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Samsung's 'Beat Apple' memo: 'Threat from Apple extremely real and urgent' - Page 3

post #81 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipsy View Post

DED, this must be one of the most subjective interpretations of what is a normal market analysis PowerPoint ever. The slide is nothing more than that, every company will have slides like this (including Apple). And then such wording as 'Samsung's response to the innovative threat it saw in Apple's continually improving and strongly profitable..,' while the slide says nothing about Apple's innovation to be the threat (to be clear I'm not stating that Apple isn't an innovative company). This is clearly a slide about market analysis and brand recognition thus the threat is most likely Apple's market share and its iconic brand recognition.
One of your most desperate attempts to vilify of late I must say. I'm not a Samsung supporter but this seems to be a case of trying to get something out of nothing by loose and subjective interpretation.
P.s.: a company that wants to beat its biggest competitor, shocking! 1smile.gif

 

 YOU sound desperate. This is not subjective when you compared with ALL OTHER shenanigans Samsung pulled over since launch of the iPhone in 2007. Do your research 

post #82 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

What Apple - and the industry - means by focus groups is not questionnaires but watching people use the beta software. Or beta hardware. And revising. That they don't do.

 

Watch out, in the past I've caught a huge amount of flack for saying as much.  Brace yourself for countless posts claiming that you can't possibly have any clue about Apple's inner workings and development processes.

post #83 of 110
In the first trial part of the Samsung lawyers arguments was that it was just happenstance that things seemed identical. That was blown apart by similar memos. So it doesn't shock me that there's another one out there saying essentially the same Apple focus. Not very smart of them to be so focused on one company.

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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post #84 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by singularity View Post

If you class this as major evidence then samsung have nothing to worry about.
What?
post #85 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post

What Apple - and the industry - means by focus groups is not questionnaires but watching people use the beta software. Or beta hardware. And revising. That they don't do.

 

You can't possibly have any clue about Apple's inner workings and development processes. ;)

post #86 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


...snip...

Everybody is going to say battery life, but I routinely with heavy enough usage plug in at night at about 20%. I bet most people don't run out. So what good is another 10%? Would people notice, would they tell their friends? Would word of mouth of a 10% increase in battery life see the iPhone 6 sell vastly more? I doubt it.

...snip...

Exactly. If the battery lasts all day, that's all people care about. If it's not going to last two full days—and I don't see this in the foreseeable future—it will make absolutely no difference to people. Of course, spec hounds would crow if the battery's rated for 2 hours longer than you're going to need, but since most spec hounds are Fandroids and Android can't deliver that, that doesn't apply.
post #87 of 110
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Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


...snip...

Everybody is going to say battery life, but I routinely with heavy enough usage plug in at night at about 20%..... but since most spec hounds are Fandroids and Android can't deliver that, that doesn't apply.
and yet people on here keep bringing up things like the 64 bit chip, I'd say there are spec hounds are found in both camps. Just attributing it to a side you happen to dislike is being disingenuous and shows blind bias.
post #88 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


I routinely with heavy enough usage plug in at night at about 20%. I bet most people don't run out.

Great point.  Because you have 20% battery life when you plug your phone in at night, then most people are in the exact same position.

 

Now- if someone a few posts after you say they run out 3 hours before they get the chance to plug it in, but they bet most people also run out- then who should I believe?

 

 

Basically, I'm saying- leave your anecdotal information out of the discussion, because it's useless.

 

 

 

Regardless- it will be guaranteed that Apple will mention the battery life of the next Macbook, iPad and iPhone and be sure to point if battery life stayed the same or improved- and make a big deal about it either way.  Because, guess what?  It is a big deal.

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post #89 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by singularity View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


...snip...

Everybody is going to say battery life, but I routinely with heavy enough usage plug in at night at about 20%..... but since most spec hounds are Fandroids and Android can't deliver that, that doesn't apply.
and yet people on here keep bringing up things like the 64 bit chip, I'd say there are spec hounds are found in both camps. Just attributing it to a side you happen to dislike is being disingenuous and shows blind bias.

Mine starts here....

Bullshit. If you can't tell the difference between a revolutionary change like 64-bit technology in a mobile processor and meaningless bullet points like the Fandroids cream their jeans over, but don't mean squat to an actual user, then you're an idiot.

Lemme guess, if some Android OEM had delivered a 64-bit phone first, it would be the greatest thing since fire, amirite?

...I tried to edit twice. This is outside the quote on the form. I don't know what's up.
post #90 of 110

I propose AI start up a "beer fund". It works like this:

 

People make a guess as to how many new troll accounts will appear during the time the entire Samsung trial is on. When you make a guess you agree to contribute a 6-pack of beer. If you want to make more than one guess, you can, each guess costs one 6-pack. Only members with 500+ posts can guess.

