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Apple expected to sit out on megapixel horserace with 2014 iPhones - Page 4

post #121 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaudiusMaximus View Post

MP does not matter. 5MP is more then enough for general use and general printing. unless you print 20x30 daily

20x30 is the max print size for 8MP, btw
post #122 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

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Originally Posted by abazigal View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post
 

I think the decision for PDF may have been a bit more simplistic and historical in nature.   As you recall, Apple and Adobe got together and developed the Laserwriter printer. This printer used the Adobe Postscript language as its basis for rendering.  It produce beautiful  output but it was not exactly "What You See Is What You Get" (WYSIWYG) at the time because the display rendering engine was not in sync with the printer rendering engine.  So when Steve got kicked out of Apple, he wanted for the NeXTSTEP Workstation to support Postscript rendering directly in GUI rendering engine to put this problem to rest.  This resulted in "Display Postscript" support.  So in short, the screen and printer both render the same because they spoke the same language.  When Apple bought NeXT Computer, they based Mac OS X on NeXTSTEP OS with a few UI changes.   Since Adobe PDF was derived from Adobe Postscript and had grown in popularity (overtaking Postscript), one of those changes was to update NeXTSTEP Display Postscript Rendering Engine to  Render PDF.  Not sure how many people know this, but your Mac and your iOS device's display rendering engine understands PDF directly.  So support for PDF is by design based on its roots from NeXT Computer and the Laserwriter and a desire for true WSIWYG. This is what allows you to "Print to PDF file" from any application in Mac OS X because its already in PDF on the screen.

Not what I would call simpler, but it also makes sense. I would never have thought of looking at it from a printer perspective. Thanks for the share! :)

abazigal,

you are quite welcome. Ironically this takes us full circle to think about camera MP needs from a printer perspective.   These days most photos never get printed and live out their life on a 72 dpi screen (typically 1MP - see the chart I posted above) or Phone screen with about the same effective pixels.  If you are lucky enough to have a Retina iPad, we are talking 3MP.  For those which do make it to prints, most are 4x6 (which if you look at the chart above requires just 1-2 MP).  For the few prints that get printed at 8x10, requires just 4-6 MP.  Anything beyond that like 20x30 posters, we are talking maybe once or twice per lifetime and requires about 10MP. I would hope people would have enough common sense invest into more serious camera equipment than a smart phone if they ever attempted to print something that large and truly understood the costs involved for making and framing a print that large. Its gonna be expensive and noticeable flows will be very apparent and regrettable. We are easily talking $70-100 for that print size completely framed up.  


You make a great point. All photos taken on my iphone are usually shared online, never printed, and even then, they are compressed to save on bandwidth anyways.

Heck, even the photographs we take of school events with cameras turn out small and grainy when printed in the school newsletter.

This is definitely a calculated move on Apple's part.
post #123 of 152
Megapixels whatever. If I'm taking really nice photos I wouldn't use my iPhone with a 500 Gazillion megapixel camera, I use a DSLR. Until one of these companies talking about their big bad megapixel crap phones makes one that shoots RAW they need to shut up.
post #124 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Yeah, they were so slow at releasing 64bit.

You answered your own question and totaly proved their point with the 64bit crack. Apple released it and others said it was a gimmick and a joke because THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT. Seems like Apple was prepping for the future curve with desktop class ray tracing capabilities coming to mobile devices soon.
post #125 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post
 
[] If that is "Good", then what is flawless?

 

My wife's smiling face! :)

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post #126 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick LeSwunder View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Yeah, they were so slow at releasing 64bit.

You answered your own question and totaly proved their point with the 64bit crack. Apple released it and others said it was a gimmick and a joke because THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT. Seems like Apple was prepping for the future curve with desktop class ray tracing capabilities coming to mobile devices soon.

Samsung Note 3 already has 3GB of RAM.   Adding the need to address peripherals and I think its easy to see that they are already at the limit of 32 bits addressability.   They need it more than Apple did, who is currently at 1GB RAM even on the iPad Air.  See my signature below.

