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Apple cracks down on Personal Hotspot abuse with iOS 7.1 update - Page 3

post #81 of 136

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

And sometimes users don’t think before posting stupidity.

 

You know that restricting APN changes affects more than tethering?  No, you didn't?  Yeah, I didn't think so.

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

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   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

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post #82 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof View Post

The modem is separate from the main CPU that does the higher level network processing thus by your definition every smartphone is always using tethering which would forbid any use with a data service on those operators. That's the reason why I say that tethering is a made up term in this context because the implied meaning is completely different from technical reality.

When a astronaut is in a spaceship he/she is not part of the ship, and when they're out in space being held by a cable then they're tethered.
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post #83 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordJohnWhorfin View Post

That's really disgusting on Apple's part. Why do they feel compelled to act as the carrier's police when Android doesn't? Nice way to drive customers away to Android.

Feel free to join them.
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post #84 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post

That's the reason I never upgrade to a new iOS unless it's out 6 months after all the bugs are ironed out and all the rants are known.  People who did, screwed by Apple.  From what I know,  it'll be difficult to downgrade.

Just use a pen instead.
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post #85 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Sometimes Apple does stupid shit.

If I'm paying for 2GB (or 4GB or 10GB or whatever) of bandwidth per month, it shouldn't matter how I use it.  This just allows the carriers to gouge users for an additional fee to use the bandwidth they are already paying for.

I've really been loathe to go the whole jailbreaking route, but this could very well change my mind...

I loathe jailbreaking. If you do, may your iPhone or iPad be rendered useless.
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post #86 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipen View Post

I thought Apple always has the bargaining power.  When did that table turn?
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post #87 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

You're incorrect. Android 4.4 does not permit any unauthorized tethering.

I do unauthorized teethering all the time with my AT&T HTC One with Android 4.4.2.
post #88 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Apple and Google have done a lot to dry up revenue streams the carriers once had. Apps, ringtones, and SMS/MMS to name a few while at the same time putting a heavier burden on their network. At some time you have to throw them a bone. I'm paying less for service on 2 smartphones now than what I paid on 2 feature phones just a few years ago.

Not really. The ubiquity of wifi—thanks to devices like the iPod touch, the iPhone and the iPad—have led to less data being used on the carriers' networks. And, although their revenue stream from SMS is reduced, the load is also reduced by iMessage, which automatically is defaulted to when on wifi. Horses for courses.
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post #89 of 136
Originally Posted by prof View Post

The takeaway here is: Is it not up to Apple to decide and/or enforce who can use this function or not. That's strictly between the operator and the customer and Apple trying to be a MITM is shady behaviour.

 

Hardly. Apple is fulfilling their contractual obligation.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post
You know that restricting APN changes affects more than tethering?  No, you didn't?  Yeah, I didn't think so.

 

Nice try. Shame none of that applies here.

Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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Originally Posted by Marvin

The only thing more insecure than Android’s OS is its userbase.
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post #90 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof View Post

That's completely bogus. There's no legal way some operator can forbid tethering via fineprint, if you pay for a regular data service you may use it in any way. If in doubt buy a MiFi device... It's really painful to see Apple participate in such shady behaviour.

If you think you that paying for a regular data service means you can use it in any way, you obviously haven't read the terms and conditions...
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post #91 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlscout View Post

Apple does not even always permit tethering if it is clearly allowed by the carrier.

No idea why they purposefully restrict their own devices but they do.

Giffgaff UK, a MVNO using the O2 network, allows tethering, yet, as Apple refuses to give them their own carrier file and designation, it is not possible to activate the personal hotspot.

Android users on giffgaff can tether while Apple users can not.

Probably because it's such a stupid name.
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post #92 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

Ah well, there are additional tethering options if you jailbreak your iPhone, just not if you updated to iOS 7.1 as of this posting... :/

Glad that all you jailbreakers can't use iOS 7.1; long may it continue.
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post #93 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post


If you think you that paying for a regular data service means you can use it in any way, you obviously haven't read the terms and conditions...

