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Should the 9/11 museum drop all mention of "Islamic" terrorism?

Poll Results: Is the 9/11 museum right to remove any mention of "Islamic" terror in relation to the 9/11 attack?

Poll expired: Sep 10, 2014  
  • 64% (11)
    No
  • 29% (5)
    Yes
  • 5% (1)
    Maybe
  • 0% (0)
    Other (please explain in comments)
17 Total Votes  
post #1 of 80
Thread Starter 

Islam is, and always has been an extremely violent, brutal and political religion, but not all muslim's want to spread violence through Jihad. Many, especially those in the West, don't, and we need to encourage that. They want to bring up their kids well and in safety, just like everyone else. They don't want to be seen as a scary enemy and live in fear. So should the 9/11 museum remove any mention of "Islamic" terrorism?

 

"“The screening of this film in its present state would greatly offend our local Muslim believers as well as any foreign Muslim visitor to the museum,” wrote Sheikh Mostafa Elazabawy. “Unsophisticated visitors who do not understand the difference between Al Qaeda and Muslims may come away with a prejudiced view of Islam, leading to antagonism and even confrontation toward Muslim believers near the site.” The sinister “moderate” professor Akbar Ahmed adds: “The terrorists need to be condemned and remembered for what they did. But when you associate their religion with what they did, then you are automatically including, by association, one and a half billion people who had nothing to do with these actions and who ultimately the U.S. would not want to unnecessarily alienate.”

 

“Many thanks to God, for his kind gesture, and choosing us to perform the act of Jihad for his cause and to defend Islam and Muslims. Therefore, killing you and fighting you, destroying you and terrorizing you, responding back to your attacks, are all considered to be great legitimate duty in our religion….We ask to be near to God, we fight you and destroy you and terrorize you. The Jihad in god’s [sic] cause is a great duty in our religion.” — The “9/11 Shura Council” (that’s what they called themselves; they are the masterminds of the 9/11 plot: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ramzi bin As-Shibh, Walid bin ‘Attash, Mustafa Ahmed AI-Hawsawi, and ‘Ali ‘abd Al-’Aziz ‘Ali)"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/muslims-enraged-over-al-qaeda-video-at-911-museum-museum-removes-mention-of-islamic-terrorism-from-its-website

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #2 of 80
Thread Starter 

Some interesting poll numbers to bare in mind-

 

  • Poll of Islamic world, Feb 2002
    • The majority (61 percent) of Muslims worldwide believe Arabs did not carry out 9/11. Only 18 percent believe they did.
    • The majority (77 percent) of Muslims worldwide oppose the liberation of Afghanistan.
  • Poll of Egyptians, September 2002
    • The majority (52 percent) of Egyptians support the Sept 11th killings.
    • Only 19 percent think Islamists did it, despite the fact the operation was led by an Egyptian! 39 percent think Israel did it!

     

  • What the World Thinks in 2002 - survey, December 4, 2002
    • The majority of Lebanese support suicide bombing.
    • The majority of Nigerians who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
    • The majority of Bangladeshis who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
    • 47 percent of Jordanians who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.
    • 43 percent of Pakistanis who expressed an opinion support suicide bombing.

     

  • Pew survey, May 2003, reported in International Herald Tribune, June 3, 2003 (here and here).
    • The majority in Morocco, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority, Kuwait, Lebanon, Indonesia and Pakistan want to end the state of Israel.
    • The majority in Indonesia, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan and the Palestinian Authority express some support for Osama bin Laden.
    • The majority in Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority said the Iraqis were worse off without the genocidal tyrant Saddam Hussein.
    • The majority in Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, Lebanon, Jordan, Morocco and the Palestinian Authority were disappointed that Iraq did not put up more of a fight.

     

  • A Year After Iraq War - survey, March 16, 2004
    • The majority in Jordan support suicide bombing of Jews.
    • The majority in Morocco support suicide bombing of Jews.
    • The majority who expressed an opinion in Pakistan support suicide bombing of Jews.
    • The majority in Pakistan and Jordan have a favourable view of Osama bin Laden.
    • The majority who expressed an opinion in Morocco have a favourable view of Osama bin Laden.
    • The majority in Jordan support suicide bombing of the American liberators of Iraq.
    • The majority in Morocco support suicide bombing of the American liberators of Iraq.
    • The majority who expressed an opinion in Pakistan support suicide bombing of the American liberators of Iraq.

     

  • Apparent decrease in Islamic support for terror, 2005.
    • There are some problems with the survey. The survey only asked about suicide attacks on civilians in general. If it asked about suicide attacks on Jews, or on American civilians, I'm sure the numbers would have been much higher.
    • The majority in Jordan support suicide bombing and other violence against civilians.
    • The majority in Morocco support suicide bombing in Iraq.
    • The majority in Pakistan and Jordan support Osama bin Laden.
    • The responses are confused. How can you support bin Laden or the Iraqi resistance if you don't support attacks on civilians?
    • I guess it's no surprise to discover that people who support the jihad are morons.

     

  • Survey, July 2006. 40 percent of Indonesian Muslims would use violence against those blaspheming Islam.

     

  • Poll in Egypt, reported Sept 2006
    • Which country do you most hate? Top answer - USA.
    • In which country would you most like to live? Top answer - USA.

     

  • Survey of Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan and Indonesia, Apr 2007
    • 91 percent in Egypt support attacks on US troops in Iraq.
    • 91 percent in Egypt support attacks on US troops in Afghanistan.
    • 68 percent in Morocco support attacks on US troops in Iraq.
    • 61 percent in Morocco support attacks on US troops in Afghanistan.
    • 25 percent in Egypt support Al Qaeda attacks. A further 31 percent say they oppose its methods but agree with Al Qaeda's attitudes.
    • 40 percent of Egyptians have "positive" feelings towards Bin Laden.

       

    • Only 2 percent in Pakistan say Al Qaeda carried out 9/11. 27 percent say the U.S. government did it. 7 percent say Israel did it.
    • 29 percent of Egyptians say Israel carried out 9/11.

       

    • 79 percent in Pakistan agree "strongly" or "somewhat" that there should be strict sharia in all Muslim countries.
    • 76 percent in Morocco agree "strongly" or "somewhat" that there should be strict sharia in all Muslim countries.
    • 74 percent in Egypt agree "strongly" or "somewhat" that there should be strict sharia in all Muslim countries.
    • There are some positive things in the above survey too. I have just highlighted the most disturbing findings. The Islamic world clearly has a long way to go.

