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Project "Glove" and "Lucida" in July - Page 4

post #121 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

Heh...yeah...just saying most submerisble watches don't even survive free-dive depths.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah : i was just kidding ..., concerning the watch you are true indeed. The greatest problem is the lack of water resistance after the replacement of battery : you can notice that the Rolex does not need battery ...and have the world record of immersion 33 000 feets.
post #122 of 390
For those inquiring about the Foveon, it sure is nice isn't it? Too bad it's also $$$. No consumer camera would use the 3 megapixel version of the CCD, and the 1.x version really is a bit too small.

If you want to see some amazing shots from a Foveon based imager, <a href="http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/" target="_blank">http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/</a>

Note the yellowness in a few of the photos...the only visual weakpoint of the pre-production Foveon imagers I've seen. As it's just a saturation issue, I think camera manufacturers can easily fix that if it's not already fixed at the CCD level.

Over-all, some pretty amazing photographs as far as digital is concerned.

If I were to buy a camera this summer though, I'd probably just stick with the Nikon D100...It seems to best the D60 in terms of detailed resolution by just a smidge...and it's cheaper here...
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post #123 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>For those inquiring about the Foveon, it sure is nice isn't it? Too bad it's also $$$. No consumer camera would use the 3 megapixel version of the CCD, and the 1.x version really is a bit too small.

If you want to see some amazing shots from a Foveon based imager, <a href="http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/" target="_blank">http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/</a>

Note the yellowness in a few of the photos...the only visual weakpoint of the pre-production Foveon imagers I've seen. As it's just a saturation issue, I think camera manufacturers can easily fix that if it's not already fixed at the CCD level.

Over-all, some pretty amazing photographs as far as digital is concerned.

If I were to buy a camera this summer though, I'd probably just stick with the Nikon D100...It seems to best the D60 in terms of detailed resolution by just a smidge...and it's cheaper here...</strong><hr></blockquote>
yes i have see the images and the Foveon's web site : wonderfull tech. The detail of the skin of the young ladie was wonderfull : the eyelid the eye.
What will be thre prize of a 3 M foveon Eugene ?
Perhaps in the future the prize will drop down.
post #124 of 390
Something using the Fovean would be cool. I take a lot of digital camera pictures and the ones on their site are outstanding. However, you can expect a lot of companies to start using this chip once they bring it to the consumer level. Apple might, however, have in mind a special application that requires a combination of characteristics not found in current cameras. They might then manufacture their own camera for a few years till it is no longer special, like their history with laser printers.

Regarding licensing, doesn't Apple already supply some sort of site license to schools and companies? Perhaps they are thinking of making the terms more favorable?

I doubt they would make the OS nearly free. Hardware will continue to get cheaper and cheaper. The only thing left with value will be the intellectual property (the OS and apps). How much profit can Dull get when peecee hardware costs $10 each? However, even if the hardware is nearly free you would still be willing to shell out another few bucks for a cool OS and useful apps.
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post #125 of 390
There are equally outstanding pictures from Bayer pattern cameras, and they cost a lot too.
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post #126 of 390
The Foveon reference design uses Firewire....hmmm
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post #127 of 390
OK, what if the waterproof part is not designed for Eugene to take on his next expedition to a deep sea volcano, but for the family around the pool, at the lake, etc.. I've almost dropped my camcorder in a Koi pond, ducked splashes near the pool and been in the middle of a water fight while using it. (Dont judge me, Eugene. To me this is living on the edge.) The point is its more durable than other cameras. If, as an added bonus, you can catch your kids dog paddling beneath the water, well, what parent wouldn't want that shot? That's a much bigger market than the Cousteau heirs and Eugene. As for this just being a selling point, most of the features like special effects on cameras and camcorders are just that. They probably never get used, but they help sell the camera.

[ 05-26-2002: Message edited by: murk ]</p>
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post #128 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by murk:
<strong>OK, what if the waterproof part is not designed for Eugene to take on his next expedition to a deep sea volcano, but for the family around the pool, at the lake, etc.. I've almost dropped my camcorder in a Koi pond, ducked splashes near the pool and been in the middle of a water fight while using it. (Dont judge me, Eugene. To me this is living on the edge.) The point is its more durable than other cameras. If, as an added bonus, you can catch your kids dog paddling beneath the water, well, what parent wouldn't want that shot? That's a much bigger market than the Cousteau heirs and Eugene. As for this just being a selling point, most of the features like special effects on cameras and camcorders are just that. They probably never get used, but they help sell the camera.

