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Sigh... Palm OS 5 vs. Pocket PC - Page 2

post #41 of 89
Belle, have you ever considered the Psion? they have a loyal following and are very compact.

<a href="http://www.psion.com/computers/computing.htm" target="_blank">http://www.psion.com/computers/computing.htm</a>

I always liked the psion; compact, almost full-size keyboard, and did the job.
post #42 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Belle, have you ever considered the Psion? they have a loyal following and are very compact.

<a href="http://www.psion.com/computers/computing.htm" target="_blank">http://www.psion.com/computers/computing.htm</a>

I always liked the psion; compact, almost full-size keyboard, and did the job.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Are they even still selling PDA's? I thought they quit and were just working on the EPOC OS (isn't it Symbian now?). I had a revo+ for a while. Not bad but lots of problems syncing with windows. Are we noticing a trend or what?
post #43 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>The Dell certainly looks like a nice sub-notebook. My only objection, and I know I'm being fussy, is the size. I'm looking for something smaller as well as lighter, which is one reason I'm looking at palmtops.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's always a back and forth between small size and useability. The iBook is very useable, but a bit large and heavy for our needs. The Dell gets a bit closer. The Sony Picturebook would be perfect in terms of size and weight, but it might come short on useability. As we discussed years ago in this forum, the Picturebook's keyboard has an impractical layout. Unless Sony has made significant changes to the keyboard, that would probably still be a deal-killer for me.

[quote]<strong>I think if I'm honest (and listened to my friends) I get on with my work so I can ignore my illness. If I stopped and sat and thought about things for any length of time, I'd probably fall apart.</strong><hr></blockquote>

We only have a limited amount of energy. Thus, life is all about setting priorities for extending that limited amount of energy. We're always better off putting energy into work or other productive activities than wasting energy worrying or wishing we could change things which we cannot change. I have found that plowing ahead is always better than languishing in self-pity.

[quote]<strong>I think the thread was doomed the moment I posted it. </strong><hr></blockquote>

We just can't help but flog certain dead horses.

[quote]<strong>Thank you, THT. The wireless version is <a href="http://palm.com/products/handhelds/tungsten-w/" target="_blank">here</a>.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's just that you will have to wait until "Early 2003" to get your hands on a Tungsten W. Who the hell came up with that name anyway? Zire maybe. But Tungsten?

To me personally, SonyEricsson's T68i still looks more attractive and useful than any of these newfangled Palms. If I can't have a real keyboard, I might as well be able to put the device in my pocket and leave my Timbuk2 <a href="http://www.timbuk2.com/products/peewee.html" target="_blank">Pee Wee</a> behind.

Escher

[ 10-29-2002: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>
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Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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post #44 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Escher:
<strong>We just can't help but flog certain dead horses.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know, it's not a dead horse yet. Technology is moving fast, and I'm certain we'll have a solution soon enough. It may not be the sub-notebook we were expecting, though. One thing is for sure, I'm not holding my breath waiting for Apple to provide anything useful in this regard.
[quote]<strong>It's just that you will have to wait until "Early 2003" to get your hands on a Tungsten W. Who the hell came up with that name anyway? Zire maybe. But Tungsten?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I find it quite odd that, unless I'm mistaken, there's no Graffiti pad under that keyboard, and no "virtual" Graffiti like the Sony Clies. A Palm without Graffiti seems very odd. The keyboard looks nasty, though.
[quote]<strong>To me personally, SonyEricsson's T68i still looks more attractive and useful than any of these newfangled Palms. If I can't have a real keyboard, I might as well be able to put the device in my pocket and leave my Timbuk2 <a href="http://www.timbuk2.com/products/peewee.html" target="_blank">Pee Wee</a> behind.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I played around with the T68i, and can only see it being useful as a supplement to a notebook or PDA. It wouldn't allow me to leave either of those items at home, at least when I'm working.

I may well have to resort to that most disgusting of abhorrence, the PDA + folding keyboard combo. I know, I know. I'm selling out. Going against all my principals.

I'm working on taking the first stage along a new road, where all my data will be stored on a server, where I can access it from any device wherever it may be. Then I can just play around with any devices I can get my hands on until I find the one that suits, and won't have to keep transferring stuff between them.

It looks like it may be sensible to wait until December or January before making a decision, anyway, there are a whole bunch of new phones and PDAs due to appear over the next two or three months.

