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Apple and Samsung throw final punches as patent trial winds down

post #1 of 39
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In their second major California court case, Apple and Samsung on Tuesday presented closing arguments before a jury of eight will decide how much of the companies' respective $2.2 billion and $6.2 million damages claims will be meted out, if at all.



A herd of reporters converged on the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California in San Jose today as the two tech giants closed their cases in what could be a multi-billion dollar verdict for Apple.

Attorneys for the Cupertino, Calif.-based company were up first, with Harold McElhinny harkening back to 2007 when the original iPhone was first introduced by Apple cofounder Steve Jobs, reports CNET. He told a story of innovation that culminated in the iPhone and iPad, as well as the five patents-in-suit the company alleges Samsung copied with multiple infringing products.

"These products were created by true geniuses like Steve Jobs and the Apple inventors who testified here," McElhinny said. "They were, and are, real people who through genius and hard work have made real contributions to the way people...share information with each other."

The lawyer went on to rehash Apple's claims of 37 million infringing Samsung devices and damages in excess of $2.19 billion. He also took time to point out that Google and its Android operating system are not on trial, referring to an apparent Samsung tactic that used the Internet monolith as a shield against Apple's offense.

Apple vs Samsung


McElhinny tried to nullify Samsung's defense case that asserted Apple's patents should be ruled invalid because they were obvious, reports Re/code. Before breaking for lunch, the Apple attorney made sure to note high ranking company executives like SVP of Worldwide Marketing Phil Schiller testified in the trial, unlike Samsung's top brass from Korea.

Jurors heard statements on damages, including the nearly $2.2 billion Apple is asking in lost profits and royalties. Although Samsung feels the number should be closer to $38 million, McElhinny said any award is a win.

"Bringing this lawsuit was Apple's last choice, it's last option," McElhinny told the jury. "Apple cannot simply walk away from its inventions. We are counting on you for justice."

The statement echoes the closing remarks of Apple attorney Bill Lee, who was able to get in the final word before jurors headed off for deliberations.

Samsung Design Europe 2009 iPhone copy doc


As for Samsung, lead counsel John Quinn gave a breathless closing after his colleagues Bill Price and David Nelson left little of the allotted two hours on the clock, reports The Wall Street Journal.

"We don't think we owe Apple a nickel," Quinn said. "They'll be dancing in the streets of Cupertino if you give them $100 million."

Further, Quinn went after Apple's damages expert John Hauser, calling his conjoint survey to determine patented feature value a "sham."

Samsung's Price called Apple's argument a "made-up case" as the company does not implement features covered by asserted patent claims in its iOS device lineup.

On the topic of Google, Price said Android was brought up only to point out that the accused infringed patents are part of that operating system's core experience.

"We're not pointing the finger at Google," Price said. "We're saying they independently developed these features, and they don't infringe."

Following Tuesday's closing arguments, jurors entered deliberations and will continue the process every weekday until a verdict is reached.
post #2 of 39

I look forward to the next round of appeals. 

post #3 of 39

It won't hurt that Lord Jobs has just received the 'CNBC most influential business leader of the past 25 years', award.

 

Quote:
 McElhinny tried to nullify Samsung's defense case that asserted Apple's patents should be ruled invalid because they were obvious...

 

Classic. The most genius ideas are always 'obvious' after the fact. If it was so obvious then how come Samsung didn't do it first. Oh right, they forgot to mention that they meant it was only obvious to Apple.


Edited by AnalogJack - 4/29/14 at 5:11pm
post #4 of 39

Keeps getting good

post #5 of 39
I look forward to a massive award for Apple and I look forward to the firing of Samsung's council.

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post #6 of 39
We'd like to think that a victory here will be like a flawless victory in Mortal Kombat…



… but the reality is that it's more like the slap fight from Napoleon Dynomite since the punishment will not be enough to keep Samsung from doing what they've always done. Basically it will sting slightly for a brief moment.




OR these two fights from South Park:

Jimmy and Timmy's fight scene from "Cripple Fight" which mirrors and dubs audio from the exhaustive fight scene from They Live...

… v. Kyle and Carman's slap fight from "Cartoon Wars Part II".

Edited by SolipsismX - 4/29/14 at 5:21pm

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post #7 of 39
Of course google isn't on trial. Google, while they changed courses dramatically to adapt, copied ideas, but not features. Totally legal and actually recognizable as a different
OS. Touchwiz on the other hand is as blatant an iOS ripoff as they come. Hoping for $2 bil

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post #8 of 39
Quote:
 "They'll be dancing in the streets of Cupertino if you give them $100 million."

I just cant digest a street-dog company like Samsung is throwing mud at classy companies like Apple.

Race with A players, then the race is complete even if you lose.

Race with C players, it will become like this!  

 

 

And, I dont understand this! Really, they developed independently the copied ideas. 

