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smart tags

post #1 of 40
Thread Starter 
With the release of XP, has anyone had to deal with smart tags f*ing up their web pages? I haven't the chance to mess around with XP so I don't know how they work. What's the best way to deal with M$'s taking over the internet tactics? TIA

On another note, I hate that I have to deal with this. My pages are done and I haven't needed to update them in a while. Now I've got to dig out the dreamweaver and bbedit and dust the pages off I'm running a site for psychological treatment and I don't want M$ telling my clients where to go to read about depression. They don't know what they're talking about. I do. Too bad people will not be able to distinguish after a what's what after a while. Maybe I should redirect all IE requests to an error page with links to Opera and Netscape...
post #2 of 40
Two things that I've heard, neither of which I can confirm to be true:

1)The is a tag you can add to your webpages that will disable smart tags.

2)Microsoft dropped smart tags (for now at least) at the last minute from industry pressure...

Not sure though...
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post #3 of 40
I think MS turned them off by default.
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post #4 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by Sinewave:
<strong>I think MS turned them off by default.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Smart Tags are not present in WindowsXP or Internet Explorer 6. There is indeed a meta tag to disable them from working on your webpage if you want. Smart Tags are an option you can install with Office XP, with additional smart tag features downloadable from the net. Once you've enabled smart tags with OfficeXP it can interopt with IE6 to display the tags there. I absolutely love smart tags personally. I'm pissed that so many people made a stink about a product they don't understand. If apple had introduced it you'd be singing it's praises.
post #5 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by Eskimo:
<strong>

Smart Tags are not present in WindowsXP or Internet Explorer 6. There is indeed a meta tag to disable them from working on your webpage if you want. Smart Tags are an option you can install with Office XP, with additional smart tag features downloadable from the net. Once you've enabled smart tags with OfficeXP it can interopt with IE6 to display the tags there. I absolutely love smart tags personally. I'm pissed that so many people made a stink about a product they don't understand. If apple had introduced it you'd be singing it's praises.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The reason why people are making a stink about it is.. you shouldn't have to ADD html to turn them off. You should have to add to turn them on. Not only that they add things to your site that why may not want on there. Say a Linux page is writing a story about things that make XP suck. Microsoft uses smart tags to direct you to a page that talks about how Linux is un-american

It's basically MS changing your web page without your permission.

You should have to add something to your html to make it smart tags enabled. Not add something to your html so it wont work. Just like any other type of html tag.

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Sinewave ]</p>
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post #6 of 40
pardon the ignorance, but what are smart tags?
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post #7 of 40
"Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do." - Think Different
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"Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do." - Think Different
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post #8 of 40
IMHO - Smart Tags are stupid.
Why?
Well the two problems Jakob Nielsen sited come to mind.

"There is no doubt that "smart tags" are useful. There are just two problems with the implementation:

*\tUse of squiggly underlines as link anchors: in rich hypertext you don't want visible link anchors since they will clutter up the screen and reduce reading speed. When most things are linked, you don't need marks. Use a technique similar to HyperCards and display the anchors when the user holds down a modifier key.
*\tIf the link destinations are all Microsoft properties, then the feature obviously becomes an abuse of power. It is good for the browser to include hooks for implicit links, but users should subscribe to a variety of services for the destinations."

Here's another nay sayer...
<a href="http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20010607.html" target="_blank">http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20010607.html</a>
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post #9 of 40
So, if someone is writing an article about the agricultural industry, a mention of :"apple" takes people to apple's page.
post #10 of 40
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Eskimo:
<strong>

Smart Tags are not present in WindowsXP or Internet Explorer 6. There is indeed a meta tag to disable them from working on your webpage if you want. Smart Tags are an option you can install with Office XP, with additional smart tag features downloadable from the net. Once you've enabled smart tags with OfficeXP it can interopt with IE6 to display the tags there. I absolutely love smart tags personally. I'm pissed that so many people made a stink about a product they don't understand. If apple had introduced it you'd be singing it's praises.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Eskimo,
Regardless of whose technology it was, I'd still be upset. There's alot of useless, or worse, hurtful, information out on the web regarding psychological disorders and if people are coming to my site, where I'm using proven methods of treatment for some guidance, I don't want anyone mucking that up. Hell, it could be Aaron Beck himself, and I'd still be pissed. Otherwise, they could be useful, but it should be the designer of the website that decides that, as Sinewave said. I should choose to turn them on, not have to remember to turn them off.
post #11 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by Eskimo:
<strong>I'm pissed that so many people made a stink about a product they don't understand.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh I understood them. I understood them to be a shameless ploy by Microsoft to edit other people's web pages to insert links to Microsoft's services.


[quote]Originally posted by Eskimo:
<strong>If apple had introduced it you'd be singing it's praises.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If Apple had done it it would have been to link to sites that the user would want. Not a shameless ploy to insert links to apple.com
post #12 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

If Apple had done it it would have been to link to sites that the user would want. Not a shameless ploy to insert links to apple.com</strong><hr></blockquote>

Like the Sherlock banners right? If Apple did this they would be using it just like MS tried to.
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post #13 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by Sinewave:
<strong>

Like the Sherlock banners right? If Apple did this they would be using it just like MS tried to.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well look at it. The banner will come from the search engine's site. It will not be an Apple banner IF the site has a banner to go there. If there is no banner from the site then Apple puts one in.

Also look at why the banner is there at all. Apple didn't want them there. But the search sites were worried about losing hits on the banners. So Apple put them in. So you see Apple did not include them for their own promotion but rather to appease other sites. Given a choice there would be no banners at all.

I doubt you can see the difference.
post #14 of 40
Scott while I agree that Apple did it for the search sites. When you are not doing a search guess what banner ads pop up? Yup that's right Apple's . I am just saying you seem to thing Apple is this company that it's only concern is the customer.. and they don't do bad things! Apple has it's own interest in mind too.
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post #15 of 40
Sherlock is Apple's product, and it doesn't interfere with the results. Smart Tags modify websites. There's a difference.
post #16 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by MacAgent:
<strong>Sherlock is Apple's product, and it doesn't interfere with the results. Smart Tags modify websites. There's a difference.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again.. I wasn't arguing that. You somehow think Apple does or wouldn't do anything sneaky or bad towards the consumer. When it has many times.
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post #17 of 40
Stop posting so much or you'll be the new applenut.
post #18 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by MacAgent:
<strong>Stop posting so much or you'll be the new applenut. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey I am not whining and complaining am I?
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post #19 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by MacAgent:
<strong>Sherlock is Apple's product, and it doesn't interfere with the results. Smart Tags modify websites. There's a difference.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Smart Tags do not modify a website. The source HTML is not altered. You as an HTML author do NOT have say in how your site is interpreted. A browser is free to interpret your code as it wishes and display it to the user in the manner he/she wishes. You control the content of your website, not the context in which it is digested by the browsers.

Minute Maid makes an orange juice commercial with popeye and bluto in order to sell more OJ. Some people interpret the ad to think it is a gay/lesbian recruitment vehicle. Was that the intent of the author? Doubtful, but the audience is free to interpret a creative work however they wish even if it is contrary to the author's intent.

[quote]
I should choose to turn them on, not have to remember to turn them off.
<hr></blockquote>

They are off by default on the user's machines. If they have enabled them then that is their choice. All you have to do is paste a one line piece of html code into your source, it's not that rigorous.


[quote]
Oh I understood them. I understood them to be a shameless ploy by Microsoft to edit other people's web pages to insert links to Microsoft's services.
<hr></blockquote>