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post #127 of 152
Pointless article. Apple have NEVER engaged in the numbers game.
post #128 of 152

There is nothing wrong with Apples conservative approach to digital cameras. The photos that my daughter takes with her iPhone 5 are quite nice looking, very sharp, accurate color reproduction and when printed look pretty fantastic. So I don't think improving on their already proven platform will change many peoples minds. I however still prefer my Nokia 1020 ProView for taking pictures, call it hype, call it a silly amount of MP's but the level of detail in that massive sensor and brilliant control I have over almost every aspect of the photo taking process it is defiantly the best experience I have had on any phone. I'm also one of the few who actually likes the Window's 8 mobile experience, especially for sharing, editing and viewing photos on OneDrive. The level of integration of their cloud services is really quite impressive. The 50GB of free OneDrive space plus my extra 200GB subscription totaling 250GB for under 100 dollars a year and the speed at which the RAW 38MP files and the 5MP photos are uploaded, under 60 seconds is insanely awesome. Last thing, the camera grip accessory with built in battery not only adds some of the best protection (can survive a drop from 4 feet onto concrete, done it) you can have for a phone but adds an additional 2 hours of continues photo taking. This phone was made for serious photography, which is why National Geographic issue them out to their field personal.

 

I'm sure Samsung's attempt at a superior mobile camera experience will be just that an attempt. However you cannot deny that their are companies out there that have successfully merged a high pixel count sensor into a phone, i.e. my Nokia 1020. Even if you don't like Windows 8 mobile, Nokia's overall software experience (that camera phone app is just so impressive), fit and finish is spot on. So I didn't mean to butt in, it's just all this talk of 5MP, 8MP is enough, more than 8MP isn't necessarily talk just got me thinking how much I like my 38MP camera phone and the photos it takes so it can't all be hype. I think Apple has a certain budget to maintain their large margins and adding a higher MP sensor is probably not viable in their set budget nor is it warranted. Apple has their loyal users and it's unlikely many will leave nest because a camera happens to better on a different platform. Apple users want the entire package to work, great you have a nice camera but if the software behind it sucks who cares. That's why Samsung will fail but please don't bundle in all high MP camera phones in the same category as Samsung, some actually pull it off quite nicely.

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post #129 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post
 
 

You completely misrepresented what I said and created a fictitiously bogus straw man argument and got called out on it and I am a d-bag? I have no idea what you mean by " is ok for forever on a phone image never to be printed" My point stands. Apple need to also focus on improving the FaceTime camera as well as the rear one and I doubt few here would disagree with that statement. 

I think that Apple knows better than you what sort of a camera belongs on our phones, thankyouverymuch.

post #130 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post
 
 

So Nexus aren't top tier and the HTC One?

Neither of them are as good as the iPhone.  No, they are not top-tier.  The iPhone is tops.

post #131 of 152

Personally id be super happy if apple bumped the megapixels slightly, just to 10MP, the ability to save to raw, OIS would be magic, a f2 lens (f1.8 in a dream world) even if the phone had to be slightly thicker to support the camera id be happy with that, then the extra space (thicker phone) could hold a bigger battery, an iPhone with 2x battery life would be O_o amazing :) 
that would make me happy, I seriously doubt apple would actually do this tho, but hey, they might think of something else that would surprise us all.

post #132 of 152
Originally Posted by Zozman View Post
a f2 lens (f1.8 in a dream world)

 

Just give it a 0.95. I’m sure Leica would be happy to give them a bulk discount.

post #133 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zozman View Post
 

Personally id be super happy if apple bumped the megapixels slightly, just to 10MP, the ability to save to raw, OIS would be magic, a f2 lens (f1.8 in a dream world) even if the phone had to be slightly thicker to support the camera id be happy with that, then the extra space (thicker phone) could hold a bigger battery, an iPhone with 2x battery life would be O_o amazing :) 
that would make me happy, I seriously doubt apple would actually do this tho, but hey, they might think of something else that would surprise us all.

" And that's the only thing I need is *this*. I don't need this or this. Just this ashtray... And this paddle game. - The ashtray and the paddle game and that's all I need... And this remote control. - The ashtray, the paddle game, and the remote control, and that's all I need... And these matches. - The ashtray, and these matches, and the remote control, and the paddle ball... And this lamp. - The ashtray, this paddle game, and the remote control, and the lamp, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The paddle game and the chair, and the remote control, and the matches for sure. Well what are you looking at? What do you think I'm some kind of a jerk or something! - And this. That's all I need."

