or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Future Apple Hardware › Rumor: Apple prepping 12" MacBook without fan, mechanical trackpad button
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Rumor: Apple prepping 12" MacBook without fan, mechanical trackpad button - Page 5

post #161 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by iRun262 View Post


I don't think you enter the 'fanless' TPD until you get to 7W.

 

Well HP already has an Fanless Ultrabook running with Core i5 Haswell. Yes, Poor HP gets no coverage or reviews, it was a pretty decent built machine.

 

So you can be assured only better performance or even lower power from Broadwell.

 

And Intel has since introduce SDP, scenario design power. Which is different to TDP.

post #162 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post

Well HP already has an Fanless Ultrabook running with Core i5 Haswell. Yes, Poor HP gets no coverage or reviews, it was a pretty decent built machine.
Really, first I've heard of this machine. I have to wonder about performance and how quickly it thermally throttles. Do you have a model number we can search on, somebody would have reviewed the thing if it was at all worth it by now. I just don't follow Windows world hardware unless it is known to support Windows well.
Quote:
So you can be assured only better performance or even lower power from Broadwell.
If Intel lives up to its own hype, it would be foolish to purchase an Air this year. However we have seen Intel not live up to its claims and frankly they have already slipped the release of Broadwell.
Quote:
And Intel has since introduce SDP, scenario design power. Which is different to TDP.

Which doesn't help at all when it comes to grasping capabilities and performance one can expect. With everything we know about processors and performance I still see a need for a very significantly sized heat sink. If Apple goes this way I can see them using the CNC'ed case as that heat sink, optimizing the case for thermal transfer. Still 7, 12 or whatever watts, is a lot of power to handle in a very enclosed space.

As I mentioned in another thread all one has to do is take a 12 watt light bulb and put it in a tight container and watch how hot that container gets. Apples challenge will be to spread that heat across the whole housing quickly. I wouldn't be surprised to find heat pipe like solutions built into the case, maybe even some newfangled carbon fiber based solutions.
post #163 of 171
Speaking of carbon fiber has anyone heard any recent rumors about Apple going that route for a machine case? I know there appeared to be a big push in that direction a few years ago. The blogosphere sphere however has been silent on that for a long time now.
post #164 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Speaking of carbon fiber has anyone heard any recent rumors about Apple going that route for a machine case? I know there appeared to be a big push in that direction a few years ago. The blogosphere sphere however has been silent on that for a long time now.

I don't think it's feasible. It doesn't dissipate heat, it can't be milled to the precision that a block of aluminum can, nor can it be milled to allow for special structural features, like mounting areas. I also don't think it can be as thin as milled aluminum which means that to get a particular strength it would need to be bulkier.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #165 of 171

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


I don't think it's feasible. It doesn't dissipate heat, it can't be milled to the precision that a block of aluminum can, nor can it be milled to allow for special structural features, like mounting areas. I also don't think it can be as thin as milled aluminum which means that to get a particular strength it would need to be bulkier.

It's often used for light weight. Look at common use cases where carbon fiber is popular. Bicycle frames, tennis rackets, and tripods are 3 of the most frequent ones I know..

post #166 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post

It's often used for light weight. Look at common use cases where carbon fiber is popular. Bicycle frames, tennis rackets, and tripods are 3 of the most frequent ones I know..

Sure, but those are structures that are much thicker and current MBP casing, don't need to have circuit boards and batteries adhered, or allow heat to dissipate. For larger items mold carbon fiber and epoxy obviously can be better than using metal but so far I've seen nothing that would indicate it would be thinner, lighter, or even close to being better (even if we ignore costs) than using milled aluminium.

The closest usage in a MBP might be the bottom panel since it's mostly flat, only has screw holes (not screw mounts), and is used more for protection than for structural integrity like the top part of the chassis or strong metal display top.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #167 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I don't think it's feasible. It doesn't dissipate heat, it can't be milled to the precision that a block of aluminum can, nor can it be milled to allow for special structural features, like mounting areas. I also don't think it can be as thin as milled aluminum which means that to get a particular strength it would need to be bulkier.

Actually the carbon fibers that are good for heat dissipation are structurally different than the stuff used to build stiff structures. When properly used carbon finer is one of the best conductors of heat we have. There is on going research to use it in rifle barrels to conduct heat away from the liner for example. It is a very interesting material really and likewise there has been research into heat sinks for high performance electronics.