Then you do not in fact understand smart tags. It was an open medium by which any company can provide their own set of smart tags. You can choose which ones to install and uninstall on your computer. Personally I use ones from ESPN and the Wall Street Journal.
post #20 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by Eskimo:
<strong>
Smart Tags do not modify a website. The source HTML is not altered. You as an HTML author do NOT have say in how your site is interpreted. A browser is free to interpret your code as it wishes and display it to the user in the manner he/she wishes. You control the content of your website, not the context in which it is digested by the browsers.<hr></blockquote></strong> They are adding content and links to your content that you didn't want there. No they don't have to right to do such a thing. As a matter of fact THAT is what made MS turn it off by default.. and THAT is the reason you don't hear MS pushing it anymore. What your saying is.. I browser and take a bunch of words in your html and change them during display.. and as long as the html is the same it's ok? I think not.
[quote]<strong>
Minute Maid makes an orange juice commercial with popeye and bluto in order to sell more OJ. Some people interpret the ad to think it is a gay/lesbian recruitment vehicle. Was that the intent of the author? Doubtful, but the audience is free to interpret a creative work however they wish even if it is contrary to the author's intent.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
HARDLY the same thing bub. And BTW you watch the Daily Show too much. It isn't REAL NEWS. It's FAKE news. Your TV isn't changing the way the commercial is being displayed. It still has the intentions of the advertisement company from the start. If you interpret it wrong your not hurting any one else from your ignorance.
[quote]<strong>
They are off by default on the user's machines. If they have enabled them then that is their choice. All you have to do is paste a one line piece of html code into your source, it's not that rigorous.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
The point is you shouldn't HAVE TO turn anything off just to get something not to work. It should be OFF by default. If a site wants smart tags then it should be able to ADD html code to make it work. Like any other HTML addon.. like Flash or QT or javascript. MS knows if they made it that way.. Smart Tags would never be used. There are web pages 100s of pages long. A web admin shouldn't have to modify ALL those page just to turn something off that shouldn't be there in the first place. MS wants ALL sites to have them. It's a real shitty thing to do . And MS got bitchslapped in the press cause of it. That is the reason it's turned off by default.
[quote][qt]
Then you do not in fact understand smart tags. It was an open medium by which any company can provide their own set of smart tags. You can choose which ones to install and uninstall on your computer. Personally I use ones from ESPN and the Wall Street Journal.
<hr></blockquote>[/qt]
And it you don't provide MS with any set.. guess what happens. Suddenly your favorite linux page has links to MS's web page about Linux being communist every time the word linux is displayed.

No thanks.
Stop being a MS apologist.

[ 11-22-2001: Message edited by: Sinewave ]</p>
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post #21 of 40
No, believe it or not you have no right to tell me how I can interpret/filter/modify the way I view your website. I can choose to diplay it in the language of my choice, I can choose to filter banner ads off your site, I can change the colors of your text/links. I have no contract explicit or implied to view your content in any manner other than that which I choose. Just like I can use my Tivo to strip commercials out of the TV I watch and fast forward thru boring parts of shows.

I do like the Daily show, but it isn't fake news for the most part. They simply take real people/events and put a sarcastic/cynical/farsical spin on them. Those interviews are real with real people. Believe it or not there are some pretty weird people in the world. Of course they are probally editing all the questions they ask in post-production to make it sound even funnier.
[quote]Originally posted by Sinewave:
[QB][/qt]
[quote]And it you don't provide MS with any set.. guess what happens. <hr></blockquote>

Whoa, a novel idea. A company that releases a product will have it default to their webpage. You ever seen a Dell computer? Guess where it's default homepage is in IE, OMG it's dellnet! And netscape navigator? OMG it's netscape's netcenter thingie! The horror, imagine default settings leading you to sites that adequetly perform the 'smart' functions. It's a Microsoft product, they have every right to default to services they also happen to own. What are they expected to point to competitor's websites just because they are "evil" Microsoft and not Apple the company out to save the world? They do provide an easy path to download alternative packages for smart tags and even link to them off their own site.

[quote]
Stop being a MS apologist.

<hr></blockquote>

There is no need to apologize for Microsoft, since there is nothing wrong with Smart Tags. Stop being such an alarmist just because it's Microsoft.
post #22 of 40
No your being a apologist. Why is it that even Windows users hated this? You can change the look, the banner ads.. the text color etc.. but you CANT change the CONTENT. Smart tags was basically changing the content.

Let me ask you this. If wasn't so bad why did MS brush it under the rug and turn them off by default?

MS doesn't do that too easily. And for the record.. your the only person that I have ever met IRL or on the net that thought smart tags where a good idea.

Every one else must be wrong!
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post #23 of 40
Let me give you a example. Say you want to research bible text

In the beginning was the <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/office/word/default.htm" target="_blank">word</a>, and the <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/office/word/default.htm" target="_blank">word</a> was with God, and the <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/office/word/default.htm" target="_blank">word</a> was God."

Do you see how silly that is?
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post #24 of 40
For the record: I thought Smart Tags were a great idea, and wish they were still around.
post #25 of 40
[quote]Oh I understood them. I understood them to be a shameless ploy by Microsoft to edit other people's web pages to insert links to Microsoft's services.<hr></blockquote>



The default set linked to MS services. The ones provided by ESPN or anyone with an interest and a text editor linked to wherever the author determined. Need I point out that it's purely up to the user whether they use the default set, ESPN's or someone else's Smart Tags?

[quote]If Apple had done it it would have been to link to sites that the user would want. Not a shameless ploy to insert links to apple.com <hr></blockquote>

Oh holy Apple! Come save us from the evil that is capitalism. We all know you don't do things to help make you more money, or get people to use your software and services.

[quote]Sherlock is Apple's product, and it doesn't interfere with the results. Smart Tags modify websites. There's a difference.<hr></blockquote>

They *don't* modify the HTML. They modify the display of the HTML to inform users of the availability of more information.

[quote]You can change the look, the banner ads.. the text color etc.. but you CANT change the CONTENT.<hr></blockquote>

The weren't changing content. They were formatting certain key-words with a subtle dotted underline to let you know your computer could give you more information about them.

[quote]Let me ask you this. If wasn't so bad why did MS brush it under the rug and turn them off by default?<hr></blockquote>

Because people threw a hissy fit. Most of those people had no experience with Smart Tags, other than what they had read in certain news paper articles. Ironically, those articles were written by people who also had no experience with Smart Tags.

[quote]Every one else must be wrong!<hr></blockquote>

Or ill-informed, as evidenced by this thread.

[quote]In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God."<hr></blockquote>

So, Mr Smart Tag man, why don't you tell me what the default set of Smart Tags was and what they linked to?

Now, someone who's vehemently against Smart Tags, explain to me why I shouldn't be able to use them if I want to?
post #26 of 40
[quote]<strong>
The default set linked to MS services. The ones provided by ESPN or anyone with an interest and a text editor linked to wherever the author determined. Need I point out that it's purely up to the user whether they use the default set, ESPN's or someone else's Smart Tags?
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Yes and 90% of the web would probably be using MS's default set. You know the mom and pop web pages.. web pages teens make etc. They don't know what to do to turn smart tags off. They usually use WYSIWYG editors. Stop being silly.
[quote]<strong>
They *don't* modify the HTML. They modify the display of the HTML to inform users of the availability of more information.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
No but they modify the web page in a way that is against what the author originally intended. It's also a quick and dirty way to get free advertising without having to pay the author. What if you owned a web server that you put your web page on and MS decided to just start putting up banners? It's basically the same thing.
[quote]<strong>
The weren't changing content. They were formatting certain key-words with a subtle dotted underline to let you know your computer could give you more information about them.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
And that IS changing the content. That is changing the original idea. Say your writing about how Linux is great and Windows sucks. Every time the word Windows shows up.. it takes you to a link about how the Open Source movement is Un-American. It's free advertisement for MS.. and lets them spread their BS. THAT is the purpose of smart tags for MS.
[quote]<strong>
Because people threw a hissy fit. Most of those people had no experience with Smart Tags, other than what they had read in certain news paper articles. Ironically, those articles were written by people who also had no experience with Smart Tags.
<hr></blockquote></strong> Oh BS.. these people knew EXACTLY what smart tags where. They knew EXACTLY what they did. They also knew EXACTLY what MS's purpose for them was too.
Most of the bitching wasn't about smart tags.. but having to go and modify your web page so they WOULDN'T show up.. instead of modifying them page so they will. You want your page to use smart tags? great add a piece of code to do so. If not you shouldn't have to bother. It's just more of MS trying to FORCE it's standards on everyone.
[quote]<strong>
So, Mr Smart Tag man, why don't you tell me what the default set of Smart Tags was and what they linked to?
<hr></blockquote></strong>
I was giving you a example on HOW they could be used.
[quote]<strong>
Now, someone who's vehemently against Smart Tags, explain to me why I shouldn't be able to use them if I want to?
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Oh I think you SHOULD be able to use them! And I think any page that wants them used SHOULD be able to do so as well. My point is I don't think you should have to modify your web pages so they DON'T show up. Every other non-standard html feature makes you add html to make it work except smart tags.

Ducky are you saying you don't think MS had any "hidden" motives for smart tags? Can you honestly say that MS wouldn't use these to spread more of their FUD and propaganda? If so your being a blind zealot. While I can see how some use of smart tags would be good if they was standardized by a company that doesn't have anything to gain by it... having to Modify your html so these don't show up is wrong. It's not a web standard.. you should have to ADD html to your page to make smart tags work. Not the other way around. This was just another way of MS trying to control something. This time it was web content.

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Sinewave ]</p>
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post #27 of 40
[quote]Yes and 90% of the web would probably be using MS's default set. You know the mom and pop web pages.. web pages teens make etc.<hr></blockquote>

You've just demonstrated your ignorance, yet again. The webpages mom and pop make do not determine what Smart Tags are running on my computer.

