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IDC forecasts 'challenging' year for tablets as Apple's iPad continues to lead - Page 3

post #81 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Even after there is a 64-bit version of Android running on a consumer device with a 64-Bit ARM processor I wonder what that means for the apps. With iOS the OS, all the default apps and services on top, and a great number of App Store apps are already 64-bit natives. All other things being equal the new AArch64 ISA is better for apps built with Obj-C, but is it better for Java apps in the same way? How long will before Java and their Play apps gets updated? Will Google make the transition as smooth or will it be something disjointed the way MS did with their Windows transition to 64-bit?

Honest question Soli: Has 64-bit improved your iPhone user experience yet, and if so in what way? I haven't seen much in the way of comments about real-world differences.
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post #82 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

Even after there is a 64-bit version of Android running on a consumer device with a 64-Bit ARM processor I wonder what that means for the apps. With iOS the OS, all the default apps and services on top, and a great number of App Store apps are already 64-bit natives. All other things being equal the new AArch64 ISA is better for apps built with Obj-C, but is it better for Java apps in the same way? How long will before Java and their Play apps gets updated? Will Google make the transition as smooth or will it be something disjointed the way MS did with their Windows transition to 64-bit?

exactly. which is why we may never see 64 bit Android OS. but Chrome OS ... ah yes. many think Google's future is based on Chrome, not Android.
post #83 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Honest question Soli: Has 64-bit improved your iPhone user experience yet, and if so in what way? I haven't seen much in the way of comments about real-world differences.

you don't "see" that 64 bit power making Toch ID work so smoothly or the Camera app producing excellent pix for us photo dummies, but it's there just the same.
post #84 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post

Honest question Soli: Has 64-bit improved your iPhone user experience yet, and if so in what way? I haven't seen much in the way of comments about real-world differences.

Absolutely, but in the same a few hundred extra MHz might improve an experience or a better H.264 decoder might reduce power consumption for video playback by 10%, in that you may not notice it until it's no longer there.

I did side-by-side tests from my iPhone 5 and the 5S. Booting up the 5S was a little faster but that's only done as a baseline since you really only should be booting your phone after an update. The app launches I tried (not so much with large games) were faster but it was a difference that I wouldn't have noticed them if not for the side-by-side comparison. The areas where I saw the most performance gain was with the app closing but this can also be seen within certain apps. This is one area where the new ISA really shines for Obj-C and where you can easily perceive the difference without a side-by-side comparison. So why do you care about this? It allows other operations to take place sooner and have more resources available and uses less power.

Mike Ash explains it better than I ever could but the benefits are definitely real.

"In short, the improvements to Apple's runtime make it so that object allocation in 64-bit mode costs only 40-50% of what it does in 32-bit mode. If your app creates and destroys a lot of objects, that's a big deal."

"Apple took advantage of the transition to make some changes of their own. The biggest change is an inline retain count, which eliminates the need to perform a costly hash table lookup for retain and release operations in the common case. Since those operations are so common in most Objective-C code, this is a big win. Per-object resource cleanup flags make object deallocation quite a bit faster in certain cases. All in all, the cost of creating and destroying an object is roughly cut in half. Tagged pointers also make for a nice performance win as well as reduced memory use."

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post #85 of 99
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Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

you don't "see" that 64 bit power making Toch ID work so smoothly or the Camera app producing excellent pix for us photo dummies, but it's there just the same.

I've speculated that 64-bit was a requirement for Touch ID to work at all but I have no method to test that hypothesis or any evidence thus far.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #86 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS11 View Post

Intel already made a 64-bit kernel for Android 4.4 KitKat (Link).

As for 64-bit and Android, it's only natural progression.  Upcoming low end SoC's will support 64-bit, these include Qualcomm's Snapdragon 410 and MediaTek's MT6732.  Both of those SoCs will be using quad Cortex A53 (ARMv8 64) cores.  There is also Intel's SoFIA which will be based off of Silvermont (x86-64).  Whether or not any of these mobile devices will fully utilize 64-bit has yet to be seen, but the technology will be there, even at the bottom line.

chips do not = business strategy. there is no "natural progession" in markets manipulation. Google's agenda is based on other factors, not chips.
post #87 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

I've speculated that 64-bit was a requirement for Touch ID to work at all but I have no method to test that hypothesis or any evidence thus far.

well we know 32 bit is good enuff for Samsung's second rate version. we'll see if they can improve it with that constraint.
post #88 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

So why do you care about this? It allows other operations to take place sooner and have more resources available and uses less power.