     

  • Pew Survey of Muslim countries, July 2007pdf.gif Clear drop in support for Al Qaeda and suicide bombing. The Bin Laden revolution may never happen. The jihadis may be dying for nothing. Muslim societies continue, it is true, to have large numbers of supporters of Islamic terror. But the civilized Muslims may be slowly winning the argument.
    • Back in 2002:
      • 74 percent of Lebanese supported suicide bombing of civilians.
      • 47 percent of Nigerians supported suicide bombing of civilians.
      • 44 percent in Bangladesh supported suicide bombing of civilians.
      • 43 percent of Jordanians supported suicide bombing of civilians.
      • 33 percent of Pakistanis supported suicide bombing of civilians.
    • Now in 2007:
      • 42 percent of Nigerians support suicide bombing of civilians.
      • 34 percent of Lebanese support suicide bombing of civilians.
      • 23 percent of Jordanians support suicide bombing of civilians.
      • 20 percent in Bangladesh support suicide bombing of civilians.
      • 9 percent of Pakistanis support suicide bombing of civilians.
      • 8 percent of Egyptians support suicide bombing of civilians.
    • Back in 2003:
      • 72 percent of Palestinians supported Bin Laden.
      • 59 percent of Indonesians supported Bin Laden.
      • 56 percent of Jordanians supported Bin Laden.
      • 46 percent of Pakistanis supported Bin Laden.
      • 20 percent of Lebanese supported Bin Laden.
    • Now in 2007:
      • 57 percent of Palestinians support Bin Laden.
      • 41 percent of Indonesians support Bin Laden.
      • 38 percent of Pakistanis support Bin Laden.
      • 20 percent of Jordanians support Bin Laden.
      • 1 percent of Lebanese support Bin Laden.

     

  • Survey of Muslim world, Feb 2009 has all sorts of horrible stats:
    • 76 percent of Pakistanis want strict sharia in every Islamic country.
    • 76 percent of Moroccans want strict sharia in every Islamic country.
    • 90 percent of Palestinians support killing American troops in Iraq. And yet America is giving the Palestinians $1 billionin aid!
    • 83 percent of Egyptians support killing American troops in Iraq. And yet America gives Egypt $2 billion in aid every year!
    • 68 percent of Moroccans support killing American troops in Iraq.
    • 40 percent in Turkey support killing American troops in Iraq. And yet America is pushing for its "ally" Turkey to be let into the EU.
    • 83 percent of Egyptians support killing American troops in Afghanistan.
    • 61 percent of Moroccans support killing American troops in Afghanistan.
    • 78 percent of Palestinians have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.
    • 69 percent of Egyptians have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.
    • 53 percent of Moroccans have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.
    • 51 percent of Pakistanis have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.

     

  • Survey of Muslim world, Sept 2009
    • 68 percent of Palestinian Muslims said suicide bombings of civilians were justifiable.
    • 51 percent of Shiite Lebanese Muslims said suicide bombings of civilians were justifiable.
    • 43 percent of Nigerian Muslims said suicide bombings of civilians were justifiable.
    • 38 percent of all Lebanese Muslims said suicide bombings of civilians were justifiable.
    • 54 percent of Nigerian Muslims expressed confidence in bin Laden to do the right thing.
    • 52 percent of Palestinian Muslims expressed confidence in bin Laden to do the right thing.
    • 28 percent of Jordanian Muslims expressed confidence in bin Laden to do the right thing.

     

  • Poll, Feb 2010
    • 61 percent of Palestinians support Hezbollah.
    • 51 percent of Jordanians support Hezbollah.
    • Amazingly, only 35 percent in Lebanon support Hezbollah. They have to live under them!
    • 56 percent of Jordanians support Hamas.
    • 52 percent of Egyptians support Hamas.
    • Amazingly, only 37 percent in Gaza support Hamas. They have to live under them!
    • 54 percent of Nigerians support Bin Laden.
    • 51 percent of Palestinians support Bin Laden.
    • 45 percent of Palestinians support Ahmadinejad.
    • 43 percent of Indonesians support Ahmadinejad.

     

  • Poll of Middle Eastern Muslims, Dec 2010
    • 86 percent of Jordanians support death for anyone who leaves Islam.
    • 84 percent of Egyptians support death for anyone who leaves Islam.
    • 76 percent of Pakistanis support death for anyone who leaves Islam.
    • 82 percent of Egyptians support stoning for adultery.
    • 82 percent of Pakistanis support stoning for adultery.
    • 70 percent of Jordanians support stoning for adultery.
    • 49 percent of Nigerian Muslims approve of Al Qaeda.
    • 34 percent of Jordanians approve of Al Qaeda.

     

  • Poll, May 2011
    • 51 per cent of Pakistanis feel "grief" at the death of Osama bin Laden.
    • And yet: Poll, Spring 2011, shows only 8 percent of Pakistanis support suicide bombing of civilians.
    • This must be a reaction to the tidal wave of jihadist violence that Pakistan has been suffering in recent years, a real example of "blowback" from the Islamic extremism that Pakistan has supported since its foundation in 1947.

http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.world.html

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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #3 of 80

The museum (and history books) should, by all means, emphasize that the criminals of 9-11 were islamist jihadists.

 

Also: museums (and history books) regarding European history should also emphasize that the crusades were pursued and supported by the Christian religion.

 

Islam is guilty, but it's not like Christianity is innocent.  Neither one is more or less violent than the other, they just enact their violence at different points in time.

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #4 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post
 

Islam is guilty, but it's not like Christianity is innocent.  Neither one is more or less violent than the other, they just enact their violence at different points in time.

 

Your first sentence is fine. The second, not so much.

 

 

Condemning pockets of followers is one thing. But if you're going to indict an entire religion, you have to look to the founder.

 

The founder of Christianity condemned violence, resisted calls to overthrow government and invented the "turn the other cheek" metaphor.

He said His kingdom wasn't of this world, and preached to love your enemies. In an occupied country that despised their immoral occupiers.

 

The founder of Islam raised a sword against anyone who opposed him and told his followers to do the same.

 

I'd say one is naturally more violent than the other.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #5 of 80

nah ... Constantine was a violent enough man and wasn't really all that fond of "turning the other cheek".

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #6 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post
 

nah ... Constantine was a violent enough man and wasn't really all that fond of "turning the other cheek".

Constantine was more tolerant of other religions than at least half the Muslim's alive today, and his reign was almost exactly 1,700 years ago.

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post #7 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

Constantine was more tolerant of other religions than at least half the Muslim's alive today, and his reign was almost exactly 1,700 years ago.

yes, but as the founder of Christianity, he doesn't exactly fit Frank777's description.