However, if you're trying to say that 90% of IE users will just leave the default Smart Tag state enabled, I'd have to agree with you. 90% of the people who use IE6 would probably have never turned Smart Tags on. Of the people that did, I doubt many of them would use the default set. How many people have the default homepage set for their browser? Or the default background image? These things are very easy to change.

[quote]No but they modify the web page in a way that is against what the author originally intended.<hr></blockquote>

It doesn't matter what the author originally intended. I can make my browser format the webpage any way I want. HTML and CSS are merely recommendations for *how* things look. If I choose to use a browser that allows me to see what keywords have relevant information, that's my perogative. The author that whines about it can either suck it up and deal with it, or choose a different medium for delivering their content.

Even then, that only works until I get out my highlighter and Sharpie.

[quote]What if you owned a web server that you put your web page on and MS decided to just start putting up banners? It's basically the same thing. <hr></blockquote>

It's not even close to the same thing. Smart Tags do nothing to modify content, nor do they change what's delivered to the browser. Users can easily choose to leave the Smart Tags off, use a different browser, or replace the default tags.

The key difference you're missing here, is it's the users' choice. It doesn't matter what the server sends, if the user chooses to change what they see, it doesn't matter what web authors think of it.

[quote]And that IS changing the content. That is changing the original idea.<hr></blockquote>

Not at all. Any idea presented in a webpage stays the same. If I want the browser to format the text in such a way to tell me it can show more information, it doesn't change the meaning of whatever was written.

[quote]Every time the word Windows shows up.. it takes you to a link about how the Open Source movement is Un-American.<hr></blockquote>

Only if I've chosen to allow the word "Windows" to take me to such a link.

[quote]It's free advertisement for MS.. and lets them spread their BS. THAT is the purpose of smart tags for MS.<hr></blockquote>



It's not free advertisement. Even if the default set was non-neutral and generic, it's up to the individual user what they allow to happen with their browser. If the user sees ads, it's the users choice.

[quote]Oh BS.. these people knew EXACTLY what smart tags where. They knew EXACTLY what they did.<hr></blockquote>

Obviously not. Assuming they knew what they were talking about, it seems that you'd know what you were talking about since your experiences are based completely off of what you've read. That isn't the case.

[quote]Most of the bitching wasn't about smart tags.. but having to go and modify your web page so they WOULDN'T show up.. instead of modifying them page so they will.<hr></blockquote>

Which just demonstrates they are completely missing the point. Using a meta tag to turn on Smart Tags on a page by page basis completely defeats the purpose. I, as the user, should be able to turn them on and have them appear on any webpage. Indeed, I could. I could even override the meta tag that disables them.

However, it was *my* choice. It's always my choice when I'm looking at a page. I can see the content however I want, no matter what the suggestions are.

[quote]It's just more of MS trying to FORCE it's standards on everyone. <hr></blockquote>

It's a feature MS thought their users might like. It's a feature that was disabled by default. I fail to see how that's forcing anything on anyone.

[quote]I was giving you a example on HOW they could be used.<hr></blockquote>

So what WERE the default tags? You can whine all you want about how they COULD be used, but it's just meaningless drivel.

[quote]Oh I think you SHOULD be able to use them! And I think any page that wants them used SHOULD be able to do so as well.<hr></blockquote>

I fail to see why I should care how a page "wants" me to see it. If I want to use Smart Tags, I should be able to, as you just said. Ironically, that's exactly the way they worked just before they were removed. I had an nice button in the toolbar that allowed me to turn them on and off.

[quote]My point is I don't think you should have to modify your web pages so they DON'T show up.<hr></blockquote>

I don't think you should be able to do ANYTHING to keep them from showing up. That's my choice, not the page author's.

[quote]Every other non-standard html feature makes you add html to make it work except smart tags. <hr></blockquote>

This isn't an HTML feature. Calling it one is ignorant at best, stupid at worst. This is an IE feature, much like the email client in NS is a feature of that particular browser. It's a feature that some people want, and some people don't want to use, just like any other feature.

[quote]Ducky are you saying you don't think MS had any "hidden" motives for smart tags?<hr></blockquote>

Who gives a rat's ass what MS's motives were? It's a feature I liked. I found it useful. If MS makes money off a feature I enjoy, that's fine by me.

[quote]Can you honestly say that MS wouldn't use these to spread more of their FUD and propaganda?<hr></blockquote>

It doesn't matter what MS would use it for. *I* would leave the default set disabled and use my own, or another provider's that has some relevance to me. This is *my* choice, not MS's, not the web authors, and not a whiny and ignorant media's.

[quote]It's not a web standard.. you should have to ADD html to your page to make smart tags work.<hr></blockquote>

It's not even related to the web. It can be used with web pages, just as it can be used with Office Documents, emails, etc. There is no standard that would, or should, apply to Smart Tags.

[quote]This was just another way of MS trying to control something.<hr></blockquote>

This was another way MS provided for me to control something. If you think different, you're a blind zealot.
post #28 of 40
MS wants ALL sites to have them. It's a real shitty thing to do . And MS got bitchslapped in the press cause of it. That is the reason it's turned off by default.
It was always turned off by default.<a href="http://browserwatch.internet.com/news/stories2001/news-20010611-1.html" target="_blank">link</a>

I did like the feature and hope more companies support it in the future.
post #29 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by RubberDucky:
<strong>
You've just demonstrated your ignorance, yet again. The webpages mom and pop make do not determine what Smart Tags are running on my computer.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Did I ever say they did? When did I say that?? let me explain it to you s l o w l y. Most people who make Web pages don't code by hand. Most use WYSIWYG page makers. Liek Frontpage. Most have no idea what to do to turn "smart tags" off if they don't want them . Understand? That is why you shouldn't have to ADD html to turn them off. Talk about demonstrating ignorance. You missed my whole point.
<strong> [quote]
However, if you're trying to say that 90% of IE users will just leave the default Smart Tag state enabled, I'd have to agree with you. 90% of the people who use IE6 would probably have never turned Smart Tags on. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree. I never said otherwise. In some developers versions of XP smart tags WHERE turned on by default till people complained to MS.
<strong> [quote]Of the people that did, I doubt many of them would use the default set. How many people have the default homepage set for their browser? Or the default background image? These things are very easy to change.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes they are.. but it doesn't matter what "set" they use. Most of the people who design web pages DON'T want them. And shouldn't have to ADD anything to their html to get rid of them. Esp tags that are MS specific and not standard.
<strong> [quote]
It doesn't matter what the author originally intended. I can make my browser format the webpage any way I want. HTML and CSS are merely recommendations for *how* things look. If I choose to use a browser that allows me to see what keywords have relevant information, that's my perogative. The author that whines about it can either suck it up and deal with it, or choose a different medium for delivering their content.

