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Rev. Jesse Jackson targets Apple, Google, HP, others in tech racial diversity campaign - Page 2

post #41 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

I agree that firms should hire the best people for the job without regard to race, age, sex etc. 

However, I also think that there are real inequities in society that need to be addressed, and that in far too many cases people who say what you said (and what I agree with) pretend those inequities don't exist or are opposed to every single idea for addressing them. 

So I think that if one rejects one idea, then there is some burden on the rejector to suggest an alternative. 

The alternative I suggest is to focus on economic inequality rather than racial/gender/etc inequality, and use mildly redistributionist policies to address those inequities. By "mildly redistributionist" I mean taxing the rich at a higher marginal rate than the middle class and poor, and using that money to support things like the earned income tax credit and education and health care for the poor. In other words, I support the types of policies that the mainstream Democratic party supports, and that the Republican party is constantly trying to eliminate. 

Marxism and income redistribution are wasteful frauds. If you want to really debate their merits, start a new thread in Political Outsider.

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post #42 of 270
Yet Jesse Jackson's Rainbow coalition is predominantly black, as is the Black Caucus in Washington DC, the NAACP, etc. He preaches equality, but he can't practice it.
post #43 of 270

The simple fact that an article pointing out an obvious fact managed to draw out such blatant racism on this thread speaks volumes. 
Rule of thumb... if you start a sentence with "I'm not a racist, but..." then you're probably about to say something stupid and racist.
I think I spotted just about every race-based dog whistle so far. 

Good job techies!

post #44 of 270
East Indians, Asians and some Middle Eastern people are people of color too.

They make up most of the students in the University of California campuses. Caucasians are a minority in upper education in California.

If Rev. Jackson wants more Blacks in high tech companies, then he will need to change Black culture in America. He needs to tell Black families to emphasize education. This is currently not done. He needs to tell Black men to parent their children. This is currently not done. He needs to tell Blacks to look the mirror and do what is right for their children.

No one is going to hire you in the high tech industry if you cannot cut it.
post #45 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by emoeric87 View Post
 

I would be willing to wager a winning lottery ticket that you are in fact a White person making what you probably think is a neutral, objective statement about race.

 

I would also wager that you consider people of differing races (whatever they may be) to be truly different than you in some quality or distinction. Sure, there are cultural differences. There are physical differences. But in terms of their humanity, capability, value, and worth, they are absolutely no different. Scientifically speaking, there is actually greater genetic similarity between people of DIFFERING races than people of the same race!

 

Which is why it is so problematic that there are so many of one "race" in power over people of another "race."

 

Don't think CEOs have power, that they knowingly wield over others? I would wager the same lottery ticket I won from my previous bet that there are dozens of posts, articles, and physical evidence could argue otherwise.

 

So why have CEOs that come from different backgrounds? Why from different races? The question is why NOT? Why AREN'T there people from all backgrounds, racial and ethnic, leading corporations, influencing vast swaths of American consumption? What makes White people so special?

 

My apologies if this seems like a rant. But I believe veiled or self-excused racism is, in fact, the worst kind.

 

Apple is hiring the best talent it can get, from across the world, where it can. If African Americans aren't stepping up to the plate, thats their issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrogusto View Post
 

To me, the surprise isn't that there aren't more African-Americans in top-tier tech positions, it's that there aren't more Indians, Chinese and Russians (although there are some of course, like Nadella at Microsoft). In my experience working in technology in New York, those seem to be the dominant groups. I haven't really seen high percentages of African-Americans in technology in any "tier," and the situation isn't much better for women in general. Career choices have a strong cultural component, and this can certainly change, but I don't think the businesses and industries are primarily responsible in this case. Here in New York, there's so much demand for good developers that competitive businesses can't really afford to discriminate even if they wanted to. Which isn't to say that racism and discrimination aren't completely reprehensible and probably still happening somewhere.

 

Because it takes a while to work through. It's beginning to happen though, but remember CEOs are in their 50's, 

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post #46 of 270

As a person who worked at some large Technologies companies over the years and I can tell most all companies try their best to hire a diversified work force. You may have a few hiring managers who have a particular preference, but in the whole for the last 20 yrs at least I have seen lots of efforts to do what is right which is to hire the best possible people no matter their background.

 

With that said you can not hire what does not exist, simply put companies can not solve the problem that engineering and technologies fields do not attract a diverse group of people. Yes, not all jobs at technologies companies required a science and technology background, but in order to move up in the ranks you better have the background.