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post #134 of 152
EDIT: Removed accidental post

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post #135 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zozman View Post
 

Personally id be super happy if apple bumped the megapixels slightly, just to 10MP, the ability to save to raw, OIS would be magic, a f2 lens (f1.8 in a dream world) even if the phone had to be slightly thicker to support the camera id be happy with that, then the extra space (thicker phone) could hold a bigger battery, an iPhone with 2x battery life would be O_o amazing :) 
that would make me happy, I seriously doubt apple would actually do this tho, but hey, they might think of something else that would surprise us all.

 

I found RAW to be a waste of space.

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post #136 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick LeSwunder View Post

Megapixels whatever. If I'm taking really nice photos I wouldn't use my iPhone with a 500 Gazillion megapixel camera, I use a DSLR. Until one of these companies talking about their big bad megapixel crap phones makes one that shoots RAW they need to shut up.

Both the 1520 the 1020 shoot RAW format

post #137 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emes View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick LeSwunder View Post

Megapixels whatever. If I'm taking really nice photos I wouldn't use my iPhone with a 500 Gazillion megapixel camera, I use a DSLR. Until one of these companies talking about their big bad megapixel crap phones makes one that shoots RAW they need to shut up.

Both the 1520 the 1020 shoot RAW format

Awesome. Everyone who wants to use up 50MB/photo on their smart phone; raise their hand.  The dirty secret about RAW, is that you rarely know ahead of time when you are going to need it. Therefore you need to shoot with RAW generated all the time to actually be able to use it at the rare times when you could benefit from it.  In my DSLR, I have both JPEG and RAW generated at the same time.  I first pull in the JPEGs only. If I find some photo would actually benefit from RAW in post (wrong WB, exposure, I want to play with push highlights or shadows), then tag it and pull the matching RAW off the card. However, based on the number of shots taken, needing RAW is relatively rare. Aperture supports this workflow, BTW. 

 

Then again the type of people who buy a Nokia smartphone with 41MP (yes!!!!!) with Microsoft OS, over an iPhone probably NEED RAW and will use it on every shot. 


Edited by snova - 3/21/14 at 3:17pm
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post #138 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emes View Post

Both the 1520 the 1020 shoot RAW format

Just checked out the 1520. Pretty impressive, I'll shut up.
post #139 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post
 

" And that's the only thing I need is *this*. I don't need this or this. Just this ashtray... And this paddle game. - The ashtray and the paddle game and that's all I need... And this remote control. - The ashtray, the paddle game, and the remote control, and that's all I need... And these matches. - The ashtray, and these matches, and the remote control, and the paddle ball... And this lamp. - The ashtray, this paddle game, and the remote control, and the lamp, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The paddle game and the chair, and the remote control, and the matches for sure. Well what are you looking at? What do you think I'm some kind of a jerk or something! - And this. That's all I need."

Righhhhtttt....... Anyways.......

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post
 

 

I found RAW to be a waste of space.

 

Just as an option, you should check out what detail can be pulled out from photos in post when working from a raw file, its awesome. 
jpg compression can be done poorly even by the best camera makers, so having uncompressed options would be awesome, makes that 8PM have so much more detail & dynamic range. 

post #140 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zozman View Post

Just as an option, you should check out what detail can be pulled out from photos in post when working from a raw file, its awesome. 

jpg compression can be done poorly even by the best camera makers, so having uncompressed options would be awesome, makes that 8PM have so much more detail & dynamic range. 

Yes, but the average user wouldn't care. A pro would have a DSLR already so the segment that would want RAW on an iPhone is relatively small.
post #141 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

 

Then again the type of people who buy a Nokia smartphone with 41MP (yes!!!!!) with Microsoft OS, over an iPhone probably NEED RAW and will use it on every shot. 

If you don't use Google services and don't care for iPhone exclusive games, Windows Phone doesn't actually seem that bad. The metro aesthetic works much better on a touchscreen phone than on a 27-inch desktop. And the OS uses hardware resources very efficiently.

post #142 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zozman View Post
 

Righhhhtttt....... Anyways.......