How do carriers justify their tethering policies? How does loading a webpage on an iPhone affect the network any differently from loading a webpage on an iPad that happens to be connected to the internet through the iPhone?

post #94 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek View Post

If I pay for 1gb of data I should be able to use that 1gb however I want. I appreciate that it is the carriers that put the block in place but it's a disgusting way to screw your customers over.

It's up to the carriers how they let you use their data, not you.
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post #95 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulk001 View Post

I have an iPad with 2 gigs of data via Sprint (I know, bad choice but it was cheap and I don't use it often.) The FCC Verizon decision makes it legal to tether if you have a set data cap but I could not figure out how to setup the tethering on the iPad so I called Sprint. They agreed that under the FCC decision I was allowed to tether but they were not legally obligated to provide the tools to do so and made it clear that they would not help me. They will turn on the monthly hotspot but it would be an additional monthly fee! So I just jailbroke the device and when I can actually get a workable connection MiWi works great. 

I'm glad you can't use 7.1. Fingers crossed that your iPad gets stolen.
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post #96 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post



Jailbreaking a phone in the US is legal through 2015, at the very least. 


What laws?  You're going to have to cite the actual law being "broken" if you expect anyone to take you seriously.  Otherwise we're all going to assume you're just making this up as you go.

Jailbreaking an Apple device anywhere in the world is a breach of contract with Apple.
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post #97 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorin Schultz View Post

Except that this is what happens when the reigns are relaxed even just a little. We get abject greed trumping ethical policy. There is absolutely zero justification for a supplier imposing rules on how you consume what you buy from them, yet this goes on even WITH the spectre of government intervention. Imagine how egregious the customer boning would become if you removed that threat.

There's every justification—business.
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post #98 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyRobber View Post

I? a tiny rat. you agree!!!

You're right; we do agree.
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post #99 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof View Post

The fact is that tethering is a made up term used to describe a functionality of certain end devices instead of being a technical or lawful term that could be used to impose limits in contracts. Many devices (even those sold by the operators together with these contracts) are employing the very same "tethering" mechanism as the single possible way to use the data service at all. In Europe clauses in contracts which are surprising to the customer (eg. because they prevent the use of product for its intended purpose like here) are completely void. So while it would be lawful to exclude the use of a data service for more than one concurrent end device (which is quite likely what the tethering clauses are supposed to mean) it is not lawful to forbid the use of an intermediate access device (which is what tethering really means).

In my opinion Apple here chose to play nice with the operators solely for their own gain without having any real obligation to do so.

Your opinion is wrong.

Fixed that for you.
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post #100 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof View Post

As you obviously figured out by yourself in the very same post Apple is not following any kind of law here they're simply facilitators for some network operators who put some (in many countries) void clauses into their terms and conditions. Also by enforcing some kind of incomplete whitelist they're obviously not only taking away functionality from customers whose operators try to (rightfully or not) block the functionality by contractual means but also from operators which do not even try to forbid that kind of use but for some reason didn't make it onto the whitelist.

The takeaway here is: Is it not up to Apple to decide and/or enforce who can use this function or not. That's strictly between the operator and the customer and Apple trying to be a MITM is shady behaviour.

Wrong again.

Pleasure.
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post #101 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof View Post

The modem is separate from the main CPU that does the higher level network processing thus by your definition every smartphone is always using tethering which would forbid any use with a data service on those operators. That's the reason why I say that tethering is a made up term in this context because the implied meaning is completely different from technical reality.

Technical reality seems to be the one you're living in.
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post #102 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof View Post
 

The fact is that tethering is a made up term used to describe a functionality of certain end devices instead of being a technical or lawful term that could be used to impose limits in contracts. Many devices (even those sold by the operators together with these contracts) are employing the very same "tethering" mechanism as the single possible way to use the data service at all. In Europe clauses in contracts which are surprising to the customer (eg. because they prevent the use of product for its intended purpose like here) are completely void. So while it would be lawful to exclude the use of a data service for more than one concurrent end device (which is quite likely what the tethering clauses are supposed to mean) it is not lawful to forbid the use of an intermediate access device (which is what tethering really means).

 

In my opinion Apple here chose to play nice with the operators solely for their own gain without having any real obligation to do so.

 

I find your argument very persuasive, and apart from the legality, I concur with your opinion that Apple chose to play nice with the carriers, and really didn't need to do so.  

