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Class action suit claims Apple Store POS system discriminates against visually impaired - Page 2

post #41 of 90
This suit is frivolous, plain and simple.
post #42 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Good catch. I'd missed that in the first read. So they don't want any money, they just want it fixed. Doesn't sound like anything to complain about then.

Lawyers can collect fees from a company in violation of this type of law even if the only remedy provided is an injunction. Money damages are not required.

post #43 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


I agree. Apple will come up with a sensible fix. A shame people didn't just ask instead of immediately going the lawsuit route. Kind of undermines the motivation here.


Problem is that politely asking will inevitably relegate this issue to the backburner.  And if Apple upgraded its stores for better accessibility on its own initiative, then those actions potentially run afoul of activist shareholders/muckrakers like NCPPR who would claim that Apple is not focusing enough on ROI.  Citing ADA compliance and filing suit pretty much ensures that this will get high level attention, and the threat of legal action takes this issue off the table for someone like NCPPR that might want to try to make political hay out of it at Apple's expense.

post #44 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
 

 

If this is the case, then why is the lawsuit not seeking damages and only seeking remedies?

 

The lawsuit isn't seeking damages but the legal fees need to paid by Apple. It's a lawsuit in an instance that feedback to retail would suffice. As Apple has shown, they go beyond what a lot of other companies do with regards to those with disabilities, and I would think that constructive feedback would accomplish what the plaintiffs are asking.

post #45 of 90

"Apple discriminates against the visually impaired".   Good luck with that angle.

If that one does not work for you, you may want to try "Apple discriminates against gays" next.

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post #46 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thick-McRunfast View Post

You dont use pins for debit at an Apple store. They all get ran as credit and signed for.

And the sig isn't even 100% of the time. I bought like $300 in stuff the other day and my card didn't ask for a sig

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(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #47 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by city View Post

If doesn't seem to me that a lawsuit is necessary to convince Apple to address such an issue. This is the generate legal fees. The Apple Santa Monica store had a blind employee (with dog) helping customers. I have seen Stevie Wonder shopping in an Apple store.

I love that guy. He's freaking smart, great sense of humor. Century City is a little closer to our office but I'll go to Santa Monica just to say hi to him

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post #48 of 90
Apple just needs to keep one old-school keypad per store. Use it for THE blind guy who comes in once in a while.
post #49 of 90
Were they sure they were at an Apple? Why not just order online?

Then they'd have to sue themselves because they can't see their monitor.
post #50 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Interesting tidbit: Go to Apple's website and play any video. You will notice the "CC" button in the controller to turn on closed caption. Then head over to Google's YouTube channel.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Google

None of the videos that I tried there had "CC" available.

Google doesn't produce very many of those Youtube videos, so if the owner didn't add CC then it's not available for the most part . To Google's credit tho thay are tryign to add closed captioning to several videos by using their speech recognition tech if the original audio is clear enough for it. . Apple produces all the videos on their site don't they? The two are not really comparable. Kudos to Apple tho if they're ensuring every video they produce is accessible to the hearing impaired. . . or those with a sleeping infant nearby. 1biggrin.gif

Why should I assume that Google didn't produce. sponsor or facilitate the making of the videos on their official YouTube channel? Furthermore, the way CC works is that it reads the timecode and matches it up with an xml file so nothing is preventing Google from adding that if they cared to.

 

As far as automatic CC from audio is concerned, that could turn out very badly. Why not do it the right way?

 

And lastly to paraphrase the ADA criteria on CC, if the entity producing the video gets any federal funding then it is required. And not just CC, but also audio descriptions of the action on the screen is also required for the visually impaired. That last part is sometimes a little ridiculous. For example we were producing some training videos for medical professionals on the topic of digital 3D imaging where clearly a blind person would not be able to enter that field as it requires excellent vision, yet, because it was being offered at a university that received federal funding we had to include the visually impaired audio track.