Quote:
"We're not pointing the finger at Google," Price said. "We're saying they independently developed these features, and they don't infringe."
post #9 of 39
I look forward for the jury's verdict before Friday. I don't think they will need much time to award Apple the
$2 billion it deserves. Samsung is a copycat, lowdown, lying, cheating, with no morales company. They don't care about anything except themselves so they will cheat the system anyway they can including in court.
post #10 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol View Post

Of course google isn't on trial. Google, while they changed courses dramatically to adapt, copied ideas, but not features. Totally legal and actually recognizable as a different
OS. Touchwiz on the other hand is as blatant an iOS ripoff as they come. Hoping for $2 bil

Touchwhiz, especially 1.0 (and 2.0 i think) were so obviously iOS rips that I'm shocked Apple didn't get bans immediately and often based off that alone...the S1 (and some models of S2) were designed to LOOK like iPhones...not kinda sorta if you squint but they were designed to confuse the layman. Samsung even went out of their way to make apps that mimicked iOS apps...they had no goal of improvement or inspiration then...it was all copy copy copy.

 

And the sad part is they took advantage of the pure ugliness of Android pre 4.0 and used their immense marketing budget to practically destroy other more honest OEMs.

 

Even though HTC and Motorola both dropped their respective ball without Samsung's help, Samsung is making it impossible for them to re-enter.

post #11 of 39
This here is playing like Samesong is on the defensive. I hope the jury sees it with the same eyes. Please let Apple get a huge sum and whatever about the dollar cost that it is a huge PR disaster for them.
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post #12 of 39
Samsung's attorney said "they'll be dancing in the streets of Cupertino if you award them 100million." What does that mean. What a bunch of morons over on Samsung's legal team.
post #13 of 39
Nail the thief!
post #14 of 39

Scamsung's lawyers sound like real douchebags with their dumb comments. Dancing in the streets?

 

I'd love to see Scamsung get hit with a multi-Billion dollar verdict against them. I'd like to see Scamsung's team crying in the streets after the verdict.

 

The American jury needs to send a message that patents are valuable and to be protected, and that it's wrong to copy and steal and think that you can get away with it.

post #15 of 39
I like the closing statement by apples council Taft seemed to have gone unnoticed. Any award means the juryers agree that Samsung HAVE infringed patents owned by apple. The money is nice and all but really even $2bn is insignificant to either of them given their cash hoards. Although it wouldean apple could get free chips for quite a whole 1wink.gif
post #16 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric38 View Post

Samsung's attorney said "they'll be dancing in the streets of Cupertino if you award them 100million." What does that mean. What a bunch of morons over on Samsung's legal team.

 

That and the reference to "a nickel" sounds like an appeal to depression era Americans, something Abe Simpson would say.

 

Just how old are the members of the jury any way?

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post #17 of 39
If Apple wins this case, I just wish there'd be a movie that follows up. Not the movie choice for the average person, just one to mess with Samsung/Google.
post #18 of 39
The Samsung are looser and dumb council board members. The samsung council members are very bad guys.
post #19 of 39

So any guesses on the final damages award? Let's see who's closest.

 

Samsung seems to have contradicted themselves. First saying the patents are worth $38 million, then saying Apple would be "dancing" if they got $100 million. Mixed message. Is Samsung saying they're OK with damages being increased to $100 million from $38 million?

 

The jury can cut Apples award in half to make it seem like they're agreeing with some of Samsungs arguments, but still give Apple a nice chunk of money. I doubt it'll be $2 billion and I also doubt it will be small (under $100 million).

 

My guess: in the $750 million to $1 billion range.

post #20 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee View Post

So any guesses on the final damages award? Let's see who's closest.

Samsung seems to have contradicted themselves. First saying the patents are worth $38 million, then saying Apple would be "dancing" if they got $100 million. Mixed message. Is Samsung saying they're OK with damages being increased to $100 million from $38 million?

The jury can cut Apples award in half to make it seem like they're agreeing with some of Samsungs arguments, but still give Apple a nice chunk of money. I doubt it'll be $2 billion and I also doubt it will be small (under $100 million).

My guess: in the $750 million to $1 billion range.

$560 million just popped into my head.
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post #21 of 39
George Bernard Shaw wrote some thing like this

The problem with getting into a fight/muck with a pig is that the pig loves it and you end up looking like the pig and no one can tell the difference between you and the pig.

Personally I'd love to see an ad from Apple with bunch of Samsung engineers dressed up as pigs designing a crappy phone , grunting like pigs all covered in mud then the scene cuts to a pristine set showing true genius Apple design lab and a voice over saying.

"Do you really want to buy a phone designed by pigs"

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post #22 of 39
1.25 billion then into appeals. That's for the lawyers.what Apple gets who knows lol
post #23 of 39

I think it is going to be around 1.6 billion. Then probably two rounds of appeals before Samesung decides "it will just be easier, more cost effective, and less distracting to just pay the amount owed. We will do this for our customers." (you know, that kind of rhetoric.)