 

Do you find a parallel with carriers charging for txt/sms messages? It is my understanding that they are delivered within the unused space of the handshake packets which mobile phones must send and receive to maintain contact with cell towers.  The handshakes are sent and received constantly and are a part of the phone's standby activity. The txt/sms message is a mere re-arrangement of the data already being transferred, and costs the carrier zero.  In fact, it costs them to actively monitor whether there is an embedded message, solely in order to bill you for it.

post #103 of 136
Good for Apple. The fewer iPhones in the hands of thieves, the better.
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post #104 of 136
Tethering is included with my Verizon plan along with reliable service
post #105 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof View Post
 

The takeaway here is: Is it not up to Apple to decide and/or enforce who can use this function or not. That's strictly between the operator and the customer and Apple trying to be a MITM is shady behaviour.

 

Actually, yes it is up to Apple if they wish their devices to be usable on those networks. The carriers have strict requirements that Apple and any other manufacturers with cellular components must follow before they're allowed in the network. They have contacts in place to ensure each device does not take up the allowable amount of data based on the data plan. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by d4NjvRzf View Post
 

How do carriers justify their tethering policies? How does loading a webpage on an iPhone affect the network any differently from loading a webpage on an iPad that happens to be connected to the internet through the iPhone?

Here's the beauty of it, they don't have to justify it. It's their networks, they can do whatever they want with it. 

If you're not happy, you can switch to a different carrier with a better tethering policy. 

 

In the past, this is justified because of the unlimited data plans. Back then, you could practically use your cell phone as a primary internet access for all devices in your home. That eats up a lot of data and something that's not sustainable for the carriers given the finite resources available for the spectrum. 

 

That's why they're enabling tethering more freely on the new data plans that are no longer unlimited. 

 

I wish FCC and/or Congress can step in and tell all carriers that as long as there's a data cap, they have no rights to charge customers for using it in any way they want. 

 

Until then, we're stuck with this usual business being greedy crap. 

 

Note that if you're paying for an unlimited Internet plan at home, there are restrictions in place as well. They can still legally terminate your service if you use too much data in a given timeframe. Sad but it's true. 

post #106 of 136
Quote:

Hardly. Apple is fulfilling their contractual obligation.

 

Contract with whom? An unlocked phone is an unlocked phone, there're no contracts with every operator in the world (which would be tens of thousands).

post #107 of 136
Quote:

Actually, yes it is up to Apple if they wish their devices to be usable on those networks. The carriers have strict requirements that Apple and any other manufacturers with cellular components must follow before they're allowed in the network. They have contacts in place to ensure each device does not take up the allowable amount of data based on the data plan. 

Not true, there's no such thing as an obligation to have contracts with every operator on the planet. In fact if you buy a $20 cheaper phone from India or a $50 smartphone from the friendly chinaman around the corner you can pretty much expect that they haven't even talked to any major operator in their life and yet the phones do work just fine.

post #108 of 136
Quote:

Do you find a parallel with carriers charging for txt/sms messages? It is my understanding that they are delivered within the unused space of the handshake packets which mobile phones must send and receive to maintain contact with cell towers.  The handshakes are sent and received constantly and are a part of the phone's standby activity. The txt/sms message is a mere re-arrangement of the data already being transferred, and costs the carrier zero.  In fact, it costs them to actively monitor whether there is an embedded message, solely in order to bill you for it.

Huh? Sorry but that's completely off (and -topic as well). Of course they can charge whatever they want for any service, how much it costs them to provide this service (and I completely disagree with your bill here, maintenance, support, interop testing, and things like lawful interception do cost money) does not matter at all.

post #109 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post

(don't know about Sprint and Verizon)

I have Verizon and I pay an extra $30 a month for the unlimited 'Personal Hotspot' feature.
post #110 of 136

Here in SE Asia I have hotspot enabled for free and 3GB / month of 3G for $20. Benefits of having actual market competition. Getting upgraded to 4G for free in a few months too. Oh there's phone minutes and texts included too but I mostly use the phone for data. 

 

Enabling hotspot for $30 is a sick joke. 

post #111 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negafox View Post

I do unauthorized teethering all the time with my AT&T HTC One with Android 4.4.2.

