or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Arizona governor vetoes gay discrimination bill Apple rallied against
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Arizona governor vetoes gay discrimination bill Apple rallied against - Page 7

post #241 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post
 

 

An Ad Hominem fallacy fallacy.

 

Good stuff, but my comment was not an example of improperly pointing your comment out as an Ad Hominem attack. You attempted to undermine a person's argument by referring to him  as a white heterosexual male thereby attacking the characteristics of the person to deflect from his argument.  I rarely point out an Ad Hominem attack, but your remark was a pretty textbook example. 

post #242 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyb0731 View Post
 


The Muslim caterer wouldn't have been selected by your fictional client. Generally when you're looking for caterers you'll have access to their menus and you wouldn't select one that doesn't have an item that you must have on their menu

 

So why then, when these gays found out the beliefs of the merchant would they persist in demanding that they do what they want like a spoiled petulant child with an overblown sense of entitlement?

 

That's just the first rebuttal to your statement.  Further ones could include, "But they're the best in the area and the customer is always right and gets what they want!"  and so on. 

post #243 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by locker 8755 View Post

Really tired of all the gay issues ....
What a terrible shame for you. It's tiring being a white male who is never discrimated against
post #244 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Apple View Post
 

 

Really?  Did you read the bill?  If so, please point out to me where it references or mentions "homosexuality".

 

A lot of folks here are commenting on something they have never seen nor read.

 

Here's a link to the bill, it's only two pages and a quick read: http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/SB-1062-bill.pdf

 

Ask yourself this though, why was the bill needed at all? There is no state law preventing people from denying to do business with another person for any reason at all anyway. This law actually gives religious people more freedom of choice then non-religious people. 

post #245 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfeltenberger View Post
 

 

So why then, when these gays found out the beliefs of the merchant would they persist in demanding that they do what they want like a spoiled petulant child with an overblown sense of entitlement?

 

That's just the first rebuttal to your statement.  Further ones could include, "But they're the best in the area and the customer is always right and gets what they want!"  and so on. 


Because it's a false analogy on your end. Say an atheist caterer does not serve pulled pork sandwiches. They can't be forced to serve something that they don't make just because somebody is willing to pay for them. However if they do make pulled pork sandwiches they shouldn't be able to not serve somebody based on gender, sexual orientation, race , religious affiliation, and so on

 

If you sell a good or service you should serve it to anybody willing to pay equally

post #246 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbriton View Post


What a terrible shame for you. It's tiring being a white male who is never discrimated against

White guys are discriminated against all the time. All the world's problems are blamed on white guys. Affirmative action discriminates. More women are going to college then men, yet there are all kinds of assistance programs for women but not white men at colleges. 

post #247 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post
 

White guys are discriminated against all the time. All the world's problems are blamed on white guys. Affirmative action discriminates. More women are going to college then men, yet there are all kinds of assistance programs for women but not white men at colleges. 

 

I'm a white straight male in America and this is such a poor argument. We have it better than anybody else. We as a group have never been oppressed nor have we not been in a position of power. We don't know what true discrimination is no matter your claims of it

post #248 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post
 

White guys are discriminated against all the time. All the world's problems are blamed on white guys. Affirmative action discriminates. More women are going to college then men, yet there are all kinds of assistance programs for women but not white men at colleges. 

 

LOL. Most often there is a good reason for that.

na na na na na...
Reply
na na na na na...
Reply
post #249 of 322

It seems the comments in this thread by people against gay rights or gay marriage can be boiled down to 1) Please be tolerant of my intolerance. 2) Gay rights have come a long way so be grateful for the progress and stop asking for more.

 

There is no war on religion, not now and not 200 years ago. Fox news would love you to believe there is but that is simply not true. If anything there is a knee jerk reaction where certain groups were given preferential treatment for a very long time and now that others demand equality there is a backlash. Repeat after me. "There is no war on religion!" Go to any church you want and believe or worship any God(s) you like but do not try and impose your beliefs on others. If anything there has been a war by the religious on everyone else that didn't share their belief system and now that other groups want to assert their rights as well, the poor Christians who have done a lot of the persecuting are now suddenly the persecuted in their minds at least.

 

Follow the golden rule and we won't have any problems.  