 

 

Just as an option, you should check out what detail can be pulled out from photos in post when working from a raw file, its awesome. 
jpg compression can be done poorly even by the best camera makers, so having uncompressed options would be awesome, makes that 8PM have so much more detail & dynamic range. 

 

I'm old school, from the days of film, the moment is what I aim to capture with a minimum of post processing.

 

I don't need thousands of 20-30MB files.

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post #143 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaudiusMaximus View Post

20x30 is the max print size for 8MP, btw

FWIW I've printed far larger than that from photos with even less resolution and the customer pleased as can be with the end product. Really depends a lot on what it's being used for and/or where it's being viewed..
Edited by Gatorguy - 3/22/14 at 3:59pm
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post #144 of 152
It's the right move, especially on a phone. Because most of the photos people take with a phone are shared on social media or used on computer screens, and 8MP is more than enough for such use. Larger photos mean larger files sizes, which in turn means longer upload times and more bandwidth used, which makes it even more inconvenient to use in fact.
post #145 of 152

The 5s camera is amazing.

 

All I want, going forward, in terms of a "better iPhone camera" is better ZOOM. I want to be able to take better, clearer photos, while zooming in a bit. Right now, I'd say that is all that it lacks.

 

If this means more megapixels, then that's what I need. If it can be done without more megapixels, then that's what I need instead. I don't care which.

post #146 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post
 

if you are talking about the A7 (24MP)  vs A7R (36MP) Full frame cameras, the sensor is the same size.  It is the pixel density which is lower on the 24MP model.  Only reasons to recommend a smaller sensors is if you want a cheaper and more compact camera or you want to shoot macro all the time. Which is not the same thing as recommending the same sized sensor with less MP (aka less pixel density). Which is what we are talking about here.

 

OK they recommended the lower res model for the average up to serious hobbyist user then, and not solely for reasons having to do with the sensor... ...which I don't recall, but duly noted, thanks....

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post #147 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac View Post
 

 

Yes, in fact there have been dozens of phones with optical zoom and for quite a very long time. back before smart phones were even the rage my old Toshiba, Fujitsu, and Sharp clam shell type phones all had optical zoom. This was around the 1999-2004 timeframe. Most have been bulky though but they certainly existed. Just a few here

 

Images for phone with optical zoom camera

Interesting.  I do remember some of these, however, with due respect, I specified "smart phones" - and I don't really consider anything around in 2004 (i.e. before the iPhone defined the modern smart phone in 2007) to be "a true smart phone," (I know my LG10000 from 2005 or so could barely, barely get on the net, but not for any useful reason), so I guess, "It depends on the meaning of smart," Lolz......

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post #148 of 152

Agreed! And how many people actually (ever!) print their phone photos? 

 

No, it's the quality of the pixels that counts. A consumer-level half-frame SLR will take a beautifully detailed photo even at a 3 MP setting that will beat the socks off any phone photo taken at 48 MP (or whatever pointless and mythical number the sales-geeks come up with).

 

BTW: the point of having > 10 MP on an SLR is so the photo can be cropped by a factor of 4 or more (i.e. to a 3 MP frame) without getting jaggies. For the full frame most of the information is useless, unless you're printing a poster. The problem with phone cameras is the lack of a (necessarily) large light-gathering lens for telephoto, which I hear is something Apple itself is interested in addressing via a clip-on. 

post #149 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post
 

 

I'm old school, from the days of film, the moment is what I aim to capture with a minimum of post processing.

 

I don't need thousands of 20-30MB files.

I totally agree I'm the same, but i don't want to speak on everyone behalf, we are in the age of instagramming pics, so post processing is a thing.
i don't really use it much, but its good to have.

If you have a blown out pick (highlights) you can sometimes save pics using RAW, if it a holiday pic, you can bet your ass ill post process it to save it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


Yes, but the average user wouldn't care. A pro would have a DSLR already so the segment that would want RAW on an iPhone is relatively small.

 

yeah its true, Raw file is what the camera spits out, so it should be do-able to have it as an option at least to save RAW, the phone compresses the image after its taken.

