #173 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyouneed View Post

I don't think the government should define marriage at all. People should be able to do whatever they want and call it whatever they want.

I agree with part of that and mentioned it pages ago. I think that marriage should only be defined and recognized by one's individual customs, but the government still needs to be aware of pairbonding if there are offspring so genetic accountability can be made.

As for people being able to do whatever they want your terms are not sound as stated. Do you think you should be able to build and set off your own nuclear weapon? I would hope not.

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #174 of 322
Hey MStone, why are Panamanians so hateful and ignorant? Is it their general lack of education, or their willingness to make comments about people and things they have zero experience with firsthand?

In reality, that was rhetorical, I don't really care what you think.
post #175 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post
 

We need laws that allow business owners to have values.  Even if some don't like them.


You seem to have 'values' and 'bigotry' confused.  Having glanced at some of your other posts, that would seem to be fairly typical.

post #176 of 322

In this thread: Straight white men explain why discrimination is OK.

post #177 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyouneed View Post

It's not the governments job to protect you from getting your feelings hurt. Maybe you could make a website that lists homophobic businesses and tells people not to shop there. That's how people in a free society behave. Not go crying to the government as it seems like you would suggest.
It seems like the people who went "crying to the government" in this case were the bigots in the AZ Senate.

I think in a perfect, reasonable world I agree with you, discrimination should sort itself out over time. The arc is always towards progress, right?

However, that can take a long time, and if discrimination is so widespread that a gay couple in AZ can't find any professional services that will take them as customers, well that's unconscionable. They could move out of state, right, but then that just reinforces Arizona as a fortress of bogotry, which is good for no one.

I don't think laws curtailing individuals freedoms to be bigots are a great solution, but if there's an endemic problem with discrimination then it might be the only practical way to get the ball rolling towards progress.

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post #178 of 322

Sometimes I'm happy not to live in the USA. The tone and theme of this discussion reassures me of that. In Denmark it'd be a much less heated discussion. And all your bible quotes....you can always pick a paragraph in that enormous book to make your statement look valuable. And anyway what do the words of the bible matter to someone doesn't believe in it?

People should just try harder to be kinder to each other, and be smarter. 

post #179 of 322

What values to discriminate against gays and transgender people.These people deserve a voice to be heard to.

post #180 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by namdarmd View Post
 

The 'right' to turn people away for equal service is basically segregation. We've passed that.  No, you cannot turn people away.  That is not democracy.

 

The right to choose whose services you want to use, that is democracy.  If I know a certain business does not treat its employees well, or contributes to KKK, it is my choice not to go to that business.  But if I were African-American and showed up to a clothing store owned by a member of KKK, the store owner cannot turn me away.  I hope you are smart enough to understand the difference.  But don't take my word on it. Ask any friends of yours who are lawyers and they will explain to you perhaps better than I can. 

 

Segregation was state-enforced. Jim Crow was state-mandated discrimination. A free society which forces people to do stuff is oxymoronic. That's like saying we're a free society, that's why we won't allow anybody to say anything mean to anyone else. Do understand that freedom means tolerating things you don't like?

post #181 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by echosonic View Post

Hey MStone, why are Panamanians so hateful and ignorant? Is it their general lack of education, or their willingness to make comments about people and things they have zero experience with firsthand?

In reality, that was rhetorical, I don't really care what you think.

That's harsh and racist. I know many Panamanians, and not one is hateful and/or ignorant.
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post #182 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post
 

But what if our creator actually made us male and female for a reason?  And marriage, too.

 

I understand you're point but its not a reason to discriminate. The "creator" is the only one with all the facts so he is the only one who can pass judgment. If I remember correctly Jesus said that "the one without sins can throw the first rock", since no one is without sins, then no one can do it.

post #183 of 322
Be extremely suspicious of anyone who is absolutely sure of what God wants.
post #184 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post
 

Which state had the wedding photographer case?  I assumed it was AZ, but apparently not?

It was NOT Arizonia. It was New Mexico. Anderson Cooper had one of the Arizonia Senators on his show who is a proponent of this Arizonia bill. It was made clear you could already turn away a gay person as a business person in Arizonia. This legislation was not needed to do that. The Senator also could not cite one example of there being a problem in Arizonia with a business who wanted to turn somebody away someone for being gay on religious grounds from not being able to do so. Then again the Senator was an idiot. This bill was passed just to appease some right winged religious groups as just a way to kick dirt in gay people's faces, as there is nothing preventing business people from turning away gay people now.

post #185 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacManFelix View Post

Be extremely suspicious of anyone who is absolutely sure of what God wants.

What God wants is easy, doing it is what's hard.
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post #186 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post
 

In this thread: Straight white men explain why discrimination is OK.

 

An Ad Hominem fallacy. 

post #187 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacManFelix View Post

Be extremely suspicious of anyone who is absolutely sure of what God wants.

And the opposite.