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

Reply

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

Reply
post #250 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyb0731 View Post
 


Because it's a false analogy on your end. Say an atheist caterer does not serve pulled pork sandwiches. They can't be forced to serve something that they don't make just because somebody is willing to pay for them. However if they do make pulled pork sandwiches they shouldn't be able to not serve somebody based on gender, sexual orientation, race , religious affiliation, and so on

 

If you sell a good or service you should serve it to anybody willing to pay equally

 

No, I shouldn't have to sell a good or service two whoever has money.  I should not be compelled to support something that is against my beliefs.  Let the market speak; if everyone turns against a business for not baking cakes, making t-shirts, or whatever for gays, then the business will fail.  But if people either don't care or support the business owner's right of choice, then the market will have also spoken.

 

BTW, if the atheist doesn't have any religious beliefs, then how can they use the argument, "We don't offer that because it's against our religious beliefs"?  They can't.  Yet it is a very valid argument for the Muslim.

 

What I don't understand is why these gays wanted businesses who don't want to work for them to provide goods and services for their event.  IMO, the real motivation for the suits wasn't one of equality, it was one of using the courts for revenge.

post #251 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfeltenberger View Post
 

 

No, I shouldn't have to sell a good or service two whoever has money.  I should not be compelled to support something that is against my beliefs.  Let the market speak; if everyone turns against a business for not baking cakes, making t-shirts, or whatever for gays, then the business will fail.  But if people either don't care or support the business owner's right of choice, then the market will have also spoken.

 

BTW, if the atheist doesn't have any religious beliefs, then how can they use the argument, "We don't offer that because it's against our religious beliefs"?  They can't.  Yet it is a very valid argument for the Muslim.

 

What I don't understand is why these gays wanted businesses who don't want to work for them to provide goods and services for their event.  IMO, the real motivation for the suits wasn't one of equality, it was one of using the courts for revenge.


Because you don't have to give a reason why you don't offer something. You just say "I'm sorry that's not on our menu" and the conversation ends. This is like trying to force a restaurant to serve you something off menu or a store to carry something that they don't carry. And yes businesses that are open to the public should be forced to take anybody's money for a service or good that they provide. Otherwise we might as well go back to segregation

post #252 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfeltenberger View Post
 

 

So why then, when these gays found out the beliefs of the merchant would they persist in demanding that they do what they want like a spoiled petulant child with an overblown sense of entitlement?

 

That's just the first rebuttal to your statement.  Further ones could include, "But they're the best in the area and the customer is always right and gets what they want!"  and so on. 

 

Only in a bigot's brain with a superiority complex does treating gay people equally count as "entitlement".

post #253 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowayout11 View Post
 

 

Only in a bigot's brain with a superiority complex does treating gay people equally count as "entitlement".

 

We are not entitled to everything everyone offers.  It doesn't matter what demographic boxes you have checked, we as a culture have a sense of entitlement that nobody can every deny us anything for any reason and if they do, we run to the courts. 

 

Care to drop the insults?  Otherwise, there really isn't much sense continuing this.

post #254 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Welcome to the 21st century, AZ and TX!

This bill seemed rather small by comparison. Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen Mauritania and Iran have the death penalty for someone that is gay. There are 66 countries have imprisonment laws for gays. Makes TX and AZ look like supporters of GLAAD. 

post #255 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfeltenberger View Post
 

 

No, I shouldn't have to sell a good or service two whoever has money.  I should not be compelled to support something that is against my beliefs.  Let the market speak; if everyone turns against a business for not baking cakes, making t-shirts, or whatever for gays, then the business will fail.  But if people either don't care or support the business owner's right of choice, then the market will have also spoken.

 

BTW, if the atheist doesn't have any religious beliefs, then how can they use the argument, "We don't offer that because it's against our religious beliefs"?  They can't.  Yet it is a very valid argument for the Muslim.

 

What I don't understand is why these gays wanted businesses who don't want to work for them to provide goods and services for their event.  IMO, the real motivation for the suits wasn't one of equality, it was one of using the courts for revenge.

 

Exactly how will these businesses determine who is gay or not? I have yet to hear a clear answer to that. If you do not want to serve someone because of their race, their choice of clothing, or many other things you can assess that with your eyes but beyond wedding cake bakers or wedding photographers exactly how would the bigots know who to refuse their goods or services to if a customer is gay? Surely you realize that there are plenty of very effeminate heterosexual males especially with all the so called metrosexuals around. There are also plenty of effeminate lesbians who might accidentally get served in a restaurant before they are discovered and asked to leave. :???:

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

Reply

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

Reply
post #256 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfeltenberger View Post
 

 

We are not entitled to everything everyone offers.  It doesn't matter what demographic boxes you have checked, we as a culture have a sense of entitlement that nobody can every deny us anything for any reason and if they do, we run to the courts. 