Even then, that only works until I get out my highlighter and Sharpie.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Most web pages are copyrighted. If you steal text from one and post it in your page you can indeed get sued. Esp if you steal their words and add to them. Again.. it's basically advertising on some ones site without paying for it. If MS or whoever wants to pay a web site to use smart tags that directs them to a link of their then cool.
[quote]<strong>
It's not even close to the same thing. Smart Tags do nothing to modify content, nor do they change what's delivered to the browser. Users can easily choose to leave the Smart Tags off, use a different browser, or replace the default tags.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Yes it is the same thing. They are using YOUR web space that YOU payed for to use YOUR content to advertise for FREE without your permission. Why can't you seem to understand this?
[quote]<strong>
The key difference you're missing here, is it's the users' choice. It doesn't matter what the server sends, if the user chooses to change what they see, it doesn't matter what web authors think of it.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
The user isn't changing it.. the program is. A company is. You know at one time you wasn't able to turn off smart tags? a earlier build of XP was that way. Then MS made you able to turn them off. Then MS turned them off by default. If their practice wasn't show "shady" MS wouldn't have did such a thing.
[quote]<strong>
Not at all. Any idea presented in a webpage stays the same. If I want the browser to format the text in such a way to tell me it can show more information, it doesn't change the meaning of whatever was written.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
So your telling me that if a Linux page has a anti-MS site up and MS USES that page to link it to one of their "Open Source is UnAmerican" propaganda pages that wont effect the meaning of whatever was written in the original Linux page? And you call ME ignorant.
<strong> [quote]
Only if I've chosen to allow the word "Windows" to take me to such a link.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So? the author of that page obviously didn't make that web page to advertise for MS that is for sure. And MS isn't paying them a dime in the process.
<strong> [quote]
It's not free advertisement. Even if the default set was non-neutral and generic, it's up to the individual user what they allow to happen with their browser. If the user sees ads, it's the users choice.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am not just talking about ads.. I am talking about articles.. advertisements don't have to be in a ad form son.
<strong> [quote]
Obviously not. Assuming they knew what they were talking about, it seems that you'd know what you were talking about since your experiences are based completely off of what you've read. That isn't the case.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Aah Mr. Assumption. Yes I have used XP yes I have seen the smart tag feature. Yes I have messed with it. Yes you just made yourself look like a moron.
<strong> [quote]
Which just demonstrates they are completely missing the point. Using a meta tag to turn on Smart Tags on a page by page basis completely defeats the purpose.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree.. MS wanted to make sure that any one not smart enough to turn them off as them enabled. Not the other way around. That is how they force their standards. Smart tags would just be another stupid MS only tag that no one used but a few sites. MS didn't want that.
[quote]<strong>
I, as the user, should be able to turn them on and have them appear on any webpage. Indeed, I could. I could even override the meta tag that disables them.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
And that is why people want it gotten rid of. It's MS taking a free ride on others expense.
[quote]<strong>
However, it was *my* choice. It's always my choice when I'm looking at a page. I can see the content however I want, no matter what the suggestions are.
<hr></blockquote></strong> Look in some of the html sources. It says any one changing content without permission is libel for lawsuits. In any page thats worth a darn. If you disable the meta tag you could indeed be sued.. no matter how far fetched it is.. it's NOT legal. Smart Tags don't change the HTML content.. but add to the page in a way the author wasn't intending without permission OR payment for their space.
[quote]<strong>
It's a feature MS thought their users might like. It's a feature that was disabled by default. I fail to see how that's forcing anything on anyone.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
No it's a feature MS thought they could get free advertisement and spread their FUD with. I don't recall MS having a poll on such a thing. Most people I know (yes even windows users) Think they are crap. Only the blind worship at the alter of MS try to defend them. And they are forcing standards on people. You either HAVE them enabled or you use a nonstandard html meta tag to turn them off. Forcing anyone that doesn't want them on their page to go and change ALL their web pages to turn something off that should require code to turn on.
[quote]<strong>
I fail to see why I should care how a page "wants" me to see it. If I want to use Smart Tags, I should be able to, as you just said.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Yes I think you should be able to use smart tags on pages that WANTS to use them. I think pages that WANT to use them should be able to add a meta tag to use them as well. And no that isn't "just as I said" you twisted it a bit son.
[quote]<strong>
Ironically, that's exactly the way they worked just before they were removed. I had an nice button in the toolbar that allowed me to turn them on and off.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Good! What does that have to do with web pages that don't want them and don't want to have to go through a huge web site and add meta tags to turn them off?
[quote]<strong>
I don't think you should be able to do ANYTHING to keep them from showing up. That's my choice, not the page author's.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Well I am sure all us web page makers are glad your not the person making that decision.
[quote]<strong>
This isn't an HTML feature. Calling it one is ignorant at best, stupid at worst. This is an IE feature, much like the email client in NS is a feature of that particular browser. It's a feature that some people want, and some people don't want to use, just like any other feature.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Oh oOh You busted me! Yes it is a html feature. IE ads html links to words son. And yes it's a non-standard IE feature that forces itself on web pages that doesn't have a special "turn that crap off" feature. It's just more of MS's bulling tactics.
[quote]<strong>
Who gives a rat's ass what MS's motives were? It's a feature I liked. I found it useful. If MS makes money off a feature I enjoy, that's fine by me.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
That may be fine by YOU.. but let me let you in on some information that will probably help you later on in life. You're not the only person that matters. Most people aren't paying for web space just so a company can use their page to advertise on it and not pay them. And MS is calling the GPL Un-American
[quote]<strong>
It doesn't matter what MS would use it for. *I* would leave the default set disabled and use my own, or another provider's that has some relevance to me. This is *my* choice, not MS's, not the web authors, and not a whiny and ignorant media's.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
It's all about you isn't it? Want *I* want..I see the brat syndrome popping up in you. It's not your choice to use someone's else's page they pay for to advertise for another company for free. Get it?
[quote]<strong>
It's not even related to the web.
<hr></blockquote></strong> Does AI have a retard emoticon?
[quote]<strong>
It can be used with web pages, just as it can be used with Office Documents, emails, etc. There is no standard that would, or should, apply to Smart Tags.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
I agree there should be NO standard. And there isn't cause Smart Tags have been ditched. Good riddance.

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Sinewave ]</p>
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post #30 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by xmoger:
<strong>MS wants ALL sites to have them. It's a real shitty thing to do . And MS got bitchslapped in the press cause of it. That is the reason it's turned off by default.
It was always turned off by default.<a href="http://browserwatch.internet.com/news/stories2001/news-20010611-1.html" target="_blank">link</a>

I did like the feature and hope more companies support it in the future.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It was in early developers versions. You couldn't even turn them off at the time. BTW I liked that article. Smart people

[quote]<strong>
The danger is that Web pages won't be displayed as how Web-site creators intended; they'd be displayed how Microsoft intends them to be displayed. Putting that level of power into the hands of a single corporation has been uniformly decried among Web observers, who say that Microsoft could cut deals with competitors to divert customers; for instance, Smart Tags could be used by Microsoft to divert customers from a GM Web site to Ford. Microsoft says that the feature will be turned off -- but present -- when Windows XP ships in October.

"It's creepy, it's bad, it's none of their damn business," said Userland's Dave Winer in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. "It's a free-speech issue. They don't have the right to modify my work."
<hr></blockquote></strong>
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post #31 of 40
[quote]Most have no idea what to do to turn "smart tags" off if they don't want them . <hr></blockquote>

Like I've said repeatedly, the author has no control over how I view their page. They can offer suggestions, but it's up to me what it ultimately looks like when I finally see it.

You shouldn't even be able to add HTML to turn them off. It shouldn't be the web page author's choice. The information should be presented to me in whatever format I choose.

[quote]Yes they are.. but it doesn't matter what "set" they use. Most of the people who design web pages DON'T want them. And shouldn't have to ADD anything to their html to get rid of them. Esp tags that are MS specific and not standard.
<hr></blockquote>

Again, I don't care what they want. I care what I want. I want Smart Tags when I view a page.

BTW: It's a meta tag that's used to disable tags on a page. Need I point out, that's exactly the type of thing meta tags are designed for?

[quote]Most web pages are copyrighted. If you steal text from one and post it in your page you can indeed get sued.<hr></blockquote>

Sure you can. That's irrelevant to the entire debate. Are you trying to be thick, or is it easy?

[quote]If MS or whoever wants to pay a web site to use smart tags that directs them to a link of their then cool.<hr></blockquote>

It's not MS or the webpages using Smart Tags. Should I say it 400 more times? I can do whatever I want to a web-page while I'm looking at it. I can apply my own stylesheet, filter out certain words, re-arrange everything, make HTML links to porn sites, make forms not work, disable images, disably popups, translate them, turn them backwards... Is there a meta tag to disable any of that?

[quote]Yes it is the same thing. They are using YOUR web space that YOU payed for to use YOUR content to advertise for FREE without your permission.<hr></blockquote>

BS. *I* am running a program that enhances my web browsing experience. *I* am allowing that program to highlight keywords that have relevance to me. *I* can choose which are highlighted, and which aren't. MS has nothing to do with it, they've just given me an additional tool I can use while browsing the web.

[quote]The user isn't changing it.. the program is.<hr></blockquote>

Sure the program is... who controls the program? Not MS. Not the weather. The user.

[quote] You know at one time you wasn't able to turn off smart tags?<hr></blockquote>

You're wrong. Congratulations on further demonstrating your ignorance. In the earliest build of WinXP (with Smart Tags) they were on by default. It tooks 3 clicks to turn them off. Later, they added a tool bar button.

[quote]If their practice wasn't show "shady" MS wouldn't have did such a thing. <hr></blockquote>

MS would have "did" such a thing if the public outcry was such to taint the image of a rather minor feature.

[quote]So your telling me that if a Linux page has a anti-MS site up and MS USES that page to link it to one of their "Open Source is UnAmerican" propaganda pages that wont effect the meaning of whatever was written in the original Linux page? And you call ME ignorant.<hr></blockquote>

No, I'm telling you that MS CAN'T use any page to link to one of their propaganda sites. They can, however, provide me with the means of doing so.

