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Inkwell on Mac OS X proves existance of Apple PDA - Page 2

post #41 of 78
I'm not in anyway suggesting that Apple wouldn't release a PDA-like product. But, I don't think that Jobs would have given it away with the Inkwell demo. A handheld extension of your mac seems like the only possible step left to fulfilling his digital hub, for now. But just because of there is Inkwell, doesn't mean that this is what they're doing.
post #42 of 78
Well Palm OS 5 is now shipping, a clear month before MacWorld. It supposely adds some heft to the traditionally bare bones Palm experience. Since I have no experience with the Newton, I'd be interested in knowing how OS5 compares with the Newton and whether it's a viable option for the "upcoming Apple PDA."

(No inside info here, just wishful thinking...)
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post #43 of 78
Thread Starter 
All of these years later, Palm is just FINALLY gaining compatibility with the ARM chips. I wonder what took them so long.
post #44 of 78
I wonder whether someone will hack Palm OS 5 to run on the Newton's ARM processor. Or maybe vice versa, hack the Newton OS to run on the ARM-equipped Palm, Handspring and Sony hardware destined to ship this fall.

Escher

[ 06-10-2002: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>
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post #45 of 78
The pure PDA rumor is pretty much bunk. The problem is the price point. A PDA with 802.11 wireless networking costs about $700. That's just too close to a laptop. And this is the problem that all the PDA vendors are seeing.

If you look the PDA vendors they're all moving to a cellphone/PDA combo (Handspring, RIM, Palm, etc). I was just in a meeting with the Microsoft mobility group and they say the same thing. The reason for convergence is because the cost of the device is buried within the service contract. Moreover, the cellphone ownership exceeds PC ownership while PDA ownership is hardly anything. An internal Palm study showed that people carry their PDAs for about one year after that they just got left at home or the office. What the mobility people have discovered is that the killer app of a mobile device is voice communication.
So where does that leave us. Ok, look at Jaguar. What's new?
  • Integrated AOL Instant Messenger
  • Contact Manager
  • Improved Mail Client (also Web mail UI)

Now, go look at the feature set for the <a href="http://www.danger.com/hiptop_demo/load_movies.html" target="_blank">Danger Hiptop</a>

What's in the Hiptop. Well, AOL IM, e-mail app, contact manager, and ability to send photos (possible iphoto integration?). It sure looks like Apple is updating the OS to support this device (or something like it)

The Hiptop costs only $200 plus you get unlimited wireless data service for $25 a month. The company, Danger, sells a back end service to the cellular carriers where most of processing for the device is done server side, not client side. That makes it possible to reduce the data sent back and forth between the device, plus it doesn't require a very powerful processor (that's how they keep the price low).

If Apple announces a new lifestyle device I'm going to guess it's a phone and they're either going to buy Danger outright or they'll announce a major strategic partnership.

That's my 2 cents.

[ 06-11-2002: Message edited by: pjn23 ]</p>
post #46 of 78
Thanks for this great summary analysis of the PDA and mobile phone markets, pjn23.

[quote]Originally posted by pjn23:
<strong>An internal Palm study showed that people carry their PDAs for about one year after that they just got left at home or the office</strong><hr></blockquote>

How true their findings were. My Palm accompanied me for a year, and then got left in the dust. Now, two or three years after abandoning my Palm, which I used only for contacts and scheduling, I am thinking about replacing it with a smaller cell phone that I will again bring along.

[quote]<strong>If Apple announces a new lifestyle device I'm going to guess it's a phone</strong><hr></blockquote>

Only problem with the phone idea is that there are a bazillion competing mobile phone networks and standards, at least in the US. It's one thing for Handspring to develop multiple versions of the Treo to deal with various networks. Handspring has nothing else to do. Apple, on the other hand, had better things to do than deal with the multitude of competing mobile phone standards.

Escher

[ 06-11-2002: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>
"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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post #47 of 78
Thread Starter 
[quote]The pure PDA rumor is pretty much bunk. The problem is the price point. A PDA with 802.11 wireless networking costs about $700. That's just too close to a laptop. And this is the problem that all the PDA vendors are seeing. <hr></blockquote>

Yes, but remember that the Newtons sold for MORE than that originally and despite early problems, they were becoming fairly successful in the end. Also remember what the eMate was selling for when it was released. Yes, it was laptop like, but it still had some of the finer points of the Newton and there was an order for 3,000,000 of them placed by Texas alone! Too bad Newton, Inc. was spun back into Apple or we would have seen some very interesting handheld computers on the market now.

