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Apple reportedly pressing labels for exclusive content as digital music sales dip - Page 2

post #41 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Yeah, I’m sure¡

 

Stealing music because you don’t have the money to buy it… IS.

 

I actually don't really care either way about piracy, in theory it is wrong but in practice it doesn't seem to impact profits and has been used to push draconian nonsense from the likes of Sony.

 

My point was though that if the market isn't offering what consumers want to buy, then that is not the fault of the consumers. I can't stand most 'popular' music and most of what I listen to seems to be unsigned bands posting their own material online these days. If labels spent more time getting these bands onboard, then I would purchase more.

post #42 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Yeah, I’m sure¡

Stealing music because you don’t have the money to buy it… IS.

I don't think stealing it is the only other option. Personally I do an All-I-Can-Eat All-Access Music subscription. I don't see $1 or more a song to be an attractive way of feeding my music fix, particularly when there's really not all that much music I wish to "own" ....

which in the strictest sense you really don't anyway if you're buying from iTunes or Amazon or Google Music. Even worse there's been reported instances of purchased iTunes and Amazon content pulled from their stores making what should have been a re-download of your legally purchased media impossible.
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post #43 of 96
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post

My point was though that if the market isn't offering what consumers want to buy, then that is not the fault of the consumers.


Of course not.

 

Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post
I don't think stealing it is the only other option.

 

Nor I. Just about the only option that gets content creators any amount of money, however, is buying songs.

 
Even worse there's been reported instances of purchased iTunes and Amazon content pulled from their stores making what should have been a re-download of your legally purchased media impossible.

 

That’s why you don’t trust the cloud. Ever. Local copies always. Period. Until the psychosis is removed and this never happens again.

Originally Posted by Marvin

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Originally Posted by Marvin

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post #44 of 96

Exclusive content is definitely the only way Apple will attract users.

 

  It needs to fix the user experience of finding and getting music.  My two daughters used to be very regular users (wife somewhat less) of getting their music there.  All three abandoned it due to the cluttered interface and generally cluttered experience once they realized there were other places they could do what they wanted with less effort.

 

Me?  I'm just tired of having to download and delete again those three live Rolling Stones songs over and over again every time I go to another device.

post #45 of 96
You tube is making a much bigger difference than a lot of people think. My wife and daughter used to get me to buy them a lot of music that I'd otherwise never look into (different tastes), but they don't ask very much at all anymore because almost all of it is on Youtube for free. I know plenty of people who use Youtube as their primary audio source for their living room audio systems too. I was taken aback when I saw it, think the audio quality would be really bad. In a normal room, with people and other ambient sounds, it's more than good enough as background music during a party and such.
post #46 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post


Also I laughed quite hard at 'get a job'. As if not buying enough music is the consumer's fault instead of a bad market.

It could be that the demographics are against the music industry. A good chunk of the population are baby boomers and have all the music they ever wanted.
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post #47 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post


It could be that the demographics are against the music industry. A good chunk of the population are baby boomers and have all the music they ever wanted.

 

Agreed, there are also subscription based services and it's now much easier to produce music off-label. There's a whole number of reasons that the music industry is facing significant pressure.

post #48 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post

Exclusive content is a mistake. People will simply turn to piracy.

I don't follow your logic. I get that there are low barriers to piracy, but that is irrelevant. Apple built a successful online music business to compete with piracy which already existed since the days of Napster. It's just as easy to pirate music now as it was in the 1990s. Why would exclusive platform content drive people towards piracy? Here's why I think you are wrong: iTunes' success was predicated on eliminating barriers to buying music legally. It assumes (correctly) that there is a market of people who want to buy (pay for) digital music. There's also a segment of the population that won't pay for music--they're not part of the market because they will not exchange money for music. How is offering exclusive content to those who will pay for their music, going to turn them into people who will not pay? People who think of themselves as honest don't change their values just because you reward their honesty with exclusive content.

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post #49 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post


Why would exclusive platform content drive people towards piracy? Here's why I think you are wrong: iTunes' success was predicated on eliminating barriers to buying music legally. It assumes (correctly) that there is a market for people who want to buy (pay for) digital music. There's also a segment of the population that won't pay for music--they're not part of the market because they will not exchange money for music.