 

When the verdict is handed down, we wait another 2 days for the aftershocks to go away (all the people still bitching about why the verdict was wrong). Then we count up how many new accounts there were.

 

Someone goes home with a LOT of beer.

Author of The Fuel Injection Bible

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post #91 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post


Exactly. If the battery lasts all day, that's all people care about. If it's not going to last two full days—and I don't see this in the foreseeable future—it will make absolutely no difference to people. Of course, spec hounds would crow if the battery's rated for 2 hours longer than you're going to need, but since most spec hounds are Fandroids and Android can't deliver that, that doesn't apply.

 

I fly frequently for work and see many more iPhone users scrambling for charging stations than any other smartphone. Most of my friends own an iPhone and love just about everything about it with the exception of the battery life. Longer battery life would make a huge difference for them. FYI - I charge my LG G2 about every 45 - 50 hours.


Edited by R2D2 - 4/7/14 at 2:03pm
post #92 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by singularity View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac-sochist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


...snip...

Everybody is going to say battery life, but I routinely with heavy enough usage plug in at night at about 20%..... but since most spec hounds are Fandroids and Android can't deliver that, that doesn't apply.
and yet people on here keep bringing up things like the 64 bit chip, I'd say there are spec hounds are found in both camps. Just attributing it to a side you happen to dislike is being disingenuous and shows blind bias.

Bullshit. If you can't tell the difference between a revolutionary change like 64-bit technology in a mobile processor and meaningless bullet points like the Fandroids cream their jeans over, but don't mean squat to an actual user, then you're an idiot.

Lemme guess, if some Android OEM had delivered a 64-bit phone first, it would be the greatest thing since fire, amirite?
if some android OEM had got a 64 bit CPU in their phone first it would mean absolutely nothing to me and most other people. Going to 64 bit isn't revolutionary its evolutionary imho . it was going to happen at some time. Apple got their first, kudos to them.
The first iPhone was revolutionary it changed everything but 64 bit isn't going to set the world alight. Its something that's not exciting me maybe if there was a killer app that excited me I'd be running to the shop to trade in my phone but not at the moment. Ymmv
post #93 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Great point.  Because you have 20% battery life when you plug your phone in at night, then most people are in the exact


Basically, I'm saying- leave your anecdotal information out of the discussion, because it's useless.



Regardless- it will be guaranteed that Apple will mention the battery life of the next Macbook, iPad and iPhone and be sure to point if battery life stayed the same or improved- and make a big deal about it either way.  Because, guess what?  It is a big deal.

They already do mention it. 10 hours video playback. 10 hours voice calls. 10 hours wifi or LTE. 8 hours 3G. 250 hours standby. Is that non anecdotal enough for you? Or did you think I barely use my phone?

http://www.apple.com/uk/iphone/compare/


Apples claims correlates with my usage. About 20% left after 18 hours fairly high usage. I watch videos going to work and back. Listen to music and make calls.

A user clearly - unless Apple are lying - hasto be on the phone or downloading all day to run low during the day. So my experience is normal and 10% won't matter a damn.

Of course they are running to stand still. If they increase the memory or CPU they need to have better batteries to have the same general battery life. That's what they care about. Not longer life but the same with better more resource hungry internals.
Edited by asdasd - 4/7/14 at 2:21pm
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post #94 of 110
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Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


That comment does get kind of old. BTW there's no longer "a large number of internals" made by Samsung. Apple has been slowly whittling it down for a few years now.

 

It may be old, but still true.  Samsung may not be supplying Apple with as many components as before, but it's still a sizeable amount and represents a good amount of revenue.  I only take objections to the people about how they would never buy a Samsung product because they are such a shady company.  If ethics really were an issue, then they wouldn't be buying a iPhone.  For many of these posters, ethics are only an issue until it becomes inconvenient.  

post #95 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post
 
Originally Posted by Brandon Powell View Post

Whats "non-upgradeable" about android? And what phone do you have?

 

Spare us.

 

Comparing recent flagship models:

 

Galaxy S3 - released May 2012, still awaiting official update to the current Android 4.4 KitKat.

 

iPhone 4S - released Oct 2011, officially updatable to the current iOS 7.1

 

iPhone 5 - released Oct 2012, officially updatable to the current iOS 7.1.

iPhone 4 - released June 2010, officially updatable to the current iOS 7.1.

