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Samsung shipped 2x as many phones as Apple, earned half as much - Page 2

post #41 of 61
This is why we can't have nice things.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
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"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #42 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayTed View Post

From a long term view, this is not good for Apple.
When you lose market share, eventually you lose. 

That's why Apple got out of the PC biz and why HP and Dell are thriving. Oh wait.

Define the smart phone market. Define the cell phone market. Apple share of the cell phone market is increasing.
post #43 of 61
Samsung's phone strategy follows the inverse square law.
post #44 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by wigby View Post
 

This headline sums up the Samsung - Apple relationship completely. Of course pure profits are more important than pure marketshare but there is a tipping point. At some point (under 5% for PCs) developers and industry allegiance begin to pull away completely from your ecosystem as Apple found in the mid-nineties. I never want to be an iOS user looking over the fence and seeing so many more apps and accessories available for Android just as they looked at iOS a few years ago.

 

iOS has a long way to go before developers begin to look elsewhere but there are some very early signs of developers now embracing Android and iOS together.

 

I disagree fully with you.  Where did you come up with this 5% = irrelevance and developer abandonment?  Can I have some more fries with your FUD.

 

This is exactly what I see as leading to a complete and utter failure and implosion of Capitalism.  People like you get so caught up in the high numbers and the low numbers.

 

Follow me here.  North American market.  Apple's Mac computers in the 90's had a total user base of about 25 million.  At the same time they were reporting that 400 million Windows PCs were out there somewhere.  I am not trying to debate what these were used for.  Just simple numbers.

 

25 million Macs.  Is that not enough for you to develop a piece of software or even hardware?  Thing is the more people that DON'T write or port their applications or hardware means one less competitor to steal away sales and even less cost to advertise your stuff.

 

In fact, in those "dark times of Apple" Microsoft was reported to be making as much, if not more, on its Office products for Mac than the 100's of millions more PCs out there.

 

In 2012 some reports were that Apple had 66 million Macs out there.  Newer reports indicate Apple at between 8-10% or more of the PC market. If Apple had 100 million users that means 1 billion Windows PCs out there.  Numbers not being accurate based on whose numbers you believe in.

 

Either way - 100 million customers is not worth developing for?  So please enlighten us on the basics of business and tell us when we should abandon a market segment.

 

Now add to that the iOS devices.  What are we at since 2007 - 200 million devices?  250?  I totally see where you are coming from.  If Apple dwindles to 5% of 1,000,000,000,000 devices they should just what, shut down the company and give the money back to their shareholders?  (Sorry, I just could not resist getting that in there - sorry Mr. Dell.)

 

I mean who the hell in their right mind would even develop for 50 billion devices when they could go after the 1 trillion market?  That is what Samsung seems to be after.  pushing the total numbers up so they are the largest holder of landfill electronics by market share.  To get there they need to produce 20 million more than last time, even if people don't want or buy them.  But hey, our market share is up right?

 

Seriously, I don't feel that many of the people that post on market share numbers or percentages fully understand basic numbers.  1 million is a really big fracking number let alone 300 million or whatever Apple's combined devices numbers would be.

 

I know you said you don't think it will happen soon, but that it will eventually.  Remember though, Apple was under 2% market share and still had plenty of developers, applications, 3rd party hardware manufacturers, and support.  Enough that they came back and built an Empire on their own ashes to be honest.

post #45 of 61

Wow!

That speaks volume.

post #46 of 61
And Samsung is the only Android mobile maker who makes a solid profit! I hate to even think what the others are doing!!!
post #47 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post
 

 

Speaking in pure #s, Android is obviously a majority, yet developers still overhwelmingly favor iOS in terms of app development. There's nothing that indicates this will change anytime soon, since the percentage of Android users who own capable devices, and actually are willing to purchase apps is much, much smaller than the numbers suggest. Meanwhile, every single iPhone owner is a lucrative consumer. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lookforandrew View Post
 

 

I disagree fully with you.  Where did you come up with this 5% = irrelevance and developer abandonment?  Can I have some more fries with your FUD.