[quote]So? the author of that page obviously didn't make that web page to advertise for MS that is for sure. <hr></blockquote>

Once again, it doesn't matter what the author wanted. If the author wanted that much control over how I see their web page, it would never go up on a server. Instead, they would keep it in a sealed glass room, with one monitor set to the perfect resolution, running the optimum browser, and only allow people to see it during normal business hours. Even then, if I did happen to sneeze on the glass while I was looking, it wouldn't appear as they "intended".

[quote]I am not just talking about ads.. I am talking about articles.. advertisements don't have to be in a ad form son. <hr></blockquote>

:eek:

[quote]Aah Mr. Assumption. Yes I have used XP yes I have seen the smart tag feature. Yes I have messed with it.<hr></blockquote>

Yet you're still unable to tell me what the default set of Smart Tags were. It's not hard.

[quote]That is how they force their standards. Smart tags would just be another stupid MS only tag that no one used but a few sites. MS didn't want that.<hr></blockquote>

Smart Tags aren't an extension to HTML. They are a tool that can be used when viewing HTML pages, and most any other type of media on a Windows computer. As such, I'm not sure how you can argue the whole standards point.

[quote]And that is why people want it gotten rid of. It's MS taking a free ride on others expense. <hr></blockquote>

Sure, get rid of my choices.

[quote]Look in some of the html sources. It says any one changing content without permission is libel for lawsuits.<hr></blockquote>

Once again, that doesn't apply.

[quote]If you disable the meta tag you could indeed be sued.. no matter how far fetched it is.. it's NOT legal.<hr></blockquote>

Sure it is. Just like it's legal for me to highlight a textbook, or use a Sharpie on a newspaper. I can do whatever I want to the content I'm looking at.

[quote]Smart Tags don't change the HTML content.. but add to the page in a way the author wasn't intending without permission OR payment for their space.<hr></blockquote>

It doesn't matter what the author intended. They add to the page in a way the *user* intended.

[quote] You either HAVE them enabled or you use a nonstandard html meta tag to turn them off.<hr></blockquote>

There is no such thing as a "non-standard" meta tag.

[quote]Forcing anyone that doesn't want them on their page to go and change ALL their web pages to turn something off that should require code to turn on. <hr></blockquote>

It does require code to turn on. I have to click and allow Smart Tags to work.

[quote]Good! What does that have to do with web pages that don't want them and don't want to have to go through a huge web site and add meta tags to turn them off?
<hr></blockquote>

Nothing. Why should web authors be allowed to alter/disregard settings on my computer?

[quote]Well I am sure all us web page makers are glad your not the person making that decision. <hr></blockquote>

Take a look at the profile.

[quote]Oh oOh You busted me! Yes it is a html feature. IE ads html links to words son. <hr></blockquote>

IE doesn't change the HTML at all. The Smart Tags look and act nothing like HTML links. They work on many things, not just HTML.

[quote]That may be fine by YOU.. but let me let you in on some information that will probably help you later on in life. You're not the only person that matters. <hr></blockquote>

When I'm looking at a page, I *am* the only person that matters.

[quote]It's all about you isn't it? Want *I* want..I see the brat syndrome popping up in you. It's not your choice to use someone's else's page they pay for to advertise for another company for free. Get it?<hr></blockquote>

I'm a brat because I want my computer to act in a certain way? I suppose you buy your software expecting it to not do what you want?

[quote]Does AI have a retard emoticon?
<hr></blockquote>

They did until you stopped using your sig.
post #32 of 40
First off I just would like to ask if you would please use "quotes" properly. I know you don't care what other people are inconvenienced by cause it just matters what you want to do but your doing it wrong. <strong> [quote]Like I've said repeatedly, the author has no control over how I view their page. They can offer suggestions, but it's up to me what it ultimately looks like when I finally see it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What it LOOKS like.. not it's functionality or what the purpose of it is. Matter of fact if your caught changing someone's web page for you own use.. you can indeed be sued. And if the author has no control over it.. why aren't smart tags being used now? That's what I though
<strong> [quote]Again, I don't care what they want. I care what I want. I want Smart Tags when I view a page.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Guess what. Too bad. I'm going to start calling you Veruca Salt from now on ok?
<strong> [quote]BTW: It's a meta tag that's used to disable tags on a page. Need I point out, that's exactly the type of thing meta tags are designed for?</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is not ONE meta tag that is being used right now to turn off something like this that is specific to a web browser. Go figure. <strong> [quote]Sure you can. That's irrelevant to the entire debate. Are you trying to be thick, or is it easy?</strong><hr></blockquote>
For one.. lets not take my sentence out of context ok? Original
[quote]Most web pages are copyrighted. If you steal text from one and post it in your page you can indeed get sued. Esp if you steal their words and add to them. Again.. it's basically advertising on some ones site without paying for it. If MS or whoever wants to pay a web site to use smart tags that directs them to a link of their then cool.
<hr></blockquote>
And are you trying to say you CAN'T get sued for this? Pleas tell you are so I and every one else can laugh at you. [quote]<strong>It's not MS or the webpages using Smart Tags. Should I say it 400 more times? I can do whatever I want to a web-page while I'm looking at it. I can apply my own stylesheet, filter out certain words, re-arrange everything, make HTML links to porn sites, make forms not work, disable images, disably popups, translate them, turn them backwards... Is there a meta tag to disable any of that?<hr></blockquote></strong>
You can. But if they person who made that page has a copyright on the work and finds out you did it .. they can indeed sue you. That is if you put it on the web. Which is what Smart Tags do. It's not MS using smart tags? WTF do you think put them in IE? Just because you say it 400 times doesn't make you right son. [quote]<strong>
BS. *I* am running a program that enhances my web browsing experience. *I* am allowing that program to highlight keywords that have relevance to me. *I* can choose which are highlighted, and which aren't. MS has nothing to do with it, they've just given me an additional tool I can use while browsing the web.<hr></blockquote></strong>
And WHO controls what these words are being linked to? Do you get to tell IE to link the word "Books" to anywhere you want? No. Your being ignorant again.
[quote]<strong>Sure the program is... who controls the program? Not MS. Not the weather. The user.<hr></blockquote></strong>
And WHO put the ability in there? MS. Stop being such a moron. [quote]<strong>You're wrong. Congratulations on further demonstrating your ignorance. In the earliest build of WinXP (with Smart Tags) they were on by default. It tooks 3 clicks to turn them off. Later, they added a tool bar button.<hr></blockquote></strong>
I apologize. I searched this.. i am wrong. MS buried them as to make it HARD to turn them off. That is why I didn't see it in the first place. Something like that shouldn't be buried. And when it is.. it's done on purpose. Noticed people bitched about that too.. and MS changed it. [quote]<strong>MS would have "did" such a thing if the public outcry was such to taint the image of a rather minor feature.<hr></blockquote></strong>
The Public is who MS sells to. If the greater percentage of people think this feature is really lame MS would be stupid to keep it. Obviously the people have spoken.
[quote]<strong>No, I'm telling you that MS CAN'T use any page to link to one of their propaganda sites. They can, however, provide me with the means of doing so.<hr></blockquote></strong>
So you control all the links? Hmm last version I used I could control the words I wanted.. but not where they went to. Did it change?
[quote]<strong>Once again, it doesn't matter what the author wanted. If the author wanted that much control over how I see their web page, it would never go up on a server. Instead, they would keep it in a sealed glass room, with one monitor set to the perfect resolution, running the optimum browser, and only allow people to see it during normal business hours. Even then, if I did happen to sneeze on the glass while I was looking, it wouldn't appear as they "intended".
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Get real. Your bringing moronic extremes into this discussion to try to further your obviously "I want I want" "Me Me Me" attitude. IT OBVIOUSLY DOES MATTER or MS wouldn't have TOOK THEM OUT right? [quote]<strong>Yet you're still unable to tell me what the default set of Smart Tags were. It's not hard.<hr></blockquote></strong>
And that means what? Absolutely NOTHING. I have seen smart tags in use. I have SEEN what they do to pages. That is ALL I need to know they are CRAP.quote: [quote]<strong>Smart Tags aren't an extension to HTML. They are a tool that can be used when viewing HTML pages, and most any other type of media on a Windows computer. As such, I'm not sure how you can argue the whole standards point.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Web standards son. Browsers should follow them. Not make them up as they go along with MS does with IE. Read up about it sometime. [quote]<strong>Sure, get rid of my choices.<hr></blockquote></strong>
It's not your choice to begin with. Hell I want to browse the net with pics of myself on EVERY page.. IE doesn't let me do that. Those dirty rotten bastards! [quote]<strong>Once again, that doesn't apply.<hr></blockquote></strong> It does when you don't take the sentence out of context like you have a habit of doing. Please stop this it's annoying. <strong> [quote]Sure it is. Just like it's legal for me to highlight a textbook, or use a Sharpie on a newspaper. I can do whatever I want to the content I'm looking at.</strong><hr></blockquote>Highlighting is not changing or redirecting the person to a different book is it? Bad analogy BTW yes they can sue you. Just like if you download a program and change it a company can sue you. Doesn't happen but they CAN do it. Read up a little bit about copy right laws and the internet son. <strong> [quote]It doesn't matter what the author intended. They add to the page in a way the *user* intended.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And that makes it justified in any way? No<strong> [quote]There is no such thing as a "non-standard" meta tag.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Smart Tags are non-standard no? Yes they are non standard. <strong> [quote]It does require code to turn on. I have to click and allow Smart Tags to work.</strong><hr></blockquote>Stop acting stupid. You know what I meant. I am not talking about the user but the author. Sad I had to explain that.
<strong> [quote]Nothing. Why should web authors be allowed to alter/disregard settings on my computer?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why should you be allowed to change copyrighted material to suit your own needs? Guess what it's illegal unless you get permission.<strong> [quote]Take a look at the profile.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry let me rephrase that. "Well I am sure all us web page makers that care about our content and don't want it changed by some pimply faced dork or a company that thinks it knows better than we do are glad your not the person making that decision."
[quote]<strong>
IE doesn't change the HTML at all. The Smart Tags look and act nothing like HTML links. They work on many things, not just HTML
<hr></blockquote></strong>
And this changes the way the web page which IS html is being displayed on the users screen.
[quote]<strong>
When I'm looking at a page, I *am* the only person that matters.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Good for you. Doesn't mean you can go and change other people's work legally to suit your needs son. [quote]<strong>I'm a brat because I want my computer to act in a certain way? I suppose you buy your software expecting it to not do what you want?<hr></blockquote></strong>
No your a brat cause you don't care how it effects people.. what people think about it. What damage it can do. You want it and that is all that matters! [quote]<strong>They did until you stopped using your sig.<hr></blockquote></strong>
That would have been a tiny bit funny if my sig was a emoticon.