Speaking of Timbuk2, those lovely people have introduced a new bag, the <a href="http://www.timbuk2.com/products/elcentro.html" target="_blank">El Centro</a>, which is designed to carry an iBook in comfort. It's even described as "Mac-alicious".

I still look forward to the day I can just carry my Porkchop, and leave the other bags at home...
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post #45 of 89
Thread Starter 
Some news about <a href="http://www.theregus.com/content/54/26825.html" target="_blank">Palm OS 6</a>. Looks like it'll appear later next year.
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post #46 of 89
personally i think that the tungsten is where its at. It is the smallest pda available, finally has a high rez screen, built in bluetooth to connect to my t68, and finally a decent arm proccessor. I currently have a Clie NR70V(which does sync with OSX, look for missing sync), and it has extra bells over the palms such as mp3 and high rez movie playback. I DONT USE ANY OF THESE. I would like something like the treo 270, but with the size and advancements of the Tungsten. iPaq's in my humble opinion are pretty worthless. No one in their right mind would care about games on a pda. The whole market is going to be pushed aside by cell phones, even microsoft knows this. Thats why they are finishing up another OS, this time for cell phones.
An interesting thing to look at is the NX series by sony. Essentially it has OS 5 and a CF slot that may eventually be able to run microdrives. I know that the battery issue would have to be resolved, but that would be a mean combo. You would be able to load entire movies in high rez, plus a coupla hours of mp3s and pictures. It also has a 640x480 digital camera that can record continuous mp4. I believe that with the advent of arm proccessors, palms will be more appealing than ppcs because they will still have much better battery with the catch up in speed(actually it will run faster because pocket pc is bloatware in comparison to palm os).
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post #47 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Imergingenious:
<strong> No one in their right mind would care about games on a pda. The whole market is going to be pushed aside by cell phones, even microsoft knows this. Thats why they are finishing up another OS, this time for cell phones.
&lt;snip&gt; You would be able to load entire movies in high rez, plus a coupla hours of mp3s and pictures. It also has a 640x480 digital camera that can record continuous mp4. I believe that with the advent of arm proccessors, palms will be more appealing than ppcs because they will still have much better battery with the catch up in speed(actually it will run faster because pocket pc is bloatware in comparison to palm os).</strong><hr></blockquote>

First, Pocket PC 2000, 2002 and Phone Edition are all Windows CE 3.0 with different GUI and modules. Not an entirely different OS.

Second, people do care about games on their PDA. It's a huge industry. <a href="http://www.raymanpocket.com/features.html" target="_blank">http://www.raymanpocket.com/features.html</a> Available for Palm as well.

Lastly, virtually all of the multimedia capabilities you cited have been available in Pocket PC in 2000. Old news.
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post #48 of 89
But the battery life of those PDA's way back in 2000 wasn't too good, especially not when compared to palm. PocketPC is getting better though, and as Palms add more features/power/brighter screens they're getting hungrier, so the battery life of the two platforms is getting closer.

I think a PDA ought to have at least a solid week of standby time and 24 hours of continuous use. It's supposed to be ready anywhere, and it won't be if you're always looking for a plug or have a nightly docking ritual.
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post #49 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>I may well have to resort to that most disgusting of abhorrence, the PDA + folding keyboard combo.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Belle: I've been re-considering that option as well, while I send in my iBook to have the backlight problem fixed. Have you seen PalmInfocenter's review of the <a href="http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4479" target="_blank">Palm Ultra-thin Keyboard</a>? BTW, I highly recommend <a href="http://www.palminfocenter.com/" target="_blank">PalmInfocenter</a> as the best source of Palm-related news. They also have an excellent <a href="http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4490" target="_blank">Tungsten T review</a>. (Any chance that our apple_otaku and their Palm_Otaku are one and the same person?)



[quote]<strong>I'm working on taking the first stage along a new road, where all my data will be stored on a server, where I can access it from any device wherever it may be. Then I can just play around with any devices I can get my hands on until I find the one that suits, and won't have to keep transferring stuff between them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess that's where Microsoft's .NET and Apple's .Mac are supposed to lead us ultimately. For me personally, this is going to be especially important with e-mail. Right now I carry my iBook and dowload all of my POP e-mail. Without my iBook, I don't have my e-mail. I really should start taking advantage of IMAP and leave at least my recent mail on the server. That is especially true now that I have paid up for my .Mac membership and could conceivably use .Mac webmail to check on my other e-mail accounts. I guess it's a matter of sitting down for a day and configuring everything for easy use.

