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Apple sales team concerned about shrinking high-end iPhone market, but Schiller disagrees

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
An internal Apple document presented as part of the ongoing Samsung v. Apple trial shows that the company's sales team was worried that a maturing market may leave no room for iPhone growth, though marketing chief Phil Schiller downplayed the document's significance.

Schiller


"Competitors have drastically improved their hardware and in some cases their ecosystems," one Apple employee wrote, expressing concern that such growth would result in fewer customers for the iPhone. The document was introduced at trial by Samsung and its contents reported by Re/code.

Smartphone growth, the document argued, was in sectors that Apple had chosen to ignore but competitors had jumped in to fill -- namely, low-end devices and handsets with large displays. Additionally, carriers were though to be balking at increasing the mix of iPhones in their smartphone sales because of the devices' high subsidies.

The document, prepared for an offsite Apple sales meeting, went on to call out rivals' "obscene" spending on advertising and carrier partnerships to reinforce its point. Samsung, Apple's biggest competitor, spent some $14 billion on advertising in 2013 compared to Apple's relatively modest $1 billion.

Schiller, the executive in charge of Apple's worldwide marketing efforts, said during cross-examination that he does not entirely agree with the views presented in the document. Further, he added, it does not represent Apple's official position.

Schiller does have solid statistical footing on which to base his disagreement. The flagship iPhone 5s, with a 4-inch display and an off-contract price of more than $600, has been the best-selling smartphone in the U.S. each month since its release.
post #2 of 43
Samsung is play a game of distraction trying to throw the jury off the simple fact that they infringed on the patents in question. The patents should be what this trial is about.
post #3 of 43

seems like Samsung knows its going to lose and presenting evidence which has no bearing what so ever on winning the trial. Maybe they see this as free advertising or a way to hurt Apple somehow by mocking them.  When you spend 16 billon on ads, making most out of losing 2 billion this trial seems like a good way to promote Samsung and hurt Apple in the process.

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post #4 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by radnuker View Post

Samsung is play a game of distraction trying to throw the jury off the simple fact that they infringed on the patents in question. The patents should be what this trial is about.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #5 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

seems like Samsung knows its going to lose and presenting evidence which has no bearing what so ever on winning the trial. Maybe they see this as free advertising or a way to hurt Apple somehow by mocking them.  When you spend 16 billon on ads, making most out of losing 2 billion this trial seems like a good way to promote Samsung and hurt Apple in the process.

It's an opportunity to advertise free. Whatever they say at this trial will be repeated free by the tech media. So they're putting on a show. For us, not just the jury.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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post #6 of 43

Chewbacca defense. That's hilarious! I had totally forgotten about that!

 

Nice!

post #7 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by radnuker View Post

Samsung is play a game of distraction trying to throw the jury off the simple fact that they infringed on the patents in question. The patents should be what this trial is about.

Yeah I was wondering where Samsung is going with this. Unless they're trying to show that it's not about patent infringement but Apple wanting to stop a competitor they were afraid of? Clearly it's BS but getting the jury off track might work for them. Especially if the judge is eager to get this trial over with.
post #8 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by radnuker View Post

Samsung is play a game of distraction trying to throw the jury off the simple fact that they infringed on the patents in question. The patents should be what this trial is about.

Yeah I was wondering where Samsung is going with this. Unless they're trying to show that it's not about patent infringement but Apple wanting to stop a competitor they were afraid of? Clearly it's BS but getting the jury off track might work for them. Especially if the judge is eager to get this trial over with.

kind of hurts their efforts to show that the patents were not worth much when you compare it to what they are trying to say in this side show.  Pick an angle Samsung and stick to it.  If you are trying to show that you really hurt Apple because you are powerful with consumers then its hurts your "the patents are not worth much" argument.

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post #9 of 43
I don't understand dumb customers are buy cheap crappy plastics android phones. I don't to buy any cheap crappy plastic android phones because I want a beautiful sexy iPhone hardware instead plastics phones. The android phones are not beautiful sexy phones
post #10 of 43

Apple patent trolls Samsung. So Samsung is trolling in court

post #11 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by tastowe View Post

I don't understand dumb customers are buy cheap crappy plastics android phones. I don't to buy any cheap crappy plastic android phones because I want a beautiful sexy iPhone hardware instead plastics phones. The android phones are not beautiful sexy phones

Who can compete with such highly evolved reasoning?
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post #12 of 43
" Unless they're trying to show that it's not about patent infringement but Apple wanting to stop a competitor they were afraid of?"

Yes. That is exactly Samsung's case.

"Especially if the judge is eager to get this trial over with."

Why wouldn't the judge be eager? To put it another way, what is it that Apple wants exactly?