Also, while the price of the PDA might hit between $500 - $700 (especially with what they are asking for with the iPod), you have to realize that with the right features, there is a market for this type of device! Realistically, people can't bring their laptops everywhere, but a device like this, you could. For people that need to be on the go all of the time, while still connected, this device would be terrific.

Argue with me all you like, but the Palms are severely lacking right now compared with Pocket PCs, and even devices like the iPaq could still be outshined in many ways by a new Apple device.
post #48 of 78
With the economy the way it is going, I would say the market for such a device in the $500 - $700 price range is shrinking weekly.
post #49 of 78
Wow, a Palm OS 5 device coming this fall will be hitting the <a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-935158.html" target="_blank">$100.00 price point.</a>

I know its hard to contemplate, but maybe Apple should steer clear of this train wreck after all.
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post #50 of 78
[quote]Originally posted by Frank777:
<strong>Wow, a Palm OS 5 device coming this fall will be hitting the <a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-935158.html" target="_blank">$100.00 price point.</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

"Palm hopes to improve its fortunes by introducing three new handhelds this fall, including one designed to sell for $100"

Reread the title ....... did it mention OS 5 anywhere in the sentence ?
post #51 of 78
[quote]Originally posted by ihxo:
<strong>Reread the title ....... did it mention OS 5 anywhere in the sentence ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The article is quite clear: "Palm has also said that one [out of three] of its new products for the fall will be a handheld running Palm OS 5 that is capable of making phone calls." This means that the other two, including the $100 model, will still run Palm OS 4.x.

I'm waiting for the day when we'll get a $100 PDA with color screen and unlimited data and voice calls. I fear I'll have to dream on...

Escher
"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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post #52 of 78
Well Palm's done some stupid things before, but I refuse to believe that right when they're promoting OS 5 as the new standard, they'd release two BRAND NEW products for the Christmas season that don't run it.

I'm not saying the $100.00 Palm will be colour or use any of OS 5's major enhancements. But just as Apple standardizes on one motherboard for various models to cut costs, I would imagine Palm would do the same.
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post #53 of 78
Funny, I read that as an emphasis on the voice capability. In other words, three new devices running OS 5 comma one of which "is capable of making phone calls."

Screed

Mmm-okay, I reread a fourth time. He did say "a handheld running Palm OS 5 that is capable of making phone calls."

I still don't think that implies the other two will run 4.x. But then again this is Palm.

For the record, I want:
-Color
-integrated wireless (but not necessarily voice)
-Mac compatibility (obviously)
-a processor faster than the Dragonball

The Treo 90 comes the closest short of the processor.

[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: sCreeD ]</p>
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post #54 of 78
[quote]Originally posted by sCreeD:
<strong>Funny, I read that as an emphasis on the voice capability. In other words, three new devices running OS 5 comma one of which "is capable of making phone calls."</strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess the journalists at C|Net should learn to use proper punctuation. (Or get better info from Palm. )

[quote]<strong>The Treo 90 comes the closest short of the processor.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Screed: Note that the Treo 90 does not have any wireless functionality. However, it is a nice handheld and would be my choice if I was buying one now. (My Palm IIIxe will continue to serve until there are new models that have useful added funtionality.)

Escher
"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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post #55 of 78
[quote]Originally posted by Escher:
<strong>Screed: Note that the Treo 90 does not have any wireless functionality. However, it is a nice handheld and would be my choice if I was buying one now.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Gah, you're right! You reminded me what's worse about it: the SD slot is not compatible with SDIO therefore the new Bluetooth cards won't work!

Screed ...hmm, must find more batteries for my IIIx
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post #56 of 78
[quote]Originally posted by sCreeD:
<strong>Gah, you're right! You reminded me what's worse about it: the SD slot is not compatible with SDIO therefore the new Bluetooth cards won't work!</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'd forgotten about that serious shortcoming as well. An other one is that you can't upgrade the OS on any Handsprings because the ROM isn't flashable. Hopefully, many PDAs will come with Bluetooth built-in at no (or very little) added cost. In any case, I still think the Treo 90 looks very good.