I'm not sure why you think this logic works. iTunes' success indeed was based on eliminating barriers, but by making content exclusive then that introduces a fresh barrier for anyone who would not use that service. For example, I wouldn't buy the latest Sunn album from an Apple service that wouldn't work on my phone. I doubt I'd end up pirating it but many people would.

 

Quote:
How is offering exclusive content to those who will pay for their music, going to turn them into people who will not pay? People who think of themselves as honest don't change their values just because you reward their honesty with exclusive content.

I've only met few pirates who consider it particularly dishonest, and I'm not suggesting that iTunes users would suddenly turn into pirates. I'm suggesting that say a heavy Amazon user who does not have a Windows PC is not likely to buy one just to use iTunes.

post #50 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post

I'm not sure why you think this logic works. iTunes' success indeed was based on eliminating barriers, but by making content exclusive then that introduces a fresh barrier for anyone who would not use that service. For example, I wouldn't buy the latest Sunn album from an Apple service that wouldn't work on my phone. I doubt I'd end up pirating it but many people would.

I've only met few pirates who consider it particularly dishonest, and I'm not suggesting that iTunes users would suddenly turn into pirates. I'm suggesting that say a heavy Amazon user who does not have a Windows PC is not likely to buy one just to use iTunes.

There has always been exclusive items/content if you buy it at one place. Target does this with some CDs/DVDs ; GameStop does it with games w DLC. Hell, Amazon has exclusive shit too.
post #51 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


There has always been exclusive items/content if you buy it at one place. Target does this with some CDs/DVDs ; GameStop does it with games w DLC. Hell, Amazon has exclusive shit too.

 

Sure, and look how hated that is almost universally. If you can pirate it, people do.

post #52 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 

 

Sure, and look how hated that is almost universally. If you can pirate it, people do.

 

But then nothing anyone does matters.  I don't see how piracy becomes more of the equation here.  People who don't pay for their music are completely oblivious to such things as exclusive content or not.

post #53 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post
 

 

But then nothing anyone does matters.  I don't see how piracy becomes more of the equation here.  People who don't pay for their music are completely oblivious to such things as exclusive content or not.


In my experience most pirates are pirates because they can't get what they want for a reasonable price, not because they are fundamentally opposed to paying. Adding more barriers in to that just results in more people refusing to pay for it. I guess we'll have to look at the statistics if this happens, but I know that ebook publishers had similar fears.

post #54 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post


In my experience most pirates are pirates because they can't get what they want for a reasonable price, not because they are fundamentally opposed to paying.

Borsht! I buy a shit-ton of used music from Amazon for pennies. People who pirate anymore are just asshats. In addition, many CD have only one or two great songs. If I buy those two songs from iTunes for a buck or so each, I've essentially got the meat of a CD for under three bucks. How much more reasonably priced can it get???
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post #55 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post

People who pirate anymore are just asshats.

What if they pirate BBC shows they can't get in a timely manner in the US. Like today's Top Gear episode?

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post #56 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post


Borsht! I buy a shit-ton of used music from Amazon for pennies. People who pirate anymore are just asshats. In addition, many CD have only one or two great songs. If I buy those two songs from iTunes for a buck or so each, I've essentially got the meat of a CD for under three bucks. How much more reasonably priced can it get???

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, that wasn't the case only a few years ago though, and we're talking about making these songs unavailable from Amazon for example for a few months. That is what I think would drive piracy.

post #57 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


What if they pirate BBC shows they can't get in a timely manner in the US. Like today's Top Gear episode?

 

Thanks for reminding me! For what it's worth pirating BBC shows that are shown via BBC America does actually hurt the BBC, as they sell the licenses internationally. Still I really don't consider it a big deal as I doubt it will actually affect deals.

post #58 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post

Thanks for reminding me! For what it's worth pirating BBC shows that are shown via BBC America does actually hurt the BBC, as they sell the licenses internationally. Still I really don't consider it a big deal as I doubt it will actually affect deals.

I know Top Gear eventually aires on BBC America although I'm not sure when. Doctor Who aires the same day as it does in the UK and Downton Abbey hits PBS months later, but as far as I know there are zero QI and Bad Education episodes airing in the US.

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post #59 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I know Top Gear eventually aires on BBC America although I'm not sure when. Doctor Who aires the same day as it does in the UK and Downton Abbey hits PBS months later, but as far as I know there are zero QI and Bad Education episodes airing in the US.