[ 05-26-2002: Message edited by: murk ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly! I've got a cannon that is waterproof to I believe 18 feet, and I love it. If apple (or anyone, I don't care who) did that with a digital camera, it'd be sweet!
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post #129 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by dirk gently:
<strong>
The underwater ability could be a built-in marketing gimick more than an actual useful feature. I can see the commercials now.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Commercial idea submitted by murk:

Fade in. A wimpy guy steps out of a pool. The camera cuts to his trunks. They are filled with water and the water gushes out. Cut to the door of the posh hotel he is at. The door opens, and out walks a bevy of Sports Illustrated swimsuit models in skimpy bikinis. As the first model walks past the wimpy guy, she looks down at his trunks. She laughs and asks, "Is that a Lucida in your trunks, or are you just happy to see us?" The guy reaches into his trunks and pulls out the tube shaped Lucida camera and starts shooting photos of the models. Cut to a through the lens view was the models pose for him. Fade to Apple logo.

[ 05-26-2002: Message edited by: murk ]</p>
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post #130 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by murk:
<strong>

Commercial idea submitted by murk:

Fade in. A wimpy guy steps out of a pool. The camera cuts to his trunks.....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually you know it would prolly be of some guy standing in the pool shooting pictures of his kid swimming around and having fun. Most of the audience is thinking "what nitwit gets in the pool with a camcorder" (and the fun part is when he ducks under water and shoots some footage). then as everyone is toweling off he hooks up to the iMac and sucks the footage into iMovie. Fade to Apple Logo

If it was reasonably priced I'd buy one. (It'd go great with a Superdrive Mac and iMovie)
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post #131 of 390
Just a thought (perhaps already expressed)...

When the iPod came out: a) no one thought for a second Apple would really do an MP3 player. b) iPod, as an MP3 player did not really blow the competition away in any ONE dimension (well...maybe the FireWire). Not size (there are others as small). Not in capacity. Not in price. What they DID do is to combinae ALL of this together in ONE package...small size/weight...large capacity...fast txfr...easy to use...integrattion w/iTunes...fair price (considering all you get).

So...do the same with "iCamera" (or whatever...supposing this is even true)...

- reduce the size (or at least streamline the design)...and make the design incredible (yeah right...like Apple could do THAT.)
- increase the capacity
- add FireWire
- make it incredibly easy to use (yeah right...like Apple could do THAT.)
- integrate w/QuickTime, iMovie and iPhoto.
- price it fairly (but not cheaply)

There's your product.
post #132 of 390
I don't know... I have a canon digital elph... and it's small, takes acceptable pictures, I have a 256MB flash card for it that holds hundreds of pictures on the highest resolution, it can record video, and it's tiny. It *is* USB based, but it integrates flawlessly with iPhoto already.

I wouldn't be surprised if Apple built a digital camera, but really, the Elph already has everything I need in a consumer digital camera. I used to have a Rio 800 before the iPod, and I always wanted more storage space... but with the Elph, really, how many pictures do I need to carry around with me? the 256MB flash cards aren't that pricey, and hold tons of pictures.

my two cents...
post #133 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>
Buy a Rolex submariner
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nope--that money is hold for ├╝berMac
Apple Computer, Inc.

AKA the Microsoft R&D Department
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post #134 of 390
What's the lowest price Apple could offer it for if it had a Foveon? Would it be too much? What if it takes the place both of a high end consumer camcorder and a high end still digital camera? Would you pay more for this combination?
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post #135 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by Derrick 61:
<strong>

Nope--that money is hold for ├╝berMac </strong><hr></blockquote>

Congratulations you are a true Apple-insider
post #136 of 390
If they make a camera, very few people will really care if it is waterproof, and honestly does it really matter if it has a hard drive? Why not a digital camera that stores images on very cheap digital video tape of the type camcorders use? Makes a lot more sense than using a hard drive. What about Firewire on a damn camera. It is annoying as hell to dl off of a USB camera a lot of large pictures.
post #137 of 390
Murk, that just wouldn't be worth it, and it wouldn't imagine what kind of concessions Apple would have to make to add the functionality. It just makes so much more sense to make a cheap plastic housing as Canon and Nikon have done. And like I said, submersibility is highly exaggerated most of the time. This camera's going to need a battery slot and a card slot. It's also going to need a FireWire or USB port...possibly video out and such...If it's going to do video, it's also going to need a microphone...Don't you see how impossible a task this is going to be?