Thanks for taking the time Soli. I couldn't think of anyone I'd trust more for a straight answer so that's why I put it to you.

I only wondered if the difference was obvious between 32 and 64-bit or more subtle. I personally had my doubts that it made a noticable difference with the most commonly used smartphone features, so I was curious if commonly used video play, productivity apps, gaming had yet gained any significant improvements over last years 32-bit platform. You've seen some 64-bit benefits to those kinda things on your iPhone and that's all I was wondering.
Edited by Gatorguy - 5/2/14 at 12:22pm
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post #89 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS11 View Post

The 64-bit kernel is already there and the hardware is there.  Now it's up to the developers.  If Google didn't care about natural progression they wouldn't have had OpenGL ES 3.0 support added to Android before iOS, and one of the largest mobile game engines (Unity) wouldn't have added OpenGL ES 3.0 support to Android, again, before iOS. 

Open GL Is about games. you can expect all platforms to routinely update to its new generations in cycle since games are big money makers for all. just like they update to the latest bluetooth and wifi standards in cycle - high end hardware first. those are cross platform standards, and yes, they "progress". but 64 bit is not, you got an apples and oranges argument. Android doesn't need 64 bit to achieve Google's business goals, except bragging rights if that matters. sure, Intel would love to sell premium 64 bit chips - that fits its business goals. but what Android OEM's want to pay extra for them and lose even more money in their race to the market bottom? Only Samsung can afford to, and just for hype vs. Apple. And with Android's dominant '"freemium" model app developers don't care either. they don't compete on the performance power of their apps.

i'll believe it when i see it.
post #90 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


The 8" and 10" iPads beat all other tablets. Just look at their OS and ecosystem for proof of that.

 

I think you need to spend some time with the Nexus 7 and Nexus 10 before you make that statement.  I have with both the iPad as well as the Nexuses and I hardly ever reach for the 10" iPad.  The iPad mini never.

post #91 of 99
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Originally Posted by os2baba View Post

I think you need to spend some time with the Nexus 7 and Nexus 10 before you make that statement.  I have with both the iPad as well as the Nexuses and I hardly ever reach for the 10" iPad.  The iPad mini never.

Nexus 7 is way too small to consider, 16:10 is worse than 4:3 for a tablet, and neither has an OS or ecosystem that makes the user experience even close to being compared to the App Store..

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #92 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost View Post
 

The App Store has 400,000 apps specifically tailored to the iPad. The Google Play Store has 1,000. There's no competition going on there; it's a slam dunk for Apple.

 

Unlike iPhone apps (using raster scaling), most Android apps use dynamic scaling and dynamic layouts.  So phone apps don't look as awful as iPhone apps do (did).  Having said that, it doesn't mean that the apps are optimized for the extra real estate.  But almost all the apps I use are - Flipboard, firefox, chrome, maps, gmail, play music, ES File Explorer, real calc plus, Type Machine, netflix, swiftkey etc.  There are of course a few that could do with a tablet version like keypass.  But on the whole, I can't say I have felt a lack of tablet optimized apps.  A couple of years ago maybe.  Not anymore.  Most apps post 4.0 are using fragments and they lend themselves to be tablet optimized rather easily.

post #93 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by os2baba View Post

Unlike iPhone apps (using raster scaling), most Android apps use dynamic scaling and dynamic layouts.  So phone apps don't look as awful as iPhone apps do (did).

iOS-based devices are better looking and use less power because Apple actually has standards and knows what displays are being used.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #94 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by os2baba View Post

I think you need to spend some time with the Nexus 7 and Nexus 10 before you make that statement.  I have with both the iPad as well as the Nexuses and I hardly ever reach for the 10" iPad.  The iPad mini never.

Obviously you only need a basic consumption device, when you need to do some real work, you'll reach for an iPad.

Signed

Enterprise.
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post #95 of 99
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Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


Obviously you only need a basic consumption device, when you need to do some real work, you'll reach for an iPad.

Signed

Enterprise.

 

That's certainly true.  I mostly use my tablets as consumption devices.  When I want to do real work, I use my PC.  With a 27" monitor, multiple windows, IBM Model M keyboard, 50 Mbps wired network, there is no substitute and the PC will beat a tablet by a mile for pretty much every task.  Which is why I'm very surprised by the number of people who use their mobile devices for e-commerce in the west.  I can understand this happening in the developing world since the phone is probably the only computing devices for many.  The only time I use my phone is when I'm not in the office and not at home.  I'm especially surprised to see people using their tablets and phones for purchases during Thanksgiving and Christmas.  A large screen and quick flipping between tabs and multiple browser windows and my keyboard are absolutely essential.  In fact, last thanksgiving I was at Best Buy and heard about an LED TV with a better configuration at Frys than the one I was getting at Best Buy.  I was in the process of checking it out and ordering it from my phone when a friend called me from home to inform me.  I told him to buy one for me since he was ordering one for himself.  I was midway through the process.  He started from scratch. He finished, before I got to it.  By the time I was checking out the cart, they were out of it.  It turned out to be a better TV and the only reason I'm looking at it every night is because my friend managed to get it for me.