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post #96 of 110
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post

I fly frequently for work and see many more iPhone users scrambling for charging stations than any other smartphone. Most of my friends own an iPhone and love just about everything about it with the exception of the battery life. Longer battery life would make a huge difference for them. FYI - I charge my LG G2 about every 45 - 50 hours.
Oh, well that is simply because iPhone owners use their phones more. 😉
post #97 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahhbriley View Post
 

To me, one of the biggest differences between the Apple and Samsung memos being revealed are that Apple's state that they want to catchup where they are behind, and leapfrog competition in other areas. Samsung's documents reveal that they want to keep copying Apple and iPhone specifically. Not just catch up, but copy. 

Its not because Samsung lacks ideas of their own. It seems to me that someone in Samsung holds Apple's design at higher level then their own internal ones. This has got to be frustrating to engineers within Samsung. 

 

"look what I have been working on sir.  quiet! the adults are talking" 

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post #98 of 110
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Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

You'd be better off buying a 5s for "communication" and an iPad Mini for entertainment.  Bigger & Better screen, faster- essentially better statistically in every way- and you'd save about $300 also.

Again- as disgusting as Samsung is at business- I, personally, wouldn't support them.

Exactly.  And Apple has already addressed quite a bit.

Here is what we should examine:
1. Battery Life.  Is this not a constant improvement Apple tries to build on every year?
2. Improve Maps.  Locationary, HopStop, Embark, BroadMap. Obviously, Apple feels this is top priority and they should improve their mapping too considering these companies were acquired within the past 9 months.
3. Bigger screen.  I'm an Apple homer- you know that.  That's my number one want on my list.  I doubt I'm alone in this.
4. Lightning- people bitching because they don't know better.  Lightning is the future- people need to deal. I agree- dumb.
5. Customize Look/Function.  Yawn.  How long have we heard this?  I agree- dumb.
6. Improve Siri.  Again- with the purchase of Novauris and Cue- it's looking like Apple is also interested in improving this substantially.
7. More durable/less fragile.  No thanks.  This is the dumbest of the list.

So 2 are proven high importance items to Apple via acquisition.  Battery life is a no brainer.  And Bigger screen- depending on where you fall.  Lets just call that neutral.  So 3 dumb and 3 that are proven extremely important to Apple doesn't mean "The rest of the list"

Whilst I don't take particular issue with your thoughts, TS is right, too, because all the things on this list are unoriginal. Apple don't need anyone asking for these things. That's what Steve Jobs meant when he said that Apple doesn't do market research. He meant that there's no point asking people for something that they can't see. Market research would never have produced the iPhone, otherwise Blackberry or some other mobile company would have come up with it first.

Market research can be a useful tool to get a lie of the land, but Apple are never going to base their vision on it, which is much to the benefit of everyone.
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post #99 of 110
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post

I fly frequently for work and see many more iPhone users scrambling for charging stations than any other smartphone. Most of my friends own an iPhone and love just about everything about it with the exception of the battery life. Longer battery life would make a huge difference for them. FYI - I charge my LG G2 about every 45 - 50 hours.

That means nothing. You may not use your phone as much as they do. My old Sammy dumb phone lasted a week before charging. It doesn't mean its battery life is better.
post #100 of 110
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Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post


None of Apple's leaked documents were shocking either. But they got plenty of attention. So I don't see why this doesn't deserve the same.

I concur.

post #101 of 110
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Originally Posted by Brandon Powell View Post
 

Whats "non-upgradeable" about android? And what phone do you have?

LOL.

post #102 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by peteo View Post
 

Going to weight in on this. I think this is an important topic about the way the media has been able to spin apple as losing its innovation spirit and soon will be come less of a presence in the future of tech I don't believe this)

 

The fact is Steve is gone. People listened to him. He had the media's ear like Bill gates, Bezos, Page, Dell does etc... The want to hear them talk, they know they built something out of nothing and changed the world. Tim cook is a great CEO, but he did not do this. The media does not think of him the same way, and neither does the public.

 

Case in point. Do you hear any thing about antenna gate any more? Steve took it an made it a non issue, people listened to him when he talked. They took him @ his word because he already had proven him self. Now that was on a product with one of its primary uses was spun to have a"Flaw".

 

Now lets talk Maps. I even still do not use maps, even though the few times I did it worked pretty well. I still go to google maps. The letter that TC wrote did not effectively change the message. People did not really care what TC had to say on the issue, it was moot because he does not have the same history as tech "visionaries". In short he hasn't proven that he can change the world like Steve did over and over again.

 

I think apple as a company is doing incredible. Their devices are great I use them every day. But Tim cook has hard shoes to fill. He needs to change the world for the media/general public to really believe what he says about innovation and the future and that apple can still be real game changers.

