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Rumor: Apple prepping 12" MacBook without fan, mechanical trackpad button - Page 2

post #41 of 171

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post




It would be very hard to accomplish that with the current lineup of Intel parts and realize decent performance. If the release is truly soon it is either an ARM part or an unannounced 14nm part from Intel. The really out there possibility is an AMD part made by TSMC on their sub 20 nm process.
The current A7 isn't good enough. Of course that says nothing about A8. The problem with A7 isn't just the CPU either, the GPU really isn't up to laptop duty. If they did go ARM it would be a new processor tailored for higher power operation but most likely under ten watts.

Don't forget Apple needs to support TB in the AIRs. ARM would mean that Apple has the potential to build their own TB hardware.

I often wish intel had assigned the codename skylark rather than skylake. It's mainly because I think larks are interesting looking birds. Intel has been increasing integration. I wouldn't necessarily call it evolutionary in spite of their having absorbed components for years. They have been more aggressive in recent cycles. I'm just really skeptical about such a large jump in spite of Apple's willingness to embrace some minor to moderate specification downgrades or sidegrades to bring something new to market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


Could be. The Haswell-Y series performs ok at the maximum TDP, it's around a 2010 dual-core i5:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Core-i5-4202Y-Notebook-Processor.102728.0.html

The fanless designs might be restricting it below the maximum power but a small fan could be enough to keep it higher power:
 

I remember you being one of the few people on here to advocate fanless designs. I mention that as an accreditation. I still think it's early though. These rumor mongers like to latch onto whatever they feel may becoming next, regardless of whether the timing is likely.

post #42 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post
 

 

It sure does...Apple hasn't made a fanless Mac since I think the PowerMac G4 Cube. 

 

Don't forget the 2004 G5 with liquid cooling...

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post #43 of 171
Quote:
Umm...tap to click? Seriously who uses the press-down-anywhere to click? They should have done away with the button a while ago. Tap Gestures is all I need.
Good luck trying to play any Steam games with just tapping. Or dragging a file from you desktop, using a gesture for Mission Control, and placing that file in another Window. Or having a lack of efficiency of having to tap a second time (or wait a half a second) to un-tap. You get much finer control when dragging with a mechanical click too.



No fan...so if I play a flash video or turn up the brightness, will the computer heat up like current iDevices?
post #44 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Unknown?

Umm...tap to click? Seriously who uses the press-down-anywhere to click? They should have done away with the button a while ago. Tap + Gestures is all I need.

I've always preferred the physical click on trackpads.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #45 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphMouth View Post

But will it have screen burn in issues?

Like your Chromebook?
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #46 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

I think this fan-less clamshell with a modern trackpad and flash storage is very possible.
It would be ARM
 based and would run iOS with a modern laptop UI that borrows heavily from the iPad Air.

It would also be a very efficient and powerful 64 bit computer.

It would run iOS applications but display a 
context sensitive graphical keyboard instead of the fixed physical keyboard.


It would be a revolutionary computer.

I'd have to try it first as that computer is just in your head.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #47 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

That said, Intel is set to release it's 5th generation 14nm Core chip this summer which reduces power consumption by 30% and maybe at that point it doesn't need a fan.

Wow!
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #48 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sporlo View Post

I've tried tap to click and it's not as functional or easy to use. With a mechanical click, you can control drag and click 100% independent.

Just false. It is the mechanical click that is limiting and more difficult. Drag? There is a 3 finger drag for that, which is literally the easiest drag in the world...nothing beats it's ease of use, or precise control....so easy to invoke, and totally painless, as unlike the mechanical button or even a mouse button, you are not HOLDING DOWN A BUTTON the whole time, just to drag something.
post #49 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

I think this fan-less clamshell with a modern trackpad and flash storage is very possible.
Yes, yes it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

It would be ARM
Nope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

 based and would run iOS with a modern laptop UI that borrows heavily from the iPad Air.
Not a chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

It would also be a very efficient and powerful 64 bit computer.

Yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

It would run iOS applications but display a 
context sensitive graphical keyboard instead of the fixed physical keyboard.

LMAO, nope. It's called a Mac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

It would be a revolutionary computer.

More than likely, yes.
post #50 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by narfybob View Post

Good luck trying to play any Steam games with just tapping. Or dragging a file from you desktop, using a gesture for Mission Control, and placing that file in another Window. Or having a lack of efficiency of having to tap a second time (or wait a half a second) to un-tap. You get much finer control when dragging with a mechanical click too.



No fan...so if I play a flash video or turn up the brightness, will the computer heat up like current iDevices?

What is this craziness about drag? Read my post, two up.
post #51 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by brlawyer View Post

Don't forget the 2004 G5 with liquid cooling...

I don't think that was totally fanless...


Edited by macxpress - 3/22/14 at 7:24am
post #52 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybacmac View Post

I called it back in February: 
"Forget the 12" iPad. There is no usage model that makes any sense…but my thoughts do go either to another device with a 12" screen…"


Ever since the rumors of a 12" screen started, I thought instead of a big iPad Apple might reduce the number of laptop models by consolidating the 11" and 13" MBAs, maybe even the 13" MBP. 
join the club. I said that on say one of these rumors.
post #53 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

I don't think that was totally fanless...

As a matter of fact, I was a fan!

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #54 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post


As a matter of fact, I was a fan!

 

Ha! 

 

I just saw your signature...haha. John C Dvorak was always kind of an Apple hater. I remember him from the ZDTV/TechTV days. 

post #55 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajaram View Post

I don't think my 5 year old MBP has a fan.

It does, the vents are just hidden in the display hinge. Run a few Flash videos and put your finger near the base of the screen 1smile.gif
post #56 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I can see a 12" MBA arriving as 11" is a little small (especially at 16:9) and 13" somewhat convolutes the decision for many buyers with the new MBP designs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybacmac View Post

Ever since the rumors of a 12" screen started, I thought instead of a big iPad Apple might reduce the number of laptop models by consolidating the 11" and 13" MBAs, maybe even the 13" MBP.

Ding ding ding! I believe you nailed it -- except the 13" MBP is here to stay; see below.

Since the price difference between the 11" and 13" MBA is only $100, it's really hard to justify going with the 11" on portability alone -- and paying for that portability with its small display. Could as well have priced it at $100 more than the 13", since price really doesn't play any role in the decision for the 11"; at least for me. It sort of is a Pro device; for those who need a full-size keyboard-equipped Mac with them at all times.
And the 13" is basically redundant. Anyone getting a 13" MBA today either hasn't done their homework comparing it to the 13" MBP; or is an idiot for skimping on the upgrades necessary to still be able to enjoy it a year or two down the road:
The only scenario where the 13" MBA is actually cheaper than the 13" MBP is when you're looking at the respective base models. But then you're stuck with 4 GB of RAM and a 1.3 GHz CPU; the 128 GB SSD might in fact be sufficient for many, as there's always external storage (but even that only really works when you're at your desk). Once you bring the specs up to 8 GB of RAM, which at $100 is a no-brainer, and the very reasonably-priced $150 CPU upgrade, you're already looking at $1349; and if you add to that the 256 GB SSD you're at $1549 -- $50 more than a 13" MBP with 8 GB of RAM, 256 GB SSD and a much faster CPU. Plus you're getting a retina display, and even a smaller footprint than the MBA's -- at the cost of a somewhat shorter battery life, and less than 18% more weight.

So if Apple were to consolidate the two into one 12" MBA, and reduce the bezel a little, that could be a very nice replacement for the 11"; preferably at the same $999. And for whom that is too small, there's the 13" MBP starting at $1299 (I had to check -- prices on retina MBPs really have come down!); soon to take the classic MBP's $1199 price point. So there really is no need for a 13" MBA, is there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I am not sure we'll see the MB line come back as the MBA line seems to fill that space nicely.