Escher
"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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post #57 of 78
Handspring did say that they COULD release a software update that would make the Treo 90 compatible with SDIO. The question is whether or not they will and if so, when?

You can read my review of the Treo 90 at Amazon.com:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-reviews/-/A2ZEA6SNZ2DIF8/1/ref=cm_rev_auth/102-1844515-5516146" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-reviews/-/A2ZEA6SNZ2DIF8/1/ref=cm_rev_auth/102-1844515-5516146</a>

Mike
post #58 of 78
Granted. But the real issue is given that Bluetooth technology can now fit on an SD card, why isn't the tech being integrated into the devices? Why treat it as an afterthought, when there are some killer apps just waiting for it? (IM chat, games, web/email, games -- repeated for emphasis)

Are there FCC issues of integrated vs. add-ons?

Then, of course, something could be flawed or onerous with the tech. (Why did D-link (or Apple) kill the USB adapter?)

Screed ...wants to be Palm CEO for a fortnight!

[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: sCreeD ]</p>
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post #59 of 78
Has anyone seen this?

Separately, Apple is seeking production of personal digital assistants (PDAs) and some computer peripherals, such as its wireless communications access points, namely airports, in Taiwan.

From AsiaBizTech
entitled: Taiwan Enjoys Rapidly Growing Orders from Apple Computer

<a href="http://www.nikkeibp.asiabiztech.com/wcs/leaf?CID=onair/asabt/moren/192188" target="_blank">http://www.nikkeibp.asiabiztech.com/wcs/leaf?CID=onair/asabt/moren/192188</a>

Could this be true?
post #60 of 78
I bouioght a Treo 90 last night and its going back to best buy today! The thing is about the nicest Palm styled PDA Ive ever seen, but there are HUGE incompatibility issues with the mac, and not just os X. So im now hoping for an Apple solution at MWNY. Id be willing to spend as much as 500, provided it was not the average pda functionality. Although i think that Newton-esque handwrititng recognition alone would be worth that price for the rest of it being basic palm functionality.

heres to hoping for an apple pda!
post #61 of 78
Fran? Anything?

Red light - Nope, never?
Yellow light - Maybe, MWSF or beyond?
Green light - Yes, July surprise?

Anyone, anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Screed

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: sCreeD ]</p>
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post #62 of 78
[quote]Originally posted by sCreeD:
<strong>Funny, I read that as an emphasis on the voice capability. In other words, three new devices running OS 5 comma one of which "is capable of making phone calls."

Screed

Mmm-okay, I reread a fourth time. He did say "a handheld running Palm OS 5 that is capable of making phone calls."

I still don't think that implies the other two will run 4.x. But then again this is Palm.

For the record, I want:
-Color
-integrated wireless (but not necessarily voice)
-Mac compatibility (obviously)
-a processor faster than the Dragonball

The Treo 90 comes the closest short of the processor.

[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: sCreeD ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, the Treo 90 misses on all three counts. Here's an email I got from Handspring regarding current and future Mac support:

[quote]
Dear Sammy Banawan,


Thank you for your email.

I understand you cannot hotsync your Treo 90 with mac OS X.

Treo 90 is not compatible with Mac OS X and we do not plan to release any
updated software to make it compatible. We apologize for any inconvenience.

Note: All Handspring handhelds come with 30 days money back guarantee and
since you will not be able to hotsync your Treo with your Mac, you can
return it for a full refund.

Please quote the case number listed in the subject line of this email, this
will assist us in tracking your contact. If you have any more difficulties
or inquiries please feel free to email us or contact the Handspring
Technical Support line at 716-871-6448 if you had your Visor less than 90
days or 1-888-345-5150 after the 90 days period - $19.95 charge per
incident. We are open from 9 AM to 9 PM EST, Monday to Friday. One of our
agents will be happy to walk you through a solution. If you would like the
latest updates or latest news concerning our products please sign up for the
FREE Electronic Newsletter. Please visit us at <a href="http://www.handspring.com/support" target="_blank">www.handspring.com/support</a>
for any FAQ's.

Regards,
Vitaly
Handspring Technical Support
================================================== ====================
What is your timeline for Mac OS X support for my Treo 90? Do you have a
firm date for the release of an OS X native palm desktop? Currently I'm
having to resort to virtual pc as my computer does not and will not have OS
9 on it. Thanks.