How? Is your phone rooted?
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post #112 of 136
It's very telling whose side AppleInsider is on, by their uncritical, un-ironic use of the word "abuse" in this context. There is 100% agreement, literally very human being on the planet, that carriers should not charge extra for tethering. I am saying that anyone who does not agree is not human, but potentially human if they change their mind to the right side of this issue.
post #113 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic_Al View Post

It's very telling whose side AppleInsider is on, by their uncritical, un-ironic use of the word "abuse" in this context. There is 100% agreement, literally very human being on the planet, that carriers should not charge extra for tethering. I am saying that anyone who does not agree is not human, but potentially human if they change their mind to the right side of this issue.

We all agreed to the rules, and just because we pay for something doesn't entitle us to use it however we want.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #114 of 136
Quote:
 We all agreed to the rules, and just because we pay for something doesn't entitle us to use it however we want.

 

On the contrary, telecommunication firms' willing and ongoing complicity with the human rights violations committed by government agencies frees everyone to treat them with the same lack of moral or legal consideration.

post #115 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic_Al View Post

On the contrary, telecommunication firms' willing and ongoing complicity with the human rights violations committed by government agencies frees everyone to treat them with the same lack of moral or legal consideration.

Wrong. You willingly do business with them knowing all this. Nobody forced you to get service from them.
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"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
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post #116 of 136
[quote name="AppleInsider" url="/t/166724/apple-cracks-down-on-personal-hotspot-abuse-with-ios-7-1-update#post_2492314"

Some users whose carrier does allow tethering but does not have a current partner agreement with Apple may have been inadvertently affected by the changes. [/quote]

Just why does Apple by default assume personal hotspot must be off?

If a carrier wants Apple to enforce its contractual right, make them certify with Apple to get a carrier profile on the iphone. Apple can choose to charge for that or they can give it to carriers in return for other commitments.

If the carrier does not or cannot certify with Apple, give the end customer all freedom to make settings as necessary.
post #117 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorin Schultz View Post

Except that this is what happens when the reigns are relaxed even just a little. We get abject greed trumping ethical policy. There is absolutely zero justification for a supplier imposing rules on how you consume what you buy from them, yet this goes on even WITH the spectre of government intervention. Imagine how egregious the customer boning would become if you removed that threat.

There's every justification—business.

 

So it's okay for JuiceCo to tell you you're allowed to drink the juice out of the bottle but are forbidden to drink it from a glass? That's justifiable because it's "business?"

Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

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V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

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Lorin Schultz (formerly V5V)

Audio Engineer

V5V Digital Media, Vancouver, BC Canada

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post #118 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorin Schultz View Post

So it's okay for JuiceCo to tell you you're allowed to drink the juice out of the bottle but are forbidden to drink it from a glass? That's justifiable because it's "business?"

More like going to a buffet with 4 people, paying for only one person but feeding all 4.
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post #119 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
 
More like going to a buffet with 4 people, paying for only one person but feeding all 4.

Depends on if you have unlimited data or not. In many cases the user has a fixed data cap. In that situation it should make no difference to the carrier, in fact they should probably encourage it because tethering is bound to put you over your data cap. In the case of unlimited data the throttling should discourage anyone from abusing the privilege of tethering. Best to play by the rules though especially since it is really quite affordable. But for grandfathered unlimited customers it is a no win situation when they throttle you. That is why I switched to family share. I almost never go over my cap and if I do it is just another $10 per GB and I continue to get full speed.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #120 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


More like going to a buffet with 4 people, paying for only one person but feeding all 4.

That's not an accurate analogy because data plans are not served buffet style; unless you are one of the lucky few grandfathered into an unlimited plan, you pay for every GB you use. If I have four people tethering to my phone's data connection, I'll already have to pay for roughly four times as much data as I would normally use myself. At the end of the day, it's only total usage that matters to the operator.  It makes no difference to the network whether I browse the internet on my iPhone, or on my iPad which is connected to the internet through the iPhone. All that changes in the latter case is that my iPhone is exchanging data with my iPad, but that's a purely local activity.


Edited by d4NjvRzf - 3/20/14 at 7:19pm
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