Also, my brother-in-law leads a team of wireless analysts for one of the major research firms. He's visiting down here next weekend and will bring some new toys. Maybe he'll have some good suggestions, even though his research and knowledge centers on network infrastructure rather than handheld hardware.

[quote]<strong>Speaking of Timbuk2, those lovely people have introduced a new bag, the <a href="http://www.timbuk2.com/products/elcentro.html" target="_blank">El Centro</a>, which is designed to carry an iBook in comfort... I still look forward to the day I can just carry my Porkchop, and leave the other bags at home...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Size-wise, I still favor my 700 cu in Pee Wee (with a Waterfield iBook sleeve) over the larger Sweet Pea (1000 cu in) and new El Centro (1300 cu in). Being able to fit our gear in the tiny Pork Chop may be a pipe dream. (For us guys, it's also too much like a girly purse. ) Of course, I'll be waiting to get a microchip implant in my earlobe even longer.

Escher
"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
Reply
"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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post #50 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>But the battery life of those PDA's way back in 2000 wasn't too good, especially not when compared to palm. PocketPC is getting better though, and as Palms add more features/power/brighter screens they're getting hungrier, so the battery life of the two platforms is getting closer.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The advances in battery technology over the last couple of years had made so much difference to this area. Just looking around at these handhelds, and especially new cell phones, things are so much better! The standby and talk time on most new cells is phenomenal compared to my old Nokia.
[quote]Originally posted by Escher:
<strong>I've been re-considering that option as well, while I send in my iBook to have the backlight problem fixed. Have you seen PalmInfocenter's review of the Palm Ultra-thin Keyboard? BTW, I highly recommend PalmInfocenter as the best source of Palm-related news.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It was a mention of that keyboard that made me consider this as an option. I think it's something I'll have to try out in a store before I go ahead, though. While I've been researching this whole thing, the three sites I've found most useful are <a href="http://www.palminfocenter.com" target="_blank">PalmInfoCenter</a>, <a href="http://www.infosync.no" target="_blank">infoSync</a>, and <a href="http://www.gizmodo.com" target="_blank">Gizmodo</a>.
[quote]<strong>I guess that's where Microsoft's .NET and Apple's .Mac are supposed to lead us ultimately. For me personally, this is going to be especially important with e-mail. Right now I carry my iBook and dowload all of my POP e-mail. Without my iBook, I don't have my e-mail. I really should start taking advantage of IMAP and leave at least my recent mail on the server. That is especially true now that I have paid up for my .Mac membership and could conceivably use .Mac webmail to check on my other e-mail accounts. I guess it's a matter of sitting down for a day and configuring everything for easy use.</strong><hr></blockquote>
At the moment, this approach is making a lot of sense to me. I'm not entirely sure I trust Apple or Microsoft to keep my data for me. Backups, for sure, but I'm not happy about live data. I think I'm a bit of a control freak in this respect. I also have a plan for a little sideline business that a little box acting as a data center would be perfect for.
[quote]<strong>Also, my brother-in-law leads a team of wireless analysts for one of the major research firms. He's visiting down here next weekend and will bring some new toys. Maybe he'll have some good suggestions, even though his research and knowledge centers on network infrastructure rather than handheld hardware.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exciting! Please report back.
[quote]<strong>Size-wise, I still favor my 700 cu in Pee Wee (with a Waterfield iBook sleeve) over the larger Sweet Pea (1000 cu in) and new El Centro (1300 cu in). Being able to fit our gear in the tiny Pork Chop may be a pipe dream. (For us guys, it's also too much like a girly purse. ) Of course, I'll be waiting to get a microchip implant in my earlobe even longer.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Pee Wee is still my favorite, but I'm glad that Timbuk2 is so Mac-friendly. And I don't think the Porkchop is particularly girly, is it? I guess it depends on the color. It's just the right size for a paperback, a notebook and pencil, a cell phone, a purse, car keys, and I could easily fit a Palm or iPaq in there, too.

[Edit: Or maybe it is <a href="http://widepipe.org/gear/000118.shtml" target="_blank">a bit girly</a>. Man purse. Ahahaha. Funny.]

[ 10-31-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
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post #51 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>But the battery life of those PDA's way back in 2000 wasn't too good, especially not when compared to palm. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Not necessarily true as you are comparing color PDAs with CF slots and such to a monochrome device. If you were to compare a PPC with say a Visor Prism (with or without a module), you will find that their battery life is comparable and both suck compared to Palm V [which is a revolutionary product, BTW, when it entered the market].