A) To stop Samsung from selling phones and tablets? Not going to happen.
B) To impose such high fees that it will stop Samsung from selling comparable products at cheaper prices? Not going to happen.
C) To use an infringement verdict against Samsung as basis for going after Google and Android itself in order to use the courts to eliminate the competition entirely?
Well, when Samsung brought this up, Apple protested loudly (too loudly perhaps?) but if that isn't the real strategy, what is?
Steve Jobs: %u201CI'm going to destroy Android, because it's a stolen product. I'm willing to go thermonuclear war on this.%u201D

At this point, with dozens of manufacturers making thousands of Android products worldwide, the genie is not going to be put back into the bottle. Apple can either enter into licensing agreements with Android manufacturers - as Microsoft has done, and Microsoft now makes money off 55% of Android devices sold and is also seeking those same agreements from companies that make the other 45% - or simply beat them in the marketplace. (And incidentally, it is doing precisely that.)

Apple won some early victories, but at this point the courts are not going to ban Android, nor are they going to make Android too economically impractical to sell by charging some massive penalty fee for each device manufactured. If Apple keeps tilting at legal windmills while Android manufacturers like Amazon, Samsung, Google and HTC keep introducing new products (not groundbreaking gamechangers, true, but stuff capable of moving the needle like phablets, Chromecast, wearables and now Fire TV) along with Microsoft finally emerging from the Ballmer malaise swinging, you can't blame analysists for looking at companies other than Apple when pondering where the action is.
post #13 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

It's an opportunity to advertise free. Whatever they say at this trial will be repeated free by the tech media. 

Not free! Samsung has spent $billions greasing the media for this. Apple? not so much.

post #14 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensmovement View Post

At this point, with dozens of manufacturers making thousands of Android products worldwide, the genie is not going to be put back into the bottle.

You might be surprised at the magnitude of the effect within the little ol'U.S.A. of a verdict that's strongly in Apple's favor.

post #15 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post
 

You might be surprised at the magnitude of the effect within the little ol'U.S.A. of a verdict that's strongly in Apple's favor.

Lat trial outcome didn't had so much effect in ol'USA, why do you think this new trial will change that?

post #16 of 43

Apple outsells Samsung at the high end by over 2:1 (Galaxy S and variants hit 200 million recently according to Samsung's own announcement while iPhone sales over the exact same time period as the Galaxy was 430 million).

 

Samsung is a distant second place to Apple and 3rd, 4th and 5th are so far behind they're hardly even relevant.

 

I don't see how anyone could assume that Apple is "concerned" considering the sales numbers they're consistently putting up.

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post #17 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Schiller does have solid statistical footing on which to base his disagreement. The flagship iPhone 5s, with a 4-inch display and an off-contract price of more than $600, has been the best-selling smartphone in the U.S. each month since its release.

 

...I rest my case.

post #18 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Apple outsells Samsung at the high end by over 2:1 (Galaxy S and variants hit 200 million recently according to Samsung's own announcement while iPhone sales over the exact same time period as the Galaxy was 430 million).

Samsung is a distant second place to Apple and 3rd, 4th and 5th are so far behind they're hardly even relevant.

I don't see how anyone could assume that Apple is "concerned" considering the sales numbers they're consistently putting up.

There's no such thing as 'too big to fail' nor 'too big a lead'. Dismissing the competition has led to the downfall of men, companies, and countries.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #19 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

...I rest my case.

But how is that different from any iPhone before it? They've all out sold previous models in record numbers.
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
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post #20 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tastowe View Post

I don't understand dumb customers are buy cheap crappy plastics android phones. I don't to buy any cheap crappy plastic android phones because I want a beautiful sexy iPhone hardware instead plastics phones. The android phones are not beautiful sexy phones

Who can compete with such highly evolved reasoning?

you have at least two choices to try to compete. 

#1 bring up your game in an attempt to satifisty customers like this with higher quality builds like HTC One

#2. see if you have any affect by trying even harder to appeal to their wallet by making even cheaper junk. 

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post #21 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

you have at least two choices to try to compete. 
#1 bring up your game in an attempt to satifisty customers like this with higher quality builds like HTC One
#2. see if you have any affect by trying even harder to appeal to their wallet by making even cheaper junk. 

#1 don't you mean 'cheaper junks'?

#2 I was being facetious.
"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" Mark Twain
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post #22 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

Apple outsells Samsung at the high end by over 2:1 (Galaxy S and variants hit 200 million recently according to Samsung's own announcement while iPhone sales over the exact same time period as the Galaxy was 430 million).

Samsung is a distant second place to Apple and 3rd, 4th and 5th are so far behind they're hardly even relevant.