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #8 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post
 

yes, but as the founder of Christianity, he doesn't exactly fit Frank777's description.

He wasn't the founder, but did of course spread Christianity more than anyone up till that point. He killed 3,000 Christians because he disagreed with their interpretations, so I doubt I, or many people today, would think he was the kind of Christian they could relate to. That 3,000 was more Christians than had been murdered during the whole time of the Roman empire, up until that point.

 

Christians have no doubt often caused harm. It's not in the teachings to do so though, unlike the teachings of Islam-

 

Differences Between Muhammad and Jesus

Muhammad...

Jesus...

Said Allah hates those who don't accept Islam.
(Qur'an 30:45, 3:32, 22:38)
Said God loves everyone.  
(John 3:16)
"I have been commanded to fight 
against people till they testify that there
 is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad
 is the messenger of Allah"

(Muslim 1:33)
"He who lives by the sword 
will die by the sword."

(Matthew 26:52)
Stoned women for adultery.
(Muslim 4206)
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
(John 8:7)
Permitted stealing from unbelievers.
(Bukhari 44:668, Ibn Ishaq 764)
"Thou shalt not steal."
(Matthew 19:18)
Permitted lying.
(Sahih Muslim 6303, Bukhari 49:857)
"Thou shalt not bear false witness."
(Matthew 19:18)
Owned and traded slaves.
(Sahih Muslim 3901)
Neither owned nor traded slaves.
Beheaded 800 Jewish men and boys.
(Sahih Muslim 4390)
Beheaded no one.
Murdered those who insulted him.
(Bukhari 56:369, 4:241)
Preached forgiveness.
(Matthew 18:21-22, 5:38)
"If then anyone transgresses 
the prohibition against you, 
Transgress ye likewise against him"
(Qur'an 2:194)
"If someone strikes you on the right 
cheek, turn to him the other also."
(Matthew 5:39)
Jihad in the way of Allah elevates one's position in Paradise by a hundred fold.
(Muslim 4645)
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for 
they will be called Sons of God"
(Matthew 5:9)
Married 13 wives and kept sex slaves.
(Bukhari 5:268, Qur'an 33:50)
Was celibate.
Slept with a 9-year-old child.
(Sahih Muslim 3309, Bukhari 58:236)
Did not have sex with children.
Ordered the murder of women.
(Ibn Ishaq 819, 995)
Never harmed a woman. 
"O you who believe!  Fight those of the
 unbelievers who are near to you 
and let them find in you hardness."

(Qur'an 9:123)
"Blessed are the meek, for 
they shall inherit the earth."

(Matthew 5:5)
Ordered 65 military campaigns 
and raids in his last 10 years. 
(Ibn Ishaq )
Ordered no military campaigns, nor 
offered any approval of war or violence.  
 
Killed captives taken in battle.
(Ibn Ishaq 451)
Never took captives.
Never killed anyone.
Encouraged his men to rape enslaved women.
(Abu Dawood 2150, Qur'an 4:24)
Never encouraged rape.
Never enslaved women. 
Demanded captured slaves and
a fifth of all other loot taken in war.
(Qur'an 8:41)
"The Son of Man came not 
to be served, but to serve.
"
(Matthew 20:28)
Was never tortured, but tortured others.
(Muslim 4131, Ibn Ishaq 436, 595, 734, 764)
Suffered torture, but never tortured anyone.
"And fight them until there is no more persecution and religion is only for Allah"
(Qur'an 8:39)
"Love your enemies and pray 
for those who persecute you
"
(Matthew 5:44)
Blessed the brutal murder of a half-blind man
(al-Tabari 1440)
Healed a blind man
(Mark 8:28)
Ordered a slave to build the very pulpit 
from which he preached Islam.
(Bukhari 47:743)
Washed his disciples feet.
(John 13:5)
What are the Greatest Commandments?
"Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause" 
(Muslim 1:149)
What are the Greatest Commandments? 
"Love God and love thy neighbor as thyself."
(Matthew 22:34-40)
Demanded the protection of armed bodyguards, even in a house of worship
(Qur'an 4:102)
Chastised anyone attempting 
to defend him with force.
(John 18:10-12)
Died fat and wealthy from what was 
taken from others in war or 
demanded from others in tribute.
Demanded nothing for himself.  
Died without possessions.
Advocated crucifying others.
(Qur'an 5:33, Muslim 16:4131)
Was crucified himself.
According to his followers: 
Had others give their lives for him.
(Sahih Muslim 4413)
According to his followers: 
Gave his life for others.
(John 18:11 and elsewhere)
 

Differences Between 
Early Muslims and Early Christians

Muhammad's Companions...

Jesus' Disciples...

Lived as warriors. Lived like harmless hippies.
Slew and persecuted religious minorities. Were slain and persecuted
 as a religious minority.
Emphasis on Jihad (the way of Muhammad)

"He who fights that Allah's word should 
be superior fights in Allah's cause"

(Bukhari 53:355)
Emphasis on Evangelism (the way of Jesus)

"Go ye into all the world and preach 
the gospel to every creature"

(Matthew 15:16)

Attacked and conquered the populations in
parts of 28 modern countries in just the first
three decades following Muhammad's death.

Did not resort to violence of any sort, 
despite tremendous persecution.

Declared holy war on the people of five 
major world religions in just the first 
100 years following Muhammad's death.

Went centuries without declaring 'holy war'.

Plundered and lived off the wealth of others. Gave away their possessions to those in need.
(Acts 2:44-45)
Captured and enslaved non-Muslim people. Considered themselves to be slaves of others.

Waged war to keep members from leaving
 the religion.  Put apostates to death.

No record of aggression toward apostates.

Muhammad's own family members quickly 
fell into armed warfare against each other.

Jesus' disciples never resorted to violence
against one another (or anyone else).

First 240 Years: 
11 of the first 32 caliphs were
murdered by fellow Muslims.

First 240 Years: 
14 of the first 25 popes were martyred by
 pagans (none by fellow Christians).

Caliphs were polygamous and maintained  harems of hundreds of captured sex slaves. Popes were expected to be celibate.
Islamic mosques sustained by taxes forced from subjugated non-Muslims (the jizya). Christian churches sustained
by voluntary tithes from Christians.
 