 

To be more specific in this case, I have meet very few African American Engineers, and I can tell you those who are out there are sought by every company so they can meet their EEOC goals. Also which is not fair is they tend to command a higher pay since companies are desperate to hire them because of people like Jessy making all kind of noise. Because of these initiative you have situation of reverse discrimination, and I have seen it personally.

 

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to hire or work with a number of minorities in technical positions, a few were great and very qualified but most should have never been hired but no one would admit it since they were hired to meet a corporate goal. Personally the government needs to stay out of it, and companies should only have to prove they hired the best qualified person, anything less than that is discrimination.

 

If Jessy want more diversity in the technology workforce he should be in the minority neighborhoods convincing young people to go into the field of study which would allow them to get these kinds of jobs. Companies can only hire what is available to them in the market place. People like Jessy are only interested in putting someone in a position to meet a goal of diversification not whether they are qualified or not.


Edited by Maestro64 - 3/19/14 at 8:12am
post #47 of 270

We often disparage others that bring our own inadequacies to light. Look inside yourself before you lambast someone that is holding the mirror so you can see yourself. Some of you do not know you are ignorant but will understand yourself one day. 

post #48 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by emoeric87 View Post
 

I would be willing to wager a winning lottery ticket that you are in fact a White person making what you probably think is a neutral, objective statement about race.

I would be willing to bet that you are not self-employed or own a business.

post #49 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings View Post

I think Jesse Jackson is probably the worst spokesman for racial equality. He can create more in the negative column than he can in the plus.

 

Like his own son. When given opportunities to represent others (more than his peers would get), J.J. Junior squandered it all.

post #50 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by starflyer View Post
 

No it doesn't.

 

The inclusion of 'rather have all white men... and if that makes me racist, I'm happily so'   is a telling turn of a phrase.   

 

I read that as: I don't care about people not like me, as long as I get and keep mine, and I'll do whatever is necessary to do so'

 

That's prima facie evidence of Racism as I have learned it.

 

But I may be wrong....What's your definition of Racism?

post #51 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by starflyer View Post

I say hire the best people for the job whatever their color, age, sex etc.


I have a dream that one day people will be hired not for the color of their skin....

I agree that firms should hire the best people for the job without regard to race, age, sex etc. 

However, I also think that there are real inequities in society that need to be addressed, and that in far too many cases people who say what you said (and what I agree with) pretend those inequities don't exist or are opposed to every single idea for addressing them. 

So I think that if one rejects one idea, then there is some burden on the rejector to suggest an alternative. 

The alternative I suggest is to focus on economic inequality rather than racial/gender/etc inequality, and use mildly redistributionist policies to address those inequities. By "mildly redistributionist" I mean taxing the rich at a higher marginal rate than the middle class and poor, and using that money to support things like the earned income tax credit and education and health care for the poor. In other words, I support the types of policies that the mainstream Democratic party supports, and that the Republican party is constantly trying to eliminate. 

Putting aside the aroma of a reputed Jessie Jackson shakedown, I mostly agree with both of you.

But, I prefer direct affirmative action -- rather than getting the governments/politicians involved ...

For example, couldn't these companies better address the problems of the middle class and poor by creating jobs in depressed areas -- Detroit, for example.

NY, AZ, TX and others give tax incentives to entice job creation in their states -- Companies that take advantage of these incentives tend to create support jobs (construction, services, etc.) in addition to the direct employment. The fanout benefits the entire community -- not to mention the satisfaction of earning your own way!

I also would rather see investment in direct affirmative action as opposed to token board members.
Edited by Dick Applebaum - 3/19/14 at 8:35am
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post #52 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmondRoca View Post
 

 

Like his own son. When given opportunities to represent others (more than his peers would get), J.J. Junior squandered it all.

A lot more White congressmen have done far worse... so what your saying is non-white congressmen are no different than white congressmen?

 

So they are qualified to sit on boards just like white ex-congressmen?

post #53 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

The simple fact that an article pointing out an obvious fact managed to draw out such blatant racism on this thread speaks volumes. 

Rule of thumb... if you start a sentence with "I'm not a racist, but..." then you're probably about to say something stupid and racist.

I think I spotted just about every race-based dog whistle so far. 
Good job techies!

What is the "obvious fact" that was pointed out?
Edited by SpamSandwich - 3/19/14 at 8:16am

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post #54 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post
 

 

The inclusion of 'rather have all white men... and if that makes me racist, I'm happily so'   is a telling turn of a phrase.  

Well, sure, if you take out bits and pieces of his post.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post
That's prima facie evidence of Racism as I have learned it.

 

But I may be wrong....What's your definition of Racism?

If he had said. "I’d rather have all white men who can do the best job than “one of each flavor” who can also do as good of a job."

post #55 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

I’d rather have all white men who can do the best job than “one of each flavor” who can’t.