I don't have it in front of me but I believe my Casio E-125 (2000 model) has a 1100 mAh battery which is still pretty good by today's standard.
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post #52 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>At the moment, this approach is making a lot of sense to me. I'm not entirely sure I trust Apple or Microsoft to keep my data for me. Backups, for sure, but I'm not happy about live data. I think I'm a bit of a control freak in this respect. I also have a plan for a little sideline business that a little box acting as a data center would be perfect for.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's my main beef with the Danger Hiptop: Who's storing my data? Where? I'd mind less if there was also a way to sync the data to a machine of my choice, but alas.

The main reason I wouldn't worry if Apple did something similar with .Mac is that they appear to be using standards in earnest: If they use WebDAV for any similar device and point to the .Mac servers by default, it should be possible to set the server to your own choice as is possible with iCal. In fact, that would be a huge win for businesses and education customers looking to use the devices, not just geeks with their own servers and SDSL at home.

To date, not one of these little gadgets has inspired more than idle curiosity in me. I'm still waiting for someone to give me a reason to buy one.
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post #53 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>The main reason I wouldn't worry if Apple did something similar with .Mac is that they appear to be using standards in earnest: If they use WebDAV for any similar device and point to the .Mac servers by default, it should be possible to set the server to your own choice as is possible with iCal. In fact, that would be a huge win for businesses and education customers looking to use the devices, not just geeks with their own servers and SDSL at home.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, who're you calling a geek, buddy?

The reason I distrust .Mac and .NET is that I've had problems with online services a number of times, and though it's nice to have someone to blame for lost data, in the end it's just incredibly frustrating when they can't bring it back. I've lost e-mails because of .Mac (Well, it was still iTools back then), I've lost backups because my online backup service screwed up, I've lost a days worth of data from an SQL database because my ISP managed to delete my entire web space. I know all these things could go wrong on my own server, but at least I care specifically about my data and will go to the ends of the Earth to make sure it's safe.
[quote]<strong>To date, not one of these little gadgets has inspired more than idle curiosity in me. I'm still waiting for someone to give me a reason to buy one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sigh. This is my problem. I know already that I'll end up impulse-buying a Tungsten or iPaq or something similar after Christmas, use it for a few weeks while it's new and interesting and I have features to discover, then consign it to my technology graveyard.

But I feel more strongly than ever that my laptop has become my albatross. I carry it around at work. It occupies the passenger seat of my car. It sits on my desk at home. It weighs down my hand luggage on flights. It sits in my bag on the floor at bars and restaurants and calls to me once in a while to check it's safe and hasn't been stolen. And it's got a bunch of little parasitic cables and adapters it needs to survive.

Why do I carry it? Because it holds the information I need for work. I need to view the data, and I need to add data. But really these days there's no need to carry all the data around. I just need a device to view it, and add to it. Something that's not the size of a Comp. Sci. textbook and weighs as much as a newborn baby.

I think I may have a whole new set of psychological techno-issues here.
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post #54 of 89
I don't think think that MS will update its OS again until Windows CE 4.0 is released. [FYI: PPC 2000, 2002, and SmartPhone are all on Windows CE 3.0]

The new OS will be optimized for the Xscale processors unlike the current crop.
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post #55 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>Hey, who're you calling a geek, buddy?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You. You gotta problem wit' dat, lady?

[quote]<strong>The reason I distrust .Mac and .NET is that I've had problems with online services a number of times, and though it's nice to have someone to blame for lost data, in the end it's just incredibly frustrating when they can't bring it back.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's why I specified that the main reason I trusted .Mac more than others was because you could probably swap in another server. Not because of Apple's incredible reliability.

Also, Apple is more likely to allow syncing with a local Mac (via iSync, perhaps? ), and that's a make-or-break issue for me.

[quote]<strong>But I feel more strongly than ever that my laptop has become my albatross. I carry it around at work. It occupies the passenger seat of my car. It sits on my desk at home. It weighs down my hand luggage on flights. It sits in my bag on the floor at bars and restaurants and calls to me once in a while to check it's safe and hasn't been stolen. And it's got a bunch of little parasitic cables and adapters it needs to survive.

Why do I carry it? Because it holds the information I need for work. I need to view the data, and I need to add data. But really these days there's no need to carry all the data around. I just need a device to view it, and add to it. Something that's not the size of a Comp. Sci. textbook and weighs as much as a newborn baby.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's the need to add data that's the rub, isn't it? After all, an iPod is perfectly capable of browsing most data. I'm not enough of a gadget monster to spend hundreds of dollars on something I have to poke at through an obscure interface retrofitted awkwardly onto a dial pad, and the alternatives aren't there yet.
[quote]<strong>I think I may have a whole new set of psychological techno-issues here. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not going to say anything.

