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Arizona governor vetoes gay discrimination bill Apple rallied against - Page 2

post #41 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Sex and gender are exactly the same.

Nope. In a non-colloqual sense sex refers to biological differences, while gender refers to cultural or social ones.

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post #42 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by justp1ayin View Post
 

Do you remember those kids from elementary school that acted a bit 'gay'...? They are most likely gay now. They didn't have to go through a traumatic experience, they didn't eat a bad batch of ice cream that made them gay, they dont do it because its the new cool thing. People are born gay, people are born straight. 

 

I don't like fish... Now maybe God put fish here for a reason, so I could eat it, but I just don't like it, so if someone has a preference towards the opposite sex, why does it have to be an identity issue?


By that logic, some people are born thieves and some people are born pedophiles.  Maybe we shouldn't discriminate against them.

post #43 of 322
Shit? You have way too many lawyers in the USA. Rest of the world... we have only THE common sense and need for that.

Welcome to Europe and Finland or Spain or well Europe!!
post #44 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post
 

To love someone doesn't mean you have to agree with them.  A mom and pop cake shop in AZ shouldn't have to make wedding cakes for 2 women who want to get 'married.'  But they can still love the women as people.

 

Of course you shouldn't agree with them! The bible says its wrong and you they shouldn't have to make a wedding cake for other people who want to be happy! Now what if they get their slave to make a cake for them though? Im sure the cake shop owners have a slave as stated in being ok in Leviticus!

 

"And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves."

post #45 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post
 


By that logic, some people are born thieves and some people are born pedophiles.  Maybe we shouldn't discriminate against them.

 

So you're saying that homosexuality is hurting you in some way? We don't arrest kids who play with themselves (Sorry for being graphic), and we wouldn't arrest a thief who stole money from her own purse.... We only punish these crimes because they affect a different person in a way that they don't want to be affected, or take advantage of someone.

post #46 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headrush69 View Post

Apples and oranges.

The discriminating part is not what you sell, but not selling what you sell to specific people.
This wasn't about discriminating against a person but against behavior and that is done all the time. People should be free to voluntarily enter into contracts with whomever they want.
post #47 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by justp1ayin View Post

Do you remember those kids from elementary school that acted a bit 'gay'...? They are most likely gay now. They didn't have to go through a traumatic experience, they didn't eat a bad batch of ice cream that made them gay, they dont do it because its the new cool thing. People are born gay, people are born straight. 

I don't like fish... Now maybe God put fish here for a reason, so I could eat it, but I just don't like it, so if someone has a preference towards the opposite sex, why does it have to be an identity issue?

The rebuttal I once heard to that claim that people are born gay is, "You think babies come are born wanting a [penis] in their [butt]? WTF is wrong with people?

As a teenager someone told me that you chose to be gay. I asked him if he choose to be straight. He quickly said "of course not!" and yet he still was assured that anyone who is gay must have chosen it. I can't even being to understand the depths of such ignorance and fear. Seriously, WTF is wrong with people?


PS: It's funny that in TV shows and movies that if an actor plays a doctor, a pilot, a terrorist, serial killer, whatever we never once consider if they are really those things but as soon as they play a gay character we assume they are gay. I am guilty of doing this. It's funny, if a gay actor plays a straight one, like Neil Patrick Harris on How I Met Your Mother,, we aren't likely thinking, "He must really be straight if he's playing a straight guy."
Edited by SolipsismX - 2/27/14 at 10:22am

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post #48 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by justp1ayin View Post
 

 

Of course you shouldn't agree with them! The bible says its wrong and you they shouldn't have to make a wedding cake for other people who want to be happy! Now what if they get their slave to make a cake for them though? Im sure the cake shop owners have a slave as stated in being ok in Leviticus!

 

"And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves."


That's absolutely true.  If you are a Jew in Palestine in B.C. years. 

post #49 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by justp1ayin View Post
 

 

So you're saying that homosexuality is hurting you in some way? We don't arrest kids who play with themselves (Sorry for being graphic), and we wouldn't arrest a thief who stole money from her own purse.... We only punish these crimes because they affect a different person in a way that they don't want to be affected, or take advantage of someone.


You didn't see the 'by that logic' part, apparently.  The 'born that way' thing.

 

If they are born that way, it must be right and good.

 

 

It actually does hurt us all.  Righteousness exalts a nation.

post #50 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Being gay is not against the law. Those four things are none of Rogifan's business unless they are doing it his house without his permission. If you are concerned about those issues, call 911.
But if i own a business and would prefer not to sell a cake to a gay couple that should be my right. If they don't like it they can get a cake from someone else who will happily make one for them.
post #51 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post
 


That's absolutely true.  If you are a Jew in Palestine in B.C. years. 