Differences Between 
Islamic Teaching and Christianity

The Qur'an

The Bible

External sources (the Hadith and Sira) necessary for translating the Qur'an Historical context contained 
within the text of the Bible
Must know Arabic in order to "fully understand" the Qur'an (according to Muslim apologists) Universal.  Can be translated into other languages without excessive commentary.
Chronological progression of the 
Quran is from peace to violence.
Chronological progression of the
 Bible is from violence to peace.
The words 'torture' and 'punishment' appear six
times more often than in the New Testament.
The word 'love' appears five times more often
 in the New Testament than in the Qur'an,
Contains not a single original moral value. The 'Sermon on the Mount' and others.
Suffering is an excuse for violent revenge 
and establishment of Islam by force

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." 
(Qur'an 2:191)

Suffering builds character

"We also rejoice in our sufferings, 
because we know that suffering 
produces perseverance; perseverance,
 character; and character, hope"

(Romans 5:4)

Emphasis on this World

"And Allah has made you heirs to their land 
and their dwellings and their property"

(Qur'an 33:27)

Emphasis on the Next

"Mine is not a kingdom of this world"
(John 18:36, see also Luke 14:33)

Kill, convert or subjugate Christians and Jews.
(Qur'an 9:29)
Share one's faith with gentleness and respect.
(1 Peter 3:15)
Martyrs as Killers

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain" 
(Qur'an 9:111)
Martyrs as Martyrs

"As it is written, For thy sake we are 
killed all the day long; we are 
counted as sheep for the slaughter"

(Romans 8:36)
Killing Apostates

"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"
(Qur'an 4:89, also Bukhari 52:260, 83:37...)
Letting God Judge Apostates

"For we know Him that has said, 
'Vengeance belongs unto me, I will
 recompense,' says the Lord.  And again,
'The Lord shall judge his people'" 

(Hebrews 10:25-30)
Punishment

"Let not compassion move you
 from carrying out God's law..."

(Qur'an 24:2)

Mercy

"Love is patient.  Love is kind... 
It keeps no record of wrongs"

(1 Corinthians 13:4-5)

Charity and Non-Believers

Mercy toward fellow Muslims - ruthlessness toward unbelievers.  Muslims are warned not to befriend those outside the faith.  They must even ensure that their charity tithe (zakat) 
stays within their own identity group.
(Qur'an 48:29, 3:28, Sharia)

Charity and Non-Believers

Christians are specifically told that even
 those who hate them are entitled to 
kindness and charity.  They should be loved
and cared for as surely as any fellow believer.
(Mark 10:25-37)

The Qur'an explicitly instructs 
men to beat disobedient wives.
(Qur'an 4:34, Sahih Muslim 2127)

"Husbands, love your wives and 
do not be harsh with them."

(No permission to beat women)
(Colossians 3:19)

Explicitly allows Muslim men to rape their female slaves, even those already married.
(Qur'an 4:24, 70:29-30, 23:5-6...)
Tells masters and slaves to serve 
each other as if serving God.
(Ephesians 6:7-9)
Muhammad is the messenger
 of Allah. And those who are with him 
are ruthless to the unbelievers"

(Qur'an 48:29)
"Do good to them that hate you"
(Luke 6:27)
Allah wills those that stray and are lost
(Qur'an 16:93)
God wants all people saved
(1 Timothy 2:4)
Warns Against Questioning Faith.  
(Qur'an 5:101-102)
Welcomes Intellectual Challenge.  
(1 Peter 3:15)
Violence as Virtue

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye 
dislike it.  But it is possible that ye 
dislike a thing which is good for you, and
that ye love a thing which is bad for you.
  But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

(Qur'an 2:216)

Violence as Sin

"Do not take revenge, my friends, but 
leave room for God's wrath, for it is written:
 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord. On the contrary: 'If your enemy
 is hungry,  feed him... '"

(Romans 12:19-20)

Hell for unbelief.  
Good deeds count for naught

(Qur'an 18:102-107)
Hell for bad deeds and the
failure to do what is right

(Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:41-45)
Judging

"Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites!  Be harsh with them..."
(Qur'an 9:73)

Judge Not

"For when you pass judgment on another person, you condemn yourself..."
(Romans 2:1)

Taking wealth from others

"Allah promiseth you much 
booty that ye will capture..."

(Qur'an 48:20)

Working for and giving wealth to others

"The thief must no longer steal but must 
work hard and do what is good with his 
own hands, so that he might have 
something to give to the needy."

(Ephesians 4:28)

Calls down Allah's curse on Christians 
and those of other religions. 

(Qur'an 9:30)
Calls down God's blessing on 
those who curse Christians.

(Matthew 5:44)

Arrogance & Privilege

"Ye are the best of peoples, 
evolved for mankind"

(Qur'an 3:110)

Humility & Servitude

"If anyone wants to be first, he must make himself last of all and servant of all."
(Mark 9:35)

"O you who believe! do not take My 
enemy and your enemy for friends: 
Would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth?

(Qur'an 60:1)
"Love your enemies..."
(Luke 6:27)
 

Differences Between the Islamic 
and Christian-Based Worlds

Muslim Legacy

Christian Legacy

Countries that Muslims want to escape from. Countries that Muslims want to escape to.
Madrassahs that indoctrinate Muslim 
children with bigotry and terror.
Mission schools that teach reading and 
writing to Christians and Muslims alike.
Suicide bombings for Allah No suicide bombings for Jesus
International terror organizations. International charities.
No formal charities for non-Muslims. Leading provider of disaster relief to Muslims.
Murder of aid workers. Supply of aid workers.
Christians in jail for apostasy or blasphemy. Religious freedom.
Modern-day slavery in the name of Islam. Abolition in the name of Christianity.
Muslim clerics who engage
in or condone terrorism.
Christian clerics murdered each year by 
terror groups rife with Muslim clerics.
Daily religious violence against Hindus. None.
Daily religious violence against Jews. None.
Daily religious violence against Buddhists. None.
Daily religious violence against Muslims. None.
Ritual slitting of animals' throats Ending of animal sacrifice
Religion Technology & Medicine
Censorship Freedom of speech
Intolerance for criticism of Islam. Tolerance for religious dissent.
Restricting other religions from preaching faith. Allowing all religions the 
same right to evangelize.
Conversions allowed to Islam only. Freedom of conscience.
Converts to Christianity beheaded. No dead converts to Islam.
Most famous Muslim: Osama bin Laden. Most famous Christian: The Pope.

 

 

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Jesus-Muhammad.htm

 

I personally want Christians and Muslims to live in peace. Perhaps the west will eventually achieve that, but the only way for that to happen is for Muslims to respect non-Muslims, free speech and women's rights. 