 

If that makes me racist, I’m happily so.

You comment 'almost' makes you a racist because it displays such ignorance and unwillingness to understand the issue. Assuming that hiring a person of a different ethnicity ( or of different sexual persuasion or sex for that matter), is tantamount to hiring "one of each flavour" who can't do the job is... wow, words fail me. I don't think that is what you meant but you are kind of implying it.

 

So - ouch!

post #56 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by starflyer View Post

I say hire the best people for the job whatever their color, age, sex etc.

I have a dream that one day people will be hired not for the color of their skin....

Amen to that. A public companies responsibility is to add value for their shareholder. To do that, you want talented innovative people at the top. The determination of that shouldn't be based on the color of their skin, but what they bring to the table. To publicly force a company to place talent based on the sole goal of being diversified only hurts the company as a whole in the end. Apple should (and I hope does) hire people based solely on their talent and whether or not they will mesh with the corporate culture and philosophy of Apple. 

 

The sad fact is that Jackson is nothing more than a public bully pushing his agenda with little regard to the company itself. He doesn't care about the person that didn't get the job and who is better qualified as long as he can wield his power by painting others as racist.

post #57 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post

You comment 'almost' makes you a racist because it displays such ignorance and unwillingness to understand the issue. Assuming that hiring a person of a different ethnicity ( or of different sexual persuasion or sex for that matter), is tantamount to hiring "one of each flavour" who can't do the job is... wow, words fail me. I don't think that is what you meant but you are kind of implying it.

So - ouch!

I believe his point was that hiring based on race IS racism. That is a fact.

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post #58 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman View Post
 

You comment 'almost' makes you a racist because it displays such ignorance and unwillingness to understand the issue. Assuming that hiring a person of a different ethnicity ( or of different sexual persuasion or sex for that matter), is tantamount to hiring "one of each flavour" who can't do the job is... wow, words fail me. I don't think that is what you meant but you are kind of implying it.

 

So - ouch!

All he was saying was that if out a group of people he would pick the best for the job. If they all so happened to be white than so be it.

 

It's sad that the same people screaming for equality and togetherness are the same ones that like to put people in separate groups.

post #59 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


Putting aside the aroma of a reputed Jessie Jackson shakedown, I mostly agree with both of you.

But, I prefer direct affirmative action -- rather than getting the governments/politicians involved ...

For example, couldn't these companies better address the problems of the middd class and poor by creating jobs in depressed areas -- Detroit, for example.

NY, AZ, TX and others give tax incentives to entice job creation in their states -- Companies that take advantage of these incentives tend to create support jobs (construction, services, etc.) in addition to the direct employment. The fanout benefits the entire community -- not to mention the satisfaction of earning your own way!

I also would rather see investment in direct affirmative action as opposed to token board members.

And I would posit  that 'token' is a bad choice of words (or was it?)   I think 'Board members who can best represent our global community of owners, employees and customers'

 

Job creation in the knowledge industry is less about creating 'jobs' in Detroit, than to 'educate for the new economy' in Detroit.   That's where the problem lies.  Education is based on property values and people with no excess capital for community reinvestment (due to 100's of years of not being allowed to earn/retain wealth, ending... well, it may not have ended just yet [see 'The New Jim Crowe' book];-( ).

 

It takes a board member block of votes to support a CxO to make a decision to invest in a community.   But it also takes a set of middle and director level managers who are capable and comfortable to fight for success of the program, as there will be risks that need to be addressed in execution.

post #60 of 270

I look at the executive ranks at Apple and see a bunch of talented people. Jesse Jackson sees a bunch of white men.  Who's viewpoint seems more racist? And as bvgk mentioned, where's the racial equality in the NFL or NBA? Or should we not concern ourselves with that inequality, or worse, let a bunch of mediocre white guys play just to "even things out"? Not everyone gets a trophy folks. If we want to talk about equality, let's talk about it fairly and for everyone, not just cherry pick the situations that favor our opinionated agenda.

post #61 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazerCT View Post

Amen to that. A public companies responsibility is to add value for their shareholder. To do that, you want talented innovative people at the top. The determination of that shouldn't be based on the color of their skin, but what they bring to the table. To publicly force a company to place talent based on the sole goal of being diversified only hurts the company as a whole in the end. Apple should (and I hope does) hire people based solely on their talent and whether or not they will mesh with the corporate culture and philosophy of Apple. 

The sad fact is that Jackson is nothing more than a public bully pushing his agenda with little regard to the company itself. He doesn't care about the person that didn't get the job and who is better qualified as long as he can wield his power by painting others as racist.