BTW read the link xmoger posted. You might learn something.
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post #33 of 40
Actually I don't know why I am arguing with you. The proof is in the pudding. If smart tags where "ok" MS would still be using them. MS doesn't get bullied around on things that "could" be bad. This was a BIG no no.
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post #34 of 40
I see Sinewave take the effort to acknowledge the good and bad of Smartlinks. They can be useful tools, but they can also be too powerful for their own good if just indiscriminately let loose (enabled). I don't believe Sinewave wants them banished altogether, just "off" as a failsafe default for webpages in general, unless the webpage maker explicitly enables them (then it is up to the user from there on, if they wish to enable them on their browser or not). I'm sure we'll see all of RD's webpages (and many others) with Smartlinks enabled and more power to him. It's the most prudent way to go, since there is virtually no regulation over the content of whoever's Smartlink set the user happens to be using (and the default set happens to be whatever M$ feels is "appropriate"). The user has lost very little if Smartlinks have not been enabled from the webpage end, and can easily find the same information just by doing his own webpage search.

I see RD argue in circles (for his own edification, perhaps, not to further the understanding of the topic for the rest of us), all the while dropping in the insulting jab. He acknowledges all of the benefits (for him, of course), but refuses to acknowledge any of the potential dangers that Sinewave and others before him have brought up. His position, evidently, is simply that "it is good for him, therefore it is good for everybody else no matter what the potential dangers are for others". Evidently, it is easy to advocate the wonders of Smartlinks, when you completely turn a blind eye to the drawbacks (or assume the drawbacks don't exist since they don't apply to you).

From that standpoint, I think it is pretty clear which one of them has a more objective understanding of the topic, and which one is arguing for the sake of arguing.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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post #35 of 40
Thread Starter 
All I kept thinking of when RD was saying that he can change the webpage to be however he wants was "intellectual property." Who owns the content on the web? For my site, as Sinewave said, I own it. It's copyright *me*. RD apparently doesn't believe in intellectual property rights. It's a good thing that some people do.

It's a funny contradiction that MS has going on: on the one hand you've got WPA to protect their intellectual property, you've got them in bed with the RIAA supporting all kinds of copy-protections on CDs, etc. And on the other, you've got MS stepping on (or giving people the means to step on) the intellectual property rights of others. The DeCSS ruling, while not entirely appropriate as an analogy, has shown us that the courts don't like it when one gives another the means of stealing or altering intellectual property.

So, I guess I just want someone to sort out this contradiction for me. Am I the only one who sees this? Any takers?
post #36 of 40
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>All I kept thinking of when RD was saying that he can change the webpage to be however he wants was "intellectual property." Who owns the content on the web? For my site, as Sinewave said, I own it. It's copyright *me*. RD apparently doesn't believe in intellectual property rights. It's a good thing that some people do.

It's a funny contradiction that MS has going on: on the one hand you've got WPA to protect their intellectual property, you've got them in bed with the RIAA supporting all kinds of copy-protections on CDs, etc. And on the other, you've got MS stepping on (or giving people the means to step on) the intellectual property rights of others. The DeCSS ruling, while not entirely appropriate as an analogy, has shown us that the courts don't like it when one gives another the means of stealing or altering intellectual property.

So, I guess I just want someone to sort out this contradiction for me. Am I the only one who sees this? Any takers?</strong><hr></blockquote>

MS wants as much control over the media. MSNBC, WMP, SmartTags... that way less bad things can be said about MS.
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post #37 of 40
RD,

We've had this argument before and well.....you lost ( both the argument and the reality of Smart Tags ) so what's the point of more long winded replies?

MS knows the jig is up ( at least for a while ) and they have had to back off on their plans for world conquest for a bit.

I don't really see MS as a bad software company ( I just bought an XBOX ). It's their intentions and the way they go about them that I question.

When you're in competition being the best is one thing .......being the ONLY is something else entirely.
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post #38 of 40
[quote]<strong>First off I just would like to ask if you would please use "quotes" properly. I know you don't care what other people are inconvenienced by cause it just matters what you want to do but your doing it wrong. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Oddly enough, I didn't even know QB existed.

[quote]<strong>What it LOOKS like.. not it's functionality or what the purpose of it is.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sure I do. I can run a Javascript that will change every link on a page I'm viewing to anything I want. I can run WebWasher and get rid of adds, and filter out Window.Open calls.

[quote]<strong>Matter of fact if your caught changing someone's web page for you own use.. you can indeed be sued.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You must be kidding. Of course I couldn't. I couldn't be sued for opening up a novel and changing paragraphs with a Sharpie either. What I do to content that I'm looking at is completely up to me. It effects only me, and only I (through the software on my computer) actually have complete control over it.

The author can offer suggestions, but the final choice is not theirs.

[quote]<strong>There is not ONE meta tag that is being used right now to turn off something like this that is specific to a web browser. Go figure.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Irrelevant (and wrong). You can use Meta tags to show spiders where to go in the page hierarchy, among other things. Those aren't "standard," even though they may be widely used. The entire point of meta tags is to allow a program viewing content to alter it's settings.

[quote]<strong>And are you trying to say you CAN'T get sued for this? Pleas tell you are so I and every one else can laugh at you. </strong><hr></blockquote>

You're conveniently ignoring the difference between me changing something for my use, and me changing something for distribution. You *can* get sued for distribution, you *can't* get sued if you're doing it on your own. I can turn a DVD on, change the tints on the TV to show everything as blue, and no one can sue me for it.

[quote]<strong>You can. But if they person who made that page has a copyright on the work and finds out you did it .. they can indeed sue you. That is if you put it on the web. Which is what Smart Tags do. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Ahh... now we're to the crux of the issue. How do Smart Tags change content, then redistribute it? If they were run on the server side, I would agree with you completely. However, me using Smart Tags in no way infringes on the author's right to the material.

Explain to me how Smart Tags change the content AND distribute it?

[quote]<strong>And WHO controls what these words are being linked to? Do you get to tell IE to link the word "Books" to anywhere you want? No.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes I do. I can tell IE to use any Smart Tags I want, even some I've authored through into XML file. Additionally, I can allow IE to use Smart Tags provided by some third party (like ESPN). Either way, I have control over what's tagged, where it goes, and anything else it may do.

[quote]<strong>And WHO put the ability in there? MS.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And who makes Sharpies? Sanford. How is Sanford infringing on the rights of Tom Clancy when I use their product to change his works?

[quote]<strong>MS buried them as to make it HARD to turn them off. That is why I didn't see it in the first place. Something like that shouldn't be buried. And when it is.. it's done on purpose. Noticed people bitched about that too.. and MS changed it. </strong><hr></blockquote>

They were put into a Beta of WinXP. Beta's are usually to provide feedback. People felt that there should be an easy way to toggle Smart Tags. MS provided that for a later beta. I fail to see the hangup.