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post #9 of 80

Soooo... I gather you do NOT believe that Jesus IS God... that they are one in the same ... the whole "Trinity" concept.

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post #10 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post
 

yes, but as the founder of Christianity, he doesn't exactly fit Frank777's description.

 

Yes, I got that you were making that claim. It's ridiculous, but that's your choice.

 

Christianity was already spreading like wildfire and turning Roman rule upside down. As in America today, it's in the ruling empire's best interest to at least pay lip service to the prevailing movement and try to harness it rather than go head to head and lose grip on power totally.

 

I have no idea whether Constantine was really a true Christian. But calling a bunch of scholars together didn't make King James one.

And convening the Council of Nicaea doesn't make him one.

 

The founder of Christianity is well known, and His disciples provided eyewitness testimony to His life.

 

Claiming the New Testament was written hundreds of years after Christ died used to be cool in scholarship circles, not so much anymore.

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post #11 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post
 

Soooo... I gather you do NOT believe that Jesus IS God... that they are one in the same ... the whole "Trinity" concept.

You gather that from what?

 

I do believe Jesus is God. 

 

I guess you're responding to this comment I made-

 

"...spread Christianity more than anyone up till that point"

 

I simply meant that through the empire Christianity spread. Frank clearly knows more than me about the history, and I'd like to read more. I don't think anyone spread that Jesus IS God more than Jesus. lol.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 4/26/14 at 4:03pm
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post #12 of 80
Thread Starter 

This is quite tragic on the Islam side, but I'll post it anyway. Hopefully it's not always the case with Muslims-

 

"The willingness to commit violent crimes grows among young Muslim immigrants in Germany the more religious they become, according to a joint survey by the German interior ministry and the Institute for Criminology Research of Lower Saxony (KFN).

By comparison, the study found that just the opposite was true for Christian immigrants. The willingness to commit violent crimes, such as armed robbery or assault and battery, among young Catholics and Protestants decreases with religious fervor, the KFN study revealed."

http://www.dw.de/study-finds-young-devout-muslims-in-germany-more-prone-to-violence/a-5655554

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post #13 of 80

0.0000000000000000000001% of Muslims participated in 9/11. Why slander an entire religion based on the actions of a miniscule fraction of the population of Muslims?

post #14 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post
 

0.0000000000000000000001% of Muslims participated in 9/11. Why slander an entire religion based on the actions of a miniscule fraction of the population of Muslims?

I don't think that taking the "Islamic" out is the answer. Most muslim's, especially in the west thought  9/11 was a perversion of their religion, and I accept that. But far too many think that kind of violence is a duty. They believe in killing adulterers, blasphemers, apostates etc. This is their religion and they need to accept that. I don't see muslim's killing blasphemers in the US, but to say it's not Islamic is a joke. 

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post #15 of 80
Thread Starter 

Here is a link that shows just how generous and kind most Muslim's are. What makes this all the more remarkable is that Muslim's in the UK really don't have that much money on the whole. For most Muslim's their religion is a help in them living more full and kind lives. I don't doubt that, but the negative side to any religion or its adherents, is fair game in a free society and a free society has far more chance of living peacefully as a result, because both sides can be heard. 

 

"Muslims 'Give Most To Charity', Ahead Of Christians, Jews And Atheists, Poll Finds

 

Muslims give more to charity than other religious groups, new research suggests.

At almost £371 each, Muslims topped the poll of religious groups that give to charity.

When they donated last year, atheists averaged £116, The Times reported (£).

The ICM poll found that Jewish donors gave an average of £270 per person.

Roman Catholics averaged just over £178, Christians just under £178 and Protestants £202.

According to the poll of 4,000, carried out in conjunction with the JustGiving website, nearly four in 10 atheists did not donate at all, compared to three in ten Muslims, Catholics and other Christians, nearly three in ten Protestants and more than four in ten Jewish people.

 

JustGiving said a growing number of Muslims were making their charitable donations online.

Zakat, one of the five pillars of Islam, is the compulsory giving of a proportion of one's wealth to charity.

JustGiving said religious charities such as Muslim Aid and Islamic Relief benefited most, but many donations also went to the likes of Cancer Research, Macmillan and the British Heart Foundation."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/21/muslims-give-most_n_3630830.html

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post #16 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

I do believe Jesus is God. 

 

I guess you're responding to this comment I made-

 

 

No... I was actually thinking of the long list that you posted ... if Jesus is God... (and you believe the Bible to be the Word of God) ... then Jesus is equally guilty of promoting slavery, genocide, rape, mass murder, stonings... all the crimes commanded or perpetrated by "God" throughout the Bible. (Mostly in the Pentatuch, but found throughout.)  All those also things your list claims that Islam does, but Christianity doesn't... unfortunately, Christianity DID do those things... (While I'm sure you'll tell me that the Old Test was not Christianity, because it was before the christ, it WAS still the same damn god.) ... There have been several episodes, the Crusades being the most prominent, where Christianity was just a violent as Islam ... and if it were left to flourish there are plenty of people like the late Fred Phelps who would see it return to those methods.  

 

I just get tired of listening to Christians tell me how their imaginary friend is so much nicer than the Muslims imaginary friend when in truth they are the same imaginary friend.  The world would be a better place if you would ALL grow out of your imaginary friends and just be nice to other people for the sake of being nice, rather than because a god told you to (or told you not to.)

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #17 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post
 

 

 

No... I was actually thinking of the long list that you posted ... if Jesus is God... (and you believe the Bible to be the Word of God) ... then Jesus is equally guilty of promoting slavery, genocide, rape, mass murder, stonings... all the crimes commanded or perpetrated by "God" throughout the Bible. (Mostly in the Pentatuch, but found throughout.)  All those also things your list claims that Islam does, but Christianity doesn't... unfortunately, Christianity DID do those things... (While I'm sure you'll tell me that the Old Test was not Christianity, because it was before the christ, it WAS still the same damn god.) ... There have been several episodes, the Crusades being the most prominent, where Christianity was just a violent as Islam ... and if it were left to flourish there are plenty of people like the late Fred Phelps who would see it return to those methods.  

 

I just get tired of listening to Christians tell me how their imaginary friend is so much nicer than the Muslims imaginary friend when in truth they are the same imaginary friend.  The world would be a better place if you would ALL grow out of your imaginary friends and just be nice to other people for the sake of being nice, rather than because a god told you to (or told you not to.)

 

Yes, you're right about the the God part, it clearly suggests that my God was barbaric. I can only tell you where I'm coming from. I haven't read the old testament or the new testament. Whilst I went to church a few times and was taught some Christianity when I was young I entered adulthood being more inspired to connect to my spirituality more along the lines of Buddhism. That to me seemed a direct path without all the rules etc. Just sit there and think of nothing etc. 