 

This is exactly what I see as leading to a complete and utter failure and implosion of Capitalism.  People like you get so caught up in the high numbers and the low numbers.

 

Follow me here.  North American market.  Apple's Mac computers in the 90's had a total user base of about 25 million.  At the same time they were reporting that 400 million Windows PCs were out there somewhere.  I am not trying to debate what these were used for.  Just simple numbers.

 

25 million Macs.  Is that not enough for you to develop a piece of software or even hardware?  Thing is the more people that DON'T write or port their applications or hardware means one less competitor to steal away sales and even less cost to advertise your stuff.

 

In fact, in those "dark times of Apple" Microsoft was reported to be making as much, if not more, on its Office products for Mac than the 100's of millions more PCs out there.

 

In 2012 some reports were that Apple had 66 million Macs out there.  Newer reports indicate Apple at between 8-10% or more of the PC market. If Apple had 100 million users that means 1 billion Windows PCs out there.  Numbers not being accurate based on whose numbers you believe in.

 

Either way - 100 million customers is not worth developing for?  So please enlighten us on the basics of business and tell us when we should abandon a market segment.

 

Now add to that the iOS devices.  What are we at since 2007 - 200 million devices?  250?  I totally see where you are coming from.  If Apple dwindles to 5% of 1,000,000,000,000 devices they should just what, shut down the company and give the money back to their shareholders?  (Sorry, I just could not resist getting that in there - sorry Mr. Dell.)

 

I mean who the hell in their right mind would even develop for 50 billion devices when they could go after the 1 trillion market?  That is what Samsung seems to be after.  pushing the total numbers up so they are the largest holder of landfill electronics by market share.  To get there they need to produce 20 million more than last time, even if people don't want or buy them.  But hey, our market share is up right?

 

Seriously, I don't feel that many of the people that post on market share numbers or percentages fully understand basic numbers.  1 million is a really big fracking number let alone 300 million or whatever Apple's combined devices numbers would be.

 

I know you said you don't think it will happen soon, but that it will eventually.  Remember though, Apple was under 2% market share and still had plenty of developers, applications, 3rd party hardware manufacturers, and support.  Enough that they came back and built an Empire on their own ashes to be honest.

Where's all those great apps and developers knocking down the door to get to MS and Blackberry? When your marketshare drops too low, it's not worth the effort for most. That doesn't mean a few don't still develop but they have to pay the bills so they support multiple ecosystems.

 

You must be new to Apple. I've been an Apple customer since the late 70's so I been through all their ups and downs. Their ups were defined by innovation and a strong developer community. Their downs were defined by commodity products and weak demand (i.e., marketshare).

 

Not sure why you're so fixated on the 5%. I pulled it out of my ass but that doesn't mean my point is any less valid. For nearly a decade in the late 80's to late 90's, I watched as all the developers went to PC first with games, content creation apps, utilities and hardware accessories. It was no coincidence that Apple's marketshare was at its lowest point. When you control hardware and software like Apple, it's difficult enough to get developers onboard. When you still hold the keys like they do but have no marketshare, you have no demand and no customers either. I'm not talking about right now. They will be fine for a long time but "long time" in the tech market can sometimes go by in a few years. Again, look at MS and Blackberry.

 

Even at .1% marketshare, iOS would have some great developers but you know that they wouldn't get any exclusives, nothing would come to iOS first and the catalog would ultimately disintegrate the same way their users did. At a certain point, there is just no incentive for developers and consumers to stick with product loyalty. I used Apple when they had a 60% marketshare in PCs and continued using them even when you couldn't find a retail store or fellow geek that still sold or used Apple. I stayed with them but that doesn't mean I enjoyed those lean years.

post #48 of 61

Like gravity, Samsung's profits will soon be inversely proportional to the square of the items sold.

post #49 of 61

would you care to elaborate on why you think more categories would make sense for any useful purpose ?

 

Do you have some ideas on what particular differentiation characteristics might be useful to define new categories of devices.

 

Just asking :-)

post #50 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by lookforandrew View Post
 

 

I disagree fully with you.  Where did you come up with this 5% = irrelevance and developer abandonment?  Can I have some more fries with your FUD.