[quote]<strong>The Public is who MS sells to. If the greater percentage of people think this feature is really lame MS would be stupid to keep it. Obviously the people have spoken. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Unfortunately, most of the outcry was from completely uninformed public (as usual). The uninformed (or misinformed) public ruins quite a bit for the average consumer, VHS dominance over BetaMax for instance.

[quote]<strong>So you control all the links? Hmm last version I used I could control the words I wanted.. but not where they went to. Did it change?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sure I can. I can disable all the Smart Tags, whip up an XML file, and have a completely customized set. Most of the time, I would prefer to let someone else do the work (like ESPN).

[quote]<strong>And that means what? Absolutely NOTHING. I have seen smart tags in use. I have SEEN what they do to pages. That is ALL I need to know they are CRAP.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you really have as much experience with them as you claim (any), you would easily be able to tell me what the default set was.

So far, you've been factually incorrect about how they work. Obviously, by asking you what the default set was, I'm discrediting your opinions. Opinions are fine, unless they're based on ignorance, or half truths, as yours seem to be. Whether that's intentional or not, I have no idea.

[quote]<strong>Web standards son. Browsers should follow them. Not make them up as they go along with MS does with IE. Read up about it sometime. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I know all about web standards. Smart Tags aren't covered because they're not part of HTML, or any other technology that's involved with putting content on the web.

[quote]<strong>It's not your choice to begin with. Hell I want to browse the net with pics of myself on EVERY page.. IE doesn't let me do that. Those dirty rotten bastards! </strong><hr></blockquote>

Sure it does. Enable the "user specified" StyleSheet, and set the BODY property to use your picture as the background image.

[quote]<strong>Highlighting is not changing or redirecting the person to a different book is it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It is changing the content. That seems to be your big hangup.

[quote]<strong>Bad analogy BTW yes they can sue you. Just like if you download a program and change it a company can sue you.</strong><hr></blockquote>



If I download an illegal copy, they can come after me. If I crack my legal copy, they can't do anything about it.

[quote]<strong>Doesn't happen but they CAN do it. Read up a little bit about copy right laws and the internet son. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I suppose you're referring to the DMCA and perhaps the Russian guy who wrote a program to remove copy protection from eBooks? The feds went after him because his program broke a proprietary encryption produced by Adobe. I don't particularly agree with that, or the DMCA as a whole, but it clearly doesn't apply here.

[quote]<strong>Smart Tags are non-standard no? Yes they are non standard. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Smart Tags aren't meta tags. The meta tag to turn them off is not proprietary. By their very definition, meta tags are designed to allow such things, therefore their proper usage can't be considered proprietary and non-standard.

[quote]<strong>Why should you be allowed to change copyrighted material to suit your own needs? Guess what it's illegal unless you get permission. </strong><hr></blockquote>

No it's not. It is illegal to distribute the content, but it's not illegal to change it.

[quote]<strong>Good for you. Doesn't mean you can go and change other people's work legally to suit your needs son. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course I can. I can write notes in the margin of a book all I want, I can even sell that book. I can make copies out of a text-book to turn in with a research paper. I can do whatever I want with the particular copy of the work I own, as long as I don't distribute it.

[quote]<strong>No your a brat cause you don't care how it effects people.. what people think about it. What damage it can do. You want it and that is all that matters</strong><hr></blockquote>

When I enable Smart Tags, it only has an effect on one person... me. If Smart Tags were server side, or impossible to change/turn off, you might have a point. But they're not.

[quote]<strong>I see Sinewave take the effort to acknowledge the good and bad of Smartlinks.</strong><hr></blockquote>



His understanding of their implementation and the legality behind them is fundamentally flawed. Therefore he's basing a negative opinion on his very thin and uninformed experiences.

[quote]<strong> I don't believe Sinewave wants them banished altogether, just "off" as a failsafe default for webpages in general, unless the webpage maker explicitly enables them </strong><hr></blockquote>

Like I said, the webpage author doesn't, and shouldn't have that much control over my particular copy of their work.

[quote]<strong>I'm sure we'll see all of RD's webpages (and many others) with Smartlinks enabled and more power to him.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You'll see my copy of IE6 with Smart Tags enabled. You'll also see my copy of Office XP with Smart Tags enabled.

[quote]<strong>It's the most prudent way to go, since there is virtually no regulation over the content of whoever's Smartlink set the user happens to be using (and the default set happens to be whatever M$ feels is "appropriate").</strong><hr></blockquote>

The user has complete power over the Smart Tag definitions on their particular computer. Other regulation is just intrusive.

[quote]<strong>I see RD argue in circles (for his own edification, perhaps, not to further the understanding of the topic for the rest of us), all the while dropping in the insulting jab.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok, I'll further the understanding of the topic for the rest of you:

1) Smart tags are client side.
2) The user has complete control over the Smart Tag definitions
3) There is no re-distribution of the work.
4) The only person who sees the effect of the Tags is the surfer who has them enabled.
5) Content authors have very little control over their works, once it's in the hands of the consumer
6) You can't be sued for changing your own copy of something for your own personal use.

[quote]<strong>He acknowledges all of the benefits (for him, of course), but refuses to acknowledge any of the potential dangers that Sinewave and others before him have brought up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The potential dangers are only a possibility of Smart Tags become something else entirely. Right now, they're nothing more than a framework the user can use to allow the browser to highlight keywords, allowing extra information instantly.

[quote]<strong>From that standpoint, I think it is pretty clear which one of them has a more objective understanding of the topic, and which one is arguing for the sake of arguing.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks Dr. Crane.

[quote]<strong>All I kept thinking of when RD was saying that he can change the webpage to be however he wants was "intellectual property." Who owns the content on the web?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The author owns the content. I own a copy.

[quote]<strong>For my site, as Sinewave said, I own it. It's copyright *me*.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I own the copy that's in my cache. I can do whatever I want to it, and as long as I don't distribute it, you can't do anything about it.

[quote]<strong>RD apparently doesn't believe in intellectual property rights. It's a good thing that some people do.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course I do. I don't, however, believe in the rights of content authors to take away the powers I have of enhancing their content for my own use.

[quote]<strong>So, I guess I just want someone to sort out this contradiction for me. Am I the only one who sees this? Any takers?</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is no contradiction. Smart Tags are in no way a violation of your intellectual property rights.

[quote]<strong>We've had this argument before and well.....you lost ( both the argument and the reality of Smart Tags ) </strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh? Then what's the reality of Smart Tags. What's the difference between using a Sharpie to make notes in a Nnvel and using Smart Tags?