I do understand the desire for the Ideal PDA. I'm disorganized enough to seriously benefit from one. But there are no ideal PDAs, just a whole lot of $600 near misses.

Unfortunately for the vendors, if I'm going to spend $600, it's going to be on a solid hit. My technological graveyard fits in a milk crate (2400 baud modem, anyone? Anyone?!).
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post #56 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>You. You gotta problem wit' dat, lady?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Uh... No. Just sayin'.
[quote]<strong>It's the need to add data that's the rub, isn't it? After all, an iPod is perfectly capable of browsing most data. I'm not enough of a gadget monster to spend hundreds of dollars on something I have to poke at through an obscure interface retrofitted awkwardly onto a dial pad, and the alternatives aren't there yet.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm beginning to think that Matsu may be thinking along the right lines. (Yes! I know! It surprised me too. I never thought I'd hear myself saying such a thing! ) High quality voice recognition may just be the way for PDAs to go. Get those mathematicians working on their FFTs. You can put it on a DSP chip. I think that this could become an even more valuable technology now cell phones and PDAs are merging.

Certainly for the basic functions of a Palm device - appointments, to do lists, address book - it's really not going to be too difficult to parse the language required.
[quote]<strong>I'm not going to say anything.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd advise against it. Though it's not my first flirtation with techno-insanity. Way back in the deep mists of time, I remember spending a horrendous amount of time playing Populous on the Amiga, and having nightmares about the game. I would hear that "gooonnnggg" that indicated your enemy had created a knight long after I'd finished playing and switched off the computer. I also developed "mouse finger", a temporary RSI brought about by clicking madly to repair the damage caused by your enemy "volcanoing" you. Anyway.
[quote]<strong>I do understand the desire for the Ideal PDA. I'm disorganized enough to seriously benefit from one. But there are no ideal PDAs, just a whole lot of $600 near misses.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The thing is that in my mind, $600 is about what I'd be willing to pay at the top end. But for something that's a million times more usable than what's available today.
[quote]<strong>My technological graveyard fits in a milk crate (2400 baud modem, anyone? Anyone?!).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I do pass on most of my old hardware to friends, but there are some things that people just don't want.

I still have that Amiga and Populous somewhere, I think...

[ 10-31-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
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post #57 of 89
Belle, have you seen <a href="http://www.mobigeeks.net/e/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=744" target="_blank">these</a>? They look interesting.

[ 10-31-2002: Message edited by: torifile ]</p>
post #58 of 89
The tungsten is half the size of the iPaqs, and has a higher rez screen. I can watch movies in full 320 x 480, something that the PPCs still dont do because their screen isnt that big. Also, my note above having all those songs and movies was about the storage ability of the microdrive, not the playing of the movies themselves. Next time please pay attention when you read my posts. :o
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post #59 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:

<strong>I'm beginning to think that Matsu may be thinking along the right lines. (Yes! I know! It surprised me too. I never thought I'd hear myself saying such a thing! ) High quality voice recognition may just be the way for PDAs to go. Get those mathematicians working on their FFTs. You can put it on a DSP chip. I think that this could become an even more valuable technology now cell phones and PDAs are merging.

Certainly for the basic functions of a Palm device - appointments, to do lists, address book - it's really not going to be too difficult to parse the language required.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmmm.

The TI chip in the Tungsten is a nifty dual-core jobber with an ARM processor and a DSP stuck together - and, it seems, running at different clockspeeds(!). So there's your platform for running FFTs. According to the Palmsource article linked a little ways back in this thread, OS 6 is going to be the really interesting one, and that's due next summer/fall (next fall is going to rock!). So maybe Palm is heading in this general direction.

They've also abstracted away the HWR engine in OS 5, so that Graffiti can be replaced by a third party - or future Palm - HWR engine without any of the underlying apps noticing. Sweet.
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post #60 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>Belle, have you seen <a href="http://www.mobigeeks.net/e/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=744" target="_blank">these</a>? They look interesting.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Very interesting indeed! Thanks, torifile. I gathered from the thread that this thing runs Linux? That may require a little work on my part, but still very interesting. I followed the link through to the Samsung device, but it has one of those horrid keyboards.
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>Hmmm.