 

I hate to say this but we would not be having this discussion if Steve was still around, its just a fact. He's not so apple now has something to prove.

One of the interesting things though is that Tim Cook said in an interview that Steve told him "I don't want you ever asking what I would do".

Jobs told him this because he had a lot of confidence in Tim Cook and selected him personally as his successor.

post #103 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipsy View Post
 

That's pretty well known that most of Samsung's marketshare is cheaper handsets, but hey there is a need for them to.

 

Quite some of the innovation credit for 64bit needs to go to ARM. It's their AArch64 that makes the A7 64bit, if ARM didn't switch from AArch32 to AArch64 then the A7 wouldn't have been 64bit. Meanwhile Apple does deserve a lot of credit for finishing the chip so early and having the software 64bit ready in such short amount of time, I must say that was quite a feat.

 

Samsung definitely often is a fast follower but to say they always are is wrong. f.e. Phablet format.

I'm not a Samsung fan either (although I also use Android but my prefered devices are Motorola and Nexus devices) but can't help it to correct things that seem wrong to me :s

Actually none of the Credit goes to ARM well maybe a little.  Apple is an ARM instruction set licensee (licenses the writes to build chips that understand ARM code, see this).  The do not license off the shelf ARM Core designs (Apple stopped using off the shelf generic arm cores with the A4). (Samsung and Qualcomm do).  There is a huge difference between the two.  Samsung and Qualcomm take off the shelf cores designed by ARM and use them as is (Qualcomm has done a few semi custom cores on ARM but has currently gone back to using generic).  Apple on the other hand custom designs there own cores from the ground up to run the arm instruction set.  Apples custom chips are faster and a lot more efficient that off the shelf generic ARM designs.  For more in depth see this.  Apples Swift (there custom A6 ARMv7) and Cyclone (there custom A7 ARMv8) are miles and away ahead of anything ARM itself puts out for generic off the shelf cores. And ARM has no hand in designing them at all.  Neither does Samsung or anyone else (this being a common myth among Android Fans). They are solely designed by Apple alone in house.  Samsung merely manufactures Apples design for apple.  The only thing ARM does deserve credit for is the code for the instruction set to run ARMv8a.  Not the chips Apple built. (Just for note too Apple was one of the three founders of ARM, including the original founder Acorn Computers and VLSI Technology which formed Acorn RISC Machines Ltd. later shortened to just ARM Ltd.).


Edited by Mechanic - 4/7/14 at 6:43pm
post #104 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Steve Jobs specifically said:
"We do no market research."
March of 2008. It's a sound-bite world and that's the sound-bite. How do you think he hoped for that to be perceived? Probably just the way a lot of folks did, literally. Of course it's not actually true, but Mr. Jobs was a marketing genius and knew how to work a crowd. Apple presentations and interviews will never be the same without him.

Schiller was just as misleading if not more so in his testimony from 2012's trial IMO as shown by documents revealed in this latest case.
He testified under oath "We don't use any customer surveys, focus groups, or typical things of that nature. That plays no role in the creation of the products."

He then went on to say "you never ask people 'what features do you want in a new product". Again misleading if not downright dishonest since Apple certainly asks what buyers would like to see done differently on the iPhone as shown in documents from the latest trial.

It's not misleading or dishonest in a trial about the originality of their patented designs. It just again shows that you refuse to take their definition of customer surveys and focus testing to mean asking what kind of new products customers want in future. Features like a bigger screen or longer life battery are not patentable inventions.

They didn't ask potential customers if they wanted a revolutionary touchscreen phone with slide to unlock, momentum scrolling and rubber-banding, what shape or design it should have and they didn't with the iPad either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Baker 
The e-mail exchanges Shiller has had with Tim and also with their advertising company of 16 years suggests that this guy is feckless and inept. He bemoans the fact to his ad company that Samsung is getting a lot of traction in their bashing campaign against Apple despite the fact that Apple has better products. Then he suggests to Tim that it might be a good idea to fire Apple's ad company. But, does he do it? No. Does he figure-out how to respond to Samsung's bashing campaign? No. He just allows Apple to sit there as Samsung's personal punching bag. No big tech company keeps the same ad agency for 16 years. Usually they are fired every 2-3 years to bring in a new company with fresh ideas. Not in Apple's case. This guy Shiller has to go. Apple's marketing leadership has been atrocious and this trial has exposed Shiller for the the inept buffoon that he is.