[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: RubberDucky ]</p>
post #39 of 40
Rubber Ducky, you're the one. You make thread time so much fun ( everybody ) ! You keep on pontificatin but nobody listens cause you're advocatin satan ( ok that one was a stretch ). Rubby Ducky , you're ..... the ...... one de , de. Yeah! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #40 of 40
[quote]<strong>Sure I do. I can run a Javascript that will change every link on a page I'm viewing to anything I want. I can run WebWasher and get rid of adds, and filter out Window.Open calls.<hr></blockquote></strong>
You can but it wont change the article's intentions. Nor does it use some one else's web space as free advertisement. [quote]<strong>You must be kidding. Of course I couldn't. I couldn't be sued for opening up a novel and changing paragraphs with a Sharpie either. What I do to content that I'm looking at is completely up to me. It effects only me, and only I (through the software on my computer) actually have complete control over it.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Have you ever even heard of intellectual property rights? I didn't think so. Smart tags is not opening up a novel and underlining with a sharpie. It's making those underlined words go to ANOTHER book that the author didn't intend for you to go to. Thereby changing their perception of their work. Bad analogy. [quote]<strong>The author can offer suggestions, but the final choice is not theirs.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Again you know nothing about intellectual property rights. And your talking out your ass. As quite a few members here have pointed out to you. [quote]<strong>Irrelevant (and wrong). You can use Meta tags to show spiders where to go in the page hierarchy, among other things. Those aren't "standard," even though they may be widely used. The entire point of meta tags is to allow a program viewing content to alter it's settings.<hr></blockquote></strong>
How many meta tags out there are made to turn something off instead of turn something on that isn't standard by all web browsers? Not that it matters anyhow. This is just more of you wanting to argue to be arguing. [quote]<strong>
You're conveniently ignoring the difference between me changing something for my use, and me changing something for distribution. You *can* get sued for distribution, you *can't* get sued if you're doing it on your own. I can turn a DVD on, change the tints on the TV to show everything as blue, and no one can sue me for it.<hr></blockquote></strong>
If the web page has a copy right and legal rights to sue anyone that changes it yes they can. Guess what you can get sued for changing programs that you didn't distribute too! It doesn't happen but it's very possible. I can get sued for hacking the Aqua look and feel. Again your showing you know little about such legal matters. [quote]<strong>Ahh... now we're to the crux of the issue. How do Smart Tags change content, then redistribute it? If they were run on the server side, I would agree with you completely. However, me using Smart Tags in no way infringes on the author's right to the material.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Again you don't know diddly about intellectual property rights. MS took smart tags out so they wouldn't get sued. Plain and simple.
[quote]<strong>Explain to me how Smart Tags change the content AND distribute it?<hr></blockquote></strong>
Dosen't matter HOW it does it... it DOES it. Nice grab at straws though. [quote]<strong>\\Yes I do. I can tell IE to use any Smart Tags I want, even some I've authored through into XML file. Additionally, I can allow IE to use Smart Tags provided by some third party (like ESPN). Either way, I have control over what's tagged, where it goes, and anything else it may do.<hr></blockquote></strong>
So you control what words go to what links? Then what is the purpose of smart tags? I mean why not bookmark those sites? And those 3rd party control where the links go. Getting free advertisement on the expense of others. [quote]<strong>And who makes Sharpies? Sanford. How is Sanford infringing on the rights of Tom Clancy when I use their product to change his works?<hr></blockquote></strong>
Bad example.. and your grabbing for straws now. If sharpie made a maker to specifically change how a book was perceived against the authors wishes then it WOULD be the fault of Sharpie.. and they WOULD get sued.
Try again. [quote]<strong>They were put into a Beta of WinXP. Beta's are usually to provide feedback. People felt that there should be an easy way to toggle Smart Tags. MS provided that for a later beta. I fail to see the hangup.<hr></blockquote></strong>
MS as we all know have a habit of burying options they don't want users to have easy access to. When smart tags started getting flak MS said "look how easy it is to turn them off now.. see we are playing nice!" [quote]<strong>Unfortunately, most of the outcry was from completely uninformed public (as usual). The uninformed (or misinformed) public ruins quite a bit for the average consumer, VHS dominance over BetaMax for instance.<hr></blockquote></strong>
No the public was fully informed and NEW exactly what MS's intentions was. Not everyone has their rose colored MS glasses on like you do son. MS is a company that has proven itself not to be trusted. That a lone was enough to warrant worry. [quote]<strong>Sure I can. I can disable all the Smart Tags, whip up an XML file, and have a completely customized set. Most of the time, I would prefer to let someone else do the work (like ESPN).<hr></blockquote></strong>
And most other customers wont be messing with XML tags and using default ones. Just like MS wanted. Your point just bottomed out. [quote]<strong>If you really have as much experience with them as you claim (any), you would easily be able to tell me what the default set was.<hr></blockquote></strong>
How stupid is this statement? You mean to say cause I didn't go in the settings and see what the default settings was I have never used smart tags? WRONG. I have SEEN how they work in web pages son. That is ALL ANY ONE needs to see. What part of that is SO hard for you to understand? [quote]<strong>So far, you've been factually incorrect about how they work. Obviously, by asking you what the default set was, I'm discrediting your opinions. Opinions are fine, unless they're based on ignorance, or half truths, as yours seem to be. Whether that's intentional or not, I have no idea.<hr></blockquote></strong>
None of my statements were untrue. Your just a blind zealot that has no idea what he is talking about when it comes to personal property rights son. As you can see by the comments in this thread.. who is looking like the idiot that is just using this thread for your verbal masturbation. [quote]<strong>I know all about web standards. Smart Tags aren't covered because they're not part of HTML, or any other technology that's involved with putting content on the web.<hr></blockquote></strong>
But they change the content.. and are not standard. They change the way the html works in a unstandard way. How many times do I and the other people in this thread have to tell you this? [quote]<strong>Sure it does. Enable the "user specified" StyleSheet, and set the BODY property to use your picture as the background image.<hr></blockquote></strong>
I'd like to see your mom do that.
In fishnets. [quote]<strong>It is changing the content. That seems to be your big hangup.<hr></blockquote></strong>
No my biggest hangup is it's changing the authors purpose of the page. The reason why he payed money to put the site up. Now MS gave companies a way to advertise at other people's expense. [quote]<strong>If I download an illegal copy, they can come after me. If I crack my legal copy, they can't do anything about it.<hr></blockquote></strong>
If the have a statement (which 99% of software does) saying that if you modify the software in ANY way you can be liable for prosecution. Again your wrong. [quote]<strong>I suppose you're referring to the DMCA and perhaps the Russian guy who wrote a program to remove copy protection from eBooks? The feds went after him because his program broke a proprietary encryption produced by Adobe. I don't particularly agree with that, or the DMCA as a whole, but it clearly doesn't apply here.<hr></blockquote></strong>
No I am referring to modifying a program from it's original state. [quote]<strong>Smart Tags aren't meta tags. The meta tag to turn them off is not proprietary. By their very definition, meta tags are designed to allow such things, therefore their proper usage can't be considered proprietary and non-standard.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Do you actually sit at home and practice talking in circles to amuse yourself? You know muddying your waters to appear deep.. doesn't do just that. [quote]<strong>No it's not. It is illegal to distribute the content, but it's not illegal to change it.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Again you know nothing about intellectual property rights. [quote]<strong>Of course I can. I can write notes in the margin of a book all I want, I can even sell that book. I can make copies out of a text-book to turn in with a research paper. I can do whatever I want with the particular copy of the work I own, as long as I don't distribute it.<hr></blockquote></strong>
If the copyright gives you permission to do so you can. [quote]<strong>When I enable Smart Tags, it only has an effect on one person... me.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
I am sure that is how you see it. Sad.
[quote]<strong>
If Smart Tags were server side, or impossible to change/turn off, you might have a point. But they're not.<hr></blockquote></strong>
And your point is? [quote]<strong>His understanding of their implementation and the legality behind them is fundamentally flawed. Therefore he's basing a negative opinion on his very thin and uninformed experiences.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Boy that statement was a knee slapper. *I* don't know the legality behind them? AHAHHAHAquote: [quote]<strong>Like I said, the webpage author doesn't, and shouldn't have that much control over my particular copy of their work.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Too bad they can if they want. [quote]<strong>The potential dangers are only a possibility of Smart Tags become something else entirely. Right now, they're nothing more than a framework the user can use to allow the browser to highlight keywords, allowing extra information instantly.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Hi .. my name is Mr. Naive. How are you doing today Mr. InDenial? [quote]<strong>I own the copy that's in my cache. I can do whatever I want to it, and as long as I don't distribute it, you can't do anything about it.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Thanks for showing us YET AGAIN that you have no idea what your talking about. [quote]<strong>Of course I do. I don't, however, believe in the rights of content authors to take away the powers I have of enhancing their content for my own use.<hr></blockquote></strong>
You don't have any such powers son. Again you don't know what your talking about. [quote]<strong>There is no contradiction. Smart Tags are in no way a violation of your intellectual property rights.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Yeah that's why MS doesn't use them anymore! Cause you know MS caves in on anything that even COULD be illegal. [quote]<strong>Oh? Then what's the reality of Smart Tags. What's the difference between using a Sharpie to make notes in a Nnvel and using Smart Tags?<hr></blockquote></strong>
Depends on the copyright and usage of the book. Not ALL web pages or BOOKS have the same copyright. Smart Tags don't distinguish between them.

Thanks again for showing us just how much you know about why Smart Tags aren't being used again. Feel free to reply to this so I can again.. make you look like a moron.

Here is a nice web page as to WHY MS didn't ship XP with smart tags.

<a href="http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5093404,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5093404,00.html</a>

Scary
With Smart Tags, Microsoft can link any word on a Web page to another site chosen by the company. For example, if a person were reading a story about traveling, the word "airline" could include a link that would divert the reader to an airline or travel service chosen by Microsoft.


Look I was right! I must know something about Smart Tags huh!

Smart Tags, which are created using XML (Extensible Markup Language), could have strengthened Microsoft's ability to tie its newest applications and operating systems to its own Web sites or others that it favors, including those that charge fees.


I am sure these people have no idea what they are talking about too huh!

What was most worrisome for analysts and others is that Smart Tags tie Web content exclusively to Microsoft software, in this case Office XP and Windows XP, according to Chris LeTocq, an analyst with Guernsey Research. The feature gave Microsoft "some powerful leverage," LeTocq said, particularly since the company can use its products to redirect users to MSN Web properties and eventually sites "with premium paid services." The test version included Smart Tags for sports, stock and university information.
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