I certainly hope Cook takes a page from Steve Jobs' book on this matter. Yielding to this kind of strong arm tactic would be a bad precedent.

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post #62 of 270
Maybe if black applicants wore glasses it'd be a different story. lol.gif
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post #63 of 270
I'm completely against racism and the exclusion of women. But the population is still made up of a white majority. And a large part of the women in the US still haven't even entered the workforce. So it does seem a little harsh for Mr. Jackson to say that the only reason for most senior officials in US companies being white and male, is racism and discrimination.
post #64 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post
 

A lot more White congressmen have done far worse... so what your saying is non-white congressmen are no different than white congressmen?

 

So they are qualified to sit on boards just like white ex-congressmen?

post #65 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by starflyer View Post
 

Well, sure, if you take out bits and pieces of his post.

 

 

If he had said. "I’d rather have all white men who can do the best job than “one of each flavor” who can also do as good of a job."

he didn't... he said 'happily racist' if all white men were on the board.   Didn't say how they got there, didn't say why, no validation of the process... just said he'd be happily called that if that were the result.  I try not to read much into what people say, but I also learned that their first direct thought is the most accurate one.

post #66 of 270
As Steve Jobs famously said:

"I'm a very big believer in equal opportunity as opposed to equal outcome. I don't believe in equal outcome because unfortunately life's not like that. It would be a pretty boring place if it was. But I really believe in equal opportunity. Equal opportunity to me more than anything means a great education. Maybe even more important than a great family life, but I don't know how to do that. Nobody knows how to do that. But it pains me because we do know how to provide a great education. We really do. We could make sure that every young child in this country got a great education. We fall far short of that. I know from my own education that if I hadn't encountered two or three individuals that spent extra time with me, I'm sure I would have been in jail."

http://americanhistory.si.edu/comphist/sj1.html

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post #67 of 270
Jesse Jackson is the wrong guy. He's stuck in the past. He doesn't celebrate diversity, he just goes to wherever he can exploit / shakedown people.


http://www.theonion.com/articles/jesse-jackson-honored-for-providing-innercity-yout,505/


He's outdated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQl_6buUggM
post #68 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieL View Post

Yet Jesse Jackson's Rainbow coalition is predominantly black, as is the Black Caucus in Washington DC, the NAACP, etc. He preaches equality, but he can't practice it.

 

Well I think we should have a WET awards and TV station. I mean it's only fair right?

 

The BET is the perfect example of "hey we don't practice what we preach."

post #69 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post
 

 The fact that, especially for African Americans, several generations got no return on their sweat, and even now, a black man with a pristine college degree will more than likely lose out to a white guy with a felony criminal record is telling.

I have to call BS on that.  At most companies anyone with a felony record never gets past the HR screening, so your assertion is clearly factually untrue.

post #70 of 270
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post

The inclusion of 'rather have all white men... and if that makes me racist, I'm happily so'   is a telling turn of a phrase.   

 

No, not in the slightest, but feel free to throw your own prejudices into my argument and I’ll feel free to ignore it.

 
I read that as: I don't care about people not like me, as long as I get and keep mine, and I'll do whatever is necessary to do so'

 

That’s hilarious.

 
What's your definition of Racism? 

 

Showing unjustifiable prejudice toward or against any one (or multiple) races to the detriment of all (or one) others.

 

What’s the definition of “unjustifiable prejudice”, you may ask?

 

Well, assuming the hiring of a quote majority unquote figure is, in itself, prejudice…

 

Originally Posted by paxman View Post
Assuming that hiring a person of a different ethnicity (or of different sexual persuasion or sex for that matter), is tantamount to hiring "one of each flavour" who can't do the job is...

 

…your assumption and yours alone, based in absolutely nothing said or implied by me. So try again.

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post #71 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post
 

he didn't... he said 'happily racist' if all white men were on the board.   Didn't say how they got there, didn't say why, no validation of the process... just said he'd be happily called that if that were the result.  I try not to read much into what people say, but I also learned that their first direct thought is the most accurate one.

Reread his post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

I’d rather have all white men who can do the best job than “one of each flavor” who can’t.

 

If that makes me racist, I’m happily so.

 

He is saying that if he is racist for hiring the best people for the job that just so happens to be all white people then he will just have to be labeled racist.

post #72 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by bvgk View Post

While we are at it .... lets also bring diversity into NFL , NBA as well

Why?  Say something that at least makes some sense.  The Caucasians have all the boardrooms locked up for themselves, so at least leave the sports arenas and fields to the minorities.  I'd say that's only fair as the corporations have most of the wealth in America.  Tim Cook is going to keep that $160 billion in his own pocket and he's making sure no minorities are ever going to get their hands on it.