I don't see how anyone could assume that Apple is "concerned" considering the sales numbers they're consistently putting up.

From testimony today:
"After watching one Samsung pre-Super Bowl ad Schiller wrote an email to Vincent, commenting on the ad. “It’s pretty good and I cant help but think “these guys are feeling it” (like an athlete who can’t miss because they are in the zone) while we struggle to nail a compelling brief on iPhone,” Schiller wrote in an email, presented in court on Friday. He added: “Something drastic has to change. Fast.”
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post #23 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

There's no such thing as 'too big to fail' nor 'too big a lead'. Dismissing the competition has led to the downfall of men, companies, and countries.

 

I'm sure Apple is well-aware with what everyone else is doing. If they were not, they'd be negligent. The difference is that they don't "obsess" with the competition- they will do what they think is right and follow their own trend, instead of blindly reacting every time a competitor releases something.  What everyone else is doing tends to have little bearing or influence on their own direction, which is good. If someone doesn't agree with this, they should try to imagine what the landscape would look like if the iPhone/iPad/Macbooks didn't exist. Now, think of how these would look if "competitors" didn't exist- I'm not convinced the iPhone would be much, if at all different. It has not drawn inspiration from anything else. 


Edited by Slurpy - 4/4/14 at 4:20pm
post #24 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Dismissing the competition has led to the downfall of men, companies, and countries.

Funny how that kind of cautionary FUD only gets applied to Apple in these forums.

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post #25 of 43
Samsung knows this has noting to do with the trial and doesn't care what impact it has. All they care about is making sure it's public knowledge. Do a Google news search on Apple and you ll see that every tech site, BI, Businessweek, WSJ, etc. are reporting how secret documents show Apple is scared of Android and worried about Samsung marketing. I hope Steve's "holy war" has been worth it,
post #26 of 43
What a compete effing joke!!
Apple has essentially one goddamn phone and spent 1 billion advertising while her competitors spent a combined 14 billion and have like 150 fu***** phones. And Apple is still banking like a boss. Um, what?
Don't waste my time with this bull****!
post #27 of 43
Someone needs to tip off Samsung's defense attorney that coming up with an alibi and showing motive are not useful in patent cases.  These guys are all over the map like a trapped rat. 

 

What's next bringing in the author of "Haunted Empire" as a character witness for the defense?

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post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccherry View Post

What a compete effing joke!!
Apple has essentially one goddamn phone and spent 1 billion advertising while her competitors spent a combined 14 billion and have like 150 fu***** phones. And Apple is still banking like a boss. Um, what?
Don't waste my time with this bull****!

U MAD BRO?

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

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post #29 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Funny how that kind of cautionary FUD only gets applied to Apple in these forums.

Because Apple isn't behind anyone. They're the top dog. They already came from behind, and beat everyone. There was a article just the other day of all the people that dismissed the Apple, and the iPhone. Where's Dell, Palm, and BB nowadays? In my life I've seen David slay Goliath many times.
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"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #30 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post

Funny how that kind of cautionary FUD only gets applied to Apple in these forums.

Because Apple isn't behind anyone. They're the top dog. They already came from behind, and beat everyone. There was a article just the other day of all the people that dismissed the Apple, and the iPhone. Where's Dell, Palm, and BB nowadays? In my life I've seen David slay Goliath many times.

you missed Suddently Newton's point entirely. Its the way that Apple ignores the competition's challenges to race to the bottom at all cost,  and instead blaze their own trail on their own schedule that continues to make them the respected and feared underdog.    No matter how large they have become.  Who else does that in this industry?

 

Or is your definition of underdog, the guy that makes 150 different models of something and throws it at the wall, or announces vaporware that never sees the light of day, or the guy that gives product away at no/low margin hoping to make it up in volume?  Is this your hero? Who do you admire and why?  Don't tell me... Samsung, right? The great underdog who brought us the innovative Smart Gear line.


Edited by snova - 4/4/14 at 5:27pm
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post #31 of 43
Sales team ... An image of sweaty, rumpled Glengarry-Glen Ross'rs fretting their quarterly iSales ...
post #32 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

From testimony today:
"After watching one Samsung pre-Super Bowl ad Schiller wrote an email to Vincent, commenting on the ad. “It’s pretty good and I cant help but think “these guys are feeling it” (like an athlete who can’t miss because they are in the zone) while we struggle to nail a compelling brief on iPhone,” Schiller wrote in an email, presented in court on Friday. He added: “Something drastic has to change. Fast.”

I see that mainly as a pep talk, like a sports coach. Sure, he acknowledges that the competition is tough, but they also play dirty. Apple is at a disadvantage in that area because they can't play dirty. It is against their ethics and would damage their reputation. Schiller just wants the ad agency to come up with a compelling ad that still adheres to Apple principles.