 

And your point is true as well. If you're an american living in the US a decade ago. Problem is we are all comfortable with gay being abnormal. We used to be comfortable with slavery and we used that bible verse to feel like good Christians. How you don't see the link here is beyond me.

 

Lets hold a group of people down because what they are just isn't normal.  Sure they are humans, and not everyone is cruel to blacks, but hell no they aren't buying cakes from the same shops I use!!

post #52 of 322
Vetoing the bill means the Governor supports discrimination against the right of religious people to be free to practice their faith.
post #53 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


But if i own a business and would prefer not to sell a cake to a gay couple that should be my right. If they don't like it they can get a cake from someone else who will happily make one for them.

and really, why would they want to buy a cake from made by someone who doesn't like them because they are gay?

post #54 of 322

I feel sorry for the moderators that have to clean up this thread.  Is there a way to just stop allowing ALL posts a specific thread?

 

 This thread is gonna blow up and going to upset both sides of the argument.    Please all, stop posting.  We are just gonna upset each other.  This going to get too emotion too fast, IMHO.  Be civil. 

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post #55 of 322

Really tired of all the gay issues ....

post #56 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post
 


You didn't see the 'by that logic' part, apparently.  The 'born that way' thing.

 

If they are born that way, it must be right and good.

 

 

It actually does hurt us all.  Righteousness exalts a nation.

I saw the 'logic' part it just had nothing to do with what I'm saying. You can't just group a bunch of 'they were born that way' scenarios and make them all the same. Pedophiles and Thieves are born that way just like Blind people and gays!

 

My point was, out of the 'born that way' group. Which hurt you? If gay marriage is legalized, does that mean that now you HAVE to marry a man? Or that your kids will marry the same sex? I never understood why people felt the need to decide how other people live. Is it because 'America was founded in Christianity'? (Which btw tell that to George Washington who had his own bible). 

post #57 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by justp1ayin View Post
 

 

And your point is true as well. If you're an american living in the US a decade ago. Problem is we are all comfortable with gay being abnormal. We used to be comfortable with slavery and we used that bible verse to feel like good Christians. How you don't see the link here is beyond me.

 

Lets hold a group of people down because what they are just isn't normal.  Sure they are humans, and not everyone is cruel to blacks, but hell no they aren't buying cakes from the same shops I use!!


Oh, you're absolutely right.  It's call progressive revelation.  God started with the Hebrews, who came out of Egypt, out of a multi-god system, and showed them the singular god "I AM."  God actually let polygamy happen.  He let slavery happen (which was more like the maid in a household.....they were well treated and were part of the family, not like the slavery in the American colonies.)  God didn't fix everything all at once.  And when God himself stepped into his creation as Jesus -- the fulfillment of all scripture -- we entered into a new chapter in God's progressive revelation.

 

Moses had a black wife, in addition to his Hebrew wife Miriam (look it up!)

 

But no where is the male/female line blurred -- past, present, or future.  Homosexuality is and has always been against God's design.

post #58 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by locker 8755 View Post
 

Really tired of all the gay issues ....

Then why are you are following this thread?

post #59 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post

We need laws that simply state that no state law or regulation could be construed as requiring any one party to enter into a contract with any other party.

 

Agreed.  Would a photographer or wedding cake baker be forced to take on KKK members, anti-abortion protesters, or Tea Party activists if they didn't want to?  Freedom allows people to make unpopular (and even rude and stupid) decisions.

 

Let's say this bill had been signed into law.  And some restaurant chain said "we refuse to serve gay people."  A) That would be about as effective as saying "we refuse to serve people carrying concealed guns" or "we refuse to serve jews."  B) There would be a major backlash against that chain and they would either lose a lot of potential customers or back down.  In other words, it would be no big deal in the long run.  And we wouldn't be sacrificing freedom for political correctness.

post #60 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post


By that logic, some people are born thieves and some people are born pedophiles.  Maybe we shouldn't discriminate against them.

I suppose one could be born with the tendency to be a thief. There is definitely data to support that psychological differences begin in utero but not manifest until later on in life. This could mean your child might be have the genetic and /or chemical makeup to be a serial killer or pedophile just as much as he might the born with the makeup of being able to count and remember like Rain Man.

The problem is attributing natural variations in nature as something of a choice. If you don't think that one can have the physical makeup of one sex and the brain chemistry typically associated with the opposite sex then you need you explain why your god would create a hermaphrodite, or one with two penises, or two vaginas, or no sex organs at all.