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post #51 of 90
I wonder if the plaintiffs brought this up with the mgr or even Apple customer service first.
post #52 of 90
My best friend is legally blind. She can still see but not much. During our visit to the apple store she bought a few things at the apple store with 2 transactions. She had to sign and did a very good job. The signing space is almost the size of the screen and she didn't even bother to take out her magnifying glass (?) and see where to sign. We also go to target and as long as she knows where the center button is she can put in her pin as fast as I can. She also manages to text,call,read email and use Facebook with the built in disability options. She can even type a text faster than me. I mentioned this article to her and she thought it was ridiculous lawsuit and said she finds touch screens are very neat and not difficult to master.
post #53 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Why should I assume that Google didn't produce. sponsor or facilitate the making of the videos on their official YouTube channel? Furthermore, the way CC works is that it reads the timecode and matches it up with an xml file so nothing is preventing Google from adding that if they cared to.
I just realized I misunderstood your first post. You were referencing Google's own videos while I was talking about videos in general and Google's efforts to CC those that video owners had not. My bad.

You're absolutely correct that not all the videos Google posts are CC's, which they mention. . Most that I glanced at had CC available and even in languages besides English. But in any case you may be correct. Apple might absolutely be making a more serious effort than Google to assure that all (or nearly all) can be enjoyed by the hearing impaired. Thanks for the mention and apologies for the misread.
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post #54 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigybank View Post

This suit is frivolous, plain and simple.

because?

post #55 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by freqsound View Post

All drive thru windows discriminate against the blind. Ice cream stores discriminate against the lactose intolerant. Wheaties discriminates against those with a gluten allergy. Don't get me started on the Big 3 (Jif, Skippy, & Peter Pan) and how they simply refuse to help those with nut allergies.

I am convinced that Apple did nothing wrong here.

post #56 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post
You were referencing Google's own videos while I was talking about videos in general and Google's efforts to CC those that video owners had not. My bad.

I've seen the option for Google to try to automatically generate CC in YouTube and I tried it once as an experiment. It was absolutely awful transcoding, totally unusable. I thought at first I could clean it up but it was so bad that was impossible so I started from scratch. But to their credit they do offer some decent interface tools to accomplish that.

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post #57 of 90
isn't that like bringing a class action suit against Vincent Van Gogh or Steven Speilburg for being too "visual-centric"?
post #58 of 90
I have a 4 year old nephew who was born blind. He is infatuated with my iPhone and Siri. (Especially 'Talking Carl) we went to the Apple Store to look at iPads and I was amazed at the level of personal support they were offering to him.
post #59 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
 

 

If this is the case, then why is the lawsuit not seeking damages and only seeking remedies?

He is also seeking his fees. By not seeking damages, he's hoping Apple will slip him a few tens of thousands to make him go away.

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post #60 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post

I wonder if the plaintiffs brought this up with the mgr or even Apple customer service first.

There were NO plaintiffs. Just a bloodsucking lawyer who filed a class-action lawsuit on behalf of blind people. He is not asking damages and is only asking to be paid his fees. He's willing to be bought off too, if Apple were to do so.

"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #61 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky View Post
 

There were NO plaintiffs. 

It's not past tense.

Plaintiff is David New.

post #62 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Just put a screen protector on which has a raised dot over the 5.

Then it will be just like any other POS keypad.

In Australia we've been using PIN's for twenty or more years, it's about time the US caught up.

I think the lawsuit is valid and Apple should do what you just said, for the betterment of mankind.
post #63 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


Good catch. I'd missed that in the first read. So they don't want any money, they just want it fixed. Doesn't sound like anything to complain about then.

"reasonable" is in the eye of the beholder!

post #64 of 90

I know this was already pointed out but just to reiterate ALL Apple Stores have AT LEAST TWO checkout pads which have physical keys to enter pins. No need for anyone who's blind to give their pin to an employee. Not sure what other "remedies" are being sought. The keypads are similar/the same as used at any other retailer.

 

I don't know why Americans hate seeing successful companies. Especially ones trying to make this world better not worse. Go sue an oil company or something.  

post #65 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by gfdsa View Post


I think the lawsuit is valid and Apple should do what you just said, for the betterment of mankind.

 

The lawsuit doesn't need to exist to provide feedback. Apple of all companies goes out of its way to support those with disabilities. The lawyer is trying to extort Apple into a quick payoff to shut him up. If he was truly standing up for blind people, he would reach out in a civilized way. There is no evidence that he even engaged Apple to improve their system prior to filing the lawsuit.

post #66 of 90
I'm not questioning the existence of the issue for some Apple Store customers ... but is this really the best and most reasonable course of action for finding a solution to the problem? Really?