---

And regarding the Foveon vs Bayer pattern images, good god no, Matsu. Just look at photos of chain-link fences or guys in patterned suits/shirts. Look at any photo where lines of detail are necessary. You'll see all kinds of off colors...yellow, blue, purple...

Now check out the sheer detail in the Foveon images. Check out the crispness of the power lines in the foggy shot, or the veins in the flower...or the fur on the cat.

Your assertion that bayer pattern imagers are equally impressive is ludicrous. There's a reason why Sigma must charge &gt;$3000 for its SD9 while Canon and Nikon are finally able to break into the sub $2000 level with their offerings.

Now given a body made by Canon, Pentax or Nikon coupled with the Foveon, and I would snap one up in a heartbeat.

[ 05-26-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #138 of 390
Hi,

don't know if anyone can check who owns this address <a href="http://www.glove.org" target="_blank">www.glove.com</a>

interesting.....

[ 05-26-2002: Message edited by: Ape_Man ]</p>
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post #139 of 390
[code] Domain Name: GLOVE.COM
Registrar: TUCOWS, INC.
Whois Server: whois.opensrs.net
Referral URL: <a href="http://www.opensrs.org" target="_blank">http://www.opensrs.org</a>
Name Server: AUTH01.NS.TWISTER.COM
Name Server: AUTH02.NS.TWISTER.COM
Updated Date: 05-nov-2001</pre><hr></blockquote>
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post #140 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by Ape_Man:
<strong>Hi,

don't know if anyone can check who owns this address <a href="http://www.glove.org" target="_blank">www.glove.com</a>

interesting.....

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Domain Name: GLOVE.COM
Registrar: TUCOWS, INC.
Whois Server: whois.opensrs.net
Referral URL: <a href="http://www.opensrs.org" target="_blank">http://www.opensrs.org</a>
Name Server: AUTH01.NS.TWISTER.COM
Name Server: AUTH02.NS.TWISTER.COM
Updated Date: 05-nov-2001

And?? :confused:

J :cool:
post #141 of 390
Foveon sounds all well and good now, but you should wait untill you can see a real image. Yes, the stuff floating around the net look great, but it is no doubt taken under ideal conditions, and you don't know for sure how much manipulation they've recieved. Even simple cropping/resizing may take distort your impression of how much resolution is really available.

I certainly didn't mean that a pro/consumer digital created such perfect images (maybe an e20N), but I'll bet that any of the new 6+ MP pro Digital SLR's compete. You can see the results from these cameras all over the net, independently tested, published in magazines, working in the hands of professionals.

Foveon sounds like a worthy concept. But untill we have people really using them, we don't know. So far 'big' (pro, not the tiny 2/3" consumer sensors) Bayer pattern sensor has shown very good light gathering and dynamic shooting abilities (many of the sports pages are now shot in digital, and for print publication no less!)

You should wait untill a few people who know what they're doing have had a chance to use it extensively before you declare it the greatest thing out there.
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post #142 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>Murk, that just wouldn't be worth it, and it wouldn't imagine what kind of concessions Apple would have to make to add the functionality. It just makes so much more sense to make a cheap plastic housing as Canon and Nikon have done. And like I said, submersibility is highly exaggerated most of the time. This camera's going to need a battery slot and a card slot. It's also going to need a FireWire or USB port...possibly video out and such...If it's going to do video, it's also going to need a microphone...Don't you see how impossible a task this is going to be?

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was hoping no one would bring up the ports and the microphone. I knew it would shoot down the whole waterproof thing. Ah, well, even if I can't put it in my swim trunks, I'd be interested if it was both an excellent still camera and a video camcorder in one.
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post #143 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>&lt;other stuff snipped&gt;

You should wait untill a few people who know what they're doing have had a chance to use it extensively before you declare it the greatest thing out there.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The link I posted was to a professional photographer's website. He's been using a Foveon imager based protoype for while now.

Anyway, I've seen plenty of photos from the new crop of pro SLRs. They're certainly nice. I want a D100 myself, but they don't compare.

Just look at these resolution charts and see for yourself:
<a href="http://www.dpreview.com/articles/nikond100/page12.asp" target="_blank">http://www.dpreview.com/articles/nikond100/page12.asp</a>

You see all those colors coming from a black & white subject? This does not happen with the Foveon imager... Also notice the weird dot/artifacts in the Canon shot.