I bet the name will return; quite possibly with this very sensible 12" notebook. One model, which surely will become the top-selling Mac (that the MBA is now), one name. The 'Air' has been around for 6 years now (it's been six years already? WTF?!), so it sure would be time for something new. Or in this case old. Well, different. 1tongue.gif
post #57 of 171
An Arm A8 MacBook Air, very interesting idea... Great way to start the transition.
post #58 of 171
True story. I had a friend that interviewed for a hardware job at Apple that said they hinted at an ARM based macbook. At the time I was working on Mac OS hardware team and asked my bosses about ARM processor macbook coming down the pike and they looked at each other and abruptly became silent. This was back in 2011.
post #59 of 171
I rarely use the mechanism click. Tap to click is faster and more intuitive in many ways. I also prefer the two fingered tap for viewing options.
Only problem is using Windows PCs at work. The laptops confuse me since they are button centric.

If removing fan does not impede performance of the CPU then great. More space for the battery!

In the majority of cases the fan will probably not be needed. My MBP Retina rarely uses the fan unless I'm using an intensive app. Other than that the fan is off.

Clearly Apple are emoting towards minimal moving parts and fully enclosed units. It is all good and will again set Apple apart from the crowd.
post #60 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by december View Post

Ding ding ding! I believe you nailed it -- except the 13" MBP is here to stay; see below.

I wouldn't be so sure. Tim Cook is a reputed Logistician extraordinaire so I would expect he would look to reduce the number of screen sizes to maximize production efficiency, reduce parts inventory and costs, and thereby increase profit margins. However, I don't think he'd do it all at once; I think he would wait to see how well the 12" model is received.

 

This is all mute, of course, if the rumor turns out to be oxen droppings :err: 

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post #61 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksec View Post
 

There no technical handles or issues to make a Fanless Laptop. Get it low enough Clock speed Broadwell is there already.

 

The problem is.

It will be slow, definitely slower then previous gen Haswell if it were to go fanless.

GPU will suck, Graphics performance suffer quite heavily.

And finally, ALL ULP Intel chip are extra expensive. No way could Macbook Air continue to sell at this current price range, especially with the rumors Retina Display.

 

All in all, the rumors add up together dont make much sense.

 

Wrong, wrong and wrong...  

 

iPhones and iPads ARM SOCs have the fastest GPUs around with power to spare. (Imagination Technologies Power VR)

This device will most certainly not use Intel Chips.

 

It will use ARM CPU and Power VR GPU and Flash for storage.

The keyboard and trackpad will be context sensitive on a sapphire glass slab.

It will run iOS with a modern laptop UI that borrows heavily from the iPad Air iOS 7 paradigm.

It will be 64 bit and super efficient and iCloud integrated.

It will run iOS applications that exist today.

post #62 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Zahran View Post

An Arm A8 MacBook Air, very interesting idea... Great way to start the transition.

Hmmm…ARM chip? Maybe…A8? I'm very doubtful. Doesn't Apple customize the designs of their chips to max out performance? If Apple were to go ARM on this theoretical device, I think it would have a custom chip specifically built for it.

 

Normally I can't see a MacBook Air as some glorified iPad running iOS, but with the rumored impending release of Microsoft Office for iPad, maybe it would be possible.

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post #63 of 171

My only misgiving with Macs going ARM is that Quicken for Mac is a horrible, embarrassingly shoddy app and there is no realistic alternative to Quicken for Windows.  As it is, I use Fusion and Win7 exclusively to run Quicken and if that option disappears, I'd be up the creek.

post #64 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post
 

 

Wrong, wrong and wrong...

 

iPhones and iPads ARM SOCs have the fastest GPUs around with power to spare. (Imagination Technologies Power VR)

This device will most certainly not use Intel Chips.

 

It will use ARM CPU and Power VR GPU and Flash for storage.

The keyboard and trackpad will be context sensitive on a sapphire glass slab.

It will run iOS with a modern laptop UI that borrows heavily from the iPad Air iOS 7 paradigm.