Homosexually isn't the norm but it's certainly natural.
Edited by SolipsismX - 2/26/14 at 9:37pm

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post #61 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

and really, why would they want to buy a cake from made by someone who doesn't like them because they are gay?
Look at all the national attention it got. Wherever gays can cry discrimination! they will. For me personally, if I don't agree with a business practice I take my business elsewhere. I'm sure there are plenty of bakeries in Arizona that will happily bake a cake for a gay wedding.
post #62 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post
 

I feel sorry for the moderators that have to clean up this thread.  Is there a way to just stop allowing ALL posts a specific thread?

 

 This thread is gonna blow up and going to upset both sides of the argument.    Please all, stop posting.  We are just gonna upset each other.  This going to get too emotion too fast, IMHO.  Be civil. 

 

You are right and on that note I'm out of here. No one is going to change anyones mind through AppleInsider forums.

post #63 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post
 

and really, why would they want to buy a cake from made by someone who doesn't like them because they are gay?

 

Exactly.  There are plenty of other bakers would be delighted to have the business.

post #64 of 322
I created an account to ask a question more than make a comment.

How is this Apple or even tech news?

I don't care about Apple's political positions any more than those of the Apple Insider staff. Regardless of whether I agree with the veto of this bill or do (which in this case I do).

Apple Insider staff I did not follow your site for political commentary if I wanted that I'd go to my news source of choice. Please in the future stick with what you are good at and why I follow you... Apple and tech news. Getting in to religion or politics will serve only to offend you readers and you just got involved in both and a lose-lose debate regardless of which side "wins" by covering this you will offend someone.

A loyal and concerned reader.
post #65 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by justp1ayin View Post
 

I saw the 'logic' part it just had nothing to do with what I'm saying. You can't just group a bunch of 'they were born that way' scenarios and make them all the same. Pedophiles and Thieves are born that way just like Blind people and gays!

 

My point was, out of the 'born that way' group. Which hurt you? If gay marriage is legalized, does that mean that now you HAVE to marry a man? Or that your kids will marry the same sex? I never understood why people felt the need to decide how other people live. Is it because 'America was founded in Christianity'? (Which btw tell that to George Washington who had his own bible). 


The argument was that they were born that way.  You aren't tracking, I can see.

 

 

When righteousness degrades, and our humanistic values walk away from our creator's values, we all suffer as a community.

post #66 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post
 

Curious as to why would GLB want to go to an establishment that doesn't want them there?

Yeah, they probably made an issue about it for political reasons. The store owner probably could have been more tactful as well and perhaps explain that it is nothing personal but has strong reservations about being involved and wish them well or even refer them to another cake shop but probably the issue became a stand off and that is why it escalated.

 

These types of situations need to be resolved between both parties in a rational and honest way. It is just common civility to be cordial and understanding and not adversarial. People are different. Get used to it.

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post #67 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post
 

 

Exactly.  There are plenty of other bakers would be delighted to have the business.


Just be careful about the creme-filled pastries.... ;)

post #68 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post

Agreed.  Would a photographer or wedding cake baker be forced to take on KKK members, anti-abortion protesters, or Tea Party activists if they didn't want to?  Freedom allows people to make unpopular (and even rude and stupid) decisions.

Let's say this bill had been signed into law.  And some restaurant chain said "we refuse to serve gay people."  A) That would be about as effective as saying "we refuse to serve people carrying concealed guns" or "we refuse to serve jews."  B) There would be a major backlash against that chain and they would either lose a lot of potential customers or back down.  In other words, it would be no big deal in the long run.  And we wouldn't be sacrificing freedom for political correctness.
Exactly. And in this case it isn't about a person but a behavior/activity. And if refusing to photograph gay weddings is a stupid decision that photographer will find out in short order as people take their business elsewhere.
post #69 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yeah, they probably made an issue about it for political reasons. The store owner probably could have been more tactful as well and perhaps explain that it is nothing personal but has strong reservations about being involved and wish them well or even refer them to another cake shop but probably the issue became a stand off and that is why it escalated.

These types of situations need to be resolved between both parties in a rational and honest way. It is just common civility to be cordial and understanding and not adversarial. People are different. Get used to it.
That's my issue with this. Let free people figure this out amongst themselves. If I was a photographer who did weddings my personal beliefs wouldn't allow me to photograph a gay wedding but I certainly wouldn't try and stop another photographer from doing so.
post #70 of 322

At least two scientific studies have demonstrated that men who have extremely intolerant views of homosexuality (hint: a few are here) tend to have larger erections (as measured by penile plethysmography) than other heterosexual men when viewing films of gay sex acts who are not overtly homophobic. This explains a lot. It makes sense that men who are not exactly sure or comfortable with being a heterosexual would lash out at gay people due to their own insecurity. When shown gay porn, 80% of homophobes had an erection compared to 34% of non-homophobic males professing to be heterosexual. 