The only people who benefit from these class action lawsuits are the damn lawyers.

If you really want to fix the problem, contact Apple directly.

Just another inane abuse of the legal system.

What a waste.
post #67 of 90

Delete - Double post.

post #68 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
 

 

Try getting through an average day with a blindfold on, and tell us how that goes.

 

Try using your brain for a day and tell us how it goes.

 

Losing any one of your five senses can make life difficult, but demanding that others accommodate you at every turn just makes you a d-bag. Apple has no legal obligation to make its products usable by every single human being on the planet.

 

What next? Are you going to sue music labels for discriminating against the deaf?

post #69 of 90
I work at an Apple store, and our POS systems are swipe and sign. In my years there, I've NEVER asked anyone for a pin or any personal information, and as mentioned earlier, all debit cards are just swiped as credit cards. Stupid lawsuit (as usual)
post #70 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by freqsound View Post

All drive thru windows discriminate against the blind. Ice cream stores discriminate against the lactose intolerant. Wheaties discriminates against those with a gluten allergy. Don't get me started on the Big 3 (Jif, Skippy, & Peter Pan) and how they simply refuse to help those with nut allergies.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
 

Try getting through an average day with a blindfold on, and tell us how that goes.

 

I don't think that freqsound was suggesting that people who are visually impaired have it easy or that they deserve to suffer etc, but rather there is a significant difference between discrimination - which is an active choice to deliberately make trouble for someone based on some trait and the simple fact that many people have some difficulty living in a westernized world awash in technology and that alone does not automatically require that everyone and everything should cater to every possible challenge faced by the members of that society. 

 

I have not read the complaint - though I wonder, even if no one is asking for any sort of settlement on behave of the class members, is the lawyer or law firm still expecting a payout? or is it pro-bono?

 

Personally I would have thought that using the various feedback mechanisms available, or a letter writing campaign, or even getting someone like Stevie Wonder to have a chat with Tim Cook, or any of a number of avenues could have been pursued before a class action lawsuit would even need to be considered. 

 

I didn't make you blind, or deaf, or paraplegic, etc, so while I think it is great that communities do things like put in wheel chair ramps at intersections and have braille on the buttons as the ATM - I don't think that it is reasonable or cost effective or even possible to make every single thing everywhere compatible with every possible disability or disorder that exists in a population. 

 

How many times do we hear "disabled" people asking to be called "handi-capable" or be treated just like everyone else, but then some small percentage among them expects special privilege. Reminds me of the Carlos Mencia story about the kid in the wheelchair at an amusement park who is being escorted to the front of the line and when Carlos called BS on it the kid was thankful that someone treated him as an equal rather than focusing on his disability - of course they proceeded to use his disability to get both of them to the front of the lines for the rest of the day - but it still makes a point. 

post #71 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by spock1234 View Post

What next? Are you going to sue music labels for discriminating against the deaf?

I put this one right up there with the guy who sued Apple for getting addicted to porn.

 

Weird Al Yankovic had a great song about these type of people called "I'll Sue Ya"

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post #72 of 90

At first I wanted to say something snarky, like 'so when are paraplegics going to file a lawsuit, or those who are comatose?'. But then, reading @Woochifer's comments, I think I see what the lawsuit is trying to do and am confident Apple will do something positive.

 

I remember playing around with the vibration alerts when they were first made customizable in iOS and thought how helpful it would be for the visually impaired.

 

I always wished for tactile feedback on my iPad and iPhone, mainly because my fingertips hurt when I type on the touchscreen for extended periods of time. But for the visually impaired it could make a world of difference.

 

But again, I am confident Apple will do something about it. Just because there are no patents we know of, doesn't mean they aren't working on something.

 

Cheers again to @Woochifer. Nice to see someone posting something well worth reading!

post #73 of 90

How can you call it discrimination if they DO provide a way to service their blind customers? My post was meant to point out the absurdity of the lawsuit by juxtaposing other seemingly thoughtless consequences of purveyor vs. customer by using a slight bit of sarcasm.