 

Quote:
 For myself, as, no doubt, for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaningless was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of morality. - Aldous Huxley
post #188 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post


I wasn't talking about biology or Catholocism.  I said, "What if our creator made us male and female for a reason?"

Sex and gender are exactly the same.

Before DNA showed us differently, it was easy to say, "Sex and gender are exactly the same."

Some people who have YY chromosomes, have the complete organs of a female, and identify themselves across the whole spectrum from female to male. Even some that Identify themselves as female, prefer a female lover. So, genetically they are more male than the average male, while physically they are female, and still can respond as if the DNA or the physical/hormonal body doesn't matter. The same thing applies to men with XX chromosomes.

While most gay and lesbian people have chromosomes that match their physical bodies, it would seem that a third unknown factor determines one's orientation. Until that factor is known, people, such as you, can make such "black/white" statements from the comfort of ignorance.

I'm very happy to have an orientation that matches my body type. Growing up to adulthood was trying enough for me to feel accepted as a person, without throwing on one more thing to deal with.
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post #189 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyouneed View Post


You don't make people equal under the law by giving certain groups special privileges. Gays are being given the privilege of not being refused service. As a hetero, I can be refused service, so things are not equal under the law.

 

Hmmm... I'm curious. When was the last time you were refused service and why?

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post #190 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyouneed View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) How is Apple against you being a white male who likes women? What civil rights are being preventing by you liking to smoke weed? Are potheads not allowed to get married in your state?

2) Marijuana is no less important? WTF are you smoking? Oh, never mind.

3) Lots of things have come a long way but until there are equal rights there are still a ways to go.

4) Everybody — not every thing — should be equal under the law.

You don't make people equal under the law by giving certain groups special privileges. Gays are being given the privilege of not being refused service. As a hetero, I can be refused service, so things are not equal under the law.

Actually if you were refused service because you hetero-sexual, it would be illegal in any state that has a law on discrimination for sexual orientation.
post #191 of 322
"Gays only, no norms allowed" I see this all the time¡

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post #192 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffrobinson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacManFelix View Post

Be extremely suspicious of anyone who is absolutely sure of what God wants.
And the opposite.
Quote:
 For myself, as, no doubt, for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaningless was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of morality. - Aldous Huxley

You think we should be suspicious of anyone who is not 100% sure of what God wants? Why? Anyone who is 100% sure of what God wants is delusional. Anyone who isn't 100% sure is sane.
post #193 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

 

An Ad Hominem fallacy. 

 

An Ad Hominem fallacy fallacy.

post #194 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

But if i own a business and would prefer not to sell a cake to a gay couple that should be my right. If they don't like it they can get a cake from someone else who will happily make one for them.

When you open for business you open for the public. That includes everyone. If you don't like it then don't bake a cake at all.
post #195 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post
 

Everyone should have the right to discriminate between right and wrong.

Some people think it is wrong that "mud people" are allowed to frequent the same facilities as "good white Christians".

 

Should those folks be allowed to discriminate between 'right and wrong"?  

post #196 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

We need laws that simply state that no state law or regulation could be construed as requiring any one party to enter into a contract with any other party.

Would municipalities be allowed to reject a contract that allows blacks to ride at the front of the bus?

post #197 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post
 
 

But what if our creator actually made us male and female for a reason?  And marriage, too.

 

Then we will all get smitten.  But don't hold your breath waiting.  

post #198 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyouneed View Post


You don't make people equal under the law by giving certain groups special privileges. Gays are being given the privilege of not being refused service. As a hetero, I can be refused service, so things are not equal under the law.

 

I repeat, sexual orientation is not a protected class in AZ. You can be discriminated against gays equally for being a hetero. But of course you wouldn't pretend to suggest you actually were. That would be certifiably idiotic. Straight white privilege owns the title for discrimination. Losing the unquestioned and unearned entitlement you've taken for granted may be hard to accept, but pretending to be a victim in the move towards equality isn't a credible argument. That simply displays gross ignorance of all actual victims through time.


Edited by nowayout11 - 2/27/14 at 7:12am
post #199 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) You mean that special privilege to get married to the person they love? What a bunch of takers¡

2) You can be refused to have your marriage to a single women who is also not otherwise married acknowledged under the law in your state? Well, yeah, if she's your sister, daughter or mother, but you're taking a pretty big step there if you want to argue that "the gays" shouldn't be allowed to marry until you can marry someone in your immediate family.

Actually, in UK, the issue of who can live together is vexed. If two homosexual men can get married and live together, they have better housing rights than two brothers living together, for example. That strikes me as unfair. I don't mean two brothers marrying, just sharing a house.
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post #200 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

There are no gay people.  Only heterosexual people with identity issues.

Are you being serious right now? 1confused.gif

He is.  He is saying "People choose to be homosexuals, so it is OK to discriminate against them".

 

But he cites a red herring - it doesn't really matter whether or not it is genetic or a choice.

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