Hardly, there's a good reason they've been their ad agency for so long and there's no reason to drop them on a whim and be stuck with an inferior agency. Phil is one of the core people at Apple trying to do the right thing for the company. And they haven't become Samsung's personal punching bag. Samsung has been shown as the fraud that they are, ripping multiple companies off and all they have are cheap marketing tactics that play on people's irrational hatred of Apple. When they try to do things on their own, they fall flat:

http://www.ibtimes.com/wearable-technology-flop-chinese-counterfeiters-say-galaxy-gear-doesnt-sell-well-mass-market-1543006
post #105 of 110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post

I fly frequently for work and see many more iPhone users scrambling for charging stations than any other smartphone. Most of my friends own an iPhone and love just about everything about it with the exception of the battery life. Longer battery life would make a huge difference for them. FYI - I charge my LG G2 about every 45 - 50 hours.
 
Originally Posted by jungmark View Post


That means nothing. You may not use your phone as much as they do. My old Sammy dumb phone lasted a week before charging. It doesn't mean its battery life is better.

Recently, while stuck at Laguardia for over six hours during a storm, my coworkers (all with iPhones) ended up deferring to me and my phone  to get updates because their batteries were dying. During that time I had to make calls, send emails and text notifying people that I would be a no-show that day, all along pulling up live weather radar and air traffic updates. I travel, therefore I use my phone - a lot and more than most (including iPhone users).

 

Edit: I must add that I only got about 12 hours of battery life that day. 


Edited by R2D2 - 4/7/14 at 7:45pm
post #106 of 110
I have always been able to understand Samsung's actions, no matter how blatantly and embarrassingly sleazy they are. They are a cornered rat and will do anything at all to keep from getting crushed. Anything. What I can't understand are the media pundits who allow themselves to be played by Samsung and in the process sacrifice their own professionalism, self respect, and dignity. That is very sad. Why they've sold out so easily is still a mystery. I personally think a lot of it goes back to the "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" campaign that made PC buyers feel like they've been royally screwed by Microsoft and the WIntel juggernaut who they blindly trusted for so many years, not knowing that BSODs and other such crap taken for granted in the PC world was totally unacceptable. Maybe Apple could have said it in a less smarmy way? But throwing in with Samsung and selling out by throwing some of the finest American ingenuity and innovation under the bus as payback for a heavy handed ad campaign is unconscionable.
Edited by DewMe - 4/8/14 at 6:36am
post #107 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by peteo View Post
 

 

I hate to say this but we would not be having this discussion if Steve was still around, its just a fact. He's not so apple now has something to prove.

 

It's worth remembering that this discussion really started long ago, well before Steve Jobs passed away.  Remember the early commentary about how iPad was "just a bigger iPhone"?  The antenna issues with iPhone 4 were somewhat exacerbated by Steve Jobs' infamous remark that people simply "aren't holding it right".

 

Jobs was really forced to turn around and face the issue head on, and I think the way he handled that was good - but risky.

 

Tim Cook's response regarding Maps was entirely appropriate and - dare I say it - humble.  I think it was the correct approach.  You could argue that Apple hasn't gone to much effort to promote its mapping option subsequently, however, Apple Maps (as an issue) is really not on the same level as the iPhone 4 antenna issues, in terms of public perception and potential risk for Apple.  Apple could advise people to use an alternative mapping service in the short term, but they weren't going to advise people to use an alternative phone!

 

There is a strong sense in which it will take some time for Tim Cook to "prove" himself in the eyes of many critics.  But honestly, I think he has a pretty solid track record so far (and it's only early days yet!)

post #108 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It's not misleading or dishonest in a trial about the originality of their patented designs. It just again shows that you refuse to take their definition of customer surveys and focus testing to mean asking what kind of new products customers want in future.

Ah, what's the definition of 'is" then? I got it.
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post #109 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It's not misleading or dishonest in a trial about the originality of their patented designs. It just again shows that you refuse to take their definition of customer surveys and focus testing to mean asking what kind of new products customers want in future.

Ah, what's the definition of 'is" then? I got it.

It's not about definitions but context. Keep the phrases in their context and you'll get a better idea of the intended meaning.
post #110 of 110
@ chipsy, "DED, this must be one of the most subjective interpretations of what is a normal market analysis PowerPoint ever. The slide is nothing more than that, every company will have slides like this"

The key here is not that a company wants to beat the competition, sure they all do, its the direction.

Copy Apple, copy Apple, copy Apple. As Steve would say, Steal the idea of making a better phone that people will love and develop it, don't just copy our innovation. Make some of your own.

What is doubly sad about samsung, they think that by claiming they come up with these ideas, that they really do. What does samsung do when Apple is not selling the next new thing...... make things bigger. Wow. Just wow.
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