In my world I have programmed software specifically for blind users to access advanced functions on synthesizers, so don't assume I'm not aware of the difficulties of navigating anything without sight. Everything can't work for everybody in every conceivable way possible, but Apple accommodates their customers in a variety of ways (online, POS sales, in store personnel, voice recognition, etc.) to include as many people as possible in the most effective modes available and practical that they can. I see further solutions here like fingerprint authorization for purchases that can be advanced in the future if accounts are created prior to the shopping experience, but the fact that all solutions are not immediately available to everyone does not denote discrimination.

post #74 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I would doubt it because of the very high chance it could backfire. Apple can show they are above board but much better than their competitors.

You would think so, but don't underestimate the stupidity of Samsung.
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post #75 of 90
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post
It seems ironic on the surface since the display doesn't offer any tactical feedback.

 

I know, but still… :lol:

 

I also like ’tactical feedback’; there’ll be an iPhone mount for the M-16 soon, giving realtime data to soldiers.

 

Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post

Try getting through an average day with a blindfold on, and tell us how that goes.

 

Seems like you’re already wearing one. And earplugs.

post #76 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by BestKeptSecret View Post
 

At first I wanted to say something snarky, like 'so when are paraplegics going to file a lawsuit, or those who are comatose?'. But then, reading @Woochifer's comments, I think I see what the lawsuit is trying to do and am confident Apple will do something positive.

 

I remember playing around with the vibration alerts when they were first made customizable in iOS and thought how helpful it would be for the visually impaired.

 

I always wished for tactile feedback on my iPad and iPhone, mainly because my fingertips hurt when I type on the touchscreen for extended periods of time. But for the visually impaired it could make a world of difference.

 

But again, I am confident Apple will do something about it. Just because there are no patents we know of, doesn't mean they aren't working on something.

 

Cheers again to @Woochifer. Nice to see someone posting something well worth reading!

As a paraplegic I have discovered over the last 15 years that the most common reason for an "obstacle" or "barrier" that I have encountered is just a simple lack of understanding about placement of objects i.e. displays, tables etc.  Talking to a business, preferably the owner is the best way to resolve most problems. The majority of persons I have encountered want to do right and enjoy my business and subsequent positive word of mouth to others. On occasion shear ignorance i.e. people trying to sit me in a booth instead of a table while saying "can't you just stand up and hop over a little" occurs. In these instances a little rebuke of common sense usually does the trick. 

 

Some businesses are just really old and we have to jump through a few hoops to get in or get situated, but this is rarely the case and usually, with few exceptions the staff is more than happy to help. The ADA is a godsend, but the spirit of the law is most important.  I don't believe that lawsuits should be off the table, because in reality that is the only way to educate or modify people's behavior that are resistant or ignorant. However, I believe in the vast majority of cases it is not necessary. As a professional Apple products, connectivity and eco-system make my life and work easier, I feel as a company they have done and will do the right thing in a timely manner as needed. I am not the "disabled' spokesperson, just my two cents on the issue.

post #77 of 90

I am not sure what the motives are behind this, why single out Apple, ( we know instant and free press) but no company today has anything in place to deal with the situation called out in this law suite. Ever company in the America has the same issue if a visually impaired person wants to pay with credit or Debt card. The real issue is in the fact the CC companies required signatures over a $25 purchase they should sue them, it is their rule.

 

However, this lawsuit falls into what is call of ADA drive by lawsuits. Someone who claims to have a handicap which is protect under the ADA, figuratively drives by a business establishment which they believe do not have reasonable accommodations for people with a handicap and they sue them and claim they were discriminated against while visiting their business. It could be as simple as they do not have a ramp into the business. Most companies settle these suite immediate since it is too costly to fight and most time you never win. There are whole group of people which are so call handicaps living off the money they get from these drive by lawsuits.

 

I do not care they are no suing for money in this case, they are picking on Apple to get visibility in hope that apple will come up with something that every other company has to do as well.

 

You know this could be good business for apple if they patent the solution, then all company with POS will have to use their solution since they will be required to do so under the ADA requirements.


Edited by Maestro64 - 3/6/14 at 11:44am
post #78 of 90
post #79 of 90

No changes will be made.

Apple:  Shop online instead or pay online and pick up at the store.

post #80 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post
 

"Apple discriminates against the visually impaired".   Good luck with that angle.

If that one does not work for you, you may want to try "Apple discriminates against gays" next.

two words:

 

"Protected Class"

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