Look at the blatantly obvious moire pattern in the center of the D1x res. chart image...the circle. Look at the diagonal resolution chart...nasty!

These additional colors really hurt the maximum detail these cameras can put out.

Here's a crop from the a res chart photo taken with a Foveon based camera...by Phil Askey, the guy who runs <a href="http://www.dpreview.com" target="_blank">www.dpreview.com</a> :
<a href="http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp" target="_blank">http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp</a>

The Foveon CCD isn't some legend or myth...it is very real.

EDIT: no external links to dpreview images...

[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #144 of 390
The glove?

Can you say, handjob?

SethMonster
post #145 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by Bigc:
<strong>Am I missing something. If I buy 100 macs, I get 100 OS X disks. I guess when the next upgrade comes I only have to pay for one disk to update the 100 machines. However, I can update all of the machines over the net for free anyway. So apple is offering free OS upgrades from now on?? Oh boy....

So what's the deal or am I just tired.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you remember, Apple charges for any OS update ending in a 0 or a 5. And has done so since 7.5 If you bought Mac OS X 10.0 you can upgrade clear to the current version without paying. Popular opinion has been that the next version will be 10.2 Don't fool yourselves. It could just as easily be 10.5 and it would require a purchase to upgrade.
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post #146 of 390
Those Foveon images are probably the crispest photos I've ever seen. I'm definitely waiting for one of these babies...
post #147 of 390
Whoa - there may be something in this rumour...

<a href="http://www.foveon.net/X3_vps.html" target="_blank">http://www.foveon.net/X3_vps.html</a>

- essentially, the foveon chip can combine pixels into groups - super-pixels - thus scaling the resolution instantly to something a DV format can handle. In essence, your high res still camera can instantly become a high quality (but lower res) video camera. This also reduces the s/n ratio, allowing better low-light photography.

The best bit:
<strong>
"And since the sizing of pixels can be done in an instant, a Foveon X3 image sensor can capture a high-resolution still photo in the midst of recording video."</strong>

[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Gee4orce ]</p>
post #148 of 390
I'm confused.

DVD video is 500 lines horizontal isn't it? We've had CMOS sensors for about six dollars capable of that for years now..

I don't want to pretend I know what I'm talking about so any explination of my ignorance would be welcome
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post #149 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by Gee4orce:
<strong>Whoa - there may be something in this rumour...

<a href="http://www.foveon.net/X3_vps.html" target="_blank">http://www.foveon.net/X3_vps.html</a>

- essentially, the foveon chip can combine pixels into groups - super-pixels - thus scaling the resolution instantly to something a DV format can handle. In essence, your high res still camera can instantly become a high quality (but lower res) video camera. This also reduces the s/n ratio, allowing better low-light photography.

The best bit:
[qb]
"And since the sizing of pixels can be done in an instant, a Foveon X3 image sensor can capture a high-resolution still photo in the midst of recording video."</strong>

[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Gee4orce ][/QB]<hr></blockquote>

if nothing else, maybe someone should forward this link to everyone and anyone at apple. this has SERIOUS ooh-aah factor for us gadget *****s.
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post #150 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by rok:
<strong>

if nothing else, maybe someone should forward this link to everyone and anyone at apple. this has SERIOUS ooh-aah factor for us gadget *****s. </strong><hr></blockquote>

okay, why did the board bullet out my use of the word "w h o r e"??? geez... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
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post #151 of 390
Eugene -
I don't know anything about waterproofing or materials for underwater cameras, but why couldn't the Lucida use a saphire crystal lens cover (just like high end watches)? It would be very hard to scratch that even w/ salt and sand. Is its transmittance too low for high quality optics?
Thoth
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post #152 of 390
[quote] - essentially, the foveon chip can combine pixels into groups - super-pixels - thus scaling the resolution instantly to something a DV format can handle. In essence, your high res still camera can instantly become a high quality (but lower res) video camera. This also reduces the s/n ratio, allowing better low-light photography. <hr></blockquote>

Now this would be too cool if it put rudimentary Hi-Def into consumer hands... if it's recording to HardDrive, in native Quicktime. Of course iMovie won'twork with Hi-Def, though... so it's wishful thinking on my part I'm sure.
post #153 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by Thoth2:
<strong>Eugene -
I don't know anything about waterproofing or materials for underwater cameras, but why couldn't the Lucida use a saphire crystal lens cover (just like high end watches)? It would be very hard to scratch that even w/ salt and sand. Is its transmittance too low for high quality optics?
Thoth</strong><hr></blockquote>
A crystal saphir lenses for watch cost approximatively 100 $ it is resistant to scratch but not so resistant to shock.
post #154 of 390
[quote]Originally posted by walrusjb:
<strong>