 

I used my iPad mostly as a consumption device as well.  So out of curiosity, what real work do you do on your iPad?

post #96 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


Nexus 7 is way too small to consider, 16:10 is worse than 4:3 for a tablet, and neither has an OS or ecosystem that makes the user experience even close to being compared to the App Store..

 

I used to think that 10" was the perfect size for a tablet.  But I have realized with some surprise that the Nexus 7 gets used a heck of a lot more in my house than the 2 Nexus 10s I have.  I have no idea what apps you use and for your usage, you may well find the iPad indispensable, but I have to say, that I have not missed the iPad one iota.  About the only app I missed was Flipboard, but that got ported to Android ages ago.  That was the app I used the most on the iPad and is also probably amongst the most used ones on my Nexuses.  I'm a news junkie.  The Nexus 7 is surprisingly addictive.  My wife uses it for reading books as well.  But IMO, the e-ink Nook has that beat hands down.

post #97 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by os2baba View Post

I used to think that 10" was the perfect size for a tablet.  But I have realized with some surprise that the Nexus 7 gets used a heck of a lot more in my house than the 2 Nexus 10s I have.

All the "widescreen" tablets seem poor for reading. Check out the Kindle eBooks. How many of them are using a 16:9 aspect ratio? 16:10 is slightly better but not by much. Around 4:3 is more ideal for an all around table that you're doing more than watching TV shows on.

Now does that change with a 12" iPad? Perhaps because at that point, assuming the PPI stays around the same as it is now, you have enough length on the shorted. Aspect ratio needs be analyzed with each diagonal size and usage type. This is why the 11" 16:9 MBA isn't a machine I would recommend and why I think going over 30" for a desktop display needs to be wider than 16:9. On the one end of the scale there is the content that needs to be considered and the other there how our eyes are places. That said, if Apple does release a 12" iPad I think it's most likely it will be 4:3 to keep it inline with the rest of the platform to accommodate app development.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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post #98 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


All the "widescreen" tablets seem poor for reading. Check out the Kindle eBooks. How many of them are using a 16:9 aspect ratio? 16:10 is slightly better but not by much. Around 4:3 is more ideal for an all around table that you're doing more than watching TV shows on.

Now does that change with a 12" iPad? Perhaps because at that point, assuming the PPI stays around the same as it is now, you have enough length on the shorted. Aspect ratio needs be analyzed with each diagonal size and usage type. This is why the 11" 16:9 MBA isn't a machine I would recommend and why I think going over 30" for a desktop display needs to be wider than 16:9. On the one end of the scale there is the content that needs to be considered and the other there how our eyes are places. That said, if Apple does release a 12" iPad I think it's most likely it will be 4:3 to keep it inline with the rest of the platform to accommodate app development.

 

When I go home, I'll check my Nooks and see what aspect ratio they are using.  I certainly don't have a problem with the aspect ratio when  reading from the Nexus 7.  It's the LCD that I have a problem with.  I'll check out the Nook app on the Nexus 10 as well.  I never use it for reading.  It's LCD, too heavy and too big unless you are sitting on the sofa with the tablet in your lap.  I like to read lying down and holding it above your head is not sustainable. 

post #99 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by os2baba View Post

When I go home, I'll check my Nooks and see what aspect ratio they are using.

No need for that.

  • Barnes & Noblel Nook (1st Edition) and Nook Simple Touch — 600×800 = 1.33 = 4:3 aspect ratio
  • Nook Color & Nook Tablet — 600×1024 = 1.71 = 128:75 (Between 16:10 and 16:9 aspect ratios)
  • Nook HD — 900×1440 = 1.60 = 16:10 aspect ratio
  • Nook HD + — 1280×1920 = 1.50 = 3:2 (Between 4:3 and 16:10 aspect ratios)
  • Nook Glowlight — 758×1040 = 1.37 (Barely wider than 4:3 which is 1.33)

I think that's all of them.

"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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"The real haunted empire?  It's the New York Times." ~SockRolid

"There is no rule that says the best phones must have the largest screen." ~RoundaboutNow

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