 

But, at the age of about 21, I had what I would describe as a powerful experience involving light and dark and Jesus was the light. I have wondered about that experience I think every day since, and believe in Jesus in a way that is profound to me. I've read of course since that my experience must have been something only happening in my head, an illusion etc, but it was far more than that and has given me a rock solid belief that he is very much alive and operating in this world.

 

I try and walk a careful line with my belief in Jesus. If it were not for one experience I would probably not believe in Jesus, certainly not the way I do now. Other people have experiences that makes them sure say, that Allah is real etc. I always believe one must try and be neutral, allow different people their beliefs, and respect that that is the way things work.

 

I have wondered whether I should do more, ie read the bible, go to church etc, but as yet I haven't done much except go to church a few times. So, I would simply answer that my Jesus is a mystery to me in many ways, but none of the inspiration I take from him is violent. As a God to me he is light, that meaning love and how this God does any of it and what he has actually done and not done is beyond me. All I can relate to is the love, the light.

 

The fears you have about Christians repeating the kind of violence that has happened in history, I share too. The crusades, like most forms of violence, where justified because of the spread of Islam, often spreading by the sword. It's a mixed bag of good and evil. That in part is why I've focused on Islam in these tense threads. The way I see it is that by seeing the problems, seeing what is really happening, there is more likely to be real understanding so that problems are dealt with in a peaceful, respectful and understanding way. At a time when many people feel in Western countries that Muslims coming to their countries in large numbers is damaging in a lot of ways, we should discus it. 


Edited by Hands Sandon - 4/27/14 at 6:44am
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post #18 of 80

My view is that such references should not be dropped; at least, not completely. There is a sense in which one might say "religious terrorism" or "fundamentalist religious terrorism" - these are all fairly interchangeable I think.

 

It would be simply incorrect to try to say that the 9/11 attacks were purely political in nature, given that even the political aspect of them had a fundamentally religious justification.

 

It's worth remembering that Osama bin Laden's explanation for the attacks stemmed from the U.S. military using the Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia to perform air strikes on Iraq in the first Gulf War. Osama bin Laden saw this as a violation of the holy land, and this is partly why he had an axe to grind against the Saudi royal family as well.

 

So, if the core justification is related to a religious grievance, then yes, I think the terrorists should continue to be labeled as precisely what they were. But again, it would still be feasible to say "religious extremists" or something along those lines.

 

Also just as an aside, I must point out that there is little value in trying to explain how and where and why most Muslims are good people; that should be self-evident. It should be clear to all but the most dimwitted observers that terrorism is an act carried out by a small, extreme minority of people who believe that they are doing the right thing by their own lights. 

post #19 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingsoc View Post
 

My view is that such references should not be dropped; at least, not completely. There is a sense in which one might say "religious terrorism" or "fundamentalist religious terrorism" - these are all fairly interchangeable I think.

 

It would be simply incorrect to try to say that the 9/11 attacks were purely political in nature, given that even the political aspect of them had a fundamentally religious justification.

 

It's worth remembering that Osama bin Laden's explanation for the attacks stemmed from the U.S. military using the Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia to perform air strikes on Iraq in the first Gulf War. Osama bin Laden saw this as a violation of the holy land, and this is partly why he had an axe to grind against the Saudi royal family as well.

 

So, if the core justification is related to a religious grievance, then yes, I think the terrorists should continue to be labeled as precisely what they were. But again, it would still be feasible to say "religious extremists" or something along those lines.

 

Also just as an aside, I must point out that there is little value in trying to explain how and where and why most Muslims are good people; that should be self-evident. It should be clear to all but the most dimwitted observers that terrorism is an act carried out by a small, extreme minority of people who believe that they are doing the right thing by their own lights. 

 

You don't think that by calling it simply "religious extremism" that would encourage people to stop talking about the actual problems created by Islamists who carry out attacks on innocent members of the public? You don't fear brushing it under the carpet, or in effect maligning other religion's as terrorists when they're actually not, may be counterproductive?

 

 

Headline- Religious Extremists Blow Up 9/11 Museum Killing 50

 

Story- No mention of their religion

 

Public- Who did it and why?

 

PC crowd- Shut up and stop being so racist.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 4/28/14 at 10:50am
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post #20 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

 

You don't think that by calling it simply "religious extremism" that would encourage people to stop talking about the actual problems created by Islamists who carry out attacks on innocent members of the public? You don't fear brushing it under the carpet, or in effect maligning other religion's as terrorists when they're actually not, may be counterproductive?

 

 

Headline- Religious Extremists Blow Up 9/11 Museum Killing 50

 

Story- No mention of their religion

 

Public- Who did it and why?

 

PC crowd- Shut up and stop being so racist.

 

Well, yes... I do think it's problematic. I think I expressed that view in my post.

 

All I'm saying is that if the term "Islamic Extremists" somehow became too unpalatable or impossible to use, then I'd at least want to see a reference to religious extremism. Anything else would simply be factually incorrect.

post #21 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingsoc View Post
 

 

Well, yes... I do think it's problematic. I think I expressed that view in my post.

 

All I'm saying is that if the term "Islamic Extremists" somehow became too unpalatable or impossible to use, then I'd at least want to see a reference to religious extremism. Anything else would simply be factually incorrect.

Ok, I didn't get that from your post. I thought you'd rather call it simply religious extremism, but I'm glad that isn't the case.

 

Just today another terrorist attack has taken place in China by deranged Muslims-

 

"A bomb and knife attack at a railway station in China's western Xinjiang region has killed three and injured 79 others, officials and state media say.

The attackers used explosives and knives at Urumqi's south railway station on Wednesday, officials said."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-27225308

Warning: graphic (Click to show)
Photographs posted on Chinese social media sites showed blood-spattered luggage and debris scattered across a street outside the station

 

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post #22 of 80
Thread Starter 

I read somewhere that nearly 95% of the families of those who died at Ground Zero don't want their relatives remains on display in the basement of the museum there, and who can blame them? It seems that the museum are going to do it though regardless. Tellingly, less than 5% of Americans are Muslim and when they wanted the term "Islamic terrorism" removed, the museum quickly complied.

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post #23 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

I read somewhere that nearly 95% of the families of those who died at Ground Zero don't want their relatives remains on display in the basement of the museum there, and who can blame them? It seems that the museum are going to do it though regardless. 