 

Care to drop the insults?  Otherwise, there really isn't much sense continuing this.

 

That's knowable false because as has been said multiple times in this thread, religion is a protected class. They were already and still are legally able to discriminate against gays in AZ. You should be happy about that, not feigning victimhood over losing nothing.

post #257 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post
 

 

Exactly how will these businesses determine who is gay or not? I have yet to hear a clear answer to that. If you do not want to serve someone because of their race, their choice of clothing, or many other things you can assess that with your eyes but beyond wedding cake bakers or wedding photographers exactly how would the bigots know who to refuse their goods or services to if a customer is gay? Surely you realize that there are plenty of very effeminate heterosexual males especially with all the so called metrosexuals around. There are also plenty of effeminate lesbians who might accidentally get served in a restaurant before they are discovered and asked to leave. :???:

 

Well...if two guys come into the bakery and say, "We're getting married and would like to order a cake", I think that's a good tip-off that they're not hetero...

post #258 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlApple View Post
 

This bill seemed rather small by comparison. Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen Mauritania and Iran have the death penalty for someone that is gay. There are 66 countries have imprisonment laws for gays. Makes TX and AZ look like supporters of GLAAD. 

It wasn't long ago that gay people were arrested just for being gay in Texas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas

 

If anyone wants to understand why it is now time to allow gay marriage in all 50 states and you have Netflix, watch this film called Bridegroom which may give you a very different perspective on gay marriage and gay rights and why so much more remains to be done.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2357788/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

Reply

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

Reply
post #259 of 322
[quote name="gwmac" url="/t/162201/arizona-governor-vetoes-gay-discrimination-bill-apple-rallied-against/240#post_2478892"... but do not try and impose your beliefs on others.
[/quote]

This works both ways.
post #260 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfeltenberger View Post
 

 

Well...if two guys come into the bakery and say, "We're getting married and would like to order a cake", I think that's a good tip-off that they're not hetero...

Then it is a good thing our economy is more diversified beyond wedding bakers and wedding photographers isn't it. Why is that the only example that people can come up with. Please explain how a hardware, pet, clothing, supermarket, and the thousands of other types of businesses would make that determination to not serve someone because they are gay. 

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

Reply

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

Reply
post #261 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

We need laws that simply state that no state law or regulation could be construed as requiring any one party to enter into a contract with any other party.

No we do not. We already have laws that cover this, you just do not like those laws. If sell to the public you cannot discriminate, period. Open a private club if you want to discriminate.

post #262 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post
 

White guys are discriminated against all the time. All the world's problems are blamed on white guys. Affirmative action discriminates. More women are going to college then men, yet there are all kinds of assistance programs for women but not white men at colleges. 

 

You're right. With all this discrimination against men, it's a surprise that there's so many rich white dudes out there. Maybe one day, we might even get a white male president.

post #263 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


But if i own a business and would prefer not to sell a cake to a gay couple that should be my right. If they don't like it they can get a cake from someone else who will happily make one for them.

No, if they don't like it let them get out "selling cakes to public" business. 

post #264 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfeltenberger View Post
 

So why then, when these gays found out the beliefs of the merchant would they persist in demanding that they do what they want like a spoiled petulant child with an overblown sense of entitlement?

 

 

 

That's just the way those people are.  I mean, I have nothing against them,  But when they keep throwing it all up in your face all the time, then I don't see why we should have to be forced to be anywhere near them.  Let them stay where they are welcomed - although I can't imagine what sort of a godforsaken Hell-hole that would be.  Maybe their own kind will take them in - but none of them are welcome in THIS part of town.  

 

We make sure that they stay away.  Yep.

 

-A sentiment that the OP might agree with, but one that horrifies me.

post #265 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SudoNym View Post
 

 

That's just the way those people are.  I mean, I have nothing against them,  But when they keep throwing it all up in your face all the time, then I don't see why we should have to be forced to be anywhere near them.  Let them stay where they are welcomed - although I can't imagine what sort of a godforsaken Hell-hole that would be.  Maybe their own kind will take them in - but none of them are welcome in THIS part of town.  

 

We make sure that they stay away.  Yep.