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post #24 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by singularity View Post

1.25 billion then into appeals. That's for the lawyers.what Apple gets who knows lol

I assume Apple keeps their lawyers on retainer so Apple may have already been paying them out regardless of a win or loss, lawsuit or no lawsuit.

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post #25 of 39

Are they allowed to award treble damages for willful infringement?  Or am I thinking of something else?

post #26 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by icoco3 View Post
 

Are they allowed to award treble damages for willful infringement?  Or am I thinking of something else?

 

Does the jury treble damages, or does the judge?

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post #27 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Eggleston View Post
 

I think it is going to be around 1.6 billion. Then probably two rounds of appeals before Samesung decides "it will just be easier, more cost effective, and less distracting to just pay the amount owed. We will do this for our customers." (you know, that kind of rhetoric.)

 

I suppose that would be a reasonable amount to expect (given the late ruling that threw a monkey wrench in this case), however so far I'm not sure what is going through the minds of these jurors. They seem to be lacking a real understanding of what patents represent.

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post #28 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 

 

I suppose that would be a reasonable amount to expect (given the late ruling that threw a monkey wrench in this case), however so far I'm not sure what is going through the minds of these jurors. They seem to be lacking a real understanding of what patents represent.

"They seem to be lacking real understanding of what patents represent".

 

Since the jurors can't communicate with the outside world, and you aren't, I assume a mind reader, then what is the point of the statement?

 

The jury is a collection of a cross section of our society. I don't expect them to be experts on patent law, nor to even have a real understanding. But I do expect them to sift through the testimony and evidence that was provided in the trial to come to a decision about whether Samsung was guilty of infringement, was willful in infringement, and what the financial mitigation for that infringement would be.

post #29 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmay View Post
 

"They seem to be lacking real understanding of what patents represent".

 

Since the jurors can't communicate with the outside world, and you aren't, I assume a mind reader, then what is the point of the statement?

 

The jury is a collection of a cross section of our society. I don't expect them to be experts on patent law, nor to even have a real understanding. But I do expect them to sift through the testimony and evidence that was provided in the trial to come to a decision about whether Samsung was guilty of infringement, was willful in infringement, and what the financial mitigation for that infringement would be.

 

That's precisely the problem. An uneducated public is a poor jury.

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post #30 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 

 

That's precisely the problem. An uneducated public is a poor jury.

What would you change? Would you have a test of potential jurists? Would you only select from a pool of patent experts?

 

That alternative to the jury is to have the Court provide opinion and relief, but if I'm not mistaken, that was not Apple's choice.

 

It would seem that the previous jury came to the (obvious in my opinion) conclusion that Samsung infringed, and they also came to a conclusion about the financial mitigation. So you expect more than that?

post #31 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Does the jury treble damages, or does the judge?
Both may be involved but the judge is the final arbiter.
http://www.ballardspahr.com/alertspublications/legalalerts/2012-06-18-fed-cir-says-trial-judge-decides-threshold-issue-of-willful-infringement.aspx
Edited by Gatorguy - 4/30/14 at 1:42pm
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post #32 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post
 

 

That's precisely the problem. An uneducated public is a poor jury.


They could have handled it through arbitration instead. Otherwise how would you select an educated jury?

post #33 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 


They could have handled it through arbitration instead. Otherwise how would you select an educated jury?

I recall that the court required Apple and Samsung representatives to meet and attempt to negotiate a settlement prior to trial. That wasn't successful.

 

I believe Apple chose a jury trial.

post #34 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmay View Post
 

I recall that the court required Apple and Samsung representatives to meet and attempt to negotiate a settlement prior to trial. That wasn't successful.

 

I believe Apple chose a jury trial.


I didn't say anything about meeting to negotiate. You may have misinterpreted what I meant by arbitration. I could have stated binding arbitration to make the point clearer. If either side has a problem with uneducated juries, their option is to have the matter decided by arbiters with some amount of real background in both patent law and technology.

post #35 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

That's precisely the problem. An uneducated public is a poor jury.

I disagree. They have no preconceived notions, nor are biased. The Apple lawyers chose these people for a reason.
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post #36 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm View Post
 


I didn't say anything about meeting to negotiate. You may have misinterpreted what I meant by arbitration. I could have stated binding arbitration to make the point clearer. If either side has a problem with uneducated juries, their option is to have the matter decided by arbiters with some amount of real background in both patent law and technology.

My apologies. I didn't read closely enough.

 

Arbitration would have been a course of action prior to a court trial, though in this case, Apple desired a trial.

post #37 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


I disagree. They have no preconceived notions, nor are biased. The Apple lawyers chose these people for a reason.

 

Make no mistake, everyone has a bias (also known as a point of view or opinion).

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post #38 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmay View Post
 

My apologies. I didn't read closely enough.

 

Arbitration would have been a course of action prior to a court trial, though in this case, Apple desired a trial.


No problem. I don't know of any other options. Either they use a jury of laymen or they arbitration where the individuals have some background in the area of contention. 

post #39 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Make no mistake, everyone has a bias (also known as a point of view or opinion).

Not on what the trial is about.
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