Is Homophobia Associated With Homosexual Arousal?
Henry E. Adams, Lester W. Wright, Jr., and Bethany A. Lohr University of Georgia.
http://my.psychologytoday.com/files/u47/Henry_et_al.pdf

Apparently homophobia also takes around 2 to 5 years off your life in another study.
http://newsok.com/study-homophobia-takes-years-off-of-your-life/article/3935208

 

The slippery slope arguments that mention bestiality, incest, polygamy etc.. are the same tired old arguments used in Loving V. Virginia against miscegenation. Amazing how bigots just adapt with the times and their victims may change but their hate remains in tact. No one is pushing an agenda or asking for special rights. This is about equality and dignity that has been denied to certain Americans and until gay marriage is legal in all 50 states it will remain an important topic. Two consenting adults that wish to marry should have that right in 2014. 

post #71 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post
 It is just common civility to be cordial and understanding and not adversarial. People are different. Get used to it.

You mean sit down and discuss issues instead of calling someone out?

Hah!

It won't happen because some people have an agenda (which has nothing to do with sorting out the issue). (This is not necessarily a comment on this specific case)

post #72 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post
 


The argument was that they were born that way.  You aren't tracking, I can see.

 

 

When righteousness degrades, and our humanistic values walk away from our creator's values, we all suffer as a community.

 

On a last note to just you, I am a Christian, I go to church and believe in the bible and in God. Maybe I'm wrong because of my thinking, but I am friends with homosexuals who have no reason to lie to me and tell me they wish they could be straight cause it would have been a lot easier for them. Believe what you want, that the sun rotates around the earth, because the bible says it, but I chose to believe that God makes no mistakes and people born the way they are is not something they should be punished for. Scientist were persecuted when they said the Earth revolves around the sun, so no one is expected to believe that scientist are right when they say you are born homosexual and not 'turned'. A hundred years from now this will seem silly, as segregation was, and there will be a new civil issue that people will be arguing about. 

post #73 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by CustomTB View Post

Even some of the republicans that voted for it were saying it was bad and asking her to veto it.

Choose two:
1. Having your cake
2. Eating it

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post #74 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


Ok well then I think vegetarian restaurants should be forced to serve meat because not doing so discriminates against consumers who prefer meat. And eating mets is perfectly legal in the United States. And I think CVS should have to reverse its policy of not selling cigarettes in its stores because that is discriminating against smokers, many of whom I'm sure shopped at CVS for other items as well. Last time I checked, smoking cigarettes is perfectly legal in the United States.

This is not even close to analogous. A business offers a service or product, and others based on that service or product decide to use the business or not. Your example involves forcing a business to offer certain products and has nothing to do with a business selecting customers.

 

Further, it is already legal for a business in Arizona to elect not to serve a person who is gay for no reason at all. No religious grounds needed. The point of this needless legislation is merely to make a government backed proclamation that such discrimination is OK. It is akin to rubbing something in. Some places in the US actually have anti-gay discrimination laws. A state wide clarification in those states might make sense, but since it is already perfectly legal to discriminate, this was just a mean spirted attempt at making gay people feel bad. 

post #75 of 322
The fact that a bill like this even got that far is shameful.

The person that wrote the bill should be barred from every business to get a taste of his own medicine.
post #76 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post
 

But what if our creator actually made us male and female for a reason?  And marriage, too.

Why, did you talk to him/her/it?  You seem to have some inside information that none of us are privy to.  Lucky you then, 'cause I've looked everywhere, every nook and cranny and the only thing I could find that is anything that can be remotely described as my creator are my biological parents.    

post #77 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post
 

 

Sex and gender are exactly the same.

 

Sex is biological (male or female), gender is the way in which people identify their sex (masculine/feminine). In some cultures, particularly in Oceania, there are three genders. So no, they are not the same thing.

post #78 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

The fact that a bill like this even got that far is shameful.

The person that wrote the bill should be barred from every business to get a taste of his own medicine.

Now that would be discriminating against someone because of their stupidity.  And we frown on that to.

post #79 of 322

In Japan it is very common to see "Japanese Only Signs" With "No Gaijin Allowed" (Gaijin are foreigners) I also saw similar signs in Korea and China. This law reminded me of that.  Exclusionary practices based on physical characteristics or sexuality seems so 20th century now. But at the same time the fact that this law even made it to the governor's desk is scary. 

post #80 of 322
You are all missing the problem here..... The law / Government is telling us what to do and what not to do

THEY ARE TAKING AWAY OUR INDIVIDUAL CHOICE AWAY!!!

Our greatest gift to us!!!! I love the way the devil works....

I think if a owner want me to not be allowed in their business it is their right!!!!

Let me vote with my dollars by buying products at another establishment

It's my choice not yours!!
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