As for milling you wouldn't do that at all, instead it has to be molded in to a net shape or near net shape. Actually milling carbon fiber is very expensive because it wears tooling incredibly fast. The molding processes can actually give you really strong products as you can put material where you need it. The common application here is boats, airplanes and other things that need high strength and light weight.
post #168 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Sure, but those are structures that are much thicker and current MBP casing, don't need to have circuit boards and batteries adhered, or allow heat to dissipate. For larger items mold carbon fiber and epoxy obviously can be better than using metal but so far I've seen nothing that would indicate it would be thinner, lighter, or even close to being better (even if we ignore costs) than using milled aluminium.
Costs are significant but if Apple has no other way to remove heat then it is about the only alternative to aluminum. Interestingly Sapphire is a good conductor of heat. I could see Apple using Sapphire as a heat spreader in a laptop or even a iPad. It would be an expensive choice but maybe more reliable and easier to integrate into existing aluminum housings.
Quote:
The closest usage in a MBP might be the bottom panel since it's mostly flat, only has screw holes (not screw mounts), and is used more for protection than for structural integrity like the top part of the chassis or strong metal display top.

I think you are missing just how rigid this stuff can be, it is often used to make structures that are far more rigid for their weight than can be accomplished with Aluminum. The frames for many space based telescopes are carbon fiber for example.
post #169 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Actually the carbon fibers that are good for heat dissipation are structurally different than the stuff used to build stiff structures. When properly used carbon finer is one of the best conductors of heat we have. There is on going research to use it in rifle barrels to conduct heat away from the liner for example. It is a very interesting material really and likewise there has been research into heat sinks for high performance electronics.

As for milling you wouldn't do that at all, instead it has to be molded in to a net shape or near net shape. Actually milling carbon fiber is very expensive because it wears tooling incredibly fast. The molding processes can actually give you really strong products as you can put material where you need it. The common application here is boats, airplanes and other things that need high strength and light weight.

Can CF be as thin and as strong as the thinnest part of the MBP chassis? What about the resin and heat dissipation since it's about the total material, not just one element.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

Reply
post #170 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Sure, but those are structures that are much thicker and current MBP casing, don't need to have circuit boards and batteries adhered, or allow heat to dissipate. For larger items mold carbon fiber and epoxy obviously can be better than using metal but so far I've seen nothing that would indicate it would be thinner, lighter, or even close to being better (even if we ignore costs) than using milled aluminium.

The closest usage in a MBP might be the bottom panel since it's mostly flat, only has screw holes (not screw mounts), and is used more for protection than for structural integrity like the top part of the chassis or strong metal display top.


It doesn't conduct a lot of heat, which is one of the reasons it's popular for various tripods. It can be set up in cold weather without extreme hand discomfort. I don't know that they really use the shell for heat dissipation. It gets hot, but nothing about the cooling channels really suggests that the use of aluminum improves temperature levels. I mentioned the prior stuff due to it offering a better ratio between weight and tensile strength for some of those applications. It's only used in more expensive items presumably due to higher manufacturing costs compared to aluminum. I'm not sure how it would compare to machined aluminum, as that is likely to be much more labor intensive.

post #171 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Can CF be as thin and as strong as the thinnest part of the MBP chassis?
Good question to which I don't have a good answer. You are talking about material with different characteristics. For instance deformed aluminum might not spring back while a carbon fiber unit may.
Quote:
What about the resin and heat dissipation since it's about the total material, not just one element.

Here is a link with information on a carbon foam solution to heat removal: http://web.ornl.gov/~webworks/cpr/rpt/106741_.pdf. Here is info on a carbon fiber solution: http://marketplace.yet2.com/app/insight/techofweek/33192?sid=350. Here is another solution using Carbon nano tubes: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/175457-this-carbon-nanotube-heatsink-is-six-times-more-thermally-conductive-could-trigger-a-revolution-in-cpu-clock-speeds.

Some really interesting stuff is happening out there when it comes to cooling electronics. Not that these solutions aren't simple matrices of carbon blinded in epoxy. I don't have time to look for further information but there are al sorts of interesting things happening in labs related to the use of various forms of carbon for heat removal.

Wikipedia has some interesting info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity. Which shows that diamond and Graphene are also great conductors of hear. Again forms of carbon.

There are a number of ways to put the various forms of carbon to work on heat transfer. The question is how do you do it in a mass produced laptop computer. That isn't an easy question to answer. I'm still thinking that coupling the CPU directly to the CNC'ed aluminum housing might do the trick for Apple if they went with an ARM based solution. I'm just not convinced that Intel has the right solution.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Future Apple Hardware
AppleInsider › Forums › Mac Hardware › Future Apple Hardware › Rumor: Apple prepping 12" MacBook without fan, mechanical trackpad button