 

Well hey, from my perspective then go for it. I really don't think you'd be hurting anyone and I paid for the programs to be made so I wish I got a say in it :D

post #60 of 96
I use deezer, the european spotify equivalent. Why would I buy iTunes content that I don't even own after buying it, when I can pay 9,99%u20AC per month to be able to listen to everything, whenever I want?
post #61 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post

Well hey, from my perspective then go for it. I really don't think you'd be hurting anyone and I paid for the programs to be made so I wish I got a say in it 1biggrin.gif

Addendum: I do pay for cable that includes BBC America.

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post #62 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 


In my experience most pirates are pirates because they can't get what they want for a reasonable price, not because they are fundamentally opposed to paying. Adding more barriers in to that just results in more people refusing to pay for it. I guess we'll have to look at the statistics if this happens, but I know that ebook publishers had similar fears.

 

   Completely not the case in the many, many discussions I've had while working within the audio industry since digital pirating began, with people on both sides of the coin.  Generally, and across the board, content pirates take content for free because A) they can; B) they can without getting punished;  and  C) because they now feel they are entitled to it if it's available anywhere to pirate from.   It has zero to do with the idea that they would have bought it except that the price wasn't reasonable.  Utter fantasy.  People are either pirates or they're not, and it has nothing to do with budgets, only with a sense of entitlement.  If you dropped the price of every pirate-able thing by 50% no one who does it would stop.

post #63 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 

I'm not sure why you think this logic works. iTunes' success indeed was based on eliminating barriers, but by making content exclusive then that introduces a fresh barrier for anyone who would not use that service. For example, I wouldn't buy the latest Sunn album from an Apple service that wouldn't work on my phone. I doubt I'd end up pirating it but many people would.

 

Exclusive content doesn't prevent you from buying content from iTunes, so it cannot be, by definition, a "fresh barrier" to buying into Apple's content delivery service. It doesn't prevent anyone who would not use that service from using it.

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post #64 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 


In my experience most pirates are pirates because they can't get what they want for a reasonable price, not because they are fundamentally opposed to paying. Adding more barriers in to that just results in more people refusing to pay for it. I guess we'll have to look at the statistics if this happens, but I know that ebook publishers had similar fears.

Pirates are thieves, plain and simple. There is comprehensive accessibility to music now, hugely more than was the case before iTunes. Not only that, but the music is much cheaper, too. I find your defense 

of pirates utterly despicable.

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post #65 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post
 

Pirates are thieves, plain and simple. There is comprehensive accessibility to music now, hugely more than was the case before iTunes. Not only that, but the music is much cheaper, too. I find your defense 

of pirates utterly despicable.


What defence of pirates? Why do you feel the need to slander me so.

post #66 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post
 

 

Exclusive content doesn't prevent you from buying content from iTunes, so it cannot be, by definition, a "fresh barrier" to buying into Apple's content delivery service. It doesn't prevent anyone who would not use that service from using it.

 

Imagine if labels released on Google's music exclusively for 6 months, it would therefore prevent you buying content from iTunes. That is what I am talking about, I didn't think it would need this much elucidation.

post #67 of 96

Apropos of nothing, I wish there were a lighter weight iTunes player-only app for the desktop. iTunes is verging on bloatware. 

post #68 of 96
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post
Exclusive content is definitely the only way Apple will attract users.

 

Nope.

 

Originally Posted by unknwntrr View Post
Why would I buy iTunes content that I don't even own after buying it, when I can pay 9,99%u20AC per month to be able to listen to everything, whenever I want?

 

Because with iTunes you actually own the content and aren’t forced to have a connection to the Internet to enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Marvin

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Originally Posted by Marvin

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post #69 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 


What defence of pirates? Why do you feel the need to slander me so.

 

'In my experience most pirates are pirates because they can't get what they want for a reasonable price, not because they are fundamentally opposed to paying.'

 

​That defence of pirates. There is as much excuse for people to pirate music now as there is for them to steal cash from the handbags of defenceless old ladies. 

 

​So yes, I couldn't have a lower opinion of your view on pirating.

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post #70 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post
 

 

'In my experience most pirates are pirates because they can't get what they want for a reasonable price, not because they are fundamentally opposed to paying.'

 

​That defence of pirates. There is as much excuse for people to pirate music now as there is for them to steal cash from the handbags of defenceless old ladies. 

 

​So yes, I couldn't have a lower opinion of your view on pirating.