 

-A sentiment that the OP might agree with, but one that horrifies me.

 

How clever!

 

:-|

 

Where do you extrapolate advocating a business owner's right to choose who he or she does business with (and these are often small, mom and pop business with a handful of employees) and that raging bigoted diatribe that you burdened us with?  Projecting much?

post #266 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Ok well then I think vegetarian restaurants should be forced to serve meat because not doing so discriminates against consumers who prefer meat. And eating mets is perfectly legal in the United States. And I think CVS should have to reverse its policy of not selling cigarettes in its stores because that is discriminating against smokers, many of whom I'm sure shopped at CVS for other items as well. Last time I checked, smoking cigarettes is perfectly legal in the United States.

Exactly!  Why the smokers have to go outside in the cold to smoke.  That's  discrimination.  You say because tobacco is bad for health.  Prove it.  There is no direct prove so far.  If there is, cigarette would have already been banned by the FDA.

post #267 of 322

As I said... it's hopeless.

na na na na na...
Reply
na na na na na...
Reply
post #268 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post
 

Exactly!  Why the smokers have to go outside in the cold to smoke.  That's  discrimination.  You say because tobacco is bad for health.  Prove it.  There is no direct prove so far.  If there is, cigarette would have already been banned by the FDA.

If you're that guy..you know that last guy on earth who can't read or even bother to look up scientific data then please exit stage left. Nothing to see here.

post #269 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfeltenberger View Post
 
 

How clever!

 

:-|

 

Where do you extrapolate advocating a business owner's right to choose who he or she does business with (and these are often small, mom and pop business with a handful of employees) and that raging bigoted diatribe that you burdened us with?  Projecting much?

 

I was attempting to repurpose arguments made long ago during the Civil Rights Movement, and to use them in the current context.  I was attempting to shed light on current attitudes by lampooning attitudes of a bygone era.

 

I thought that much was clear. 

post #270 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit View Post

It's very scary to see so many people thinking that it would be okay for the USA to become a theocracy.

You gotta remember about half the country are Republicans, and about half that number are "frothing-at-the-mouth, God-was-a-white-man, tea-bag-waving, it's-my-way-or-the-highway, make-the-mother-have-the-rapist's-kid-but-deny-the-kid-food-stamps, homophobic old angry white men.
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
Reply
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
Reply
post #271 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post

Exactly!  Why the smokers have to go outside in the cold to smoke.  That's  discrimination.  You say because tobacco is bad for health.  Prove it.  There is no direct prove so far.  If there is, cigarette would have already been banned by the FDA.

Where do you people come from?

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #272 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post

Exactly!  Why the smokers have to go outside in the cold to smoke.  That's  discrimination.  You say because tobacco is bad for health.  Prove it.  There is no direct prove so far.  If there is, cigarette would have already been banned by the FDA.

You believe that smoking may not be bad for your health... how quaint. By the way, how's that flat earth thing working out for you??
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
Reply
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
Reply
post #273 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Where do you people come from?

 

I'm a bit surprised to know that person can write.

na na na na na...
Reply
na na na na na...
Reply
post #274 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanessaD View Post
 

If you're that guy..you know that last guy on earth who can't read or even bother to look up scientific data then please exit stage left. Nothing to see here.


I'm pretty sure that one was extremely sarcastic in nature

post #275 of 322

My children who don't live in the USA have done projects on Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King.  Both are held up as courageous examples of what people in the USA can achieve, and also how far the USA has come.

 

Some 60 years later it seems a number of you wouldn't allow Rosa Parks to sit on that bus if she were a lesbian.  Indeed some would even say  she is "like a spoiled petulant child with an overblown sense of entitlement" for demanding the seat.

 

It's staggering that a country like the USA can be so closed minded versus its peers, and the comparisons to Uganda, Saudi Arabia and Iran should be a bit of a wake up call.  Most would expect you to be more like Denmark, Canada or Norway. 

post #276 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanessaD View Post

If you're that guy..you know that last guy on earth who can't read or even bother to look up scientific data then please exit stage left. Nothing to see here.

You may have to explain what direction is left.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #277 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMac View Post
 

My children who don't live in the USA have done projects on Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King.  Both are held up as courageous examples of what people in the USA can achieve, and also how far the USA has come.

 

Some 60 years later it seems a number of you wouldn't allow Rosa Parks to sit on that bus if she were a lesbian.  Indeed some would even say  she is "like a spoiled petulant child with an overblown sense of entitlement" for demanding the seat.