 

 

For the people that make reference to something like the Sony A7R, with 34MP, yes it is a mirror less camera with a 35mm size sensor, but camera like the (full professional) Canon 1DX & the Nikon D4s have 18MP & 16MP using a 35MM sensor, these are higher end camera than the A7R, infact you could buy 3 A7Rs for the cost of one 1DX or D4s :p by many considered the best cameras that Canon & Nikon make, they don't have crazy high MP counts, they do have camera that do, but the trade off for image scale doesnt allways make sense.

post #150 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob53 View Post

I found a website site, cameraimagesensor.com, that has some mobile phones listed with information about their sensors. The iPhone 5 sensor size is 1/3.2" with a sensor dimension of 4.54×3.42 mm. The Nokia Lumina 1020 with it's huge sensor of 2/3" and sensor size of 8.80×6.60 mm means it's 4X the size of the iPhone 5. With 38MP (effective pixels), it's actually a bit more than 4X the number of the iPhone's 8MP (effective pixels). This should mean the pixel size is at least close to the same size so they both should about the same amount of light gathering capability. The Lumina's size is also the reason why it requires a big bump on the phone and why it takes up so much real estate inside the camera. Camera physics require a certain focal length to cover that large sensor. There comes a point where trying to cram a good quality CMOS sensor into a small device just doesn't fit the size requirements of that device. There have to be trade-offs.

One thing this article leaves out is the photo compression factor of the cameras in these phones. How much data is lost to this compression to allow more than a few photos to reside on the phones internal memory? We all know the Samsung phones don't have very much memory left for photos with all the garbage that's loaded on them so just how many 38MP photos will fit on the Lumina? What happens with video? What happens with a panoramic photo? How long does it take these photos to transfer to your computer or the cloud?

btw: my Canon 60D's 18MP sensor is 22.30×14.90 mm or 9X the size of the Lumina and has a pixel size of 18.5 microns; way more than any mobile phone would ever be capable of using. 

I refused to buy a camera mobile phone (back before the iPhone was even released) until there was a comparable one to my digital still camera. So that meant looking for 5-6Mpixels. None of the iPhones when they came out had it. It wasn't until the iPhone 4 that something was comparable. Meanwhile I had bought the Nokia N95 which had a similar Mpixel sensor. Pictures taken on a mobile phone are horrible. Even the best quality pictures taken on an iPhone or iPad, pale in comparison to pictures taken by much cheaper throw-away digital camera at the same megapixel size. So put a 18 or 32mpixel sensor in a mobile phone if you want, but it's still garbage-in-garbage-out. Most people take pictures inside, which requires low-light adaptability without a flash.

We've come quite a ways from the film cameras with disposable flash bulbs. But some things still remain the same.
post #151 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misa View Post


I refused to buy a camera mobile phone (back before the iPhone was even released) until there was a comparable one to my digital still camera. So that meant looking for 5-6Mpixels. None of the iPhones when they came out had it. It wasn't until the iPhone 4 that something was comparable. Meanwhile I had bought the Nokia N95 which had a similar Mpixel sensor. Pictures taken on a mobile phone are horrible. Even the best quality pictures taken on an iPhone or iPad, pale in comparison to pictures taken by much cheaper throw-away digital camera at the same megapixel size. So put a 18 or 32mpixel sensor in a mobile phone if you want, but it's still garbage-in-garbage-out. Most people take pictures inside, which requires low-light adaptability without a flash.

We've come quite a ways from the film cameras with disposable flash bulbs. But some things still remain the same.

 

The interesting thing was, the photo's taken with the N95 (or other Nokia 5 megapixel camera phones) had much smaller file sizes than those taken with the 2 Megapixel iPhone 3G.

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post #152 of 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Yeah, they were so slow at releasing 64bit.

64-bit memory addressing is a key component to the level of security the iPhone 5s. It's not a bump your chest spec like Samsung and supporting media would make you believe it is. Read Apple's recently released document regarding their security technology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

I'm old school, from the days of film, the moment is what I aim to capture with a minimum of post processing.

I don't need thousands of 20-30MB files.

You must have never worked in a professional studio. Photos used in ads were routinely touched up. Wether it was tricks with the developer, or touching up the negative, it was a regular step in the process. The only difference now is that ability is now available to the masses thanks to technology.
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