It will be 64 bit and super efficient and iCloud integrated.

It will run iOS applications that exist today.

You make some very interesting points and Apple has definitely filed many patents related to context sensitive keyboards and trackpads.  Let's assume Apple makes a device close to what you're proposing.  It surely won't belong to the Mac line-up and will be a new class of device with a new name. And it definitely fits in line with what Tim Cook was saying regarding new service and product categories for 2014.

post #65 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Umm...tap to click? Seriously who uses the press-down-anywhere to click? They should have done away with the button a while ago. Tap + Gestures is all I need.

 

Try highlighting a sentence...you can only do it with press-down-click then drag your finger to highlight. If you double tap to click, it only highlights one word. 

 

Don't do it Apple, you will make a lot of people really angry!

post #66 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post
 

My only misgiving with Macs going ARM is that Quicken for Mac is a horrible, embarrassingly shoddy app and there is no realistic alternative to Quicken for Windows.  As it is, I use Fusion and Win7 exclusively to run Quicken and if that option disappears, I'd be up the creek.

If it's going ARM, then I doubt it will be a Mac.  Think new product category.

post #67 of 171
I remember reading about an apple patent related to the use of ionized air electrict, and magnetic fields to creat an air current without the need of fan... maybe they have perfected that technology and it is ready for deployment,
Edited by Bogar - 3/22/14 at 11:29am
post #68 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS11 View Post
 

The current Haswell U series chip in the Macbook Air:

 

i5-4250U - $315

 

A fanless Haswell Y series chip:

 

i5-4300Y - $281

 

Source: Intel ARK

 

I'm not sure I'd rely on the HD4200 to power a Retina Display. Remember the complaints about the lag on the original 13" rMBP?

post #69 of 171
Because they automatically overclock at the prescence of a benchmark test, at least i read a lot of stories and posts refering to that in almost every non apple smartphone.
post #70 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielsutton View Post
 

This is very interesting.  Considering that both iOS and OS X share much of the same codebase and libraries, it is possible that this new MacBook computer runs an ARM processor.  Apple has many years of experience transitioning OSs from one architecture to another (Motorola 68K to PowerPC to Intel), so it would not be unheard of for them to use an ARM processor in this notebook.  I am very interested to see what this new machine will look lit, and it cold even be the "iPad Pro" that was predicted recently, although it is more reminiscent of a MacBook Air than an iPad...

 

However, Apple has given no indication that it will merge iOS and OS X any time soon, if ever. They haven't even activated full multi-tasking on iOS yet, probably because of power considerations and the relative limitations of ARM. I doubt that they would move away from Intel just yet, particularly when Intel's desktop and notebook-class processor designs are significantly more powerful than anything ARM has at the moment. It's the mobile device space where ARM has the advantage.

post #71 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by KPOM View Post

However, Apple has given no indication that it will merge iOS and OS X any time soon, if ever.
I really don't think anybody is saying merge the OS'es. Rather we re saying produce a Mac that can leo run iOS apps. Big difference!!!! They currently have everything to do this inlace with the iOS emulator running with Xcode. All they need to do is dress it up a bit and make it more transparent to the user.
Quote:
They haven't even activated full multi-tasking on iOS yet, probably because of power considerations and the relative limitations of ARM.
Power isn't the big problem on a laptop. However it is also a mistake to refers to it as activated. Multi-Tasking works fine on iOS devices, it just isn't a user facility.
Quote:

I doubt that they would move away from Intel just yet, particularly when Intel's desktop and notebook-class processor designs are significantly more powerful than anything ARM has at the moment. It's the mobile device space where ARM has the advantage.

And a laptop is what - a mobile device. As to performance that is an interesting can of worms to open. Modern operating systems and user apps currently can reasonably exploit four cores so If Apple can deliver four course at reasonable power levels many apps will fell fine performance wise. One only has to look at the latest iPads to see how functional apps can be when targeting ARM. With a laptop that ARM chip would be running at a higher clock rate, possibly much higher, and would likely be an significant upgrade from A7 in other ways.
post #72 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by psitthipo View Post
 

 

Try highlighting a sentence...you can only do it with press-down-click then drag your finger to highlight. If you double tap to click, it only highlights one word. 