The TI chip in the Tungsten is a nifty dual-core jobber with an ARM processor and a DSP stuck together - and, it seems, running at different clockspeeds(!). So there's your platform for running FFTs. According to the Palmsource article linked a little ways back in this thread, OS 6 is going to be the really interesting one, and that's due next summer/fall (next fall is going to rock!). So maybe Palm is heading in this general direction.

They've also abstracted away the HWR engine in OS 5, so that Graffiti can be replaced by a third party - or future Palm - HWR engine without any of the underlying apps noticing. Sweet.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Also very interesting! I take it if the HWR has been completely abstracted, then it needn't just be replaced (or supplemented) by another HWR system - you could use any kind of input.

Perhaps if the PDA manufacturers won't go with voice recognition, some third party may once Palm OS 6 is available.

Oh, and Outsider, I didn't just ignore your suggestion about Psion - I'm heading over to a store this afternoon to check them out.

[ 11-01-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
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post #61 of 89
Palm OS 5 vs. Pocket PC?

Must be the battle for second in the PDA/handheld computer world.

If you're not going to get a Newton, I personally like the Danger Hiptop more than either of the other two offerings. It does help, though, if you're in their coverage area.

[ 11-01-2002: Message edited by: Fran441 ]</p>
post #62 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:
<strong>If you're not going to get a Newton [...]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I knew it was coming. I'm just surprised it took so long...
[quote]<strong>I personally like the Danger Hiptop more than either of the other two offerings. It does help, though, if you're in their coverage area.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I like the Hiptop, it's an interesting device, but it's definitely a communicator above all else.
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post #63 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:
<strong>Palm OS 5 vs. Pocket PC?

Must be the battle for second in the PDA/handheld computer world.

If you're not going to get a Newton, I personally like the Danger Hiptop more than either of the other two offerings. It does help, though, if you're in their coverage area.

[ 11-01-2002: Message edited by: Fran441 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fran, I'm afraid the e740 is an adequate replacement for the newt. :eek: I know I shouldn't say that, but it's pretty damn good. It doesn't work for some people, but it's filled a hole where my newt 2100 used to be. And it's smaller with a color screen and decent HWR. Not breath-taking or revolutionary (both of which the newt was), but good enough. :/ Too bad it's not from Apple so I don't have to use VPC to use it.
post #64 of 89
Certainly, to issue voice commands and small discrete speech notes, the technology is there, people would want a really good natural dictation system, and I'm not sure anyone can really provide one. Too many outliers in the language game for current technology (even on the desktop)like people with accents or speech impediments. I remember trying out dictation (Dragon and IBM) for accessibility testing. Better than nothing, but not that great. Too many mistakes, and you have to imput punctuation. But even if that were perfect, it's still a pain listening to yourself compose. I hated it, couldn't get anything really going, and had to revert to typing to do anything useful. It's just wierd and not like writing at all.

Still, even without natural speech dictation, an eminently usable notation device is within our grasp. That DSP could convert speech to any number of compressed music formats, like MP3. Now if the PDA had a facility to automatically organize voice notes chronologically and then to let you give them a very extensive tag with brief notes, keywords and cross references to other notes, all automatically dropped into a nice database for your perusal, I think that makes a pretty useful tool. You could drop older files to your PC and archive them, burn them to disc, what have you. Perhaps even a way to do the voice transcription after the fact, either on the PDA or on your desktop machine, where you can correct it as it goes.
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post #65 of 89
Thread Starter 
I can see that working. Although part of the appeal of a PDA is being able to compose text instantly, for most purposes, other than immediate e-mails, conversion after the fact would be fine.

On my old Visor, as I entered text I'd have to correct as I Graffiti'd, letter by letter. It was incredibly frustrating. Dictating a note, then proof-reading and correcting later would be fine. I do exactly the same thing now with my flesh and bones assistant.

Speech recognition has also come a long way in the last couple of years. I saw a demonstration of a system similar to predictive text input on a cell phone, where sounds would be matched to a dictionary, and unclear vowel sounds and stops would be guessed based upon the sound before. It seemed to work pretty well.

An interesting aside:

The name of the element tungsten is derived from the Swedish "tung sten," meaning "heavy stone."

Perhaps Apple should have thought of that for the Newton.
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post #66 of 89
Belle: Any progress on your shopping decision? If you're still pondering your options, there's a thread on MacNN with (almost) exactly the same topic as this one: <a href="http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129541" target="_blank">Palm Tungsten vs Pocket PC</a>.