 

/s

post #73 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by starflyer View Post

All he was saying was that if out a group of people he would pick the best for the job. If they all so happened to be white than so be it.

It's sad that the same people screaming for equality and togetherness are the same ones that like to put people in separate groups.

I'm sorry but the best people for the job can't be all of one race. Again, it's the opportunity that is missing.
post #74 of 270
My suggestion to Mr. Jackson is instead of complaining to companies about lack of diversity, he should tell young blacks that they should study as hard as they can if they want to be a tech executive. If there were a larger pool of qualified minorities to choose from, there would be more minority tech execs. That's not tech companies' fault.
post #75 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibitzer View Post


That's your assertion that you're trying to label as a fact. Where's the data to support your assertion?"
 
 

Look at high school graduation rates: that's a very tough impediment.

post #76 of 270

The Rainbow Coalition is a rather silly name because a rainbow would suggest Jackson and his group support a variety of minorities which is never the case. How many boycotts has he threatened over Asian, Latino, gay, or women issues? The only time Jesse or Al choose to chime in is over perceived slights against blacks. There is no rainbow coalition.  This is simply a group that does it's best to extort money from gullible companies as hush money. Didn't Microsoft just hire an Indian born man to be CEO? I believe Blackberry hired a Chinese person as their CEO. I would bet if you consider other minorities besides blacks, the tech companies he is targeting have a much more diverse workforce than most other industries simply because the majority of students graduating from California colleges are indeed minorities. Interesting how all other minorities appear to be invisible to Jesse.

 

Here is a quote from a very long time ago. Booker T. Washington saw the danger of people like Jesse Jackson over a 100 years ago.

"There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs. There is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don't want the patient to get well."  Booker T. Washington

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

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Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. 

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post #77 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

Thanks for implying I believe otherwise, by the way. That goes over well with people–claiming things about them you cannot possibly know.

Racism Definition:

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
"Theories of Racism" - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Post-cism Definition:

The belief that a thread poster possesses characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that post, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another post or posts.
"Theories of Post-cism" - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different post based on the belief that one's own post is superior.

1wink.gif
post #78 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

I agree that firms should hire the best people for the job without regard to race, age, sex etc. 
Which is what I suspect Apple does.
Quote:
However, I also think that there are real inequities in society that need to be addressed, and that in far too many cases people who say what you said (and what I agree with) pretend those inequities don't exist or are opposed to every single idea for addressing them. 
Yeah some people are born stupid, you don't expect them to get promoted or work their way up the corporate ladder. As to African Americans , how many are in the tech industry to begin with, especially the computing related areas? Not many from what I can see. I've meet a few mechanical and electrical engineers but few focused on this industry.

As to inequalities I really think you blow things out of proportion. I've meant many African Americans working in the trenches so to speak just like me. Like me many don't want to involve themselves in the corporate ladder climbing community.
Quote:
So I think that if one rejects one idea, then there is some burden on the rejector to suggest an alternative. 
The alternative is simple, get off your dead ass and work for it. That is if you really want it.
Quote:
The alternative I suggest is to focus on economic inequality rather than racial/gender/etc inequality, and use mildly redistributionist policies to address those inequities. By "mildly redistributionist" I mean taxing the rich at a higher marginal rate than the middle class and poor, and using that money to support things like the earned income tax credit and education and health care for the poor. In other words, I support the types of policies that the mainstream Democratic party supports, and that the Republican party is constantly trying to eliminate. 

This is exactly what is wrong with the country right now and why I reject this non sense. Frankly I'm not even a republican but do believe I have enough social experience that handouts solve nothing. In fact they create more problems than they eliminate. The worst result of such policies is the placement of idiots in positions they can't handle.
post #79 of 270
Originally Posted by starflyer View Post

He is saying that if he is racist for hiring the best people for the job that just so happens to be all white people then he will just have to be labeled racist.

 

Thanks. I didn’t figure I had to say “just so happens”, but…

 

Originally Posted by GTR View Post
Post-cism Definition:

The belief that a thread poster possesses characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that post, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another post or posts.
“Theories of Post-cism" - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different post based on the belief that one's own post is superior. 1wink.gif

 

Next we’ll have trolls claiming we’re being opinionist (or, rather, paid-ist) for banning them.

Originally posted by Relic

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Originally posted by Relic

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post #80 of 270
This is another case of someone preaching that black people should be included because they are black, regardless how smart they are.

Satya Nadella is Indian and he's CEO of Microsoft.
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