 

This is exactly what I see as leading to a complete and utter failure and implosion of Capitalism.  People like you get so caught up in the high numbers and the low numbers.

 

Follow me here.  North American market.  Apple's Mac computers in the 90's had a total user base of about 25 million.  At the same time they were reporting that 400 million Windows PCs were out there somewhere.  I am not trying to debate what these were used for.  Just simple numbers.

 

25 million Macs.  Is that not enough for you to develop a piece of software or even hardware?  Thing is the more people that DON'T write or port their applications or hardware means one less competitor to steal away sales and even less cost to advertise your stuff.

 

In fact, in those "dark times of Apple" Microsoft was reported to be making as much, if not more, on its Office products for Mac than the 100's of millions more PCs out there.

 

In 2012 some reports were that Apple had 66 million Macs out there.  Newer reports indicate Apple at between 8-10% or more of the PC market. If Apple had 100 million users that means 1 billion Windows PCs out there.  Numbers not being accurate based on whose numbers you believe in.

 

Either way - 100 million customers is not worth developing for?  So please enlighten us on the basics of business and tell us when we should abandon a market segment.

 

Now add to that the iOS devices.  What are we at since 2007 - 200 million devices?  250?  I totally see where you are coming from.  If Apple dwindles to 5% of 1,000,000,000,000 devices they should just what, shut down the company and give the money back to their shareholders?  (Sorry, I just could not resist getting that in there - sorry Mr. Dell.)

 

I mean who the hell in their right mind would even develop for 50 billion devices when they could go after the 1 trillion market?  That is what Samsung seems to be after.  pushing the total numbers up so they are the largest holder of landfill electronics by market share.  To get there they need to produce 20 million more than last time, even if people don't want or buy them.  But hey, our market share is up right?

 

Seriously, I don't feel that many of the people that post on market share numbers or percentages fully understand basic numbers.  1 million is a really big fracking number let alone 300 million or whatever Apple's combined devices numbers would be.

 

 

 

Actually major development studios missed the Mac when it was 2%. I am a Mac developer, effectively unemployable for a few years ( as that, I moved onto Windows and other stuff), now back in Objective C full time, also as a iOS architect. Things are good now.

Quote:

 

I know you said you don't think it will happen soon, but that it will eventually.  Remember though, Apple was under 2% market share and still had plenty of developers, applications, 3rd party hardware manufacturers, and support.  Enough that they came back and built an Empire on their own ashes to be honest.

 

Sounds rational until you think about developing for Windows phone, which is 2% of the American market. Would you?

The decision to develop something on a permanent basis involves hiring permanent development staff to maintain older versions, and keep up to date with the latest across all platforms. Thats an ongoing cost, and to begin with all you know is that the Mac was then - and Windows mobile is now -  2% of the market. Other options are to outsource - which games devs did long after the windows release and only if that were successful. Getting 1% of a market , which is realistically all you can hope to achieve if you are not MicroSoft or Adobe ( that would be 10 million sales for a 1 billion seat market) is not so appealing for a 2% market. It would be 200,000 which might not be enough to pay your devs. In fact given their rarity they may be more expensive. And you won’t know ahead of time what you are going to sell.

 

iOS is ok as long as it is big in the US and Japan, two markets where people really do pay for stuff. Apple dominates the market which buys stuff, which is probably where it is going to stay. 


Edited by asdasd - 4/30/14 at 5:18am
I wanted dsadsa bit it was taken.
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I wanted dsadsa bit it was taken.
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post #51 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by wigby View Post

I never want to be an iOS user looking over the fence and seeing so many more apps and accessories available for Android just as they looked at iOS a few years ago.

I believe the massage from Apple to all of those Android people has always been: Come on in, water's fine.

The fact is, if you looked at the iOS ecosystem with envy, then it means you weren't willing to join for ideological reasons, and there's nothing Apple can do about that, short of adopting Windows and Android which is what your darling Samsung has done.

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply

"Apple should pull the plug on the iPhone."