<hr></blockquote>

My Treo was returned last night. Handspring is no longer getting my money. Now I'm back to my newt, waiting for something from Apple...
post #63 of 78
Gads! It's like a flashback to '97-'98 when Apple was "mostly dead".

Also, so much for one common OS (Palm). Shouldn't hotsyncing be hotsyncing?!

Screed
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post #64 of 78
And there it is.

The final piece in the puzzle, nail in the coffin, the straw that breaks the camel's back...

Let's review:

1. Bluetooth support in the OS. No obvious reason.
2. Inkwell included in Jaguar. No obvious reason.
3. Completely overhauled AddressBook in Jaguar. No obvious reason.
4. Handspring, engaged in a hard fight with Pocket PCs and other Palm licencees decides not to bother supporting Mac users - a platform a non-MS affiliate would naturally cultivate - No obvious reason.

Actually, it is obvious, Jeff and Donna know something we don't.

Forget the G5, the PDA is coming....finally!

:o :o :o
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post #65 of 78
Maybe Apple have become really pissed by all the rumours flying around and release a Apple branded Palm m105 named G5.
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post #66 of 78
[quote] All is NOT going according to plan.

Sales of the bluetooth adapter have stopped. NOT a good sign.

<hr></blockquote>
So, Fran, I think Apple has the d-link bluetooth adapter back. Are things better?
post #67 of 78
The iPod now has a 'solid state' wheel which is just a trackpad. Increase the size of it a bit and you now have a location to enter written text.

Basically all I'm saying is that the hardware is now there to create a new PDA even if Apple never intends to do it.
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post #68 of 78
Thread Starter 
Things are looking very interesting allen. Very interesting.

First, look at the technology demo of Inkwell during the keynote. Oh wait, you can't because Jobs skipped over it. Why would Jobs skip a technology like Inkwell that is guaranteed to be in the new version of the OS? The reason is because there will be another opportunity to show it off.

Also, look at the demo of iSync and how they linked with the Palm. Wait, Jobs didn't show that either. Kind of funny considering that more people have Palms than phones, right?

I did get to use Inkwell at Macworld- they had one iMac with a tablet hooked up. The technology is Newton like, but not the same. For example, to delete, you draw a straight line from right to left. It only deletes one character at a time. They say the Newton 'scribble' might be an option in the future, but can't comment. I commented on how cool it would be to see the writing not only on the screen, but also on the pad I was writing on. The person said, "Yeah, it is cool." Quickly afterwards, the person nervously said, "I mean it would be cool." I then had to 'move on so others got a chance'.

All the pieces are now in place.
post #69 of 78
Fran, interesting observation from MWNY. Any guess on timeframe? Also, are you hinting at a Kormac type v2 product?
post #70 of 78
&lt;b&gt;Only problem with the phone idea is that there are a bazillion competing mobile phone networks and standards, at least in the US. It's one thing for Handspring to develop multiple versions of the Treo to deal with various networks. Handspring has nothing else to do. Apple, on the other hand, had better things to do than deal with the multitude of competing mobile phone standards.&lt;/b&gt;

Which is why I think Apple may leverage it's partnerships with Sony-Ericsson and NTT DoCoMo and simply provide OS-level functionality and interoperability atop their hardware - until a true dominant standard emerges.

Apple may just "pick a side" like they did with the MPEG-4 standard and live or die based on the decision. I don't think that would be a very responsible decision in a down market, but if they wanted a good bet, GPRS is as good as any.

I will also be watching closely to see if anyone can stream to one of Japan's FOMA phones with the Quicktime Streaming Server and MPEG-4. If that's the case, an arguement can be made that Apple doesn't NEED a device win as long as its software adheres to a standard.

All that said, I would still love to have a bitchin' new Newton-like PDA/phone/Bluetooth/WiFi terminal to make all my friends droool. ;-)

[ 07-19-2002: Message edited by: Singen ]</p>
post #71 of 78
As I understand it Apple went with the standart this time. The data in the Adress Book follow some kind of standart AFAIKR and I bet the same goes with the calender. All the phone producers have to do is to write something that translate the data to the type used in the phone and thats is not very hard on newer phones.