Now this would be too cool if it put rudimentary Hi-Def into consumer hands... if it's recording to HardDrive, in native Quicktime. Of course iMovie won'twork with Hi-Def, though... so it's wishful thinking on my part I'm sure.</strong><hr></blockquote>

speaking of hard drive, i do want to point out that the IPOD now has a nice 10 gig plug-n-play hard drive and a firewire port on its top. can anyone else see inserting the ipod into the camera to act as a hot-swappable extra hard drive? we all wondered why the ipod got such a generic moniker. maybe it was that apple had bigger plans for it later on, not just for music (true, 10 gigs will fille up quick with video, but it can't be too long before there's a 20 gig version, and that's getting pretty nice for a casual consumer's home movies of washing their dog and their kid's birthday).

damn, i hope apple is reading this thread and taking some notes...
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Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

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post #155 of 390
It's still expensive and won't debut on any consumer camera for a while yet. The Nikon does have color artifacts but the canon does better. One interesting thing to note is that the Foveon is producing a 3+ MP image while other pro SLR's are producing a 6MP image. Down-converting a 6MP image to 3MP with a good scan utility would remove any Bayer artifacts and give just about the same resolution as the 3MP foveon, but not as much detail.

The advantages of the foveon would appear to be less processing, and easy video modes/fast (combined pixel) shooting modes (for more light sensitivity). Price currently goes to bayer pattern offerings. They do compare, and neither is truly a revelation in image quality untill they get about double the amount of pixels they now sport.

The best film scanners seem to be able to extract perciptible improvements in resolution at 4000dpi (which people are guessing is the limit of high quality film) So we can get 12-16MP images out of a Coolscan'd 35mm exposure. No digital SLR is really close to that yet. At least one more year for pro SLR's and at 3 more for pro/consumer. Scary to think what you could get out of a good scanner and a medium format film!!!

Untill then, you needn't fuss over the sensor pattern too much. However, when it gets REALLY CROWDED with pixels in those sensors, then the Foveon should have a distinct advantage. If it were cheap, I'd give it the advantage already, especially for combo-cameras (still+video)

they do compare, for now. That's all I meant, for the price bayer's aren't doing too badly.

[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]

[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
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post #156 of 390
the prospect of 'lucida' has already been discussed <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001656" target="_blank">here</a> - just ignore the original post and skip down to the meaty discussion.
post #157 of 390
Flovion... Not likely. It just barely went into production. Besides, With those apps that apple has already released and those apps that apple and Steve have hinted at. A super high end camera is not likely. Something more similar to <a href="http://www.americas.creative.com/products/product.asp?product=56&category=6&maincategory=6" target="_blank"> Creatives Video blaster </a> are more likely. They need a camera that can do decent still shots, stream video like a webcam and capture a little video, say about 40 to 45 minures worth. That could be done without a tape if a a 10 Gig ipod like drive were used. DV occupies 1 gig per 4.5 minutes of video. Firewire in a good probability. What if it could back up to an ipod. to allow additional shooting. Or if it clips onto an iPod for storage purposes. Further still, if offlineRT was used for data storage, then a 10 gig drive could hold 400 minutes of video.
post #158 of 390
What if the camera had a 10 GB HD, AND a G4 CPU so that one could encode using a QT codec on the fly? I don't know the compression offhand, but wouldn't that allow for HOURS of video footage to be stored on 10 GB? Would it be difficult to build a small mobo+CPU unit that was specialized at compressing DV on the fly in real time? Would such a beast even need a G4? Would a G3 work? Would the iPod's CPUs work?

EDIT: is that what you mean, plague bearer, by oflineRT?

[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Junkyard Dawg ]</p>
post #159 of 390
If it used OfflineRT, then the iPod's twin CPU combo would work fine. You really don't want to put a G4 in there if you can help it.

That sounds pretty likely. Even if it only had the 5GB drive, that's still a lot of photos and/or a lot of footage.
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post #160 of 390
Didn't anyone hear Senor Jobs mention "glove" during the Q&A session of the xServe introduction? Go check it out... apple.com/quicktime
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