John C. Dvorak, 2007
Reply
post #52 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post


I believe the massage from Apple to all of those Android people has always been: Come on in, water's fine.

The fact is, if you looked at the iOS ecosystem with envy, then it means you weren't willing to join for ideological reasons, and there's nothing Apple can do about that, short of adopting Windows and Android which is what your darling Samsung has done.

I'm an Apple fan but the responses are so knee-jerk pro-Apple that you cannot discern the difference between a cautionary warning (based upon Apple history) and a Fandroid comment. I don't look at the iOS ecosystem with envy because it's my ecosystem. Darling Samsung? Huh?

post #53 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by wigby View Post

I'm an Apple fan but the responses are so knee-jerk pro-Apple that you cannot discern the difference between a cautionary warning (based upon Apple history) and a Fandroid comment. I don't look at the iOS ecosystem with envy because it's my ecosystem. Darling Samsung? Huh?

Considering iOS apps can work on iPhones, iPads, and iPod touches, smart phone market share is not indicative of the entire ecosystem.

In addition Apple has never had a majority of the "smart phone" market and it's doing just fine. It's share of the cell phone market is growing.
post #54 of 61

Either Samsung undercharges or Apple overcharges- What is it?

 
Where's the new Apple TV?
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Where's the new Apple TV?
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post #55 of 61
Starting to think that these samsung articles are bs. Analyst have failed miserably trying to guess the number of iPhones sold and we are suppose to trust these numbers? They are supposedly selling all these phones but the web traffic and profit tells a different story. Didn't they just release the iphone killer a few weeks ago?
post #56 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumormill View Post

Starting to think that these samsung articles are bs. Analyst have failed miserably trying to guess the number of iPhones sold and we are suppose to trust these numbers? They are supposedly selling all these phones but the web traffic and profit tells a different story. Didn't they just release the iphone killer a few weeks ago?

Web traffic is more? I am not surprise as safari keeps reloading tabs pages resulting in 5 times more page hit for a single page.
post #57 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronJ View Post
 

 

What's Mercedes-Benz' market share?  What's Tiffany's market share?  What's Omega's market share?


What does it matter?

 

None of those companies depend on third party developers for their products.  Apple does.  If marketshare drops too low, it's the '90s all over again.

post #58 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by pazuzu View Post

Either Samsung undercharges or Apple overcharges- What is it?

If anything, it's Sammy sells cheap low margin crap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerobim08 View Post

Web traffic is more? I am not surprise as safari keeps reloading tabs pages resulting in 5 times more page hit for a single page.

Bullsh1t.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkVader View Post


What does it matter?

None of those companies depend on third party developers for their products.  Apple does.  If marketshare drops too low, it's the '90s all over again.

iOS apps can run on iPads so iPhone market share by itself under counts the entire iOS population.
post #59 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkVader View Post
 


What does it matter?

 

None of those companies depend on third party developers for their products.  Apple does.  If marketshare drops too low, it's the '90s all over again.

 

Do we HAVE TO say this EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD?!  iOS users spend more money on apps than Android users do.  The math just isn't that complicated, really.

post #60 of 61
Originally Posted by DarkVader View Post

Apple does.


No. They don’t. At all.

Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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Originally posted by Relic

...those little naked weirdos are going to get me investigated.
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post #61 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerobim08 View Post


Web traffic is more? I am not surprise as safari keeps reloading tabs pages resulting in 5 times more page hit for a single page.

 

That's pretty funny.

 

And wasn't it just last year that Research firm Strategy Analytics said that "Samsung's operating profit for its handset division stood at $5.2 billion in the second quarter, topping Apple's estimated iPhone profit of $4.6 billion. This marked the first time the Korean firm has overtaken its U.S. rival."

 

Furthermore these two companies have completely different business models and operations. For one Samsung is completely vertically integrated. They don't have an app store, but make money every time an iPhone is sold due to components and fabrication sourcing. They don't work alike, don't market alike, don't chase market share alike, don't generate revenue alike.

 

Trying to draw parallels and direct comparisons in how money is made and impacts the organization is kind of futile. Great for internet banter, but not much else.

 

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