I love the new iBooks. But I'd love them even more if they were half the weight!

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post #67 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Escher:
<strong>Belle: Any progress on your shopping decision? If you're still pondering your options, there's a thread on MacNN with (almost) exactly the same topic as this one: <a href="http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129541" target="_blank">Palm Tungsten vs Pocket PC</a>.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you for the link, Escher. I've not made a decision yet, but it looks like I might be able to get demo units to try out. It may eventually come down to software. I need to be able to write up stuff and post it straight into a database sitting on my server. I'm not entirely certain as yet the best way to go about doing this.
[quote]<strong>I love the new iBooks. But I'd love them even more if they were half the weight!</strong><hr></blockquote>
They are nice, as is the PowerBook update. I was kind of hoping the unruly speculation about a smaller PowerBook was true. Not all "power users" need all that screen space.
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post #68 of 89
Well, Ms Belle, I bit the proverbial bullet (because I found that I hate paper and pen more than the Palm OS) and purchased a Palm m515.

I also got Docs to Go and Pocket Quicken. Well, Ma'am, it's not as bad as I thought that it was going to be, it covers what this engineer needs. I've got spreadsheet and document exchange between Appleworks on my Rev.A ibook at home, my new Palm where ever I am, and my idiot Windows machine at work (as long as I don't try any formating gymnastics).

And I've still got 12Meg free!


Take Care.

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post #69 of 89
Thread Starter 
I'm glad at least one of us isn't so pernickety, Sir.

Did you get a good deal on the m515? Have prices come down since the Tungsten T appeared?

I think I'm going to go with the iPaq H5450 for just now. It'll be available within the next couple of weeks. I've tried Palm, and didn't like it much, so I'll give Pocket PC a go. It's got built-in Bluetooth and WiFi, as well as IrDA to talk to my ageing cell phone. (Until I decide on a new Bluetooth model.)

I've already resigned myself to the fact I'll probably either have gotten fed up with it by Christmas, or will replace it a few months later when new models appear, and Palm OS 6 emerges.
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post #70 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>I think I'm going to go with the iPaq H5450 for just now.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's got to be nice to be a platform agnostic, Belle. Sometimes I really think that my strong belief in the Mac platform holds me back. Is there a lot of choice for folding keyboards on the WinCE platform? Or do they all use different connectors?

BTW: My brother-in-law's visit last weekend was uneventful in technological terms. He had a couple of demo units, with color screens and direct web access, but nothing that you couldn't buy in a store. Only difference was that he got them for free and didn't have to bother with pay-through-the-nose data and voice plans. Since he's not a computer geek like us, he didn't know anything about synchronization options. It was great having his company nonetheless.

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"The only laptop computer that's useful is the one you have with you."
Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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Until we get a 3 lbs sub-PowerBook, the 12-inch PowerBook will do.
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post #71 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Escher:
<strong>

It's got to be nice to be a platform agnostic, Belle. Sometimes I really think that my strong belief in the Mac platform holds me back. Is there a lot of choice for folding keyboards on the WinCE platform? Or do they all use different connectors?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

They pretty much all have different connectors, but there are several infrared ones that work with most brands. The one I've been looking at is <a href="http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CT LG%5F003%5F008%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=25%2D969" target="_blank">this one</a>.

As far as platform loyalty goes... I'm as platform loyal as a person can get, but when it gets down to it, I need the tools to do the job right. Palms just don't do it for me.

[ 11-16-2002: Message edited by: torifile ]</p>
post #72 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Escher:
<strong>It's got to be nice to be a platform agnostic, Belle. Sometimes I really think that my strong belief in the Mac platform holds me back.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I feel this is somewhere Apple could really score. I hope it's sinking a small fortune into developing iSync to ensure compatibility with as many PDAs and cell phones as possible. The hassle involved with matching up PDAs, sync software, apps, along with backing up and uploading apps, is just such a huge pain in the ass.
[quote]<strong>Is there a lot of choice for folding keyboards on the WinCE platform? Or do they all use different connectors?</strong><hr></blockquote>
As torifile says, there are a few infrared keyboards that work with most PDAs. The <a href="http://www.pocketop.net/" target="_blank">Pocketop</a> looks nice. The <a href="http://www.thinkoutside.com/" target="_blank">Stowaway</a> is also available for Pocket PC, though not the XT. I'm sure it'll be available sooner rather than later, though.
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post #73 of 89
I know a couple of engineer guys (as an engineer, I'm lucky to have a social circle at all) at a pharmaceutical manufacturer here in Indianapolis. Their awesome company gave them ipaqs connected wirelessly to their intranet. They love 'em, and don't mind resetting them four times (on average) per day.