 

Samsung does a lot of trash talking and that sort of thing appeals to the lower end customers, which is where all the growth in mobile phones is going to be, because there are billions and billions of those sorts of people with cheaper Androids and feature phones who want to upgrade. Who knows, perhaps Apple makes those sorts of people feel self conscious, so they go to Best Buy instead of to the Apple Store.

 

Anyway, In my opinion, Schiller should be concerned with the shrinking high-end market. A large portion of iPhone users are already on their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th iPhone and that is just treading water, not growth.

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post #33 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

you missed Suddently Newton's point entirely. Its the way that Apple ignores the competition's challenges to race to the bottom at all cost,  and instead blaze their own trail on their own schedule that continues to make them the respected and feared underdog.    No matter how large they have become.  Who else does that in this industry?

Or is your definition of underdog, the guy that makes 150 different models of something and throws it at the wall, or announces vaporware that never sees the light of day, or the guy that gives product away at no/low margin hoping to make it up in volume?  Is this your hero?

Apple hasn't been the 'underdog' for quite some time. I have no 'hero', for even the mightiest of heroes has been slain, e.g. Achilles. PC shipments are down not because the Mac is beating them, but because Apple attacked from the bottom with much smaller devices, i.e. iPhone and iPad.

You can ignore those 'bottom racers' all you want, but we just saw sales rankings, and I must say I was surprised to see the S4, and Note 3 in prominent positions, so while Samsung does make a boatload of crappy devices it also makes some high end ones. Someone that buys a crappy Samsung phone today is more likely to buy a high end one in the future. You're foolish to believe otherwise.

I personally don't think Apple has much to worry about, but Samsung is becoming like Apple much faster than the other manufacturers are becoming like Samsung.
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post #34 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
 Someone that buys a crappy Samsung phone today is more likely to buy a high end one in the future. You're foolish to believe otherwise.

hmm.. someone who buys a crappy device from a brand is going to come back and spend even MORE money on that brand in the future to buy a higher end product.   Foolish to believe otherwise, you say!    

:wow: 

 

No doubt there is the term "foolish" somewhere here in your logical assertion, but I think the placement of that term is somehow not in the right spot. 


Edited by snova - 4/4/14 at 6:27pm
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post #35 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenwaves View Post

Sales team ... An image of sweaty, rumpled Glengarry-Glen Ross'rs fretting their quarterly iSales ...

Great movie! I wish I had seen the play.

1smile.gif
post #36 of 43
Why should Apple spend 14 billion on advertising like Samdung? I mean the phones sell themselves with little to know advertising from Apple. They get more free advertising than most phones because some website is either praising or bashing the phone which makes people run out and buy them...
I say chug along Samdung until you choke on your own feces.

The GS5 is already getting hammered over its crappy finger print scanner...LMAO LOVE IT
post #37 of 43
post #38 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

hmm.. someone who buys a crappy device from a brand is going to come back and spend even MORE money on that brand in the future to buy a higher end product.   Foolish to believe otherwise, you say!    
1eek.gif  

No doubt there is the term "foolish" somewhere here in your logical assertion, but I think the placement of that term is somehow not in the right spot. 

See the thing about having something crappy is that you don't know it's crappy. Only when you have something better do you realize what you had before sucked. How much better is the iPhone now compared to the first version?
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post #39 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by snova View Post

hmm.. someone who buys a crappy device from a brand is going to come back and spend even MORE money on that brand in the future to buy a higher end product.   Foolish to believe otherwise, you say!    
1eek.gif  

No doubt there is the term "foolish" somewhere here in your logical assertion, but I think the placement of that term is somehow not in the right spot. 

See the thing about having something crappy is that you don't know it's crappy. Only when you have something better do you realize what you had before sucked. How much better is the iPhone now compared to the first version?

:no:  at what point do you think we get to the "foolish" part in your assertion?

 

have a good weekend. my work here is done.

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post #40 of 43
Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
Is this really the kind of stuff Apple wants made public?

 

Is that their call?

 

2011 Strategy: ship iPad 2 with amazing hardware and software before our competitors even catch up with our current model

 

Done and done.

 
HDMI dongle (use for projection of demos below?)

 

Guess they (rightly) decided Apple TV works better for that.

 
Jasper:

Durango:
Telluride:

have LTE version in mid-2012

 

Yep, two years ahead of release. That’s how far they’re thinking.

 

Apple TV
- NBC, CBS, Viacom, HBO, ...
- where do we go from here?
- apps, browser, magic wand?  

 

Which leads me to believe they have this mess sorted out by now. :lol: 

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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