I really don´t understand what Singular had to do in that equation. Are they the only ones to offer GPRS in the states? I didn't see anything in that demo that had to do with GPRS (which is a clever way of using existing GSM technology for package (instead of swich) data communication.) GPRS is roughly to ADSL what GSM is to phone line (and G3 is to fixed data line) and really hasn´t anything to do with the tech showed.

What it comes down to is this: Can the device recieve data from an Apple computer and can it interpret the data. Which kind of mobile standard used is of lesser importents (with the possible exception of CID and SMS to and from the mac). None of the Adress book and calender functions used the 68i primary function (which isn´t to make polyfonic ring tones or play snake but...surprise to many...to make phone calls. What I'm trying to say is this is like discussing if ADSL or cable modems are better for preserving the formatting of a email.

I have to disagree with Fran on this one. The show didn´t bring us closer to a Newton2. They are pushing the iPod as a information device hardcore. Jobs almost said that its good to have information with you but you really don´t need to edit it on the road. I think we somewhere down the line will see a Newton2 but not because of this show...
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post #72 of 78
Thread Starter 
[quote]I have to disagree with Fran on this one. The show didn´t bring us closer to a Newton2. They are pushing the iPod as a information device hardcore. Jobs almost said that its good to have information with you but you really don´t need to edit it on the road. I think we somewhere down the line will see a Newton2 but not because of this show...<hr></blockquote>

Anders, also look at the uses of Rendezvous in this case.

If you're in a class, have a document sent to each handheld from the teacher's iMac. If you're in an office meeting, have all of the information in your hand and the ability to beam video presentations via QT 6.

Get friends iChat identities, as well as business contact information. The possibilities are great for such a device.
post #73 of 78
Just in case you didn't hear it, Steve at the analyst's meeting was asked:

Question: "What are your views of the PDA space?"

Jobs said: "I think the PDA is going to go away"

[laughter]

Question: "And replaced by what?"

"Replaced by the new generation of cell phones."

He goes on to say that people don't need a device to enter in information - they enter it on the computer, and then carry it with them.

Later:

"We decided, you know, three years ago, that the trajectory of the handheld was going to be subsumed by the cell phone."

He says that he's asked all the time to do a PDA, but he made the right decision not to do it.
post #74 of 78
These threads get a lot funnier if every time you see PDA you think Public Display of Affection (like the public service messages have on TV). Taking that into account "Inkwell on Mac OS X proves the existence of Apple's Public Display of Effection". Well duh! Apple is nice and effectionate of all of us. We ARE the children of light after all....
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post #75 of 78
Well now that iCan iSync with iEverything, does anyone know if the Treo will officially be made compatible with Jaguar?

I'm guessing the above-mentioned "no support" comments were made to hide the fact that iSync was in development.

(P.S. Can somebody please fix imacmike's link so the thread can be read properly ?)
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post #76 of 78
[quote]Originally posted by Frank777:
<strong>Well now that iCan iSync with iEverything, does anyone know if the Treo will officially be made compatible with Jaguar?

I'm guessing the above-mentioned "no support" comments were made to hide the fact that iSync was in development.

(P.S. Can somebody please fix imacmike's link so the thread can be read properly ?)</strong><hr></blockquote>

Interesting take on the email I got. I didn't even think of it in that way. Can the Treo's do bluetooth? If so, I don't see why they wouldn't work. I'll keep my eye on this one and see what happens. Although, the more I've used my Newt, the more I've come to depend on it. I'd be completely and utterly clueless without it. I'm not sure I could make the transition at this point even if I wanted to (I just started a residency and ALL my information is in there.)
post #77 of 78
Well now I'm confused. Handspring's now releasing a new version of <a href="http://pdabuzz.com" target="_blank">Palm Desktop 4 for OS X</a>. Guess they're not overly thrilled with the iCal/iSync idea.

And on the subject of confusion, does ANYBODY think much of Palm's new PDA naming scheme: Zire (low-end) and Tungsten (high-end)? What were they thinking? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
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post #78 of 78
[quote]Originally posted by Frank777:
<strong>Well now I'm confused. Handspring's now releasing a new version of <a href="http://pdabuzz.com" target="_blank">Palm Desktop 4 for OS X</a>. Guess they're not overly thrilled with the iCal/iSync idea.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why shouldn't third party developers have their own software that works with their own hardware?

It's nice to have alternatives, and hardware developers that relies on Apple to make their drivers/software just sit back and blame Apple everytime something is not working.
JLL

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