There's a lot of engineers who run around and need portable-display-connectivity away from their desks who need dependable functionality and would snap up a cool iTablet. Apple, where in the hell are you?

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post #74 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Aries 1B:
<strong>I know a couple of engineer guys (as an engineer, I'm lucky to have a social circle at all) at a pharmaceutical manufacturer here in Indianapolis. Their awesome company gave them ipaqs connected wirelessly to their intranet. They love 'em, and don't mind resetting them four times (on average) per day.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dammit, Aries 1B, I was pretty much decided on the iPaq, then you have to go and mention this.

I had to reset my Visor once. And that was when I was doing a full reset to delete data when I finally decided to give it up.
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post #75 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>
Dammit, Aries 1B, I was pretty much decided on the iPaq, then you have to go and mention this.

I had to reset my Visor once. And that was when I was doing a full reset to delete data when I finally decided to give it up. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think he was referring to a hard reset, but just a soft one. A reboot of the machine. You remember what those are, right? Way back in the OS 9 days we had to do it regularly.
post #76 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>I don't think he was referring to a hard reset, but just a soft one. A reboot of the machine. You remember what those are, right? Way back in the OS 9 days we had to do it regularly. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Heh, strange thing is that I reset my Mac just about as often as I used to have to reset it when I used OS 9: Other than the occasional horrendous IE5 rebuild your hard disk crash, the only time I had to reboot was when installing stuff, and that situation hasn't improved all that much. Damn that little arrow in Software Update.
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post #77 of 89
It really, really matters what you want to do with the device.

For me personally, I tend to use a PDA for three reasons:

1) Calendar/Agenda
2) E-Mail on the go
3) E-Books

1) There's no better PIM application than iambic's Agendus right now. Hands down: I've been using iambic ActionNames back in the times when I had a Newton. It's evolved, easy to use and has the perfect view for your appointments. So I use a Palm OS device, as iambic only does it for Palm OS devices.

2) Eudora's free Internet package has a nice webbrowser (textonly) and - more important - the perfect little E-Mail app. I only use my main account on there, but it has support for more than one account. In combination with my GRPS phone, that's just dandy.

3) E-Books. I love to read. And Sony's 320*320 resolution is just the best you'll get for reading on a small screen, as it effectively doubles the resoulution of a Palm device nicely. The new Palm devices will be 320*320, too, so this is the way to go for me. I'm using a Sony CliƩ PEG-425 (that's the 415 for the US market) right now. It's the thinnest and sexiest Palm device I've ever seen. If I would pay battery life for a colour screen, I'd have bought the PEG-675C (that's the 665 for the US market), but as all of my needs from a PDA DON'T require colour, I rather have more battery life.
post #78 of 89
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by fryke:
<strong>It's the thinnest and sexiest Palm device I've ever seen. If I would pay battery life for a colour screen, I'd have bought the PEG-675C (that's the 665 for the US market), but as all of my needs from a PDA DON'T require colour, I rather have more battery life.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It does look good. It kind of bugs me that for my purposes, a monochrome (or grayscale) display would suit just fine, and I'd prefer it for battery life, but if you want other high end options like Bluetooth and 802.11, you have to go color.

As far as ideal handhelds go, does anyone have a picture of the translator used by the communications officer in "Enterprise"? That looks just about ideal in size to me.

I tried to find a picture on the internet, but Google took me to all sorts of really scary Trek places. :eek:
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post #79 of 89
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>
I tried to find a picture on the internet, but Google took me to all sorts of really scary Trek places. :eek: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Smart answer #1: That's what you get for looking for pictures on the Internet.

Smart answer #2: Is there any other kind of Trek site?

Pick one.
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post #80 of 89
Thread Starter 
It actually impresses me, when I get over the fear. I mean the amount of knowledge accumulated about a fictional universe. Languages, technology overviews, technical drawings of spacecraft, character biographies, ... Even NASA has a Star Trek site! One of the major problems is that the people who run the websites seem to live permanently in that fictional universe, and while they know the ins and outs of hyper drives and phasers, they've got zero knowledge about HTML and basic design.

I still can't find a picture of that frickin' doohicky, though. Lots of Scott Bakula (Anyone else hope that the last ever "Enterprise" will end with Scott leaping to his next assignment?) and the Frankenstein Klingon lady, but no translators.
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