 

So the museum authority isn't seeking individual permission from each family in order to "display their remains"? (I'm not really sure what that means exactly).

 

That strikes me as very odd. I'd have thought the families would actually need to sign some kind of documentation for that to happen.

post #24 of 80
Originally Posted by Ingsoc View Post

That strikes me as very odd. I'd have thought the families would actually need to sign some kind of documentation for that to happen.

 

Unfortunately, the remains of a body (any body, rather, once dead) are not property. As such, the family does not have to give consent, because it’s not their consent to give. And since courts never side with the family…

 

 

SHOULD start at the right place. 8:30 if it doesn’t.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

There's just a TINY chance that Apple will also be able to figure out payments. Oh wait, they did already… …and you’re already fucked.

 

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post #25 of 80

Wow, as a religiously neutral person. i see how brainwashed the world really is…..Is there an Allah ?…I don't know…was Jesus the son of God ?

I don't know…..is there a God ?…I don't know…does anybody really know…NOPE….and to think otherwise is just plain silly.

And trying to convince others thinking one does know…is plain stupid…commit harmful acts is just plain criminal.

 

I mean if someone said they were at the north pole and talked to Santa Clause, or said they were on the moon and saw the man in the moon and said he had mystical powers….does everyone believe him….or do a few say….prove it.

 

Do I accept the possibilities of God, higher power etc, sure, do I let it consume my life, no.

 

So how brainwashed are people…lets see some spinach chin, convinced a handful of dopes to steal planes and fly them into buildings

killing themselves and around 3,000 people….because they are going where ?…paradise ???? and they BELIEVED him.

 

Man do I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you……..


Edited by sostoobad - 5/13/14 at 3:52am
post #26 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sostoobad View Post
 

Wow, as a religiously neutral person. i see how brainwashed the world really is…..Is there an Allah ?…I don't know…was Jesus the son of God ?

I don't know…..is there a God ?…I don't know…does anybody really know…NOPE….and to think otherwise is just plain silly.

And trying to convince others thinking one does know…is plain stupid…commit harmful acts is just plain criminal.

 

I mean if someone said they were at the north pole and talked to Santa Clause, or said they were on the moon and saw the man in the moon and said he had mystical powers….does everyone believe him….or do a few say….prove it.

 

Do I accept the possibilities of God, higher power etc, sure, do I let it consume my life, no.

 

So how brainwashed are people…lets see some spinach chin, convinced a handful of dopes to steal planes and fly them into buildings

killing themselves and around 3,000 people….because they are going where ?…paradise ???? and they BELIEVED him.

 

Man do I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you……..

 

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"

~ Sir Winston Churchill.

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post #27 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

 

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"

~ Sir Winston Churchill.

Wow thats an interesting quote.

post #28 of 80
Thread Starter 

He has other s too, but I live in the UK and so if I repeat them I'll be arrested, with a possible 5 year jail term. EDIT - 2 years.


Edited by Hands Sandon - 5/13/14 at 2:28pm
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post #29 of 80
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
He has other s too, but I live in the UK and so if I repeat them I'll be arrested, with a possible 5 year jail term.

 

Oh, that’s right. You guys can be arrested for talking about history on the Internet. I’d forgotten.

 

How’s that country going, by the way? :lol: UKIP gonna get elected? From a preliminary outsider’s look, UKIP looks like a good idea. Close the borders, focus on countrymen first, etc.

Originally Posted by Slurpy

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post #30 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post
 

 

Oh, that’s right. You guys can be arrested for talking about history on the Internet. I’d forgotten.

 

How’s that country going, by the way? :lol: UKIP gonna get elected? From a preliminary outsider’s look, UKIP looks like a good idea. Close the borders, focus on countrymen first, etc.

UKIP don't want to close the borders and hardly any of their supporters want them to either. They do want to end the mass immigration, but still let people come here. We have nearly 50% of muslim men and 75% muslim women unemployed here. We need to sensibly deal with immigration not just carry on the way we have been.

 

I was being slightly tongue in cheek about getting arrested, but there's still a media and political effort here to silence any criticism of Islam. Notice how the higher-up's in the police slammed him with heavy charges. If you want promotion in the UK you have to be intolerant and as hard as possible to the critics of immigration policy. That's where the money is for these traitors.

 

See this video-

 

  

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post #31 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I was being slightly tongue in cheek about getting arrested, but there's still a media and political effort here to silence any criticism of Islam. Notice how the higher-up's in the police slammed him with heavy charges. If you want promotion in the UK you have to be intolerant and as hard as possible to the critics of immigration policy. 

 

It's a bit like that here in Australia, although maybe not to the same degree.

However, we have had similar experiences in terms of some Muslim leaders overtly saying that they want to introduce Sharia here, have enough people in one area to form a voting block on local councils, etc etc...

 

Realistically I don't see that there will be much of a tangible issue with that (unlike in the UK), but certainly, there's a push-and-pull between criticism and censorship (that is, self-censorship).

 

One of the problems in this country though is that the reasonable criticism of religion and its influence on society is skewed by other issues coming in (for example, there are racists who criticise "Islam" but who are really promoting racist ideologies). As someone who does critique religion, this had added unnecessary pressure because it has become easier for someone to brand me as a "racist" even though I'm actually not criticising a "race" or even a particular nationality.

 

I am happy to critique religion, but I am highly opposed to racism.

So, it's a tricky balance and I think it creates real problems in terms of the discourse.

post #32 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingsoc View Post
 

 

It's a bit like that here in Australia, although maybe not to the same degree.

However, we have had similar experiences in terms of some Muslim leaders overtly saying that they want to introduce Sharia here, have enough people in one area to form a voting block on local councils, etc etc...

 

Realistically I don't see that there will be much of a tangible issue with that (unlike in the UK), but certainly, there's a push-and-pull between criticism and censorship (that is, self-censorship).

 

One of the problems in this country though is that the reasonable criticism of religion and its influence on society is skewed by other issues coming in (for example, there are racists who criticise "Islam" but who are really promoting racist ideologies). As someone who does critique religion, this had added unnecessary pressure because it has become easier for someone to brand me as a "racist" even though I'm actually not criticising a "race" or even a particular nationality.

 

I am happy to critique religion, but I am highly opposed to racism.

So, it's a tricky balance and I think it creates real problems in terms of the discourse.

I get exactly where you're coming from. In Europe, including here in the UK, there's a devision growing between whites and non-whites. Racism here has hit the front pages, not in the usual sense of "You're a racist bigot" headlines, but because the politicians have finally been put in their place through Ukip winning the EU election. They won primarily because of immigration, and the politicians are having to adapt to talking about it instead of just calling us racist all the time for mentioning problems caused by mass immigration.