 

It's staggering that a country like the USA can be so closed minded versus its peers, and the comparisons to Uganda, Saudi Arabia and Iran should be a bit of a wake up call.  Most would expect you to be more like Denmark, Canada or Norway.

 

I sincerely doubt there is anyone here (participating in this conversation) who would take the position you are asserting in your second paragraph.  Remember, in the 60s and before there was government sactioned, government enforced discrimination against blacks and other minorities.  There were "whites only" drinking fountains in public (i.e., government) buildings.  That's disgraceful and RP and MLK are rightfully lauded for their brave efforts to address those injustices.

 

Where it get murky, and this is where many people cannot understand or refuse to accept a critical distinction, is when the discrimination is done by private actors and not the government.  This was happening (and still happens), but is a whole different kettle of fish.  Do I think you should refuse to serve someone because you don't like their "lifestyle" or religion or color or gender or whatever?  In most cases, of course not.  Do I think you should have legal recourse against that person who make this ill-advised/offensive decision?  In most cases, no.  If you have a monopoly or are performing some critical service, then maybe, but not for normal day to day stuff.  If some idiot wants to start a gays-only car sharing service or a whites-only laudromat, then so be it.  I am free to boycott or consume those services as I see fit.  Maybe I even pass myself off as gay so I can use the former.  We don't need the government stepping in in any case.  And we certainly don't need a judge deciding whether the person was justified in discriminating because of a "valid" religious conviction or an "invalid" other reason.

 

So, you see, this isn't a question of "hate filled Christian gay bashers" on one sides and freedom loving liberals on the other.

post #278 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post


You gotta remember about half the country are Republicans, and about half that number are "frothing-at-the-mouth, God-was-a-white-man, tea-bag-waving, it's-my-way-or-the-highway, make-the-mother-have-the-rapist's-kid-but-deny-the-kid-food-stamps, homophobic old angry white men.

Huh.  No wonder we have a Social Security/Medicare funding crisis since 25% of us are "old men."  Actually it's more than that since there have to be some old men who aren't frothing or waving.

 

But do have fun demonizing anyone who disagrees with you if that's what you need to do to justify your own self worth.

post #279 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

1) Sure, there are haters on the left, center and right, and in every party but that's irrelevant.

2) This is a civil rights issue. Nothing more, nothing less. I would much prefer if marriage were to simply go away altogether but if one group of consenting adults is allowed to get married I think all consenting adults should be allowed to get married.

3) As for not making one "hateful" if they don't like gay marriage is it not "hateful" if one were to say, "I don't hate black people but I don't think they should be able to share the same water fountains and bathrooms as whites"? I don't put the same weight behind each of these civil rights movements but I do believe they are all discrimination based on hate.

I don't think that it is that cut and dried. If you don't agree with a certain life style then that is your opinion. If you get to the point where you would try to harm someone because you don't agree with that lifestyle, then you have crossed the line. Everyone discriminates at least in thought, every day of their lives. It is human nature. Even gay people do. Whether you don't like religious people, smokers, meat eaters, people who drive big SUVs or people who use Android phones for that matter, if you say or think something unkind toward them then you are being prejudiced against a segment of the population. That being said, it was a stupid bill that should never have been written in the first place.
post #280 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by kfeltenberger View Post
 

 

No, I shouldn't have to sell a good or service two whoever has money.  I should not be compelled to support something that is against my beliefs.  Let the market speak; if everyone turns against a business for not baking cakes, making t-shirts, or whatever for gays, then the business will fail.  But if people either don't care or support the business owner's right of choice, then the market will have also spoken.

 

BTW, if the atheist doesn't have any religious beliefs, then how can they use the argument, "We don't offer that because it's against our religious beliefs"?  They can't.  Yet it is a very valid argument for the Muslim.

 

What I don't understand is why these gays wanted businesses who don't want to work for them to provide goods and services for their event.  IMO, the real motivation for the suits wasn't one of equality, it was one of using the courts for revenge.

 

What if that business owner made an arbitrary decision, called you gay because maybe he didn't like your clothes or your haircut and kicked you out of their store?

 

What would you do then?

 

Maybe he could hang a picture of a penis behind the counter and watch that your eyes don't linger too long as a test, before booting you out.

Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Arizona governor vetoes gay discrimination bill Apple rallied against