How is that defending pirates? I never said anything about excuses, valid or not. This is simply the logic I've seen friends of mine use. My view on pirating is that it's basically a non issue and mostly hurts small independent developers. That's why I try and spend money directly with small indie devs or bands.

 

Honestly, I have no idea where you got the idea I'm defending anyone.

post #71 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 


How is that defending pirates? I never said anything about excuses, valid or not. This is simply the logic I've seen friends of mine use. My view on pirating is that it's basically a non issue and mostly hurts small independent developers. That's why I try and spend money directly with small indie devs or bands.

 

Honestly, I have no idea where you got the idea I'm defending anyone.

You're trying to make it sound as though people who pirate have a reasonable excuse for doing so; that's how you're defending pirates. By saying you think it's a non-issue is also trivialising the crime, which is also defending it.

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post #72 of 96
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post

'In my experience most pirates are pirates because they can't get what they want for a reasonable price, not because they are fundamentally opposed to paying.'

 

Sounds less like a defense and more like an explanation.

 

Their behavior is still wholly unjustified, but his is only explanatory.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #73 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post
 

Exclusive content is definitely the only way Apple will attract users.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Nope.

 

 

 

Yep.  

post #74 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post
 

You're trying to make it sound as though people who pirate have a reasonable excuse for doing so; that's how you're defending pirates. By saying you think it's a non-issue is also trivialising the crime, which is also defending it.


If what I say sounds like a reasonable excuse to you then that's entirely your business. If I am not even allowed to express an opinion of disinterest without being accused of defending hypothetical people then I think I'll just avoid discussing this. It's the easiest solution.

post #75 of 96
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post

Yep.  

 

Great argument. Never been true in Apple’s history, but great.

Originally Posted by Marvin

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Originally Posted by Marvin

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post #76 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post


In my experience most pirates are pirates because they can't get what they want for a reasonable price, not because they are fundamentally opposed to paying.

Absolutely. Many studies have shown that the people who pirate the most also buy the most content. They buy what they can get, and download what they can't.
post #77 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Great argument. Never been true in Apple’s history, but great.

 

I guess the Beyonce iTunes exclusive album, which was iTunes' fastest selling album ever and is the reason they're making overtures for exclusives with other labels (and the reason for this headline) isn't what you would call  "in Apple's history", so I don't know what to tell you.  Maybe you don't consider 3 months ago and headlines in all the trades "history".  Most people would.

post #78 of 96
Originally Posted by jlandd View Post

I don't know what to tell you.


How about giving an example of how exclusive content is the only way Apple can attract customers, given that’s what you actually claimed, instead?

 

I guess start with proving how “exclusive content” got them customers of all of their hardware and software products.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

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post #79 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post
 

I'm not sure why you think this logic works. iTunes' success indeed was based on eliminating barriers, but by making content exclusive then that introduces a fresh barrier for anyone who would not use that service. For example, I wouldn't buy the latest Sunn album from an Apple service that wouldn't work on my phone. I doubt I'd end up pirating it but many people would.

 

I've only met few pirates who consider it particularly dishonest, and I'm not suggesting that iTunes users would suddenly turn into pirates. I'm suggesting that say a heavy Amazon user who does not have a Windows PC is not likely to buy one just to use iTunes.

 

Catch me up here...why wouldn't the Sunn album (or any album for that matter), purchased from iTunes not work on your phone?  Virtually every phone and music player out there can play AAC files now.  And there's no DRM on the songs.  The only thing exclusive about it is that iTunes was the only place you could get it the first week of release.

post #80 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheInternet View Post

Imagine if labels released on Google's music exclusively for 6 months, it would therefore prevent you buying content from iTunes. That is what I am talking about, I didn't think it would need this much elucidation.

That does not prove your argument because its an appeal to emotion. Your argument has been illogical from the start and remains so.

But let's entertain your hypothetical scenario to see where it goes wrong. If Google Play had content exclusives, then I would have to make a choice: buy from them or do without it. If I hated Google Play as much as you hate iTunes, then that makes the choice easy; there's no conundrum. Because I consider myself honest, I wouldn't pirate the content. The people who pirate use excuses like "it costs too much" or "I hate Apple exclusives" as reasons to feel justified. All the pirates that I know use those justifications because no one wants to admit (to themselves) that they do unethical things. It's a two-wrongs-make-a-right philosophy that lets them feel good about themselves while they steal. And I see right through it. Do you?

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