 

There's no doubt that at the extremes there are real racists, but for most people they're just sick of seeing their country becoming someone else's country. For instance, in London now 57% of babies are born to mothers who weren't born in the UK. I don't think it's racist to want to reverse that, I think its racist not to, towards the British.

 

I'm lucky not to live in a place that has radically altered through immigration, and my experience of other religions and races are practically always very positive, including with Muslims. The problems arise in areas where that's not the case, and that devision causes hatred that really is dangerous, and it's not surprising we are seeing a radical right growing in Europe as a result. Unless our politician's act to stop it, we are heading much further down that road, and probably a lot quicker than expected. 

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post #33 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

There's no doubt that at the extremes there are real racists, but for most people they're just sick of seeing their country becoming someone else's country. For instance, in London now 57% of babies are born to mothers who weren't born in the UK. I don't think it's racist to want to reverse that, I think its racist not to, towards the British.

 

This is the only part where my views would diverge slightly. To be against that statistic could definitely be racist, depending on the nuances of the opposition.

 

Again, I can only use my own country as a measure of these things. Australia is an incredibly diverse society; in some ways it may be more ethnically diverse than most Western countries, in large part because of its geography (we are, after all, a "minority" within the broader Asian region).

 

However, there's an important point to be made about this: for just about every wave of immigration that Australia has had over the 20th century, we've seen strong integration of these communities. That is, individual communities still practice their own religious and cultural observances, but these communities have all made an effort to integrate into Australian society in the ways that really matter (e.g. observing the local laws and customs, making an effort to learn the language and to adhere to the "norms", and contributing positively to the economy and culture).

 

Given this, it is very jarring when a particular group flatly refuses to integrate in this way (or at least, when some significant members refuse to do this).

 

On the one hand, I think Australia is an incredibly tolerant place - we have adopted numerous traditions from around the world as our own (for example, here in Melbourne, we have a really large and vibrant Chinese community - so much so, that many Chinese festivals and traditions have become part of our local way of life, whether or not we are of Chinese descent). I think this is a good thing.

 

On the other hand though, I do think it's fair to expect immigrants to make the effort to integrate into their new home, recognising that Australia does have some very different cultural values than, say, a country like Saudi Arabia. Despite the many different cultural influences that have become part of broader Australian culture, there are some core elements that are really non-negotiable (such as women's rights, for example).

post #34 of 80
Thread Starter 

I don't want to live in a country where different groups of people live in different areas. Where when one group expands another flees. That's not the country I grew up in and it's not the country I'd want to leave behind me. But that's already happened on a massive scale here, but the least I can try and do is to prevent it happening any more. Yes, there are some pluses, but when the numbers get too big it's horrible. I'm saddened by what's happened and continues to happen to Europe. I'm also worried that there's going to be violence. That alone is makes it worth fighting to stop. 

 

Islam is going down extremely badly here in the UK. People in authority, have up until very recently, been terrified of the higher ups destroying their careers if they target Muslims for crimes that any other people would be hammered for. It's shocking what's been happening and continues to happen to protect Muslims. 1 in 10 babies born here is to Muslim parents and that number will rise much higher before long. The numbers who want inhumane and bigoted laws introduced here is ridiculously high, no doubt similar to Australia. Google what happened in Tower Hamlets here in the EU elections. It's stunning to think that people who are living here and gain power can behave that way. 

We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #35 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

I don't want to live in a country where different groups of people live in different areas. Where when one group expands another flees. That's not the country I grew up in and it's not the country I'd want to leave behind me. 

 

That's why I think the issue is not so much about how many Muslim families have babies (given that babies have no religion) - the issue, really, is about how well people are integrated into society.

 

I am all for providing substantial support to new immigrants - especially refugees. Part of that service, I think, should be some reasonable integration programs (such programs would help the immigrants that are arriving, too - I don't see a benefit to an immigrant if they aren't fully participating in their new home).

post #36 of 80
Thread Starter 

My understanding is that even a newly born child is considered muslim by its parents if they are muslim, but I may be wrong.

 

The Muslims in the UK are becoming less, not more integrated as their numbers increase. This is where the UK is with "integration" with them- 

 

 

Dispatches- Undercover Mosque- http://vimeo.com/19598947

Dispatches- Undercover Mosque, The Return- http://vimeo.com/85362804


Edited by Hands Sandon - 6/2/14 at 7:36pm
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #37 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

My understanding is that even a newly born child is considered muslim by its parents if they are muslim, but I may be wrong.

 

 

Oh, I see what you mean now. When you referred to babies I was assuming that you were referring to ethnicity or nationality - because again, babies don't have a religion (despite what their parents say).

 

But I see what you mean, in terms of how this factors into the integration question. My hope would be that even if there are "Muslim" children being born in the UK, they would have a higher chance of community integration than their parents did - especially if they are going to schools with children from different backgrounds (although I acknowledge that this may not necessarily be happening).

post #38 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingsoc View Post
 

 

Oh, I see what you mean now. When you referred to babies I was assuming that you were referring to ethnicity or nationality - because again, babies don't have a religion (despite what their parents say).

 

But I see what you mean, in terms of how this factors into the integration question. My hope would be that even if there are "Muslim" children being born in the UK, they would have a higher chance of community integration than their parents did - especially if they are going to schools with children from different backgrounds (although I acknowledge that this may not necessarily be happening).

It used to be the case decades ago that Muslims went to school and mixed with non-muslims and because of that they became less dogmatic about Islam and more open to native Brits. Now there are large areas where Muslims live and they want to send their children to schools that are overwhelmingly, if not completely Muslim. They want there schools to be more Islamic. Fortunately now we have a government here that's beginning to act, but we are too far gone for Muslims to let go of the increasing Islamification of their lives and ours. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H9yoqsVcU0


Edited by Hands Sandon - 6/19/14 at 10:01pm
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #39 of 80
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Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post
 

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"

~ Sir Winston Churchill.

And how long ago was that said or written? A century ago or more?

 

Churchill was definitely a wise man, far ahead of his time.

post #40 of 80

Perceptually, one might seem 'worse' than another....but all religion is bad. It is truly the bane of civilization. It was created by authority figures to control the non-authority, and remains that way today.

 

Religion is a joke, and causes nothing but problems. If only ALL people could stop worrying about that crap and just focus on the here and now, the world could be a great place.

 

"Never his mind on where he was. What he was doing."

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