 

Don't do it Apple, you will make a lot of people really angry!

 

More like it will just make you very angry. You can't speak for others...

post #73 of 171
It doesn't surprise me that this thread has erupted in intel codenames and specs.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #74 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by brlawyer View Post
 

 

Don't forget the 2004 G5 with liquid cooling...

It still had fans.

post #75 of 171

Some time ago, I mused on this forum about a mobile device with a laptop form factor. Instead of traditional keys, it would use a glass "keypad" with tactile feedback. It would be more mobile (thinner and lighter) than the current MacBook Air. This could be it and it probably will be a Mac. The iPad is already taken care of. Apple knows folks will slap a keyboard cover on it if need be.

 

The MacBook Air will be removed from the Mac product line and this will be branded simply MacBook. It will be $999 and it will be the best selling Mac ever. 

 

As another poster mentioned there exists Apple IP for tactile feedback "keypads". There also is IP for etching solar circuits on glass. The surface area of a buttonless "laptop" with a single sheet of glass with tactile feedback and a context aware keyboard/UI glass is the future. Apple wants to completely seal the device. (They also have IP for fusing glass (sapphire?) with Liquidmetal.) If used, such a keypad would eliminate a major source of damage-keyboard spills.

 

In less than 10 years, Apple has trained several generations of users to type on glass. 

 

You're now looking at fanless, keyless, .5 inch thick Retina device with a 12" display, Intel ULP processor, and 15 hours of battery life-all under 2 pounds. It's Jony Ive's dream machine, all glass and aluminum exterior. I definitely fantasize about this.

For your sake, I hope you're right.
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For your sake, I hope you're right.
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post #76 of 171
The new MacBook will be fanless, but you will be expected to pick it up often and whiff it back and forth in the air to keep it cool. A new app will keep a record of your effort and calculate how many calories you've expended. This will be advertised as a new feature and people will flock to buy them.
"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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"That (the) world is moving so quickly that iOS is already amongst the older mobile operating systems in active development today." — The Verge
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post #77 of 171
People (for certain values of "people") whine about the "Apple Tax™"—but the real anchor tied around the industry's neck is the Intel Tax. The prices of their processors are highway robbery.

If it were possible to use an ARM processor instead of Intel (I have no opinion on its feasibility), that would be a great thing. Probably it will take a generation or two more before that's possible.

In the meantime: Adding an ARM processor like the A7 to a laptop would (proportionally) add almost nothing to the cost—could it be used to handle a lot of the housekeeping chores that CPU cycles are currently wasted on? Then the ARM processors could progressively take over more and more functions until the Intel chip could be done away with—some years down the road.
post #78 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post


I don't think that was totally fanless...

 

Interestingly, the diagram below doesn't show them - is the picture above from liquid-cooled models?

 

http://appleinsider.com/article/?id=508

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post #79 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post

Wrong, wrong and wrong...  

iPhones and iPads ARM SOCs have the fastest GPUs around with power to spare. (Imagination Technologies Power VR)
This device will most certainly not use Intel Chips.


It will use ARM CPU and Power VR GPU and Flash for storage.

The keyboard and trackpad will be context sensitive on a sapphire glass slab.
It will run iOS with a modern laptop UI that borrows heavily from the iPad Air iOS 7 paradigm.
It will be 64 bit and super efficient and iCloud integrated.
It will run iOS applications that exist today.
That sure would be a useless machine for those of us who use BootCamp!

I would never buy a computer with no ability to efficiently run the code that currently works on my MBA (all x86 software).
post #80 of 171
Quote:

Originally Posted by brlawyer View Post

 

 

Don't forget the 2004 G5 with liquid cooling...

Which serious fannage to help the liquid cooling part of heat management work properly.

 

Remember commentary by early users of sound levels with all fans going under load?

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